Why the Air Force Picked Northrop’s Tanker

Why the Air Force Picked Northrop’s Tanker

Read all about it. Here’s the first interview with someone who actually knows why the Pentagon decided to buy the Northrop Grumman KC-45 airborne tanker.

The concept of operations that will govern how the airplane is used played a key role in driving Air Force officials to conclude that the Northrop tanker was much better suited to the military’s future. The service wants tankers to operate at a stand-off distance. It wants fighter planes and unmanned planes to be able to refuel two or three times while in the air. This allows them to take off with significantly heavier ordnance loads and to launch several strikes instead of going up once, gassing up, firing weapons and going back to base.

The greater size of the Northrop plane means it can carry more fuel, allowing it to remain aloft for longer periods and to refuel more planes. Once it empties its bladders, it can then refuel and perform reconnaissance missions using a wide array of electro-optical, infrared and other sensors for a significant period of time. In fact, the Northrop plane can stay in the air for up to 18 hours at a stretch allowing it to perform other missions as well, such as carrying a router and becoming a communications hub, though I was told this was not a requirement.

Here are some of the technical factors that led the Air Force to pick the Northrop plane. First, the Northrop tanker’s boom pumps fuel at a significantly faster rate than would the Boeing 767 tanker. The faster refueling speed puts the lie to the claim by Rep. Norm Dicks (D-Wash.) that the Boeing plane will consume $35 billion less in fuel than their plane, our source said. The study Dicks cited — which earned a “D” in quality of analysis from our source — simply took the difference in the amount of fuel an equal number of Boeing and Northrop tankers would consumer and extrapolated it. The study, by a Boeing consultant, also assumed the fuel consumption of a regular 767, not the Boeing tanker. It did not take into account the greater fuel efficiency of the newer Northrop plane, according to our source. Also, the Northrop tanker’s bigger size and ability to refuel at faster speeds means fewer Northrop planes would be deployed.

Second, the Northrop tanker’s boom has a significantly larger boom envelope than does the Boeing plane. This gives pilots a much greater safety margin when hooking up at the flying gas pump. It also, our source says, means they can refuel a wider range of aircraft, including unmanned fliers.

The fact that several allies, including Australia, have bought or committed to buy very similar planes means the US has an array of compatible tankers deployed around the world which it can draw on in a crisis, our source said. It also means that NATO and other allies can use common training techniques for their pilots, reducing costs and ensuring interoperability.

Boil all of this down and what you get is a tanker that, our source said, that can support fifth generation fighter aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 and their concepts of operations, our source said. It also means the US would get a plane that is more flexible, more efficient and can serve as the hub for enormously complex and ambitious operations involving a wide array of fighters, sensor aircraft – both manned and unmanned – operating over enormous distances.

“You are taking an airplane [the KC-135] that could only do one mission one time and now you are doing three missions,” our source said.

One thing several sources had cited earlier as an important factor — that the Northrop tanker could refuel itself — turns out to have been a requirement that both builders met. But the faster refueling speed of the Northrop tanker means those planes can refuel each other more efficiently.

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This doesn’t really read like an interview. A little bit more info on who is saying what would be appretiated.

Why not let Norm Dicks make all of our defense purchases because he obviously knows what the Air Force nees more then the Air Force itself.

So, the AF wrote an RFP for what they thought they wanted. But NG came in with a bigger plane, and the AF said, “Wow. Look at all the things we can do with THIS plane!” The AF picked what they NOW wanted, which was not truly the scope of the original RFP. Total cost and MilCon was not a given as much weight because that might have prevented them from getting what they wanted. IOW, they started wanted a Ford Escape Hybrid to replace their Chevy S-10 Blazer, but saw an Escallade drive by and wanted that instead.

OK, maybe so. But you are missing a key point, they can buy the “Escalade” for the same price as the “Escape”.

Boeing has 3 versions in its 767 Family. The
-200,-300 and the -400, Boeing could have offered it -400 which is larger than the A330-200 which is the KC-45. No Boeing offered the smaller -200 aircraft because that is what Boeing Said the Air Force will take from them. The Japanese and Italian Tanker are based on the -200 design and these two countries help build the airframe. The Air Force made a decision which was contrary to Boeings decision on a tanker which proves the Air Force knows what it needed not Boeing or Norm Dicks.

Even if you accept Boeing’s assertion that the AF wanted ‘KC-135 size’ (which I don’t) Boeing’s minions are still in the position of defending a position that gives the military less value for their money. BTW: the award is for UP TO 179 planes. Any bets the AF won’t buy fewer KC-45s to still have more capability than the KC-767 package would offer?

seems everyone is missing the mission capability aspect of this entire discussion. the warfighter needs full mission capability all the time in order to carry out its mission. Do you know how tough a strangle-hold having another country providing that support? They have no alegiance to America and can stop production or set the price and flow of key assets to their own internation agenda…and there would be NOTHING anyone in the USA could do about it; but talk of course! meanwhile one of the “friends of france” could operate without our ability to put BOT at the behest of the combatant commanders. Good Grief! Why do we keep getting this wrong.

They have no alegiance to America and can stop production or set the price and flow of key assets to their own internation agenda…and there would be NOTHING anyone in the USA could do about it-

That would never happen, you think EADS would do something stupid like that? They would never be able to to partner on a major defense project again, it would be suicide. EADS is not just a “french company” it is a conglomorate of France, Germany, and the UK. You need to stop bying into all the “French are out to get us” propoganda, jeez.

I am not sure if the NG offering is cheaper per plane. Even so, an Escalade will not fit in my garage without costly construction costs. So it is not really cheaper. You cannot ignore MilCon, unless the AF is willing to buy less planes.

The whole thing is pretty simple, it comes down to the Air Force criteria for the plane. Either the Air Force ignored their stated criteria or they weren’t even sure at the start what they wanted. Neither of those are acceptable.

The Northrop plane may very well be the better of the two. It may even fit better with the long term mission goals of the Air Force, but by not being chosen on the pre-established criteria it is an unfair decision with too high a cost. The Air Force is acting like someone who goes shopping for a new pickup, they came to the dealer to buy an F-150 but look over there now they want the full cab F-350.

A question I would pose with all the statement on savings is this, the Northrop plane has admitted to needing a large hanger, it requires a waiver on normal procedures for when the planes are parked keeping them closer than normal too allow them to fit in designated spaces, due to the increased weight and size they will require longer runways for take off… how does the reduced range of these planes resulting from a reduced number of airbases being able to house them affect there operation cost?

“I am not sure if the NG offering is cheaper per plane. Even so, an Escalade will not fit in my garage without costly construction costs.”

Most of the tanker won’t have a “garage”. They are just parked on apron. Air Force can use C-17 hangars. Forget the apron strength issue. Both tankers will put nearly the same pressure on tarmac.

How expensive get spare parts then your car is out of production for years? B767 production will be closed without the tanker deal.

You won’t get better equipment for your car. At Farnborough two more fuel efficient engines were offered for A330, PW4000-100 Advantage70 and GEnX (claimed to be 13 % more fuel efficient?).

Don’t mix up efficiencies with pure consumption. A study ordered by Boeing claims a B767-200ER guzzles 24 % less fuel than A330-200 for assumption both planes operate at maximum takeoff weight. At MTOW a A330-200 carries 33 % more passengers.

Many reference the “requirements” but fail to mention the fact that Boeing bought the original requirements through bribes during the first tanker lease scandal. Boeing paid for the exact specification of their proposed solution and the warfighter was not invited to the party. I can’t blame Boeing for being angry after paying all that bribe money and getting nothing for it.

After seeing the degree to which Boeing will lie, cheat and bribe to stay afloat, I worry that we have their aircraft and rockets overhead all the time. How many lies and bribes got them certified? While it may be a shock for the ex-Boeing workers to move to Mobile, Alabama, it will be a pleasant change for them to work for NGC, a company with ethics.

Most people are focusing on which is the better airframe and not the real issue. The AF set down a list of requirements, the field is supposed to be level. Each company submitted what they felt would give them the best chance at getting the contract. Both company’s have “experts” and lobbiest to push their airframe.

