Why the Air Force Picked Northrop’s Tanker

Why the Air Force Picked Northrop’s Tanker

Read all about it. Here’s the first interview with someone who actually knows why the Pentagon decided to buy the Northrop Grumman KC-45 airborne tanker.

The concept of operations that will govern how the airplane is used played a key role in driving Air Force officials to conclude that the Northrop tanker was much better suited to the military’s future. The service wants tankers to operate at a stand-off distance. It wants fighter planes and unmanned planes to be able to refuel two or three times while in the air. This allows them to take off with significantly heavier ordnance loads and to launch several strikes instead of going up once, gassing up, firing weapons and going back to base.

The greater size of the Northrop plane means it can carry more fuel, allowing it to remain aloft for longer periods and to refuel more planes. Once it empties its bladders, it can then refuel and perform reconnaissance missions using a wide array of electro-optical, infrared and other sensors for a significant period of time. In fact, the Northrop plane can stay in the air for up to 18 hours at a stretch allowing it to perform other missions as well, such as carrying a router and becoming a communications hub, though I was told this was not a requirement.

Here are some of the technical factors that led the Air Force to pick the Northrop plane. First, the Northrop tanker’s boom pumps fuel at a significantly faster rate than would the Boeing 767 tanker. The faster refueling speed puts the lie to the claim by Rep. Norm Dicks (D-Wash.) that the Boeing plane will consume $35 billion less in fuel than their plane, our source said. The study Dicks cited — which earned a “D” in quality of analysis from our source — simply took the difference in the amount of fuel an equal number of Boeing and Northrop tankers would consumer and extrapolated it. The study, by a Boeing consultant, also assumed the fuel consumption of a regular 767, not the Boeing tanker. It did not take into account the greater fuel efficiency of the newer Northrop plane, according to our source. Also, the Northrop tanker’s bigger size and ability to refuel at faster speeds means fewer Northrop planes would be deployed.

Second, the Northrop tanker’s boom has a significantly larger boom envelope than does the Boeing plane. This gives pilots a much greater safety margin when hooking up at the flying gas pump. It also, our source says, means they can refuel a wider range of aircraft, including unmanned fliers.

The fact that several allies, including Australia, have bought or committed to buy very similar planes means the US has an array of compatible tankers deployed around the world which it can draw on in a crisis, our source said. It also means that NATO and other allies can use common training techniques for their pilots, reducing costs and ensuring interoperability.

Boil all of this down and what you get is a tanker that, our source said, that can support fifth generation fighter aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 and their concepts of operations, our source said. It also means the US would get a plane that is more flexible, more efficient and can serve as the hub for enormously complex and ambitious operations involving a wide array of fighters, sensor aircraft – both manned and unmanned – operating over enormous distances.

“You are taking an airplane [the KC-135] that could only do one mission one time and now you are doing three missions,” our source said.

One thing several sources had cited earlier as an important factor — that the Northrop tanker could refuel itself — turns out to have been a requirement that both builders met. But the faster refueling speed of the Northrop tanker means those planes can refuel each other more efficiently.

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This doesn’t really read like an interview. A little bit more info on who is saying what would be appretiated.

Why not let Norm Dicks make all of our defense purchases because he obviously knows what the Air Force nees more then the Air Force itself.

So, the AF wrote an RFP for what they thought they wanted. But NG came in with a bigger plane, and the AF said, “Wow. Look at all the things we can do with THIS plane!” The AF picked what they NOW wanted, which was not truly the scope of the original RFP. Total cost and MilCon was not a given as much weight because that might have prevented them from getting what they wanted. IOW, they started wanted a Ford Escape Hybrid to replace their Chevy S-10 Blazer, but saw an Escallade drive by and wanted that instead.

OK, maybe so. But you are missing a key point, they can buy the “Escalade” for the same price as the “Escape”.

Boeing has 3 versions in its 767 Family. The
–200,-300 and the –400, Boeing could have offered it –400 which is larger than the A330-200 which is the KC-45. No Boeing offered the smaller –200 aircraft because that is what Boeing Said the Air Force will take from them. The Japanese and Italian Tanker are based on the –200 design and these two countries help build the airframe. The Air Force made a decision which was contrary to Boeings decision on a tanker which proves the Air Force knows what it needed not Boeing or Norm Dicks.

Even if you accept Boeing’s assertion that the AF wanted ‘KC-135 size’ (which I don’t) Boeing’s minions are still in the position of defending a position that gives the military less value for their money. BTW: the award is for UP TO 179 planes. Any bets the AF won’t buy fewer KC-45s to still have more capability than the KC-767 package would offer?

seems everyone is missing the mission capability aspect of this entire discussion. the warfighter needs full mission capability all the time in order to carry out its mission. Do you know how tough a strangle-hold having another country providing that support? They have no alegiance to America and can stop production or set the price and flow of key assets to their own internation agenda…and there would be NOTHING anyone in the USA could do about it; but talk of course! meanwhile one of the “friends of france” could operate without our ability to put BOT at the behest of the combatant commanders. Good Grief! Why do we keep getting this wrong.

They have no alegiance to America and can stop production or set the price and flow of key assets to their own internation agenda…and there would be NOTHING anyone in the USA could do about it–

That would never happen, you think EADS would do something stupid like that? They would never be able to to partner on a major defense project again, it would be suicide. EADS is not just a “french company” it is a conglomorate of France, Germany, and the UK. You need to stop bying into all the “French are out to get us” propoganda, jeez.

I am not sure if the NG offering is cheaper per plane. Even so, an Escalade will not fit in my garage without costly construction costs. So it is not really cheaper. You cannot ignore MilCon, unless the AF is willing to buy less planes.

The whole thing is pretty simple, it comes down to the Air Force criteria for the plane. Either the Air Force ignored their stated criteria or they weren’t even sure at the start what they wanted. Neither of those are acceptable.

The Northrop plane may very well be the better of the two. It may even fit better with the long term mission goals of the Air Force, but by not being chosen on the pre-established criteria it is an unfair decision with too high a cost. The Air Force is acting like someone who goes shopping for a new pickup, they came to the dealer to buy an F-150 but look over there now they want the full cab F-350.

A question I would pose with all the statement on savings is this, the Northrop plane has admitted to needing a large hanger, it requires a waiver on normal procedures for when the planes are parked keeping them closer than normal too allow them to fit in designated spaces, due to the increased weight and size they will require longer runways for take off… how does the reduced range of these planes resulting from a reduced number of airbases being able to house them affect there operation cost?

“I am not sure if the NG offering is cheaper per plane. Even so, an Escalade will not fit in my garage without costly construction costs.”

Most of the tanker won’t have a “garage”. They are just parked on apron. Air Force can use C-17 hangars. Forget the apron strength issue. Both tankers will put nearly the same pressure on tarmac.

How expensive get spare parts then your car is out of production for years? B767 production will be closed without the tanker deal.

You won’t get better equipment for your car. At Farnborough two more fuel efficient engines were offered for A330, PW4000-100 Advantage70 and GEnX (claimed to be 13 % more fuel efficient?).

Don’t mix up efficiencies with pure consumption. A study ordered by Boeing claims a B767-200ER guzzles 24 % less fuel than A330-200 for assumption both planes operate at maximum takeoff weight. At MTOW a A330-200 carries 33 % more passengers.

Many reference the “requirements” but fail to mention the fact that Boeing bought the original requirements through bribes during the first tanker lease scandal. Boeing paid for the exact specification of their proposed solution and the warfighter was not invited to the party. I can’t blame Boeing for being angry after paying all that bribe money and getting nothing for it.

After seeing the degree to which Boeing will lie, cheat and bribe to stay afloat, I worry that we have their aircraft and rockets overhead all the time. How many lies and bribes got them certified? While it may be a shock for the ex-Boeing workers to move to Mobile, Alabama, it will be a pleasant change for them to work for NGC, a company with ethics.

Most people are focusing on which is the better airframe and not the real issue. The AF set down a list of requirements, the field is supposed to be level. Each company submitted what they felt would give them the best chance at getting the contract. Both company’s have “experts” and lobbiest to push their airframe.

The problem is that the AF did not stick to the criteria they developed, the field either by accedent or a desire to get the better airframe got tilted and thats unacceptable.

Having worked on a source selection team, things need to be transparent and equal, if things change then they need to change for both sides, if your in discusions with one team you need to hold discussions with the other side also. It’s just a matter of following the rules, I’m sure the contracting team had nothing but the best intentions and did not do anything because of bribes or kick backs or anything like that.

They just lost focus. No matter who won the competion the other side was going to protest. The problem is that anyone can protest for any reason, and in this case Boeing did not get a fair chance, so now we start over.

A question I would pose with all the statement on savings is this, the Northrop plane has admitted to needing a large hanger, it requires a waiver on normal procedures for when the planes are parked keeping them closer than normal too allow them to fit in designated spaces, due to the increased weight and size they will require longer runways for take off… how does the reduced range of these planes resulting from a reduced number of airbases being able to house them affect there operation cost?

JN, It’s a popular misconception that the heavier plane needs a longer runway to operate from. In this case, when the RAF was shopping for it’s tanker, they found the KC-767 needed more runway– not to takeoff, but to safely stop on an aborted takeoff at max TO weight. Yeah, it’s a once in a lifetime need, but that’s the standard for airfield operating performance.

Let’s examine some facts and leave fiction out of this debate:

Fuel efficiency: The A330 is 6% more fuel efficient than the 767, both in the commercial world and according to AF findings. Hence the reason the A330 shut out the 767 in the commercial world. Does anyone honestly believe a for-profit airline would buy a fleet of A330s if they we’re “24% less fuel efficient” than a 767? Com’on — Boeing spin with a Boeing-paid fuel efficiency study in hand. A study most analysts have completely discredited.

Milcon/hangars: Neither the Boeing or NG tankers will fit in existing tanker hangars — period.

Runways: At full load, the 767 needs at least 8,000 feet (which Boeing folks have stated) whereas the A330/KC-45 can get out of a 7,000 foot runway at full load. BTW, the KC-45’s full load includes an extra 45,000 pounds of fuel. Gee, wouldn’t it be nice if a TANKER carried as much fuel as humanly possible to execute a TANKING mission?

Range: Yes, the A330/KC-45 can fly farther, stay in a refueling orbit longer and deliver more fuel.

Foreign production/support: Yes, the A330 is a decades newer design and parts are plentiful, whereas the 767 is dead. And for posters “Chris” and “Walker” on this page – who comment about “France” or a “foreign company” stopping production of airframes if they disagree w/ U.S. policy — I say, PLEASE… Did you boys know that the current KC-135 tanker, built by Boeing, have French engines? That’s right you scholars – four engines on each plane in fact. I can’t recall any press about France withholding support on KC-135 engines? From what I’ve read, the A330 tankers will be built in the U.S. and not Europe. Hunh.

Runway/ramp strength: Please. Ever seen a C-17 sitting next to an A330? Last year at the PAS they parked next to each other. Given size and weight, I suspect wherever you can put a C-17 you can put an A330/KC-45…

Fair competition: To say that the playing field was “skewed” to favor NG/EADS is a ridiculous statement in and of itself. Boeing was always favored to win — even by ten out of ten analysts just weeks prior to the contract announcement. The AF threw down a set of requirements and it was up to each company to bring their best game. BA was arrogant as usual, tried to push the 767 again, and lost. End of story. Considering the failed Boeing lease deal — Boeing is now receiving a THIRD chance to win. I guess BA will continue to stall this program (with no regard for the warfighter) and forcing re-competes until they win.

For all who wanted/expected the Patriots to win the superbowl, I suggest we lobby Congress to keep holding the superbowl over and over until the Patriots win. Because that’s the American spirit of competition – right?

http://​www​.army​-technology​.com/​n​e​w​s​/​n​e​w​s​5​2​1​3​.​h​tml

Walker and others keep harping on the KC-45 being French built. Wake up. The plane will be assembled in Mobile, Alabama, by Northop Grumman — a major US defense manufacturer. If the French decide to end its alliances with US (which will not happen — ever) Northrop will keep making these planes. If this extremely stupid Boeing protectionism argument ever gained traction it would fly in the face of our international realities. Most everything made in the US has some foreign component. Its more economical. If any critical foreign component is ever denied us in times of crisis, we can change that in a milisecond. Why don’t the Boeing hired pundits go interview the Japan and Italian airforces about Boeings tanker production reliability or capabilities — or the Arabian countries about the dreamliner production schedules. Boeing is fat cat that has lived off bribery and needs its company overhauled to be competitive — not protected by fools and cronies.

For the “I hate France” crowd, newsflash; we now live in a “flat” world and all of our economies are dependent on each other. France would be slitting its own throat to try and cut off spares and support for the tanker.

Not to even mention the fact that the aircraft was to be made in the United States.

The big loser in this all is national defense. Even if the next source selection is run completely 100% above boards and Boeing again loses, we all know they and their bought and paid for puppets in Congress will stall the fielding of this critical capability again and again until they get their own way.

Under other circumstances, Boeing would have been banned from this competition, due to it’s actions in the recent past. I believe that flawed or not, the decision to go with the 330 was justified.

(If for no other reason than to make it clear to Boeing that it’s not the only game in town.)

I’ve seen contracts let for some very stupid reasons. Lower cost (primary)and the resulting reduced quality (minor consideration) is a common case.

I’ve also observed intentional directed disposal of spares to deliberately shorten the service life of systems, in order to help justify high cost R&D programs for replacement systems. (The R&D cost comes out of someone elses budget.)

This “source” doesn’t know what it is talking about. The concept of operations it describes doesn’t match up with the solicitation documents. Not the Operational Requirements Document (ORD), not the Initial Capabilities Document (ICD), not the System Requirements Document (SRD)…

What good is a higher fuel transfer rate when the VAST MAJORITY of the aircraft it will be refueling can’t recieve fuel at more than 900 gal/min & even the (IIRC) 4 platforms which can can’t do so for a significant portion of refueling time due to having to slow fuel transfer to maintain balance & when switching between receiver aircraft tanks.

Conklin & de Decker is a well respected INDEPENDENT company that does aviation consulting & analysis. It was contracted by Boeing to analyze the additional fuel consumption and the resulting extra cost incurred by a fleet of 179 Airbus 330–200 when compared with the Boeing 767-200ER where both fly similar commercial mission profiles, both fly 750 hours per year over a 40 year service life and both are operated at or near their maximum take-off gross weight. Aside from being an over simplified analysis which does not quite model how the KC-767AT &/or KC-30 would actually operate, the basics of the analysis are correct. The A330-200/KC-30 DOES burn more fuel per hour than the 767-200ER/KC-767AT (even when crrying the same load much less a greater one) & over the life of the KC-X, that difference DOES add up to BILLIONS of dollars. And unlike commercial airliners,
tankers do not earn money for what they carry in order to offset the higher operating costs.

tanker_t,

Even the Italian & Japanese KC-767A can take-off at MTOW from a 7700′ runway. The KC-767AT has more powerful engines & higher lift/load flaps. PLUS even with a full load of fuel neither the KC-767AT nor the KC-30 will be at MTOW…

BS_Buster hits the six hole. Boeing should be ashamed and take their lumps. The new leadership now at the helm of the USAF due to the nuclear related mis-steps may also be there for the lack of attention-to-detail over the greedy transgressions of their contracting officers…

Pfcem, the A330 can also do a 7700 ft takeoff at their MTOW which is greater than the KC767. Also Conklin & Decker were paid bu Boeing to make a one side study in Boeing favor. Why, they wanted the money simple as that. Would you tell the company that paid you that the other plane was better, no You tell them what they wanted you to say. Even Norm Dicks Boeings biggest cry baby admitted that the study was funded by Boeing.

So who do you trust?

Pfcem, you must live in a very simple world, so let’s go over it in real simple terms. A Volkswagen gets better gas MILEAGE than a Greyhound Bus, Agree? A Volkswagen can only carry 4 people, A Bus a hundred or so. The bus is far me EFFICIENT than a Volkswagen at carrying people. So get over it, Boeing loses again!

EagleHauler,

BS_Buster doesn’t know what he is talking about.

Boeing did not buy the original requirements, the 767 was/is simply SO much closer to the original requirements than anything else available. The USAF CLEARLY saw & CLEARLY stated that. Don’t confuse what the USAF did to try to get the lease deal done ASAP with anything Boeing did — which was what every private company does, try to get the customer what it wants & make a profit from doing so. The lease price was a fair price (& a sweat deel for the USAF) but that was not good enough for some who demanded the best possible price even if it meant any profit Boeing made was lost because it had to pay out to other 767 customers the difference between that the USAF paid & what the other customers paid.

EADS (airbus) is the company that has cheated & bribed to stay afloat.

***

Oldest391,

The point is that the KC-767AT doesn’t need 8,000′ to take off. With more powerful engines & greater lift flaps it can do BETTER than the 7,700′ the KC-767AT can do. PLUS with 202,000 lbs of fuel the KC-767AT will not be at MTOW. ;)

The 8,000 feet number ignorant people like tanker_t like to quote is NOTHING MORE than the requirement the USAF had for the tanker lease & a number often quoted during that time for the KC-767 (the version proposed for the lease being essentially the same as the one for Italy) even though it could do slightly better.

I know the truth hurts but the A330-200/KC-30 DOES burn more fuel per hour than the 767-200ER/KC-767AT (even when crrying the same load much less a greater one) & over the life of the KC-X, that difference DOES add up to BILLIONS of dollars — the only “question” is how many BILLIONS. As I said, the basics of the analysis are correct but it was an over simplified analysis which does not quite model how the KC-767AT &/or KC-30 would actually operate. So while it did correctly conclude that the A330-200/KC-30 burns more fuel resulting in higher cost over the life of the aircraft, it is doubtful the actual numbers it calculated are correct. To get a more accurate number would require a MUCH more complicated analysis.

Like I said Conklin & de Decker is a well respected INDEPENDENT company. Boeing contracted them to do the analysis becasue it wanted to know how much more expensive the fuel costs of the A330-200/KC-30 would be in the theoretical life of the KC-X. That theA330-200/KC-30 burns more fuel resulting in higher costs are unquestionable.

***

BS_Buster,

You are the one living in a simple world. Try using a more accurate analogy. Using an automotive theme…

A 5-passenger mid-sized sedan gets better gas mileage than a 6-passenger large sedan. It gets better gas mileage PER PASSSENGER with 1 passenger, with 2 passengers, with 3 passengers, with 4 passengers & with 5 passengers. While the 6-passenger large sedan may get better gas mileage PER PASSSENGER when it carries 6 passengers than the 5-passenger mid-sized sedan gets when it carries 5 passengers the VAST majority of the time they only carry 3–4 passengers.

BUT the real problem with your bogus theory is that tankers do not operate as a single aircraft. The total number of tankers supporting an operational theater could be over 100 & the number of booms in the air is often of greater importance than how much fuel each tanker can carry/transfer. We don’t even utilize the full capacity of the KC-135 most of the time. PLUS since you can operate a greater number of KC-767AT at each airfield & at airfields that can not operate the KC-30 at all or only at reduced take-off weight, for a given number of booms needed to support an operational theater, not only does each KC-767AT burn less fuel every hour, as a whole, a KC-767AT fleet would fly fewer hours due to flying lesser distances because of having more tankers closer to the refueling points than a fleet of KC-30.

Dear pfcem,

the study by Conklin & de Decker is obscure. The 24 % are just taken out of an older study for both aircrafts operating near maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) by the same company for the same company. This study is concealed.

Since January 2007 no B767 was ordered by an passenger airline. In 2008 no 767 was ordered at all. During Farnborough airshow 2 new more fuel efficient engines PW4000-100 Advantage70 and GEnX were offered for A330. For commercial airlines B767 is not as fuel efficient as A330.

Air Force rated the KC-45 to be more efficient than KC-767. GAO rejected Boeing’s objections on that point.

“PLUS since you can operate a greater number of KC-767AT at each airfield & at airfields that can not operate the KC-30 at all or only at reduced take-off weight, …”

And at all these tiny little airfields you got amazing fuel depots?

Try to name one little airfield with a fuel depot sufficient for tanker operations where a A330 can’t operate from but a B767 can.

A330 takeoff with more load from any given runway length than B767. Aircraft Load Ratings (ALR) for both planes are nearly identical.

MHalblaub,

Have you even read what I posted? “over simplified analysis which does not quite model how the KC-767AT &/or KC-30 would actually operate”

Commercial airlines are not tankers. Don’t confuse commercial PER PASSENGER cost/efficiency with aircraft fuel cost/efficiency. ESPECIALLY given the realities of hoe much fuel & cargo tanker ACTUALLY carry most of the time. ;) And do not confuse the commercial airline market with USAF tanker operations.

There is no question that the A330-200/KC-30 DOES burn more fuel per hour than the 767-200ER/KC-767AT (even when carrying the same load much less a greater one) & over the life of the KC-X, that difference DOES add up to BILLIONS of dollars. The only question is how many BILLIONS of dollars more it adds up to.

The PW4000-100 Advantage70 could be fitted to 767s…

You need to read the GAO report again. And keep in mind just how limited the GAO is on what it can & can not sustain a protest on. Not sustaining on a particulart point IS NOT the same as rejecting said point. ;)

Tanker operations airfields are not little & being tanker operations airfields they have fuel depot sufficient for tanker operations (otherwise they would not be tanker operations airfields). BUT not all tanker operations airfields are HUGE & not all can support aircraft as large &/or as heavy as the KC-30.