The problem is that the AF did not stick to the criteria they developed, the field either by accedent or a desire to get the better airframe got tilted and thats unacceptable.

Having worked on a source selection team, things need to be transparent and equal, if things change then they need to change for both sides, if your in discusions with one team you need to hold discussions with the other side also. It’s just a matter of following the rules, I’m sure the contracting team had nothing but the best intentions and did not do anything because of bribes or kick backs or anything like that.

They just lost focus. No matter who won the competion the other side was going to protest. The problem is that anyone can protest for any reason, and in this case Boeing did not get a fair chance, so now we start over.

A question I would pose with all the statement on savings is this, the Northrop plane has admitted to needing a large hanger, it requires a waiver on normal procedures for when the planes are parked keeping them closer than normal too allow them to fit in designated spaces, due to the increased weight and size they will require longer runways for take off… how does the reduced range of these planes resulting from a reduced number of airbases being able to house them affect there operation cost?

JN, It’s a popular misconception that the heavier plane needs a longer runway to operate from. In this case, when the RAF was shopping for it’s tanker, they found the KC-767 needed more runway- not to takeoff, but to safely stop on an aborted takeoff at max TO weight. Yeah, it’s a once in a lifetime need, but that’s the standard for airfield operating performance.

Let’s examine some facts and leave fiction out of this debate:

Fuel efficiency: The A330 is 6% more fuel efficient than the 767, both in the commercial world and according to AF findings. Hence the reason the A330 shut out the 767 in the commercial world. Does anyone honestly believe a for-profit airline would buy a fleet of A330s if they we’re “24% less fuel efficient” than a 767? Com’on - Boeing spin with a Boeing-paid fuel efficiency study in hand. A study most analysts have completely discredited.

Milcon/hangars: Neither the Boeing or NG tankers will fit in existing tanker hangars - period.

Runways: At full load, the 767 needs at least 8,000 feet (which Boeing folks have stated) whereas the A330/KC-45 can get out of a 7,000 foot runway at full load. BTW, the KC-45’s full load includes an extra 45,000 pounds of fuel. Gee, wouldn’t it be nice if a TANKER carried as much fuel as humanly possible to execute a TANKING mission?

Range: Yes, the A330/KC-45 can fly farther, stay in a refueling orbit longer and deliver more fuel.

Foreign production/support: Yes, the A330 is a decades newer design and parts are plentiful, whereas the 767 is dead. And for posters “Chris” and “Walker” on this page – who comment about “France” or a “foreign company” stopping production of airframes if they disagree w/ U.S. policy - I say, PLEASE… Did you boys know that the current KC-135 tanker, built by Boeing, have French engines? That’s right you scholars – four engines on each plane in fact. I can’t recall any press about France withholding support on KC-135 engines? From what I’ve read, the A330 tankers will be built in the U.S. and not Europe. Hunh.

Runway/ramp strength: Please. Ever seen a C-17 sitting next to an A330? Last year at the PAS they parked next to each other. Given size and weight, I suspect wherever you can put a C-17 you can put an A330/KC-45…

Fair competition: To say that the playing field was “skewed” to favor NG/EADS is a ridiculous statement in and of itself. Boeing was always favored to win - even by ten out of ten analysts just weeks prior to the contract announcement. The AF threw down a set of requirements and it was up to each company to bring their best game. BA was arrogant as usual, tried to push the 767 again, and lost. End of story. Considering the failed Boeing lease deal - Boeing is now receiving a THIRD chance to win. I guess BA will continue to stall this program (with no regard for the warfighter) and forcing re-competes until they win.

For all who wanted/expected the Patriots to win the superbowl, I suggest we lobby Congress to keep holding the superbowl over and over until the Patriots win. Because that’s the American spirit of competition – right?

http://www.army-technology.com/news/news5213.html

Walker and others keep harping on the KC-45 being French built. Wake up. The plane will be assembled in Mobile, Alabama, by Northop Grumman - a major US defense manufacturer. If the French decide to end its alliances with US (which will not happen - ever) Northrop will keep making these planes. If this extremely stupid Boeing protectionism argument ever gained traction it would fly in the face of our international realities. Most everything made in the US has some foreign component. Its more economical. If any critical foreign component is ever denied us in times of crisis, we can change that in a milisecond. Why don’t the Boeing hired pundits go interview the Japan and Italian airforces about Boeings tanker production reliability or capabilities - or the Arabian countries about the dreamliner production schedules. Boeing is fat cat that has lived off bribery and needs its company overhauled to be competitive - not protected by fools and cronies.

For the “I hate France” crowd, newsflash; we now live in a “flat” world and all of our economies are dependent on each other. France would be slitting its own throat to try and cut off spares and support for the tanker.

Not to even mention the fact that the aircraft was to be made in the United States.

The big loser in this all is national defense. Even if the next source selection is run completely 100% above boards and Boeing again loses, we all know they and their bought and paid for puppets in Congress will stall the fielding of this critical capability again and again until they get their own way.

Under other circumstances, Boeing would have been banned from this competition, due to it’s actions in the recent past. I believe that flawed or not, the decision to go with the 330 was justified.

(If for no other reason than to make it clear to Boeing that it’s not the only game in town.)

I’ve seen contracts let for some very stupid reasons. Lower cost (primary)and the resulting reduced quality (minor consideration) is a common case.

I’ve also observed intentional directed disposal of spares to deliberately shorten the service life of systems, in order to help justify high cost R&D programs for replacement systems. (The R&D cost comes out of someone elses budget.)

This “source” doesn’t know what it is talking about. The concept of operations it describes doesn’t match up with the solicitation documents. Not the Operational Requirements Document (ORD), not the Initial Capabilities Document (ICD), not the System Requirements Document (SRD)…

What good is a higher fuel transfer rate when the VAST MAJORITY of the aircraft it will be refueling can’t recieve fuel at more than 900 gal/min & even the (IIRC) 4 platforms which can can’t do so for a significant portion of refueling time due to having to slow fuel transfer to maintain balance & when switching between receiver aircraft tanks.

Conklin & de Decker is a well respected INDEPENDENT company that does aviation consulting & analysis. It was contracted by Boeing to analyze the additional fuel consumption and the resulting extra cost incurred by a fleet of 179 Airbus 330-200 when compared with the Boeing 767-200ER where both fly similar commercial mission profiles, both fly 750 hours per year over a 40 year service life and both are operated at or near their maximum take-off gross weight. Aside from being an over simplified analysis which does not quite model how the KC-767AT &/or KC-30 would actually operate, the basics of the analysis are correct. The A330-200/KC-30 DOES burn more fuel per hour than the 767-200ER/KC-767AT (even when crrying the same load much less a greater one) & over the life of the KC-X, that difference DOES add up to BILLIONS of dollars. And unlike commercial airliners,
tankers do not earn money for what they carry in order to offset the higher operating costs.

tanker_t,

Even the Italian & Japanese KC-767A can take-off at MTOW from a 7700′ runway. The KC-767AT has more powerful engines & higher lift/load flaps. PLUS even with a full load of fuel neither the KC-767AT nor the KC-30 will be at MTOW…

BS_Buster hits the six hole. Boeing should be ashamed and take their lumps. The new leadership now at the helm of the USAF due to the nuclear related mis-steps may also be there for the lack of attention-to-detail over the greedy transgressions of their contracting officers…

Pfcem, the A330 can also do a 7700 ft takeoff at their MTOW which is greater than the KC767. Also Conklin & Decker were paid bu Boeing to make a one side study in Boeing favor. Why, they wanted the money simple as that. Would you tell the company that paid you that the other plane was better, no You tell them what they wanted you to say. Even Norm Dicks Boeings biggest cry baby admitted that the study was funded by Boeing.

So who do you trust?

Pfcem, you must live in a very simple world, so let’s go over it in real simple terms. A Volkswagen gets better gas MILEAGE than a Greyhound Bus, Agree? A Volkswagen can only carry 4 people, A Bus a hundred or so. The bus is far me EFFICIENT than a Volkswagen at carrying people. So get over it, Boeing loses again!