BOEING 767-300ER (MTOW = KC-767AT)
Flexible Pavement ACN
Category A: 51.9
Category B: 57.4
Category C: 70.6
Category D: 92.1
Rigid Pavement ACN
Category A: 46.8
Category B: 56.3
Category C: 66.9
Category D: 76.2

AIRBUS A330-200
Flexible Pavement ACN
Category A: 61.5
Category B: 66.7
Category C: 77.7
Category D: 105.1
Rigid Pavement ACN
Category A: 52.2
Category B: 61.1
Category C: 72.4
Category D: 83.6

The KC-30 can only carry more payload (fuel or otherwise) from airfields which can support it with a take-off weight of ~450,000 lbs (& do not claim to know the exact figure) or more, anything less than that & the KC-767AT can carry MORE.

pfcem, I’m going to hand you a gift of sorts because I really do believe a split buy would be an optimal combat, life-cycle (vs. KC-Y and Z), and jobs/competition solution.

http://​www​.leeham​.net/​f​i​l​e​l​i​b​/​B​o​e​i​n​g​A​F​A​B​r​i​e​f​.​pdf

This briefing graphically depicts some of what you continue to say about ramp space on the ground. It is exaggerated, to be sure, but you could certainly make an argument for having a mix of KC-767s at some airfields and KC-45As at others depending on airfield size and distance from the battlefield.

I would then argue to use the KC-45A and KC-10s to aerial refuel the KC-767s closer to the fight to save fuel on the ground for fighter and other aircraft take-off fuel.

Now that I handed you a gift, I’ll take some of it back lest you claim it makes the case for a pure KC-767 buy.

Looking at the slide where it depicts a 1800′ long and 1050′ wide ramp, it shows 27 KC-767s fitting vs. just 14 KC-45A. Well for starters, that’s just dumb because even the picture shows another row of KC-45A would fit by simply hanging the tail over the edge of the concrete.

So now with 27 KC-767 and 21 KC-45A. lets say you only have 1/3 in the air every 8 hours due to crew rest and maintenance. That means either 9 KC-767s or 7 KC-45A are flying at any given time. That means 1,818,000 lbs of fuel for the nine 767s vs. 1,715,000 lbs of take-off fuel for the seven 45As. Not much difference right?

Wait, the nine 767 aircraft will burn 12,000 lbs/hr for the 8 hour shift or 96,000 lbs per aircraft which is 8,640,000 lbs for all 9 aircraft over the 8 hour shift.

The KC-45A with 2 fewer aircraft will burn just 8,400,000 lbs of fuel over 8 hours with 7 aircraft each burning 15,000 lbs/hour.

SOooo, it seems the seven 45As will retain 240,000 lbs of fuel (8,640,00–8,400,000)that the nine 767s would burn…thus freeing an additional 240,000 lbs of fuel to go to refueled aircraft.

Arne’t numbers fun? Point is, both companies can manipulate numbers all day long. Why not manipulate numbers in a way to show that we can buy both aircraft and benefit from the strengths of each.….

Correction in my hurried math above. It should have been 864,000 — 840,000 = 24,000 lbs difference.…not 240,000 lbs.

It still comes out as less fuel consumed by fewer KC-45A using questionably high fuel burn rates for that aircraft and questionably low ones for the KC-767.

It also may indicate a capability to support the same forward mission with fewer KC-45s at some airfields to free others to ferry fuel from farther away to avoid running out.

A couple of key points have been missed in comparing the two Tankers.

- The KC-45 is built and is flying. The major tasks are to integrate the US military avionics and the boom — both are non-developmental items.

The proposed 767 version has never flown. It is a combination of a 767–200; 767–300; 767–400 with military avionics and a new boom.

- The KC-45 Boom has been built and is now in flight test. The proposed Boeing boom is a new design, has not been built, and no where close to testing

- The MILCON argument is disingenuous. Current Hangers (Nose Docks) were built to accomodate KC-135s and B-52s. Neither the 767 or KC-45 can fit. However, truth be know, the majority of routine maintenance is performed on the flight line — not in Hangers.

- Parking: Boeing’s counter argument uses peacetime safety critieria in a wartime environment. The USAF used the classified criteria for A/C parking during evaulation. Therfore, it found no major discrepancies between the number of 767 and KC-45 that can park on the same ramp

- Runways: Both are Heavyweight aircraft (E class) — therefore, both must use the same length, width runways to operate on. So, the real operationally relevant question is how much fuel can each take-off with — the KC-45 wins this contest.

- Boeing showed its arrogance to the USAF by refusing to provide the cost data to justify its price per plane — on the position that it was commerically properitary. The USAF had to estimate the basis of Boeing’s cost proposal. Northrop fully substantiated it costs per plane. If you were managing this program, which contractor would you want to deal with — one who is straight forward and factual or one that says “Trust me, but I can show you the proof.”

So, if you were a USAF decision maker — what would you pick — a plane and a boom that is flying, has demonstrated test data, factual pricing or a PROMISE from Boeing.

I wouldn’t trust Boeing period. On a project where I worked with them, they made up numbers, lied, and demonstrated a general disinterest in doing a proper job. These weren’t airplane builders, but Boeing the company did a poor job of engineering and seemed only to be interested in generating billable hours.

pfcem:
Commercial airlines are not tankers. Don’t confuse commercial PER PASSENGER cost/efficiency with aircraft fuel cost/efficiency. ESPECIALLY given the realities of hoe much fuel & cargo tanker ACTUALLY carry most of the time. ;) And do not confuse the commercial airline market with USAF tanker operations.

So the “Conklin & de Decker” study can’t be applied to tankers?
Try to provide numbers about what “tanker ACTUALLY carry most of the time”.

pfcem:
The PW4000-100 Advantage70 could be fitted to 767s…

Did Pratt & Whitney or General Electric offered a new engine for B767?

pfcem:
AIRBUS A330-200
Flexible Pavement ACN
Category A: 61.5
Category B: 66.7

My sources:
http://​www​.tc​.gc​.ca/​C​i​v​i​l​A​v​i​a​t​i​o​n​/​I​n​t​e​r​n​a​t​i​o​n​a​l​/​T​e​c​h​n​i​c​a​l​/​P​a​v​e​m​e​n​t​/​D​o​w​n​l​o​a​d​s​/​D​E​C​_​B​1​.​pdf
http://​www​.tc​.gc​.ca/​C​i​v​i​l​A​v​i​a​t​i​o​n​/​I​n​t​e​r​n​a​t​i​o​n​a​l​/​T​e​c​h​n​i​c​a​l​/​P​a​v​e​m​e​n​t​/​D​o​w​n​l​o​a​d​s​/​D​E​C​_​A​.​pdf
(A330-200 (Configuration 2))
Both planes nearly need the same bearing modulus or subgrade bearing strength.

Cole,

Yes you COULD make an argumanet for a split by but you would look like a fool doing so.

The reason being is that the KC-767AT trumps the KC-30 as a medium intra-theater tanker refueling intra-theater operations due to Maximum On Ground (MOG) & other basing limitations issues AND the KC-10 (or new equivalent — as in KC-Y) trumps the KC-30 as a large inter-theater tanker refueling inter-theater operations due to (despite its smaller size) 110,000 lb greater fuel capacity.

Quite simply the operational limitations of the KC-30’s size outweigh the potential benefits of its size. ESPECIALLY when you realize the fact that the KC-767AT is more than capable enough to meet the USAF’s needs/requirements for a medium intra-theater tanker AND that the majority of the time the KC-30’s additional capacity will not even be utilized.

Nice to know that by simply ignoring the rules you can fit more KC-30 at some bases than you can by following the rules. And what do you do if the parking ramp area is say 1500′ x 1000′? Note the different wingtip clearance difference, the IFARA unrealistically used 25′ for all…

The problem with your math is that 7 KC-30 can’t do the same job as 9 KC-767AT, those two extra booms will refuel notably more aircraft in the same amount of time &/or take significantly less time refueling the same number of aircraft. Note that the VAST MAJORITY of aircraft can’t receive fuel at 1,200 gal/min & even those that can, can’t during the entire refueling process. And of course the majority of the time neither the KC-767AT nor the KC-30 would tranfser the maximum amount of fuel they possibly could.

LOOK– All the arguements are basically trumpted. Despite winning the contract, and the Boeing competition being loudly applauded in both Japan and Italy (sarcasm)- Italy’s tanker is 3 years late, Japans can’t fly yet. Boeings offering is going to win because the decision is now in the hands of the political aviation experts (more sarcasm). Lets see who now will get stock options or employment at Boeing this time.

Radarnav,

No, the US spec KC-30 is not built and is flying (the 1st airframe has been assembled but has not yet been configured as a tanker). While the Australian A330 MRTT is closer to the US spec KC-30 than the Italian or Japanese KC-767s are to the US spec KC-767AT NEITHER are the US spec KC-X offers.

MILCON is not just hangers…AND as far as hangers go, the KC-767AT WILL fit in any hanger that can accommodate the KC-10 or C-17 & the only dimention which could prevent the KC-767AT from using some (but not all) B-52/KC-135 hangers is the height of the tail.

The Air Force had complimented Boeing for the “unprecedented” level of cost information it had supplied in the KC-X competition, then turned around & instead treated the company’s airframe cost/price information as if it were a military-defense product.

one more negative comment if I may. Forget the dream of a split contract. This will double the cost the Air force pays logisticaly accross the board. This is going to be an all or nothing.

I happen to know that pfcem is a Boeing mole that goes on these message boards to spue the company’s own baseless propaganda. pay no attention to him

You can’t take someone serious when they are on the company’s payroll.

MHalblaub,

The Conklin & de Decker study used a hypothitical “typical” flight profile & average of 750 hours per year for 40 years. That makes the mathematics MUCH simpler but real world operations don’t always follow a predicted/intended average…So while the fuel cost difference is unlikely to actually be ~$30 billion it may very well not be THAT far off.

Average fuel offload per sortie.
Operation Desert Storm: 47,500 lbs
Operation Allied Force: 48,700 lbs
Operation Enduring Freedom: 75,400 lbs
Operation Iraqi Freedom: 60,800 lbs

Some commercial 767 airliner have enginse that are physically larger then the PW4000-100 Advantage70 so fitting them to a 767 would be no problem if desired.

Those graphs are confusing you, The A330-200 & 767-300ER are NOT as close as you think.

http://​www​.tc​.gc​.ca/​C​i​v​i​l​A​v​i​a​t​i​o​n​/​I​n​t​e​r​n​a​t​i​o​n​a​l​/​T​e​c​h​n​i​c​a​l​/​P​a​v​e​m​e​n​t​/​D​o​w​n​l​o​a​d​s​/​A​L​R​_​T​a​b​l​e​_​e​.​pdf

…the difference becomes more appearant when using a more modern system…

http://​www​.eddh​.de/​x​-​f​i​l​e​s​/​d​l​_​f​i​l​e​s​/​a​c​n​-​t​a​b​l​e​s​.​pdf

What is a typical aerial refueling profile…hours flown per sortie, distance flown from base, number of aircraft refueled, etc., if not classified?