EagleHauler,

BS_Buster doesn’t know what he is talking about.

Boeing did not buy the original requirements, the 767 was/is simply SO much closer to the original requirements than anything else available. The USAF CLEARLY saw & CLEARLY stated that. Don’t confuse what the USAF did to try to get the lease deal done ASAP with anything Boeing did - which was what every private company does, try to get the customer what it wants & make a profit from doing so. The lease price was a fair price (& a sweat deel for the USAF) but that was not good enough for some who demanded the best possible price even if it meant any profit Boeing made was lost because it had to pay out to other 767 customers the difference between that the USAF paid & what the other customers paid.

EADS (airbus) is the company that has cheated & bribed to stay afloat.

***

Oldest391,

The point is that the KC-767AT doesn’t need 8,000′ to take off. With more powerful engines & greater lift flaps it can do BETTER than the 7,700′ the KC-767AT can do. PLUS with 202,000 lbs of fuel the KC-767AT will not be at MTOW. ;)

The 8,000 feet number ignorant people like tanker_t like to quote is NOTHING MORE than the requirement the USAF had for the tanker lease & a number often quoted during that time for the KC-767 (the version proposed for the lease being essentially the same as the one for Italy) even though it could do slightly better.

I know the truth hurts but the A330-200/KC-30 DOES burn more fuel per hour than the 767-200ER/KC-767AT (even when crrying the same load much less a greater one) & over the life of the KC-X, that difference DOES add up to BILLIONS of dollars - the only “question” is how many BILLIONS. As I said, the basics of the analysis are correct but it was an over simplified analysis which does not quite model how the KC-767AT &/or KC-30 would actually operate. So while it did correctly conclude that the A330-200/KC-30 burns more fuel resulting in higher cost over the life of the aircraft, it is doubtful the actual numbers it calculated are correct. To get a more accurate number would require a MUCH more complicated analysis.

Like I said Conklin & de Decker is a well respected INDEPENDENT company. Boeing contracted them to do the analysis becasue it wanted to know how much more expensive the fuel costs of the A330-200/KC-30 would be in the theoretical life of the KC-X. That theA330-200/KC-30 burns more fuel resulting in higher costs are unquestionable.

***

BS_Buster,

You are the one living in a simple world. Try using a more accurate analogy. Using an automotive theme…

A 5-passenger mid-sized sedan gets better gas mileage than a 6-passenger large sedan. It gets better gas mileage PER PASSSENGER with 1 passenger, with 2 passengers, with 3 passengers, with 4 passengers & with 5 passengers. While the 6-passenger large sedan may get better gas mileage PER PASSSENGER when it carries 6 passengers than the 5-passenger mid-sized sedan gets when it carries 5 passengers the VAST majority of the time they only carry 3-4 passengers.

BUT the real problem with your bogus theory is that tankers do not operate as a single aircraft. The total number of tankers supporting an operational theater could be over 100 & the number of booms in the air is often of greater importance than how much fuel each tanker can carry/transfer. We don’t even utilize the full capacity of the KC-135 most of the time. PLUS since you can operate a greater number of KC-767AT at each airfield & at airfields that can not operate the KC-30 at all or only at reduced take-off weight, for a given number of booms needed to support an operational theater, not only does each KC-767AT burn less fuel every hour, as a whole, a KC-767AT fleet would fly fewer hours due to flying lesser distances because of having more tankers closer to the refueling points than a fleet of KC-30.

Dear pfcem,

the study by Conklin & de Decker is obscure. The 24 % are just taken out of an older study for both aircrafts operating near maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) by the same company for the same company. This study is concealed.

Since January 2007 no B767 was ordered by an passenger airline. In 2008 no 767 was ordered at all. During Farnborough airshow 2 new more fuel efficient engines PW4000-100 Advantage70 and GEnX were offered for A330. For commercial airlines B767 is not as fuel efficient as A330.

Air Force rated the KC-45 to be more efficient than KC-767. GAO rejected Boeing’s objections on that point.

“PLUS since you can operate a greater number of KC-767AT at each airfield & at airfields that can not operate the KC-30 at all or only at reduced take-off weight, …”

And at all these tiny little airfields you got amazing fuel depots?

Try to name one little airfield with a fuel depot sufficient for tanker operations where a A330 can’t operate from but a B767 can.

A330 takeoff with more load from any given runway length than B767. Aircraft Load Ratings (ALR) for both planes are nearly identical.

MHalblaub,

Have you even read what I posted? “over simplified analysis which does not quite model how the KC-767AT &/or KC-30 would actually operate”

Commercial airlines are not tankers. Don’t confuse commercial PER PASSENGER cost/efficiency with aircraft fuel cost/efficiency. ESPECIALLY given the realities of hoe much fuel & cargo tanker ACTUALLY carry most of the time. ;) And do not confuse the commercial airline market with USAF tanker operations.

There is no question that the A330-200/KC-30 DOES burn more fuel per hour than the 767-200ER/KC-767AT (even when carrying the same load much less a greater one) & over the life of the KC-X, that difference DOES add up to BILLIONS of dollars. The only question is how many BILLIONS of dollars more it adds up to.

The PW4000-100 Advantage70 could be fitted to 767s…

You need to read the GAO report again. And keep in mind just how limited the GAO is on what it can & can not sustain a protest on. Not sustaining on a particulart point IS NOT the same as rejecting said point. ;)

Tanker operations airfields are not little & being tanker operations airfields they have fuel depot sufficient for tanker operations (otherwise they would not be tanker operations airfields). BUT not all tanker operations airfields are HUGE & not all can support aircraft as large &/or as heavy as the KC-30.

BOEING 767-300ER (MTOW = KC-767AT)
Flexible Pavement ACN
Category A: 51.9
Category B: 57.4
Category C: 70.6
Category D: 92.1
Rigid Pavement ACN
Category A: 46.8
Category B: 56.3
Category C: 66.9
Category D: 76.2

AIRBUS A330-200
Flexible Pavement ACN
Category A: 61.5
Category B: 66.7
Category C: 77.7
Category D: 105.1
Rigid Pavement ACN
Category A: 52.2
Category B: 61.1
Category C: 72.4
Category D: 83.6

The KC-30 can only carry more payload (fuel or otherwise) from airfields which can support it with a take-off weight of ~450,000 lbs (& do not claim to know the exact figure) or more, anything less than that & the KC-767AT can carry MORE.

pfcem, I’m going to hand you a gift of sorts because I really do believe a split buy would be an optimal combat, life-cycle (vs. KC-Y and Z), and jobs/competition solution.

http://www.leeham.net/filelib/BoeingAFABrief.pdf

This briefing graphically depicts some of what you continue to say about ramp space on the ground. It is exaggerated, to be sure, but you could certainly make an argument for having a mix of KC-767s at some airfields and KC-45As at others depending on airfield size and distance from the battlefield.

I would then argue to use the KC-45A and KC-10s to aerial refuel the KC-767s closer to the fight to save fuel on the ground for fighter and other aircraft take-off fuel.

Now that I handed you a gift, I’ll take some of it back lest you claim it makes the case for a pure KC-767 buy.

Looking at the slide where it depicts a 1800′ long and 1050′ wide ramp, it shows 27 KC-767s fitting vs. just 14 KC-45A. Well for starters, that’s just dumb because even the picture shows another row of KC-45A would fit by simply hanging the tail over the edge of the concrete.

So now with 27 KC-767 and 21 KC-45A. lets say you only have 1/3 in the air every 8 hours due to crew rest and maintenance. That means either 9 KC-767s or 7 KC-45A are flying at any given time. That means 1,818,000 lbs of fuel for the nine 767s vs. 1,715,000 lbs of take-off fuel for the seven 45As. Not much difference right?

Wait, the nine 767 aircraft will burn 12,000 lbs/hr for the 8 hour shift or 96,000 lbs per aircraft which is 8,640,000 lbs for all 9 aircraft over the 8 hour shift.