Reason I ask is your average fuel offload per sortie figures form past conflicts seems to indicate:

A) We have more tankers than we need, or
B) Our tankers do not stay up long enough

But what we have done in the past becomes irrelevant when you add the new KC-X capability to top off other refuelers prior to returning to base. That new capability should radically change how tankers operate. More ferrying of fuel to other tankers on station should occur. More ferrying of fuel should result to C-17s that land at even smaller airfields to offload fuel to ground armor, F-35B and helicopters/V-22.

Past stats don’t indicate future potential or advantages for larger aircraft…and you still have the air bridge requirement, and greater distances of the Pacific theater to consider.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/northrop-grumman-kc-45-tanker-boom/story.aspx?guid=%7BF4DFF9E1-BCFA-47DF-A83B-6D8D7F7D0A9B%7D&dist=hppr

Northrop Grumman KC-45 Tanker Boom Successfully Completes In-flight Contact With AWACS Aircraft

Big new tankers
They fly and fuel today
Not mere drawings

My, my. No wonder the AF acquisition process has been taken over by OSD if the confusion and backbiting relfected here are indicators of source selection issues. Mr. Young isn’t about to give the AF the right to make this decision and no matter what the outcome, if prior to 20 Jan 09 or so, it will be reviewed by the Obama administration because it’s about jobs at home. Keep smiling all you Boeing and EADS moles.

pfcem,

Your Conklin & de Decker “study” just uses 24 % without any further explanation. This percentage is Boeing sent! The rest of the study is also nonsense. Both aircrafts operate at hight takeoff weights (TOW). Therefore the Airbus will take up about 30 % more PAX, cargo or fuel. The whole study ignores this fact. You can do 30 % more and pay for that 24 % more. What a bad deal!

pfcem:
“Average fuel offload per sortie.”

This single value says nothing.

First you have to know the average load at takeoff. Air Force usually don’t stress its retirees with fuel loads up to MTOW.

Next the distance to station.

After that loiter time.

The last number I really miss is the remaining fuel back at base.

Are your numbers just for KC-135? Please try to provide some for KC-10. Nearly the whole KC-10 fleet was involved. I doubt therefore that a big tanker was unnecessary.

pfcem:
“Some commercial 767 airliner have enginse that are physically larger then the PW4000-100 Advantage70 so fitting them to a 767 would be no problem if desired.”

B767 engines:
CF6-80C2B7F: fan diameter 93 in
PW4062: fan diameter 94 in
RB211-524H: fan diameter 86 in

PW4170: fan diameter 100 in
GEnX: fan diameter 105 in

pfcem:
“Those graphs are confusing you, The A330-200 & 767-300ER are NOT as close as you think.”

ALR is between 3 % and 10 % higher for A330-200 compared to B767-300ER
ACN is between 13 % and 24 % higher.

pfcem:
”…the difference becomes more appearant when using a more modern system…”

Just like using A330 or B767?

@all:
Something to read.
http://​www​.latimes​.com/​n​e​w​s​/​o​p​i​n​i​o​n​/​l​a​-​o​e​w​-​h​o​r​n​e​r​2​3​-​2​0​0​8​j​u​l​2​3​,​0​,​1​3​5​1​0​2​5​.​s​t​ory

Good link MHalblaub,
I think Charles Horner would know what the Air Force needs more then Boeing employee pfcem.

Another interesting read:

The $40 billion contract was initially awarded to Northrop in February. It was reopened earlier this month after the U.S. Government Accountability Office backed a protest from Boeing that claimed the Air Force’s bidding process was sloppy, finding fault especially with the way it communicated to competitors what they wanted.
But the Air Force is nonetheless satisfied with the Northrop-Airbus offer, and industry insiders are expecting the Pentagon’s revised proposal request to again favor the characteristics offered by the Airbus plane — to the chagrin of Boeing.
“They’re happy with the selection criteria, and they will make that very clear in the new proposal, and that will [upset] Boeing because they missed what the Air Force wanted,” said a former Air Force official familiar with the tanker program, who declined to be named because he’s not authorized to speak on its behalf.
The Air Force said it liked the larger aircraft — a converted A330 — around which Northrop-Airbus based its offer. But Boeing’s offer, built on a 767, was widely seen as a way for the company to salvage a program that’s begun to wind down, the former official said.
Boeing may try again with 777
Some industry experts expect Boeing to now offer up its larger 777 model, something the aircraft maker has so far declined to comment on. It’s possible the company won’t offer the model, however, because it carries a bigger price tag due to its popularity among commercial aircraft operators.
In terms of lifecycle costs, the 767 offer is on par with the A330, though the Air Force may extend its definition of lifecycle to 40 years from 25, which could help Boeing’s position.
“We continue to believe that the KC-767 is the right tanker for the Air Force mission, but we need to wait and see what the amended request for proposal says,” said a Boeing spokesperson.
“It appears the Pentagon’s default process is to fix the process and then award the contract to Northrop Grumman again,” said Loren Thomson at the Lexington Institute, a Washington D.C. think tank.
Backing him, J.P. Morgan analyst Joseph Nadol, fresh from the Farnborough Air Show last week in Britain, said executives at both companies appear to have doubts that Boeing’s KC-767 can clinch the contract.
“It appears more and more likely to us that [Northrop] will ultimately retain the tanker program after a re-bid,” Nadol wrote in a Monday note to investors.
The GAO ruling in favor of Boeing was a slap in the face for the Air Force, which had said repeatedly that the tanker procurement process had been done by the book. Now the Office of the Secretary of Defense will manage the bid, aiming to make a decision by the end of the year.
Though the contract would represent only about 3% of Boeing’s overall revenue when the tanker reaches full production in the next decade, a win for Airbus would give its European rival a toehold in the U.S. by establishing a manufacturing facility in Alabama.
“For Boeing, the tanker is important because it would create a platform to keep an international tanker program alive, as well as support volume on the 767 line,” according to a recent note form Bernstein Research.
“The 767 is increasingly important because of the likely need to support 787 customers with lower-priced 767s as interim lift capacity, given significant delays to the 787 program.“
Boeing could file another protest, and it is likely to find something mismanaged in the process as the rush to a new deal leaves little time to fix the original problems, said Lexington’s Thompson.

So it’s pretty apparrent that when Boeing does lose in December they will file another protest and cry to congress. It’s sad to see that instead of offering the warfighter the best platform they could, they are just trying to offload the 767 to keep the line alive. Shame on Boeing.

What the joke is its not just about the aircraft cost but the upgrade and repair to the bases this new Aircraft is suppose to be stationed at. One of the Tanker base I am familiar with will need to have all new hangers and ramps and runway upgrades. How in the world is that suppose to be good stewardship of the tax payers money?

Yeah right, let’s not build bigger, better, more capable aircraft because all we have are small hangers and inadequate runways.

“one more negative comment if I may. Forget the dream of a split contract. This will double the cost the Air force pays logisticaly accross the board. This is going to be an all or nothing.“
——————————
If the USAF is willing to spend $3 billion a year buying 15 KC-X aircraft from one manufacturer…why can’t it consider buying 20 aircraft a year for $4.5 billion and splitting it at a production of 10 for each manufacturer.

Make the Boeing fuel arguments to knock that down to $4.4 billion. Make the NG/EADS argument that the KC-45A can substitute for more KC-767s or C-17s for other missions at far less fuel cost to save one $100 million annually.

So the question then becomes can the USAF afford a $4.2 annual tanker bill? Well I see Gen Schwartz saying already that he thinks we should buy more F-22s. That’s an additional $3 billion a year. I see Gen Schwartz saying we might increase F-35 production from 48 per year to 100 a year. That would cost twice as much annually.

Isn’t there a USAF leader who can shift money around effectively in the right priorities in some sort of compromise? I saw Hillary Clinton yesterday rose the issue of Title 10 of the U.S. Code saying domestic industrial base requirements is a requirement for consideration.

I agree, except in this case the industrial base for tanker production would be doubled…and we would be making all the tankers (and parts) for our allies to buy and train on. Novel idea…that we spend an extra $1.2 billion a year to produce the same tankers that our Western buddies may use for aerial refueling their F-35s some day.

And the remaining money would be saved by not having to endure this hassle one more time in 10 years when the larger, more complex KC-Y comes around. Just buy more of the same two aircraft.

That’s right. US Air Force never used an aircraft bigger than a B-17. Can you imagine the costs for all the new hangars and ramps!

Boeing is also to blame. Boeing sold lately 2 C-17 to the UAE. The Arabs are still searching for two big tents. The King have big political problems because he tried to conceal several acres of desert beneath an apron.

Does anybody know how expensive it will be to operate an aircraft no commercial airline operates anymore? I think this will happen to the B767 about 10 years compared to A330.

Cole,

The “Average fuel offload per sortie” numbers indicate the opposite of what your suggest.

A) The number of tankers you have available is of greater importance than how much fuel each tanker can carry/offload.
B) Our tankers spend way to much time & fuel flying to & from their refuely orbits and should instead operate from closer bases so as to not needlesly waste so much time & fuel…

Yeah, sending a tanker to refuel another tanker makes a lot of sense. ;) Note that there are comparatively few times where it is useful but most of the time it is a total waste.

What past stats indicate is that in the real world we don’t even require the full capacity of the KC-135 most of the time.

The advantages of larger aircraft pale in comparision to their disadvantages. That is why for intra-theater operations the KC-135 is superior to even the KC-10 despite the KC-10 154,000 lb greater fuel capacity…

The KC-Y will be used to fulfill the air bridge requirement MUCH more so than the KC-X.

IF the USAF/DOD thought it could get Congress to agree to $4+ billion a year for tankers rather than ~$3 billion a year it would. At any rate you WAY underestimating the cost of a split by. Although I do agree that we SHOULD be able to find another $ billion hear or there for whatever we need it for.

MHalblaub,

The 24% number used by the Conklin & de Decker study came from industry data, NOT from Boeing (except for that no boubt some of the industry data used to determine the 24% number came from Boeing).

I already explained the problems with the study. Even thought the KC-30 CAN carry more than the KC-767AT, the MAJORITY of the time it won’t.

Average fuel offload per sortie tells you THE MOST IMPORTNAT fact, & that is, typicallly, the average sorte does not offload that much fuel. IF you ever bothered to listed to a tanker General or crewman, they have explained why the numbers are so comparatively low. BECAUSE THE CRITICAL FACTOER IS/WAS THE NUMBER OF BOOBS RATHER THAN THE AMOUNT OF FUEL EACH TANKER COULD CARRY. If you think you can fulfill the same demand for aerial refueling with half as many tankers carrying twace as much fuel each you are VERY sadly mistaken. The result would ba a lot of aircraft running out of fuel waiting in line for their turn…

The numbers are for the ENTIRE fleet. The KC-135 just happens to fly SO many more sorties than the KC-10 (because we have/had more of them AND they are better suited for the majority of the sorties) that the KC-10 doesn’t effect the overall that much.