The KC-45A with 2 fewer aircraft will burn just 8,400,000 lbs of fuel over 8 hours with 7 aircraft each burning 15,000 lbs/hour.

SOooo, it seems the seven 45As will retain 240,000 lbs of fuel (8,640,00-8,400,000)that the nine 767s would burn…thus freeing an additional 240,000 lbs of fuel to go to refueled aircraft.

Arne’t numbers fun? Point is, both companies can manipulate numbers all day long. Why not manipulate numbers in a way to show that we can buy both aircraft and benefit from the strengths of each…..

Correction in my hurried math above. It should have been 864,000 - 840,000 = 24,000 lbs difference….not 240,000 lbs.

It still comes out as less fuel consumed by fewer KC-45A using questionably high fuel burn rates for that aircraft and questionably low ones for the KC-767.

It also may indicate a capability to support the same forward mission with fewer KC-45s at some airfields to free others to ferry fuel from farther away to avoid running out.

A couple of key points have been missed in comparing the two Tankers.

- The KC-45 is built and is flying. The major tasks are to integrate the US military avionics and the boom - both are non-developmental items.

The proposed 767 version has never flown. It is a combination of a 767-200; 767-300; 767-400 with military avionics and a new boom.

- The KC-45 Boom has been built and is now in flight test. The proposed Boeing boom is a new design, has not been built, and no where close to testing

- The MILCON argument is disingenuous. Current Hangers (Nose Docks) were built to accomodate KC-135s and B-52s. Neither the 767 or KC-45 can fit. However, truth be know, the majority of routine maintenance is performed on the flight line - not in Hangers.

- Parking: Boeing’s counter argument uses peacetime safety critieria in a wartime environment. The USAF used the classified criteria for A/C parking during evaulation. Therfore, it found no major discrepancies between the number of 767 and KC-45 that can park on the same ramp

- Runways: Both are Heavyweight aircraft (E class) - therefore, both must use the same length, width runways to operate on. So, the real operationally relevant question is how much fuel can each take-off with - the KC-45 wins this contest.

- Boeing showed its arrogance to the USAF by refusing to provide the cost data to justify its price per plane - on the position that it was commerically properitary. The USAF had to estimate the basis of Boeing’s cost proposal. Northrop fully substantiated it costs per plane. If you were managing this program, which contractor would you want to deal with - one who is straight forward and factual or one that says “Trust me, but I can show you the proof.”

So, if you were a USAF decision maker - what would you pick - a plane and a boom that is flying, has demonstrated test data, factual pricing or a PROMISE from Boeing.

I wouldn’t trust Boeing period. On a project where I worked with them, they made up numbers, lied, and demonstrated a general disinterest in doing a proper job. These weren’t airplane builders, but Boeing the company did a poor job of engineering and seemed only to be interested in generating billable hours.

pfcem:
Commercial airlines are not tankers. Don’t confuse commercial PER PASSENGER cost/efficiency with aircraft fuel cost/efficiency. ESPECIALLY given the realities of hoe much fuel & cargo tanker ACTUALLY carry most of the time. ;) And do not confuse the commercial airline market with USAF tanker operations.

So the “Conklin & de Decker” study can’t be applied to tankers?
Try to provide numbers about what “tanker ACTUALLY carry most of the time”.

pfcem:
The PW4000-100 Advantage70 could be fitted to 767s…

Did Pratt & Whitney or General Electric offered a new engine for B767?

pfcem:
AIRBUS A330-200
Flexible Pavement ACN
Category A: 61.5
Category B: 66.7

My sources:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/International/Technical/Pavement/Downloads/DEC_B1.pdf
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/International/Technical/Pavement/Downloads/DEC_A.pdf
(A330-200 (Configuration 2))
Both planes nearly need the same bearing modulus or subgrade bearing strength.

Cole,

Yes you COULD make an argumanet for a split by but you would look like a fool doing so.

The reason being is that the KC-767AT trumps the KC-30 as a medium intra-theater tanker refueling intra-theater operations due to Maximum On Ground (MOG) & other basing limitations issues AND the KC-10 (or new equivalent - as in KC-Y) trumps the KC-30 as a large inter-theater tanker refueling inter-theater operations due to (despite its smaller size) 110,000 lb greater fuel capacity.

Quite simply the operational limitations of the KC-30’s size outweigh the potential benefits of its size. ESPECIALLY when you realize the fact that the KC-767AT is more than capable enough to meet the USAF’s needs/requirements for a medium intra-theater tanker AND that the majority of the time the KC-30’s additional capacity will not even be utilized.

Nice to know that by simply ignoring the rules you can fit more KC-30 at some bases than you can by following the rules. And what do you do if the parking ramp area is say 1500′ x 1000′? Note the different wingtip clearance difference, the IFARA unrealistically used 25′ for all…

The problem with your math is that 7 KC-30 can’t do the same job as 9 KC-767AT, those two extra booms will refuel notably more aircraft in the same amount of time &/or take significantly less time refueling the same number of aircraft. Note that the VAST MAJORITY of aircraft can’t receive fuel at 1,200 gal/min & even those that can, can’t during the entire refueling process. And of course the majority of the time neither the KC-767AT nor the KC-30 would tranfser the maximum amount of fuel they possibly could.

LOOK- All the arguements are basically trumpted. Despite winning the contract, and the Boeing competition being loudly applauded in both Japan and Italy (sarcasm)- Italy’s tanker is 3 years late, Japans can’t fly yet. Boeings offering is going to win because the decision is now in the hands of the political aviation experts (more sarcasm). Lets see who now will get stock options or employment at Boeing this time.

Radarnav,

No, the US spec KC-30 is not built and is flying (the 1st airframe has been assembled but has not yet been configured as a tanker). While the Australian A330 MRTT is closer to the US spec KC-30 than the Italian or Japanese KC-767s are to the US spec KC-767AT NEITHER are the US spec KC-X offers.

MILCON is not just hangers…AND as far as hangers go, the KC-767AT WILL fit in any hanger that can accommodate the KC-10 or C-17 & the only dimention which could prevent the KC-767AT from using some (but not all) B-52/KC-135 hangers is the height of the tail.

The Air Force had complimented Boeing for the “unprecedented” level of cost information it had supplied in the KC-X competition, then turned around & instead treated the company’s airframe cost/price information as if it were a military-defense product.

one more negative comment if I may. Forget the dream of a split contract. This will double the cost the Air force pays logisticaly accross the board. This is going to be an all or nothing.

I happen to know that pfcem is a Boeing mole that goes on these message boards to spue the company’s own baseless propaganda. pay no attention to him

You can’t take someone serious when they are on the company’s payroll.

MHalblaub,

The Conklin & de Decker study used a hypothitical “typical” flight profile & average of 750 hours per year for 40 years. That makes the mathematics MUCH simpler but real world operations don’t always follow a predicted/intended average…So while the fuel cost difference is unlikely to actually be ~$30 billion it may very well not be THAT far off.

Average fuel offload per sortie.
Operation Desert Storm: 47,500 lbs
Operation Allied Force: 48,700 lbs
Operation Enduring Freedom: 75,400 lbs
Operation Iraqi Freedom: 60,800 lbs

Some commercial 767 airliner have enginse that are physically larger then the PW4000-100 Advantage70 so fitting them to a 767 would be no problem if desired.

Those graphs are confusing you, The A330-200 & 767-300ER are NOT as close as you think.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/International/Technical/Pavement/Downloads/ALR_Table_e.pdf

…the difference becomes more appearant when using a more modern system…

http://www.eddh.de/x-files/dl_files/acn-tables.pdf

What is a typical aerial refueling profile…hours flown per sortie, distance flown from base, number of aircraft refueled, etc., if not classified?

Reason I ask is your average fuel offload per sortie figures form past conflicts seems to indicate:

A) We have more tankers than we need, or
B) Our tankers do not stay up long enough

But what we have done in the past becomes irrelevant when you add the new KC-X capability to top off other refuelers prior to returning to base. That new capability should radically change how tankers operate. More ferrying of fuel to other tankers on station should occur. More ferrying of fuel should result to C-17s that land at even smaller airfields to offload fuel to ground armor, F-35B and helicopters/V-22.

Past stats don’t indicate future potential or advantages for larger aircraft…and you still have the air bridge requirement, and greater distances of the Pacific theater to consider.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/northrop-grumman-kc-45-tanker-boom/story.aspx?guid=%7BF4DFF9E1-BCFA-47DF-A83B-6D8D7F7D0A9B%7D&dist=hppr

Northrop Grumman KC-45 Tanker Boom Successfully Completes In-flight Contact With AWACS Aircraft

Big new tankers
They fly and fuel today
Not mere drawings

My, my. No wonder the AF acquisition process has been taken over by OSD if the confusion and backbiting relfected here are indicators of source selection issues. Mr. Young isn’t about to give the AF the right to make this decision and no matter what the outcome, if prior to 20 Jan 09 or so, it will be reviewed by the Obama administration because it’s about jobs at home. Keep smiling all you Boeing and EADS moles.

pfcem,

Your Conklin & de Decker “study” just uses 24 % without any further explanation. This percentage is Boeing sent! The rest of the study is also nonsense. Both aircrafts operate at hight takeoff weights (TOW). Therefore the Airbus will take up about 30 % more PAX, cargo or fuel. The whole study ignores this fact. You can do 30 % more and pay for that 24 % more. What a bad deal!

pfcem:
“Average fuel offload per sortie.”

This single value says nothing.

First you have to know the average load at takeoff. Air Force usually don’t stress its retirees with fuel loads up to MTOW.

Next the distance to station.

After that loiter time.

The last number I really miss is the remaining fuel back at base.

Are your numbers just for KC-135? Please try to provide some for KC-10. Nearly the whole KC-10 fleet was involved. I doubt therefore that a big tanker was unnecessary.

pfcem:
“Some commercial 767 airliner have enginse that are physically larger then the PW4000-100 Advantage70 so fitting them to a 767 would be no problem if desired.”

B767 engines:
CF6-80C2B7F: fan diameter 93 in
PW4062: fan diameter 94 in
RB211-524H: fan diameter 86 in

PW4170: fan diameter 100 in
GEnX: fan diameter 105 in

pfcem:
“Those graphs are confusing you, The A330-200 & 767-300ER are NOT as close as you think.”

ALR is between 3 % and 10 % higher for A330-200 compared to B767-300ER
ACN is between 13 % and 24 % higher.

pfcem:
“…the difference becomes more appearant when using a more modern system…”

Just like using A330 or B767?

@all:
Something to read.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-horner23-2008jul23,0,1351025.story

Good link MHalblaub,
I think Charles Horner would know what the Air Force needs more then Boeing employee pfcem.

Another interesting read:

The $40 billion contract was initially awarded to Northrop in February. It was reopened earlier this month after the U.S. Government Accountability Office backed a protest from Boeing that claimed the Air Force’s bidding process was sloppy, finding fault especially with the way it communicated to competitors what they wanted.
But the Air Force is nonetheless satisfied with the Northrop-Airbus offer, and industry insiders are expecting the Pentagon’s revised proposal request to again favor the characteristics offered by the Airbus plane — to the chagrin of Boeing.
“They’re happy with the selection criteria, and they will make that very clear in the new proposal, and that will [upset] Boeing because they missed what the Air Force wanted,” said a former Air Force official familiar with the tanker program, who declined to be named because he’s not authorized to speak on its behalf.
The Air Force said it liked the larger aircraft - a converted A330 - around which Northrop-Airbus based its offer. But Boeing’s offer, built on a 767, was widely seen as a way for the company to salvage a program that’s begun to wind down, the former official said.
Boeing may try again with 777
Some industry experts expect Boeing to now offer up its larger 777 model, something the aircraft maker has so far declined to comment on. It’s possible the company won’t offer the model, however, because it carries a bigger price tag due to its popularity among commercial aircraft operators.
In terms of lifecycle costs, the 767 offer is on par with the A330, though the Air Force may extend its definition of lifecycle to 40 years from 25, which could help Boeing’s position.
“We continue to believe that the KC-767 is the right tanker for the Air Force mission, but we need to wait and see what the amended request for proposal says,” said a Boeing spokesperson.
“It appears the Pentagon’s default process is to fix the process and then award the contract to Northrop Grumman again,” said Loren Thomson at the Lexington Institute, a Washington D.C. think tank.
Backing him, J.P. Morgan analyst Joseph Nadol, fresh from the Farnborough Air Show last week in Britain, said executives at both companies appear to have doubts that Boeing’s KC-767 can clinch the contract.
“It appears more and more likely to us that [Northrop] will ultimately retain the tanker program after a re-bid,” Nadol wrote in a Monday note to investors.
The GAO ruling in favor of Boeing was a slap in the face for the Air Force, which had said repeatedly that the tanker procurement process had been done by the book. Now the Office of the Secretary of Defense will manage the bid, aiming to make a decision by the end of the year.
Though the contract would represent only about 3% of Boeing’s overall revenue when the tanker reaches full production in the next decade, a win for Airbus would give its European rival a toehold in the U.S. by establishing a manufacturing facility in Alabama.
“For Boeing, the tanker is important because it would create a platform to keep an international tanker program alive, as well as support volume on the 767 line,” according to a recent note form Bernstein Research.
“The 767 is increasingly important because of the likely need to support 787 customers with lower-priced 767s as interim lift capacity, given significant delays to the 787 program.”
Boeing could file another protest, and it is likely to find something mismanaged in the process as the rush to a new deal leaves little time to fix the original problems, said Lexington’s Thompson.

So it’s pretty apparrent that when Boeing does lose in December they will file another protest and cry to congress. It’s sad to see that instead of offering the warfighter the best platform they could, they are just trying to offload the 767 to keep the line alive. Shame on Boeing.

What the joke is its not just about the aircraft cost but the upgrade and repair to the bases this new Aircraft is suppose to be stationed at. One of the Tanker base I am familiar with will need to have all new hangers and ramps and runway upgrades. How in the world is that suppose to be good stewardship of the tax payers money?

Yeah right, let’s not build bigger, better, more capable aircraft because all we have are small hangers and inadequate runways.

“one more negative comment if I may. Forget the dream of a split contract. This will double the cost the Air force pays logisticaly accross the board. This is going to be an all or nothing.”
——————————
If the USAF is willing to spend $3 billion a year buying 15 KC-X aircraft from one manufacturer…why can’t it consider buying 20 aircraft a year for $4.5 billion and splitting it at a production of 10 for each manufacturer.

Make the Boeing fuel arguments to knock that down to $4.4 billion. Make the NG/EADS argument that the KC-45A can substitute for more KC-767s or C-17s for other missions at far less fuel cost to save one $100 million annually.

So the question then becomes can the USAF afford a $4.2 annual tanker bill? Well I see Gen Schwartz saying already that he thinks we should buy more F-22s. That’s an additional $3 billion a year. I see Gen Schwartz saying we might increase F-35 production from 48 per year to 100 a year. That would cost twice as much annually.

Isn’t there a USAF leader who can shift money around effectively in the right priorities in some sort of compromise? I saw Hillary Clinton yesterday rose the issue of Title 10 of the U.S. Code saying domestic industrial base requirements is a requirement for consideration.

I agree, except in this case the industrial base for tanker production would be doubled…and we would be making all the tankers (and parts) for our allies to buy and train on. Novel idea…that we spend an extra $1.2 billion a year to produce the same tankers that our Western buddies may use for aerial refueling their F-35s some day.

And the remaining money would be saved by not having to endure this hassle one more time in 10 years when the larger, more complex KC-Y comes around. Just buy more of the same two aircraft.

That’s right. US Air Force never used an aircraft bigger than a B-17. Can you imagine the costs for all the new hangars and ramps!

Boeing is also to blame. Boeing sold lately 2 C-17 to the UAE. The Arabs are still searching for two big tents. The King have big political problems because he tried to conceal several acres of desert beneath an apron.