You are confusing total engine/nacelle size with fan diameter. ;)

Thanks for demonstrating that you do not know what the ALR/PLR & ACN/PCN numbers mean. Here is the simplest way I can explain it. If an aircraft’s ARL/ACN is greater than an airfield’s PRL/PCN, the aircraft can not operate at that airfield without weight restrictions.

With all due respect to Gen. Charles Horner, he is wholefully uninformed & misinformed.

Jack,

I am not a Boeing employee. I am just a well informed citizen who has followed the USAF’s tanker recapitalization program since well before 9/11/01.

It really is pathetic how so many uninformed & misinformed people completely ignor everything the USAF said & did prior to ~2005/2006 when it was FORCED by Congress to conduct a “competition” between two so very different competators & thus was FORCED to alter its criteria (& reality itself) in order to make the noncompetative KC-30 competative JUST SO THAT EADS WOULD COMPETE. The “selection” of the KC-30 over the KC-767AT can only be explained by one of two things. Either the KC-X source selection team forgot what the USAF really needs & wants and forgotten that the alternate reality created to make the KC-30 competative is NOT reality…OR…the KC-X source selection team simply bowed to the intense political pressure to chose the KC-30.

Don’t confuse the DOD KC-X oversite team & the KC-X source selection team with the DOD/USAF as a whole. ;)

With all due respect to Gen. Charles Horner, he is wholefully uninformed & misinformed

Lol!Once again a Boeing employee showing a total lack of respect for the men and women in uniform (active duty & retired). Oh yeah we all know that you are the one who is misinformed.

But the Air Force is nonetheless satisfied with the Northrop-Airbus offer, and industry insiders are expecting the Pentagon’s revised proposal request to again favor the characteristics offered by the Airbus plane — to the chagrin of Boeing.
“They’re happy with the selection criteria, and they will make that very clear in the new proposal, and that will [upset] Boeing because they missed what the Air Force wanted,” said a former Air Force official familiar with the tanker program

It really doesn’t matter any way because the Northrop tanker will obviously win again come December.

And if Northrop-Airbus does win again, then Boeing will be awarded the contract after 20 Jan 09. Senatory McCain won’t be there to save it for Northrop this time.

And if Northrop-Airbus does win again, then Boeing will be awarded the contract after 20 Jan 09. Senatory McCain won’t be there to save it for Northrop this time.

Enlighten us GENIUS on how McCain SAVED it for Northrop? Northrop did not bid when Boeing was busted first time around. And if Obama does win he is not going to just award the contract to Boeing for Boeing’s sake.

PCFEM seems to think that he knows what they Air Force needs and wants when it’s obvious they want the Northrop tanker, and they WILL get the Northrop tanker. You can post your Boeing issued data and numbers all you want but you will still fail to get anyone to come into your fantasy world.

Amen brother

Chris,

I listened to what the USAF said prior to 2004 when it was forced by Congress to have a competition which forced it to alter its criteria for the sake of making the KC-30 appear competative so that EADS would compete (since it said it would not compete for a contract it could not win).

I listened to what the official government documents clearly indicated and what BOTH tanker Generals & crewmen said (both publicly & privately) & CONTINUE to say.

Unfortunately the KC-X source selection team & the DOD KC-X oversite team appear to completely ingored all that…

The USAF does not want the KC-30, it (as it had stated so clearly) wants the KC-767. But the USAF has not been in direct control over the decision since 2004. The KC-X source selection team IS NOT the USAF.

“They’re happy with the selection criteria, and they will make that very clear in the new proposal, and that will [upset] Boeing because they missed what the Air Force wanted,” said a former Air Force official familiar with the tanker program, who declined to be named because he’s not authorized to speak on its behalf.
The Air Force said it liked the larger aircraft — a converted A330 — around which Northrop-Airbus based its offer. But Boeing’s offer, built on a 767, was widely seen as a way for the company to salvage a program that’s begun to wind down, the former official said

The Air Force wants the Northrop Tanker, Many people within the Air Force have stated this, General Horner even said so. You continue to look at things in Boeing tinted glasses while the rest of the us are living in reality

Dear pfcem,

Just read the first page of the Conklin & de Decker “study” and you’ll find the 24 % originate from another “study” by Conklin & de Decker for Boeing.

pfcem:
“The 24% number used by the Conklin & de Decker study came from industry data, NOT from Boeing (except for that no boubt some of the industry data used to determine the 24% number came from Boeing).”

You know this older “study”?

pfcem:
“I already explained the problems with the study. Even thought the KC-30 CAN carry more than the KC-767AT, the MAJORITY of the time it won’t.”

But that is what the “study” by Conklin & de Decker implies: the KC-30 carries more. You can’t have it both ways at the same time. You can’t argue at MTOW one plane guzzles “24 %” more and in the next sentence your argue the bigger aircraft never operate that way.

pfcem
“BECAUSE THE CRITICAL FACTOER IS/WAS THE NUMBER OF BOOBS RATHER THAN THE AMOUNT OF FUEL EACH TANKER COULD CARRY. If you think you can fulfill the same demand for aerial refueling with half as many tankers carrying twace as much fuel each you are VERY sadly mistaken.”

Try the Navy refueling system. It’s sufficient for any fighter aircraft and you can refuel 2 aircrafts at time. Be more specific. It’s not the raw number of refueling stations you have. What really counts is the number of refueling points on station.

pfcem:
“The numbers are fr the ENTIRE fleet.”

You know the fleet mix? Your numbers are therefore even less useful. With your raw figure it’s hard to understand why Air Force didn’t want a KC-737 or a KC-320.

pfcem:
“You are confusing total engine/nacelle size with fan diameter. ;)

Please tell that General Electric, Pratt & Whitney or Rolls-Royce plc. I used their informations for a proper comparison of fan diameter.

pfcem:
“Thanks for demonstrating that you do not know what the ALR/PLR & ACN/PCN numbers mean. Here is the simplest way I can explain it. If an aircraft’s ARL/ACN is greater than an airfield’s PRL/PCN, the aircraft can not operate at that airfield without weight restrictions.”

So you’re a civil engineer? You can operate an aircraft with ACN greater than PCN. Some airports allow it. They just charge higher fees. Problem is not the static load it’s the dynamic load. Aircrafts have to reduce speed on apron to compensate higher weight (F=ma).

You can operate a KC-45 on every ramp a KC-767 is allowed to operate on. You just have to repair your apron a few years earlier.

pfcem:
“With all due respect to Gen. Charles Horner, he is wholefully uninformed & misinformed.”

Only Boeing knows what Air Force needs!

pfcem:
“I listened to what the USAF said prior to 2004 when ” Darleen Druyun was in charge.

pfcem fails to understand that the needs of the Navy and the Air Force are going to change and have changed from lets say the last 10 years. The Air Force needs a platform that can be flexable, that can adapt to the needs of the service as they change. The KC-45 clearly fits the bill. The ability to carry cargo and passengers is a HUGE perk (no matter how much you try to spin it negatively) an air wing commander was quoted as saying “with the KC-45 you can transport an entire air wing with fuel and support personel and equipment, refuel the fighters enroute to their destination anywhere in the world. You simply cannot do that with the Boeing Tanker.” That speaks for itself.

Actually Jack, you need to revisit the USAF tanker program and what they originally…(and up until half way thru the proposal review)…continued to state was their intention: A replacement for the KC-135.

That meant the same size/footprint/offload capabilities in PHASE 1 of the contract. Not a bigger KC-10 type of replacement that wasn’t supposed to come until PHASE 2 and 3 of the contract.

If the USAF wants the bigger version now…then Boeing should be allowed to put forth the KC-777. It would be superior to the KC-45 in EVERY respect. Now, Northrop and the USAF both know that a KC-777 would be far behind in development compared to its rival, so I’m sure the KC-45 would still win PHASE 1 based ONLY on that fact. However, Boeing should be selected in PHASE 2 and 3 of the tanker program.

The Frenchies and Gerwomen should not benefit in any way from a US military contract, especially one this strategic and lucrative. Not only did they refuse to back us up in Iraq, they went out of their way to undermind our efforts. They contribute only minimal forces in Afghanistan and the Gerwomen refuse to even put their troops into combat.

To reward them with a $35B contract for behaving in such a manner is truly sickening to this US tax payer.

Contract proposal is just that! The Government employees decided what would be best for the money for our military. As long as both sides met the minimum criteria for the contract then they both qualify. The old saying that all of our equipment are made by the cheapest bidder is still true today. Now the best quality for the $$$ is the key for success in today’s environment. Northrop Grumman thinking and planning ahead for the future concepts is showing which company employees have the military needs in the forefront of their mines. See if the Aircraft contract is done right, there won’t be a second contract or a third. This one will take care of the Air Force and all flying vessels in America for many Decades to come. I say don’t let the companies re-bid instead just re-look at the original offer from all companies that qualified confirm that there was no errors or assumptions made by either party the contractor or the government representative. .

schlappy,
Boeing could’ve offered the 777 instead of the 767. Its not like they didn’t know what Northrop was offering! They clearly wanted to force the 767(a dying production line) on the Air Force as many defense insiders have stated OVER and OVER and OVER again. Boeing was arrogant and thought they knew what the Air Force wanted instead of the Air Force itself.

Sclappy writes “The Frenchies and Gerwomen should not benefit in any way from a US military contract, especially one this strategic and lucrative. Not only did they refuse to back us up in Iraq, they went out of their way to undermind our efforts. They contribute only minimal forces in Afghanistan and the Gerwomen refuse to even put their troops into combat.”

And the winner of the most Juvenile post of the day goes to.….The aircraft is going to be built in Alabama, not France. This has nothing to do with Iraq or Afghanistan.

The Air Force said it liked the larger aircraft — a converted A330 — around which Northrop-Airbus based its offer. But Boeing’s offer, built on a 767, was widely seen as a way for the company to salvage a program that’s begun to wind down, the former official said.
Boeing may try again with 777
Some industry experts expect Boeing to now offer up its larger 777 model, something the aircraft maker has so far declined to comment on. It’s possible the company won’t offer the model, however, because it carries a bigger price tag due to its popularity among commercial aircraft operators.

Boeing is screwed aither way if they offer the 767 they’ll lose, If they offer 777 they lose. and you can bet they will file another protest.

Saw Gen. Schwartz mention a possible commercial aerial refueling contract that may fly in addition to KC-X purchases.

With a split buy, potential contractors to include Boeing and NG/EADS, interested in the commercial fee-per-fuel contract could build additional aircraft for that, and overseas sales, to enhance production quantities and make the respective factories more productive. NG/EADS also says they will build freight versions of the A330 in Mobile, as would Boeing (if anyone will buy them).

We ante up $153 billion in tax rebates as an incentive to the economy. Now they are talking about another $15 billion for temporary road construction jobs. How about a “measley” extra billion+ a year to start a competing aerospace factory in the south that may create upwards of 40,000 U.S. jobs paid for by doing something as simple as reducing the F-35 buy from 110 a year back to 90 a year.

Keep in mind that a split buy producing 20 aircraft a year at $4.5 billion would cost $13.5 billion over 3 years for 60 aircraft in contrast to 4 years and $12 billion for 60 sole source aircraft. That’s not much difference in cost and it accelerates the buy to retire the KC-135E earlier if not immediately…same argument being made to accelerate F-35 purchases from original 48 up to 110 annually.

Chris
After the Air Force’s abortive try to use the 767, whether you agree with it or not, check out the competition history on Boeing’s request for a waiver on WTO provisions and McCain raising his objections to Secretary England and the result. It was arguably the right thing to do depending on whose side you’re on. I’m staying away from campaign contributor issues purposely.

An Obama “award” wouldn’t be for Boeing’s sake as much as keeping the jobs in the US. He has been rather protectionist you know. Read the latest issues of The Economist or even the NYT. On the other hand, who knows what he’s promised the Germans or the French recently?

My bias is toward getting the right decision and I trust the current group at the top to do the right thing. I’m not sure about the next group though, the FNGs so to speak.

dsueii,
If I want news the last place I would go is the NYT. What don’t you understand about the Northrop plane being assembled in AMERICA, yes that means AMERICAN jobs. So on the basis of keeping jobs in AMERICA, giving it Boeing for that purpose alone clearly doesn’t float.

MHalblaub,

Yes the 24% number came from a previous analysis dated November 12, 2007. Using airline industry data, NOT FROM BOEING! Boeing contracted Conklin & de Decker Aviation Information to do the analysis but Conklin & de Decker did the analysis, NOT BOEING.


To determine this impact, an analysis was accomplished, using published data, to alculate the additional fuel consumption and the resulting extra cost incurred by a fleet of 179 Airbus 330–200 when compared with the Boeing 767-200ER where both fly similar commercial mission profiles, both fly 750 hours per year over a 40 year service life and both are perated at or near their maximum take-off gross weight.

As I have already said the analysis too simple to accurately determine the true cost difference & therefore the final numbers are innacurate BUT IT DOES clearly demonstrate that a cost difference exists but a MUCH more complicated analysis would be required to obtain a more accurate number.

Operation Desert Storm:
256 KC-135s and 46 KC-10s
In Desert Shield, tankers flew 4,967 sorties and 19,089 hours, refueled 14,588 receivers, including 5,495 Navy and Marine aircraft, and offloaded 68.2 million gallons of fuel. Tankers surpassed this effort during the six weeks of Desert Storm when they flew 15,434 sorties, logged 59,943 hours, refueled 45,955 aircraft and offloaded 110.2 million gallons of fuel. Approximately 20% was used for Navy and Marine receivers.

Operation Iraqi Freedom:
149 KC-135s, and 33 KC-10s
http://​www​.iwar​.org​.uk/​n​e​w​s​-​a​r​c​h​i​v​e​/​i​r​a​q​/​q​u​i​c​k​-​f​a​c​t​s​.​htm

What is missing is that the numbers are the TOTAL/AVERAGE. The fuel demand was by no means constant. There were times when the demand (& resulting per sortie offload) was higher than average & times when the demand was lower. BUT IT DOES CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE THAT ON AVERAGE WE DO NOT EVEN USE THE FULL CAPACITY OF THE KC-135 MOST OF THE TIME. Even the KC-135s landed with fuel still in the tanks (& not just the KC-135’s own emergency resever).

http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?NSIAD-94–68
Take particular nore to Figure 1: Comparison of Used/Unused Fuel at Three Tanker Bases (documant page 5; pdf page 7).

OK:> IT IS THE NUMBER OF AIRCRAFT YOU CAN REFUEL AT A TIME THAT OF GREATER IMPORTANCE THAN HOW MUCH FUEL EACH TANKER CAN CARRY/OFFLOAD.

General Electric, Pratt & Whitney or Rolls-Royce all know quite well that engine nacelle size (& nor fan diameter) which is the limiting factor as to what engines can & can not fit on a particular aircraft (some engines are more “compact/space efficient” than others).

Sorry but Darleen Druyun couldn’t blow her nose [exaggerating to make a point] without permission from her bosses. She was never in charge of anything her boses did not giver her authority over. She had no part in the decision to lease KC-767s, her job was to negotiate the details of the lease with Boeing AFTER THE CHOICE TO LEAST KC-767s HAD ALREADY BEEN MADE. And you do realize that she left the USAF in November 2002…

Jack,

Actually I DO know that “the needs of the Navy and the Air Force are going to change and have changed from lets say the last 10 years”. BUT some needs havn’t changed & won’t change for the foreseeable future. One of those needs is for a MEDIUM (not larger than the KC-10) tanker to operate from small airfields close to the fight in order to provide aerial refueling in the best & most effecient way. WE DO NOT NEED TO REPLACE THE KC-135 BECAUSE THE KC-135 LACKS CAPACITY BUT BECAUSE THE KC-135 CAN NOT FLY FOREVER! Now we would like the KC-135 replacement to have better take-off performance & greater airlift capacity BUT NOWHERE IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT THE CAPACITY OF THE KC-30 IS WHAT IS NEEDED. We need the KC-135 to not be some bigger than KC-10 behemoth with capacity that will seldom EVER be utilized & requires BILLIONS of dollars in infrastructure improvement just to be able to do what the KC-135 does as well as the KC-135 does it.

The KC-767AT is flexable & can adapt to the needs of the service as they change AND IT FITS THE EXITING REQUIREMENTS. When you need the most fuel offload, the KC-767AT can deliver more than 25,000 lbs than the KC-135R & when you need to utilice it as a cargo transport it can carry 3–4+ times as much as a KC-135 & 1–2+ times as much as a C-17.

What you & all the other EADS/KC-30 Kool-Aid drinkers fail to realize (or deliberately ignore) is that the extra capacity of the KC-30 comes at HUGE costs. Costs which far outweigh the extra capacity that will seldom be utilized anyway.

I don’t know of any air wing commander who ever said such a thing but if any did they would be wrong, the KC-767AT can do ALL THAT.

By the way, the USAF has issued a Cease and Desist Order against referring to the KC-30 as the KC-45.

Jack and Chris…niether of you have your facts straight.

A) The plane is not being “built” in America…its is being “ASSEMBLED” in America. The Frenchies and Gerwomen (and Brits) will be building it and then sending it over for assembly. Why do you think they chose Alabama??? Cheap, non-union and uneducated labor force to simply follow assembly instructions. The bulk of the parts and technology is coming from Europe and that’s where the bulk of the $$$$ will go. Nice job wanting to see the Euros make all the profit and give the scraps to the American taxpayer…the one’s who are funding the program.

B) Boeing was told from the get-go that a KC-767 size would be given just as much preference in the key criteria as the larger EADS offering…(and I don’t care who they’re partnered with, the aircraft is an Airbus EADS platform)…but the USAF lied. They gave all the “pros” to the larger aircraft without deducting points for being too large to fit in 80% of our hangers and operate from 60% of our runways.

Thank God for the GAO and thank God for the firing of Wynne and Moseley, so that we can have a FAIR re-bid on this flawed and corrupt contract award.

*Oh, and Chris…I call’em as I see’em!!!!!

Pappy Schlappy blurts out: A) The plane is not being “built” in America…its is being “ASSEMBLED” in America. The Frenchies and Gerwomen (and Brits) will be building it and then sending it over for assembly. Why do you think they chose Alabama??? Cheap, non-union and uneducated labor force to simply follow assembly instructions. The bulk of the parts and technology is coming from Europe and that’s where the bulk of the $$$$ will go. Nice job wanting to see the Euros make all the profit and give the scraps to the American taxpayer…the one’s who are funding the program.“
—————————-
Choice as I see it:

A)$35 billlion to save 35,000 overpaid union employees at roughly $1 million a job?

or.…

B)$40 billion to save 35,000 Blue State boys… too dumb to move out of the rain forest or Kansas…PLUS another 35,000 jobs for us good old boys who know better than to pay so much for a house that it gets foreclosed on.

Seems pretty apparent which choice creates the most jobs for the dollar…and which provides an effective USAF solution in lieu of an overly-expensive future KC-Y and KC-Z.

You may now return to your xenophobic cave Schlappy, co-habitated by those Taliban boys too afraid to compete with other ideas and cultural norms.

Maybe that’s why us southern dummies get the $4 billion new foreign-owned steel mills on top of Hyundai and Daimler plants, while you union-loving yahoos struggle to produce U.S. steel for unionized car manufacturers producing second-rate vehicle designs…cuz thats all they can afford to produce profitably after grossly overpaying your union high school graduates.

BTW, my wife is half-Gerwoman and sufficient woman to co-produce a Valedictorian daughter and subsequent Magna Cum Laude Biochemistry college graduate who hopes to attend Med school a year from now. Ya’ll come back now Schlappy, but don’t let the screen door hit ya on the way out you stupid sumbitch.

A)$35 billion to save 35,000 overpaid union high school graduates at roughly $1 million a job?

or….

B)$40 billion to save 35,000+ Boeing employees PLUS another 35,000+ new jobs, and a new competing industry in the south.

Seems pretty apparent which choice creates the most jobs for the dollar and competition for the future…and which provides an effective USAF solution in lieu of an overly-expensive future KC-Y and KC-Z.

You may now return to your xenophobic cave Schlappy. You really lucked out because Colin Clark apparently wouldn’t print what I said the first time.

Chris,
I know how you feel about the NYT but my MO is “know thine enemy.” It’s only one news source of dozens I use. So where are your news sources that you can’t recall the World Trade Org aspects or McCain’s involvement in the competition phase?

It “floats” for many more reasons than you’re willing to admit to as well as MORE jobs here. Schlappy is correct on that score. It also floats because it would make Obama look good and stay true to his promises (to date). I realize the man who stands for change often changes. McCain, on the other hand, would probably intervene once again in the event of a Boeing selection.

I do think it would have to be a 777 though based on an input from a friend (below) but then I guess Obama wouldn’t have to intervene. Here’s that “informed” opinion by an AF Col retired and ex-Boeing executive.

“The 767 is at least 20 years old, and the 330 is nearly the same generation as the 777 only about 5 years earlier. I think the AF, if they succeed, will can the 767. While the 777 is a far better proposal, if they decide not to go with it or if the RFQ requirements don’t fit, then the challenge is over. The 330 wins quickly over the 767 while the 777 is a no brainer victory over the 330. If they eliminate the 777 (either the AF or Boeing) the bidding is over.…they de facto select the Airbus…what a shame.”

I don’t know whether he’s correct but he usually is. His opinions are his own. There’s a lot of point counter point above and people who claim to “know” this or that and I don’t claim to know more than anyone including you, I just know what I read (yes, from the NYT too).