Does anybody know how expensive it will be to operate an aircraft no commercial airline operates anymore? I think this will happen to the B767 about 10 years compared to A330.

Cole,

The “Average fuel offload per sortie” numbers indicate the opposite of what your suggest.

A) The number of tankers you have available is of greater importance than how much fuel each tanker can carry/offload.
B) Our tankers spend way to much time & fuel flying to & from their refuely orbits and should instead operate from closer bases so as to not needlesly waste so much time & fuel…

Yeah, sending a tanker to refuel another tanker makes a lot of sense. ;) Note that there are comparatively few times where it is useful but most of the time it is a total waste.

What past stats indicate is that in the real world we don’t even require the full capacity of the KC-135 most of the time.

The advantages of larger aircraft pale in comparision to their disadvantages. That is why for intra-theater operations the KC-135 is superior to even the KC-10 despite the KC-10 154,000 lb greater fuel capacity…

The KC-Y will be used to fulfill the air bridge requirement MUCH more so than the KC-X.

IF the USAF/DOD thought it could get Congress to agree to $4+ billion a year for tankers rather than ~$3 billion a year it would. At any rate you WAY underestimating the cost of a split by. Although I do agree that we SHOULD be able to find another $ billion hear or there for whatever we need it for.

MHalblaub,

The 24% number used by the Conklin & de Decker study came from industry data, NOT from Boeing (except for that no boubt some of the industry data used to determine the 24% number came from Boeing).

I already explained the problems with the study. Even thought the KC-30 CAN carry more than the KC-767AT, the MAJORITY of the time it won’t.

Average fuel offload per sortie tells you THE MOST IMPORTNAT fact, & that is, typicallly, the average sorte does not offload that much fuel. IF you ever bothered to listed to a tanker General or crewman, they have explained why the numbers are so comparatively low. BECAUSE THE CRITICAL FACTOER IS/WAS THE NUMBER OF BOOBS RATHER THAN THE AMOUNT OF FUEL EACH TANKER COULD CARRY. If you think you can fulfill the same demand for aerial refueling with half as many tankers carrying twace as much fuel each you are VERY sadly mistaken. The result would ba a lot of aircraft running out of fuel waiting in line for their turn…

The numbers are for the ENTIRE fleet. The KC-135 just happens to fly SO many more sorties than the KC-10 (because we have/had more of them AND they are better suited for the majority of the sorties) that the KC-10 doesn’t effect the overall that much.

You are confusing total engine/nacelle size with fan diameter. ;)

Thanks for demonstrating that you do not know what the ALR/PLR & ACN/PCN numbers mean. Here is the simplest way I can explain it. If an aircraft’s ARL/ACN is greater than an airfield’s PRL/PCN, the aircraft can not operate at that airfield without weight restrictions.

With all due respect to Gen. Charles Horner, he is wholefully uninformed & misinformed.

Jack,

I am not a Boeing employee. I am just a well informed citizen who has followed the USAF’s tanker recapitalization program since well before 9/11/01.

It really is pathetic how so many uninformed & misinformed people completely ignor everything the USAF said & did prior to ~2005/2006 when it was FORCED by Congress to conduct a “competition” between two so very different competators & thus was FORCED to alter its criteria (& reality itself) in order to make the noncompetative KC-30 competative JUST SO THAT EADS WOULD COMPETE. The “selection” of the KC-30 over the KC-767AT can only be explained by one of two things. Either the KC-X source selection team forgot what the USAF really needs & wants and forgotten that the alternate reality created to make the KC-30 competative is NOT reality…OR…the KC-X source selection team simply bowed to the intense political pressure to chose the KC-30.

Don’t confuse the DOD KC-X oversite team & the KC-X source selection team with the DOD/USAF as a whole. ;)

With all due respect to Gen. Charles Horner, he is wholefully uninformed & misinformed

Lol!Once again a Boeing employee showing a total lack of respect for the men and women in uniform (active duty & retired). Oh yeah we all know that you are the one who is misinformed.

But the Air Force is nonetheless satisfied with the Northrop-Airbus offer, and industry insiders are expecting the Pentagon’s revised proposal request to again favor the characteristics offered by the Airbus plane — to the chagrin of Boeing.
“They’re happy with the selection criteria, and they will make that very clear in the new proposal, and that will [upset] Boeing because they missed what the Air Force wanted,” said a former Air Force official familiar with the tanker program

It really doesn’t matter any way because the Northrop tanker will obviously win again come December.

And if Northrop-Airbus does win again, then Boeing will be awarded the contract after 20 Jan 09. Senatory McCain won’t be there to save it for Northrop this time.

And if Northrop-Airbus does win again, then Boeing will be awarded the contract after 20 Jan 09. Senatory McCain won’t be there to save it for Northrop this time.

Enlighten us GENIUS on how McCain SAVED it for Northrop? Northrop did not bid when Boeing was busted first time around. And if Obama does win he is not going to just award the contract to Boeing for Boeing’s sake.

PCFEM seems to think that he knows what they Air Force needs and wants when it’s obvious they want the Northrop tanker, and they WILL get the Northrop tanker. You can post your Boeing issued data and numbers all you want but you will still fail to get anyone to come into your fantasy world.

Amen brother

Chris,

I listened to what the USAF said prior to 2004 when it was forced by Congress to have a competition which forced it to alter its criteria for the sake of making the KC-30 appear competative so that EADS would compete (since it said it would not compete for a contract it could not win).

I listened to what the official government documents clearly indicated and what BOTH tanker Generals & crewmen said (both publicly & privately) & CONTINUE to say.

Unfortunately the KC-X source selection team & the DOD KC-X oversite team appear to completely ingored all that…

The USAF does not want the KC-30, it (as it had stated so clearly) wants the KC-767. But the USAF has not been in direct control over the decision since 2004. The KC-X source selection team IS NOT the USAF.

“They’re happy with the selection criteria, and they will make that very clear in the new proposal, and that will [upset] Boeing because they missed what the Air Force wanted,” said a former Air Force official familiar with the tanker program, who declined to be named because he’s not authorized to speak on its behalf.
The Air Force said it liked the larger aircraft - a converted A330 - around which Northrop-Airbus based its offer. But Boeing’s offer, built on a 767, was widely seen as a way for the company to salvage a program that’s begun to wind down, the former official said

The Air Force wants the Northrop Tanker, Many people within the Air Force have stated this, General Horner even said so. You continue to look at things in Boeing tinted glasses while the rest of the us are living in reality

Dear pfcem,

Just read the first page of the Conklin & de Decker “study” and you’ll find the 24 % originate from another “study” by Conklin & de Decker for Boeing.

pfcem:
“The 24% number used by the Conklin & de Decker study came from industry data, NOT from Boeing (except for that no boubt some of the industry data used to determine the 24% number came from Boeing).”

You know this older “study”?

pfcem:
“I already explained the problems with the study. Even thought the KC-30 CAN carry more than the KC-767AT, the MAJORITY of the time it won’t.”

But that is what the “study” by Conklin & de Decker implies: the KC-30 carries more. You can’t have it both ways at the same time. You can’t argue at MTOW one plane guzzles “24 %” more and in the next sentence your argue the bigger aircraft never operate that way.

pfcem
“BECAUSE THE CRITICAL FACTOER IS/WAS THE NUMBER OF BOOBS RATHER THAN THE AMOUNT OF FUEL EACH TANKER COULD CARRY. If you think you can fulfill the same demand for aerial refueling with half as many tankers carrying twace as much fuel each you are VERY sadly mistaken.”

Try the Navy refueling system. It’s sufficient for any fighter aircraft and you can refuel 2 aircrafts at time. Be more specific. It’s not the raw number of refueling stations you have. What really counts is the number of refueling points on station.

pfcem:
“The numbers are fr the ENTIRE fleet.”