However the thing that dismays me is why anyone would not want the best aircraft for the USAF’s needs to be produced at home? Why don’t you tell us why you wouldn’t want an aircraft made entirely in America? Are you a global popularist who is afraid we’ll be cut out of future commercial opportunities abroad?

If the Air Force and Young decide on the EADS offering, I’ll accept it as the best choice for the AF but I still hope a US-made platform can compete fairly and win. Even a Boeing one.

Semper Fi.

Oh yeah Cole…well, I think you lucked out that he still posted your useless and clueless post.

Boeing’s offering is the BEST choice for this nation…not a Euroturd plane ASSEMBLED by a bunch of toothless, inbred, troglodytes who’s only qualification is their experience ASSEMBLING a bbq grill from Wal-Mart or their grand daddy’s moonshine still.

pfcem-I don’t know of any air wing commander who ever said such a thing but if any did they would be wrong, the KC-767AT can do ALL THAT.

I’m sure, what do you know all these guys personally? you lose your credibility with every post.

A) The plane is not being “built” in America…its is being “ASSEMBLED” in America. The Frenchies and Gerwomen (and Brits) will be building it and then sending it over for assembly. Why do you think they chose Alabama??? Cheap, non-union and uneducated labor force to simply follow assembly instructions

SCHLAPPY As a proud American I’m sad to see your lack of sense for the European comunittee. You clearly know nothing of either of these programs finacials. Your anti-European setiment shows your lack of education in defense matters. The sensitive avionics ARE NOT being made in Europe. The airframe is being made in europe and is being assembled in the US, alog with it’s GE engines, your comments about Alabama and it’s citizens show that you clearly have nothing decent to offer on these boards.

Pcfem,
I see that we agree to disagree. As much as I want you to see things my way(the truth) I respect your opinion. I know I’ve been a little rough at times but you have always been respectful. Lay off the Boeing juice though :) . In all honesty I just want the best plane for our warfighters if they find it to be Boeing’s so be it. I just happen to think it would be Northrop’s. But thanks for being respectful.

Seems like you waterlogged boys up in the northwest have a bit of trouble “assembling” KC-767s for the Japanese and Italy…not to mention 787s, and 747s that don’t come apart in flight.

I’ll admit there is an argument that EADS is subsidized. But I kind of like the idea that European nations would be subsidizing U.S. jobs.

Thought it would be interesting to compare AL and WA in a number of areas.

Starting with education, WA tied for the second highest average ACT score in the nation at 22.5 along with OR, Conn, NH, and Oregon. But prior to gloating, the average percentage in that group taking the test was only 9–15% of total high school graduates. Smaller percentages taking the test tend to point to the smarter students in the overall graduate pool.

Don’t believe me? In WA, where many more students took the SAT than in AL in 2007, the AL students scored a far higher 563/556 on reading/math versus a lower WA 526/531 mean score. 80% of those students taking the SAT in AL said their parents had a Bachelors or Master degree (and 56% answered that family income was over $80K)compared to just 59% of those taking the SAT in WA (42% said family income was over $80K).

AL average ACT score at 20.2 with 76% of high school graduates taking the test, was comparable to Colorado and Illinois where nearly all graduates took the ACT. The national average was 20.9 in 2004.

If all states graduates took the ACT or SAT we would have a better idea of the true relative rankings, which would probably show AL about average nationwide.

Turning to income, using government figures, here it is no contest.

WA.….….…..Average weekly income
All private.….$830–875
Manufacturing…$1170–1215
Information.….$1800

AL.….….…..Average weekly income
All private.….$700
Manufacturing…$850
Information.….category not listed

Think that union influences drive up the manufacturing job weekly income??

Perhaps that’s why German company ThyssenKrupp Steel decided to build a new $4 billion steel mill in lower Alabama near Mobile…just as NG/EADS looked at the same area, as did Berg Pipe…also out of Germany. And these are potentially good paying jobs despite the lack of union influence…in the $50-75K range in ThyssenKrupp’s case. So Schlappy, perhaps rather than badmouthing our European friends, you should consider their potential to expand the U.S. manufacturing base…and some Boeing employees should consider moving to Mobile, AL to dry off and find more affordable housing.

Hey all you also seem to forget that the Boeing 767 airframe, part of it is made overseas and brought to the US to be ASSEMBLIED. So no matter which choice part of both airframes are manufactured OVERSEAS.

Also to the KC-767 offered by Boein is what we call a Frankentanker. The boby is a 767–200 with 767–300 wings, Cockpit, flap and ailerons from a 767–400. They are not even sure the aircraft will fit together. So the Air Force will have to wait and see if it fits and if it does not, then what will happen?

I beleive the Air Force saw a plane that will do more than just carry fuel. After all this was a KC competation and KC means Cargo and Tanker. If the Air Force want just a Tanker then they should have called it a “K” competation not a “KC”

Oldest391,

No, nobody is forgetting that ~15% (by economic value) of the KC-767AT is foreign content. BUT that foreign content is only PARTS– the KC_767AT is still MANUFACTURED in the US. More than 40% of the KC-30 is foreign content & the ENTIRE AIRFRAME is manufactured overseas. Hell even if NG wasn’t doing the final assembly & systems integration & we were buying the KC-330 directly from EADS it would be 15–20% US content JUST FROM THE GE ENGINES.

All of the varies 767 varient componets fit together. Aside from length, the fueselage is the same. Where it attaches to the fuselage, the –300F wing is the same as all –200 & –300 varients. The –400 flight deck is a more modern flight deck VERY similar to 777 flight decks but physically fits in the same space as the “standard” 767 flight deck. Physically, the only parts which COULD present a problem is fitting the –400 flaps to the –300F wings but even that is easily “fixed” (if it even needs to be in any way) during the manufacturing process by manufacturing the KC-767AT wings with –400 flap stucture. There are no “new” physical airframe parts to the KC-767AT — just fitting the best parts of different 767 varients together.

Sorry but KC does not mean Cargo and Tanker. The K means tanker & the C (which does mean cargo) is from the tanker being based on a cargo airframe (767-200LRF).
http://​www​.driko​.org/​u​s​d​e​s​_​k​.​h​tml

Don’t confuse the KC-X source selection team with the USAF. The only thing they “saw” is that when you alter reality so that the KC-30 is competative then it LOOKS competative & its advantages outweght its disadvantages. Back in the REAL WORLD the KC-30’s disadvantages FAR outweigh its advantages (which would seldom be utilized anyway — EVEN WHEN THEY COULD) SO much so that EADS would not even compete because it KNOWS it would lose.

KC-45 is tested now on over 100 aircraft, including AWACS, F-16s, F-1s, F/A-18s and C101s. It has a state of the art ARBS boom that the old boom operators are raving out, with modern fly-by-wire technology incorporated and enhanced controllability with an automatic load alleviation system. This greatly aids the boom operator — as well as the receiver aircraft’s pilot — during refueling operations. Boeing can’t get a 767 with a working boom to a point of test for 2–5 years with their backlogs. Boeing should be required to make the Japanese and Italian booms operational before even being considered for the KC-X contract. KC-45 is tested and ready to roll into production in the state of the state of the art Mercedes plant.

Cole — Boeing IDS is the one whose bidding the contract, not Boeing BCA. IDS is located in St. Louis, not Seattle.

Peter,

First of all the USAF has issued a cease & desist order against calling the NG/EADS proposed tanker the KC-45. The USAF’s next tanker will be called the KC-45 but that tanker may not be the NG/EADS proposed tanker.

The NG/EADS proposed tanker has not even been built yet much less tested. The first 2 SDD airframes have been built but HAVE NOT yet had any modification to turn them into a tanker. If the NG/EADS proposed KC-X tanker were the same as other A330 tankers EADS has built then the NG/EADS KC-X SDD cost & time would be ZERO…

Boeing has already delivered 4 “operational” KC-767 (2 to Italy & 2 to Japan — although just as EADS has yet to build a tanker to its KC-X configuration/specification, the Italian & Japanese KC-767s are of a different configuration/specification than the KC-767AT Boeing proposed for the KC-X). The first KC-767A Tanker Transport for Italy completed its first in-flight fuel offload Mar 7, 2007. The first KC-767 to be delivered to Japan transfered fuel to a F-15E AT NIGHT on Jan 26, 2008.

Boeing has a 767 backlog that would prevent it from completeing the first KC-767AT SDD airframe?

“Cole — Boeing IDS is the one whose bidding the contract, not Boeing BCA. IDS is located in St. Louis, not Seattle.“
————————
But they will be built in Everett, WA and Kansas…no doubt with substantial foreign content…just like that A-10 work that went to South Korea instead of the competitor who would have built in South Carolina.

That is the hypocrisy of it all. Boeing does it all the time. NG does it all the time. It’s a global economy. A U.S. job helps workers regardless of who owns the company. Wouldn’t we rather have a foreign-owned company and retain jobs, than send all manufacturing jobs overseas? Are all the St. Louis Budweiser workers going to quit now that a Belgian company owns them?

BTW, I note that most Everett workers are well over 40 and have great retirements awaiting them. Younger workers can move…or compete globally like every other 21st century worker.

But if you recall, I’ve said from the start that a split buy makes the most sense politically, operationally and from a jobs-creation standpoint…for everyone but perhaps the USAF in terms of cost (still cheaper than a KC-X, complex KC-Y/KC-Z approach) and logistics. Unfortunately, the genie is out of the bottle, if KC-X and the DDG-100 contract are any indication. I see Sen Kennedy is raising a stink up his way over that destroyer’s cancellation.…

I also found a 2004 Defense Science Board report that said that the 17,000 hour average of the KC-135R fleet is manageable with the 39,000 hour projected life and corrosion maintenance. The DC-10–30 could be converted to a KC-10 as the Dutch did for $45 million. It also mentioned that we originally built KC-135s at a rate of 75–100 annually compared to current plans of 15 KC-X per year. A split buy producing 20–25 aircraft a year could be paid for by decreased F-35 production or ending the F-22 and C-17 lines.

The last point illustrates how USAF priorities have changed. Now they would rather produce 110 very expensive F-35s annually (compromise anyone?)and additional costly F-22s…while other lift priorities are sidelined, despite evidence that lift is a primary USAF mission in all envisioned conflicts while air-to-air is not. Lockheed Martin loves the white scarf mentality…and they get the lift work too…but how about the remainder of the defense industrial base. Title 10 of the U.S. code??

Cole,

No hypocrisy. Boeing actually MANUFACTURES & ASSEMBLES 767s in the US. Yes it get parts from suppliers overseas but that is the way things are done today. IF it were demanded that the KC-767AT be 100% American made, Boeing COULD do it. The KC-30 is & would be MANUFACTURED by Airbus/EADS in Europe & then (in the case of the KC-X) flown to the US for “final assembly & conversion into/completion as a tanker”. Manufacturing & final assembly ARE two different things! And the difference between ~85% US/15% foreign content & ~58% US/42% foreign content is HUGE (on the order of $9.5–11 billion).