You know the fleet mix? Your numbers are therefore even less useful. With your raw figure it’s hard to understand why Air Force didn’t want a KC-737 or a KC-320.

pfcem:
“You are confusing total engine/nacelle size with fan diameter. ;)”

Please tell that General Electric, Pratt & Whitney or Rolls-Royce plc. I used their informations for a proper comparison of fan diameter.

pfcem:
“Thanks for demonstrating that you do not know what the ALR/PLR & ACN/PCN numbers mean. Here is the simplest way I can explain it. If an aircraft’s ARL/ACN is greater than an airfield’s PRL/PCN, the aircraft can not operate at that airfield without weight restrictions.”

So you’re a civil engineer? You can operate an aircraft with ACN greater than PCN. Some airports allow it. They just charge higher fees. Problem is not the static load it’s the dynamic load. Aircrafts have to reduce speed on apron to compensate higher weight (F=ma).

You can operate a KC-45 on every ramp a KC-767 is allowed to operate on. You just have to repair your apron a few years earlier.

pfcem:
“With all due respect to Gen. Charles Horner, he is wholefully uninformed & misinformed.”

Only Boeing knows what Air Force needs!

pfcem:
“I listened to what the USAF said prior to 2004 when ” Darleen Druyun was in charge.

pfcem fails to understand that the needs of the Navy and the Air Force are going to change and have changed from lets say the last 10 years. The Air Force needs a platform that can be flexable, that can adapt to the needs of the service as they change. The KC-45 clearly fits the bill. The ability to carry cargo and passengers is a HUGE perk (no matter how much you try to spin it negatively) an air wing commander was quoted as saying “with the KC-45 you can transport an entire air wing with fuel and support personel and equipment, refuel the fighters enroute to their destination anywhere in the world. You simply cannot do that with the Boeing Tanker.” That speaks for itself.

Actually Jack, you need to revisit the USAF tanker program and what they originally…(and up until half way thru the proposal review)…continued to state was their intention: A replacement for the KC-135.

That meant the same size/footprint/offload capabilities in PHASE 1 of the contract. Not a bigger KC-10 type of replacement that wasn’t supposed to come until PHASE 2 and 3 of the contract.

If the USAF wants the bigger version now…then Boeing should be allowed to put forth the KC-777. It would be superior to the KC-45 in EVERY respect. Now, Northrop and the USAF both know that a KC-777 would be far behind in development compared to its rival, so I’m sure the KC-45 would still win PHASE 1 based ONLY on that fact. However, Boeing should be selected in PHASE 2 and 3 of the tanker program.

The Frenchies and Gerwomen should not benefit in any way from a US military contract, especially one this strategic and lucrative. Not only did they refuse to back us up in Iraq, they went out of their way to undermind our efforts. They contribute only minimal forces in Afghanistan and the Gerwomen refuse to even put their troops into combat.

To reward them with a $35B contract for behaving in such a manner is truly sickening to this US tax payer.

Contract proposal is just that! The Government employees decided what would be best for the money for our military. As long as both sides met the minimum criteria for the contract then they both qualify. The old saying that all of our equipment are made by the cheapest bidder is still true today. Now the best quality for the $$$ is the key for success in today’s environment. Northrop Grumman thinking and planning ahead for the future concepts is showing which company employees have the military needs in the forefront of their mines. See if the Aircraft contract is done right, there won’t be a second contract or a third. This one will take care of the Air Force and all flying vessels in America for many Decades to come. I say don’t let the companies re-bid instead just re-look at the original offer from all companies that qualified confirm that there was no errors or assumptions made by either party the contractor or the government representative. .

schlappy,
Boeing could’ve offered the 777 instead of the 767. Its not like they didn’t know what Northrop was offering! They clearly wanted to force the 767(a dying production line) on the Air Force as many defense insiders have stated OVER and OVER and OVER again. Boeing was arrogant and thought they knew what the Air Force wanted instead of the Air Force itself.

Sclappy writes “The Frenchies and Gerwomen should not benefit in any way from a US military contract, especially one this strategic and lucrative. Not only did they refuse to back us up in Iraq, they went out of their way to undermind our efforts. They contribute only minimal forces in Afghanistan and the Gerwomen refuse to even put their troops into combat.”

And the winner of the most Juvenile post of the day goes to…..The aircraft is going to be built in Alabama, not France. This has nothing to do with Iraq or Afghanistan.

The Air Force said it liked the larger aircraft - a converted A330 - around which Northrop-Airbus based its offer. But Boeing’s offer, built on a 767, was widely seen as a way for the company to salvage a program that’s begun to wind down, the former official said.
Boeing may try again with 777
Some industry experts expect Boeing to now offer up its larger 777 model, something the aircraft maker has so far declined to comment on. It’s possible the company won’t offer the model, however, because it carries a bigger price tag due to its popularity among commercial aircraft operators.

Boeing is screwed aither way if they offer the 767 they’ll lose, If they offer 777 they lose. and you can bet they will file another protest.

Saw Gen. Schwartz mention a possible commercial aerial refueling contract that may fly in addition to KC-X purchases.

With a split buy, potential contractors to include Boeing and NG/EADS, interested in the commercial fee-per-fuel contract could build additional aircraft for that, and overseas sales, to enhance production quantities and make the respective factories more productive. NG/EADS also says they will build freight versions of the A330 in Mobile, as would Boeing (if anyone will buy them).

We ante up $153 billion in tax rebates as an incentive to the economy. Now they are talking about another $15 billion for temporary road construction jobs. How about a “measley” extra billion+ a year to start a competing aerospace factory in the south that may create upwards of 40,000 U.S. jobs paid for by doing something as simple as reducing the F-35 buy from 110 a year back to 90 a year.

Keep in mind that a split buy producing 20 aircraft a year at $4.5 billion would cost $13.5 billion over 3 years for 60 aircraft in contrast to 4 years and $12 billion for 60 sole source aircraft. That’s not much difference in cost and it accelerates the buy to retire the KC-135E earlier if not immediately…same argument being made to accelerate F-35 purchases from original 48 up to 110 annually.

Chris
After the Air Force’s abortive try to use the 767, whether you agree with it or not, check out the competition history on Boeing’s request for a waiver on WTO provisions and McCain raising his objections to Secretary England and the result. It was arguably the right thing to do depending on whose side you’re on. I’m staying away from campaign contributor issues purposely.

An Obama “award” wouldn’t be for Boeing’s sake as much as keeping the jobs in the US. He has been rather protectionist you know. Read the latest issues of The Economist or even the NYT. On the other hand, who knows what he’s promised the Germans or the French recently?

My bias is toward getting the right decision and I trust the current group at the top to do the right thing. I’m not sure about the next group though, the FNGs so to speak.

dsueii,
If I want news the last place I would go is the NYT. What don’t you understand about the Northrop plane being assembled in AMERICA, yes that means AMERICAN jobs. So on the basis of keeping jobs in AMERICA, giving it Boeing for that purpose alone clearly doesn’t float.

MHalblaub,

Yes the 24% number came from a previous analysis dated November 12, 2007. Using airline industry data, NOT FROM BOEING! Boeing contracted Conklin & de Decker Aviation Information to do the analysis but Conklin & de Decker did the analysis, NOT BOEING.


To determine this impact, an analysis was accomplished, using published data, to alculate the additional fuel consumption and the resulting extra cost incurred by a fleet of 179 Airbus 330-200 when compared with the Boeing 767-200ER where both fly similar commercial mission profiles, both fly 750 hours per year over a 40 year service life and both are perated at or near their maximum take-off gross weight.

As I have already said the analysis too simple to accurately determine the true cost difference & therefore the final numbers are innacurate BUT IT DOES clearly demonstrate that a cost difference exists but a MUCH more complicated analysis would be required to obtain a more accurate number.

Operation Desert Storm:
256 KC-135s and 46 KC-10s
In Desert Shield, tankers flew 4,967 sorties and 19,089 hours, refueled 14,588 receivers, including 5,495 Navy and Marine aircraft, and offloaded 68.2 million gallons of fuel. Tankers surpassed this effort during the six weeks of Desert Storm when they flew 15,434 sorties, logged 59,943 hours, refueled 45,955 aircraft and offloaded 110.2 million gallons of fuel. Approximately 20% was used for Navy and Marine receivers.

Operation Iraqi Freedom:
149 KC-135s, and 33 KC-10s
http://www.iwar.org.uk/news-archive/iraq/quick-facts.htm

What is missing is that the numbers are the TOTAL/AVERAGE. The fuel demand was by no means constant. There were times when the demand (& resulting per sortie offload) was higher than average & times when the demand was lower. BUT IT DOES CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE THAT ON AVERAGE WE DO NOT EVEN USE THE FULL CAPACITY OF THE KC-135 MOST OF THE TIME. Even the KC-135s landed with fuel still in the tanks (& not just the KC-135’s own emergency resever).

http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?NSIAD-94-68
Take particular nore to Figure 1: Comparison of Used/Unused Fuel at Three Tanker Bases (documant page 5; pdf page 7).

OK:> IT IS THE NUMBER OF AIRCRAFT YOU CAN REFUEL AT A TIME THAT OF GREATER IMPORTANCE THAN HOW MUCH FUEL EACH TANKER CAN CARRY/OFFLOAD.

General Electric, Pratt & Whitney or Rolls-Royce all know quite well that engine nacelle size (& nor fan diameter) which is the limiting factor as to what engines can & can not fit on a particular aircraft (some engines are more “compact/space efficient” than others).

Sorry but Darleen Druyun couldn’t blow her nose [exaggerating to make a point] without permission from her bosses. She was never in charge of anything her boses did not giver her authority over. She had no part in the decision to lease KC-767s, her job was to negotiate the details of the lease with Boeing AFTER THE CHOICE TO LEAST KC-767s HAD ALREADY BEEN MADE. And you do realize that she left the USAF in November 2002…

Jack,

Actually I DO know that “the needs of the Navy and the Air Force are going to change and have changed from lets say the last 10 years”. BUT some needs havn’t changed & won’t change for the foreseeable future. One of those needs is for a MEDIUM (not larger than the KC-10) tanker to operate from small airfields close to the fight in order to provide aerial refueling in the best & most effecient way. WE DO NOT NEED TO REPLACE THE KC-135 BECAUSE THE KC-135 LACKS CAPACITY BUT BECAUSE THE KC-135 CAN NOT FLY FOREVER! Now we would like the KC-135 replacement to have better take-off performance & greater airlift capacity BUT NOWHERE IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT THE CAPACITY OF THE KC-30 IS WHAT IS NEEDED. We need the KC-135 to not be some bigger than KC-10 behemoth with capacity that will seldom EVER be utilized & requires BILLIONS of dollars in infrastructure improvement just to be able to do what the KC-135 does as well as the KC-135 does it.

The KC-767AT is flexable & can adapt to the needs of the service as they change AND IT FITS THE EXITING REQUIREMENTS. When you need the most fuel offload, the KC-767AT can deliver more than 25,000 lbs than the KC-135R & when you need to utilice it as a cargo transport it can carry 3-4+ times as much as a KC-135 & 1-2+ times as much as a C-17.

What you & all the other EADS/KC-30 Kool-Aid drinkers fail to realize (or deliberately ignore) is that the extra capacity of the KC-30 comes at HUGE costs. Costs which far outweigh the extra capacity that will seldom be utilized anyway.

I don’t know of any air wing commander who ever said such a thing but if any did they would be wrong, the KC-767AT can do ALL THAT.

By the way, the USAF has issued a Cease and Desist Order against referring to the KC-30 as the KC-45.

Jack and Chris…niether of you have your facts straight.

A) The plane is not being “built” in America…its is being “ASSEMBLED” in America. The Frenchies and Gerwomen (and Brits) will be building it and then sending it over for assembly. Why do you think they chose Alabama??? Cheap, non-union and uneducated labor force to simply follow assembly instructions. The bulk of the parts and technology is coming from Europe and that’s where the bulk of the $$$$ will go. Nice job wanting to see the Euros make all the profit and give the scraps to the American taxpayer…the one’s who are funding the program.

B) Boeing was told from the get-go that a KC-767 size would be given just as much preference in the key criteria as the larger EADS offering…(and I don’t care who they’re partnered with, the aircraft is an Airbus EADS platform)…but the USAF lied. They gave all the “pros” to the larger aircraft without deducting points for being too large to fit in 80% of our hangers and operate from 60% of our runways.

Thank God for the GAO and thank God for the firing of Wynne and Moseley, so that we can have a FAIR re-bid on this flawed and corrupt contract award.

*Oh, and Chris…I call’em as I see’em!!!!!

Pappy Schlappy blurts out: A) The plane is not being “built” in America…its is being “ASSEMBLED” in America. The Frenchies and Gerwomen (and Brits) will be building it and then sending it over for assembly. Why do you think they chose Alabama??? Cheap, non-union and uneducated labor force to simply follow assembly instructions. The bulk of the parts and technology is coming from Europe and that’s where the bulk of the $$$$ will go. Nice job wanting to see the Euros make all the profit and give the scraps to the American taxpayer…the one’s who are funding the program.”
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Choice as I see it:

A)$35 billlion to save 35,000 overpaid union employees at roughly $1 million a job?

or….

B)$40 billion to save 35,000 Blue State boys… too dumb to move out of the rain forest or Kansas…PLUS another 35,000 jobs for us good old boys who know better than to pay so much for a house that it gets foreclosed on.

Seems pretty apparent which choice creates the most jobs for the dollar…and which provides an effective USAF solution in lieu of an overly-expensive future KC-Y and KC-Z.

You may now return to your xenophobic cave Schlappy, co-habitated by those Taliban boys too afraid to compete with other ideas and cultural norms.

Maybe that’s why us southern dummies get the $4 billion new foreign-owned steel mills on top of Hyundai and Daimler plants, while you union-loving yahoos struggle to produce U.S. steel for unionized car manufacturers producing second-rate vehicle designs…cuz thats all they can afford to produce profitably after grossly overpaying your union high school graduates.

BTW, my wife is half-Gerwoman and sufficient woman to co-produce a Valedictorian daughter and subsequent Magna Cum Laude Biochemistry college graduate who hopes to attend Med school a year from now. Ya’ll come back now Schlappy, but don’t let the screen door hit ya on the way out you stupid sumbitch.

A)$35 billion to save 35,000 overpaid union high school graduates at roughly $1 million a job?

or….

B)$40 billion to save 35,000+ Boeing employees PLUS another 35,000+ new jobs, and a new competing industry in the south.

Seems pretty apparent which choice creates the most jobs for the dollar and competition for the future…and which provides an effective USAF solution in lieu of an overly-expensive future KC-Y and KC-Z.

You may now return to your xenophobic cave Schlappy. You really lucked out because Colin Clark apparently wouldn’t print what I said the first time.

Chris,
I know how you feel about the NYT but my MO is “know thine enemy.” It’s only one news source of dozens I use. So where are your news sources that you can’t recall the World Trade Org aspects or McCain’s involvement in the competition phase?

It “floats” for many more reasons than you’re willing to admit to as well as MORE jobs here. Schlappy is correct on that score. It also floats because it would make Obama look good and stay true to his promises (to date). I realize the man who stands for change often changes. McCain, on the other hand, would probably intervene once again in the event of a Boeing selection.

I do think it would have to be a 777 though based on an input from a friend (below) but then I guess Obama wouldn’t have to intervene. Here’s that “informed” opinion by an AF Col retired and ex-Boeing executive.

“The 767 is at least 20 years old, and the 330 is nearly the same generation as the 777 only about 5 years earlier. I think the AF, if they succeed, will can the 767. While the 777 is a far better proposal, if they decide not to go with it or if the RFQ requirements don’t fit, then the challenge is over. The 330 wins quickly over the 767 while the 777 is a no brainer victory over the 330. If they eliminate the 777 (either the AF or Boeing) the bidding is over….they de facto select the Airbus…what a shame.”

I don’t know whether he’s correct but he usually is. His opinions are his own. There’s a lot of point counter point above and people who claim to “know” this or that and I don’t claim to know more than anyone including you, I just know what I read (ye