A split buy is a VERY BAD outcome (even though it may be the only way to move forward without more protests). IT WOULD NOT DO ANYTHING TO REMOVE THE KC-Y & KC-X — IT WOULD SIMPLY SPLIT THE KC-X! The KC-30 is not only a poor KC-135 replacement (because it it too big) it is ALSO a poor KC-10 replacement (because it does not carry enough fuel).

The problem with converting existing aircraft (such as DC-10s) is that they WILL NOT last as long as new-build aircraft & will be more expensive to maintain.

WITHOUT fighters & bombers THERE IS NO NEED FOR TANKERS! AND without F-22s & F-35s, NOTHING else can operate (the F-15s & F-16s WILL NOT last forever). By what measure are the F-22 & F-35 “very expensive”?

Dear pcfem,

no KC-767 is operational in any Air Force. Italy has zero KC-767 at the moment, just a B767 CTA is delivered.
http://​cencio4​.wordpress​.com/​2​0​0​8​/​0​7​/​0​2​/​t​h​e​-​b​o​e​i​n​g​-​7​6​7​-​d​e​l​i​v​e​r​e​d​-​t​o​-​t​h​e​-​i​t​a​l​i​a​n​-​a​i​r​-​f​o​r​ce/

pfcem:
“All of the varies 767 varient componets fit together.[…] The –400 flight deck is a more modern flight deck VERY similar to 777 flight decks but physically fits in the same space as the “standard” 767 flight deck.”

The –300 wing and –200 tail will have no problem to translate the input by an –400 flight deck?

The –300 wing will have wingpods. That is physically a different wing from any other B767 wing.

pfcem:
“http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?NSIAD-94–68
Take particular nore to Figure 1: Comparison of Used/Unused Fuel at Three Tanker Bases (documant page 5; pdf page 7).”

If this ratio is constant a bigger tanker could offload more fuel.

From your link:
“For example, our analysis shows that KC-10s were the most efficient Air Force tankers during Desert Storm, dumping almost no fuel and returning to base with the least amount of unused fuel-about 29 percent compared to almost 42 percent for the KC-135R.”

A bigger tanker got a even better ratio.

An interesting fact:
“This ‘available for transfer’ excludes the fuel consumed by the tanker during its mission and a 20,000-pound fuel reserve.”

KC-45 cease and desist does not apply to this blog. EADS has built two KC-X planes — prototype KC-45. These are flown and tested. The new EADS/Northrop advanced refueling boom has as of June 30 according to Janes, accumulated over 300 flight hours; logged over 60 separate contacts with an F-16 receiver aircraft; executed proximity, pre-contact and contact flight trials with five different aircraft — the F-16, F-1, F/A-18, C101 and the A330-based and now AWACS.

peter,

No, EADS has built two A330-200 airframes which are/were to be used as its 1st two SDD aircraft for its KC-X proposed KC-30. Only basic flight testing has been done on those airframes due to the stop work order being issued.

Say all you want about the EADS boom & what it has done so far. The fact remains that there is no operational EADS boom on ANY operational EADS A330 airframe & having an operational boom is in NO WAY a condition to being awarded the KC-X contract (that is what the SDD phase is for). While not the same configuration as the KC-767AT, there are 4 operational & FAA Certified (~1 year delay was due to obtaining FAA Certification prior to delivery) KC-767 with 5th generation Boeing booms — ALL of which have transfered fuel. Most people will/would take Boeing’s DECADES of tanker/boom experience over what EADS has done only in the last half decade.

pfcem said:”“For example, our analysis shows that KC-10s were the most efficient Air Force tankers during Desert Storm, dumping almost no fuel and returning to base with the least amount of unused fuel-about 29 percent compared to almost 42 percent for the KC-135R.”“
——————————-
You earlier mentioned that a split buy would not effect KC-Y and Z. Yet your quote above indicates value in the KC-10. So the Dutch solution of upgrading DC-10–30 to KC-10 for around $45–50 million would be a bargain while allowing a continued split buy of KC-767 and KC-30 to replace the KC-135E and R fleets.

If instead we buy something all new for KC-Y, the split buy production lines stops. THAT would be a bad outcome. Do a 60/40 split for each KC-X competition of 25 aircraft annually so that each manufacturer gets to produce either 15 or 10 annually to keep the competitive contract aspect intact.

MHalblaub,

Nice try but KC-767A Italy #1 [N767TT / 14–01 (cn 33686/912)] is opertational & KC-767A Italy #2 was delivered to Italy May 6, 2005. Just because htey have not yet been oficially delivered to the Italian Air Force DOE NOT mean they are not operational.

Figure 1: Comparison of Used/Unused Fuel at Three Tanker Bases

What part of UNUSED FUEL do you not understand?

Cole,

That quote is from the GAO, not me. And I will ask you the sam question I asked MHalblaub. What part of UNUSED FUEL do you not understand?

You are dreaming. A split buy would MORE THAN DOUBLE the (both yearly & total) program cost. And we STILL end up the the neither a good KC-135 replacement medium tanker nor a good KC-10 replacement large tanker KC-30.

Converting surplus KC-10s would be a costly short term solution to a long term problem.

What is so difficult about A KC-135 REPLACEMENT!

pfcem, unused fuel implies fuel that went into other aircraft, which sounds like efficiency to me. I hope we aren’t dumping fuel these days…which is the main benefit in being able to feed fuel from one tanker to another before heading home to a distant base.

I saw the GAO figures that showed average offload per sortie was in the 75,000 lbs. range for OEF. The greater distances (and probable B-52 loads) contributed to that. With KC-30, you end up being able to fly 1000NM, orbit for 5 hours plus, and still offload 75,000 lbs of fuel. With KC-767, you fly 1000NM, orbit for 3+ hours before turning around for home.

What don’t you understand about that?

I see the former Sec of the Air Force is saying a split buy makes sense. It costs more per year but you finish sooner with the larger annual buys…and it is politically acceptable.

25 aircraft per year means you get to 500 replaced KC-135R in just 20 years at roughly 4.8 billion a year. Add 40 converted DC-10-30s at 2 per year for additional annual $100 million and you are talking 4.9 billion a year times 20 years…or $98 billion. Oversimplified I’m sure, but you end up with 3 aircraft types, just like it is now logistically, and more capacity than the current KC-135/KC-10 mix.

Cole,

Unused fuel is fuel that was NOT transfered to other aircraft. If you bothered to read the entire document you would have learned that only a small portion of the unused fuel was dumped, MOST returned with the tankers. “Dumped fuel totaled about 12 percent of what was actually transferred to receivers, and 86 percent of the tanker sorties transferred less than 60 percent of their available fuel.” What this CLEARLY shows it that additional capacity over the KC-135 is NOT needed but what IS needed is a lot of booms in the air.

Orbiting for 5 hours to complete the same mission than can be complete in 3 hours is WASTING 2 hours worth of fuel. AND since you can operate MORE KC-767AT CLOSER to their refueling orbits, a fleet of KC-767AT doesn’t need to fly as many hours in order to complete the same missions.

Awarding contracts both to Boeing and Northrop Grumman and having each build new tanker aircraft for the Air Force at a rate of about 15 per year makes sense and should be considered as the way ahead to resolve the KC-X tanker program’s current legal impasse, former Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne told the Daily Report July 28. As for the higher costs of supporting two tankers lines, Wynne said, when asked, he would support applying some of the $5 billion in added procurement funds that the Air Force will reportedly receive in Fiscal 2010 to cover them. The problem is the $5 billion in added procurement funds IS ALREADY ALLOCATED, we would need billions in added procurement funds above that.

CAPACITY IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!! WE DON’T EVEN USE THE FULL CAPACITY OF THE CURRENT FLEET!!! As the TRS-05/MRS-05 indicated, what is needed is 500+ KC-135R equivalent. That is 500+ booms with capacity/fuel transfer vs range similar the KC-135R.

I didn’t say it correctly but obviously I knew that “unused fuel” was not a good thing and reflected either too much fuel carried at take-off or inability to transfer it all due to not enough customers on a given sortie, or running out of time/fuel to get home.

That is the problem I’m having coming to grips with KC-X mission requirements. For instance, I read the airpower mission summaries for the last week or so, and sure enough they hover around 45,000–60,000 lbs of fuel offloaded per sortie on average to just 3–5 receiving aircraft per refueler sortie. On one recent day, one unit did fantastic work and offloaded 1.01 million lbs in just 16 sorties, setting a new record, but even that only adds up to 63,125 lbs offloaded by each sortie. Three units supporting CENTCOM that day supported 2.6 million lbs in 48 sorties supporting 193 aircraft, or around 13,500 lbs per aircraft and 4.02 refueled aircraft per sortie.

So is the USAF trying to buy too large an aircraft even at KC-135R/KC-767 size, if it always comes back with unused fuel due to refueling so few aircraft per sortie?

http://​www​.manas​.afnews​.af​.mil/​n​e​w​s​/​s​t​o​r​y​.​a​s​p​?​i​d​=​1​2​3​1​0​7​724

So with 200,000 lbs of fuel possible at take-off, why is so little offloaded? Is it the distance from Kyrgyz Republic in this case? If so, that favors the KC-30. Is it that they are supporting a particular mission…vs. orbiting…and then return to base? If so that favors the KC-767 taking off with a lighter start load. See my point. There are circumstances where both aircraft can better support the mission.

As for money already being committed, sounds to me like the old truth of 48 F-35s per year has been replaced by a new truth of 110 F-35s a year. A compromise at about 85 F-35s per year would free funds for the 25 KC-X split buy aircraft scenario I mentioned.

The accelerated KC-X buy would reduce C-17 sorties and excessive flight hours supporting the war and save countless dollars due to far less fuel burned carrying lighter loads of 463L pallets, troops, and casualties overseas and to Germany.

pfcem,
Nice rationale for limiting fuel off-load capacity based on only 1 combat scenario.

I spent years flying intercontential missions and I can assure you that I drained every drop of available fuel from every available tanker. In fact, most heavy bomber missions required 4 Tankers for 3 Bombers outbound and the same number returning home.

Tanker requirements not only address in-theater refueling requirements, but the long haul requirements of Bomber, Cargo, and Fighter aircraft. As we return more combat units (USAF and Army) to the CONUS, the long haul deployment requires are becomming more paramount than in-theater refueling.

In fact, if you can reduce the number of Tankers needed in theater due to increased loiter and off-load capacity, there will be more Tankers available to establish and maintain the necessary “Air Bridge” from CONUS.

If you looked at a realistic scenario requiring Overseas deployment of USAF, USN, USA, and USMC combat units with the commensurate establishment of in-theater refueling, you will find that we never had enough KC-135s and KC-10s to do the job.

Awarding 2 contracts for 2 different airplanes will only increase the 40 year O&M costs for the Tanker fleet. Increasing O&M costs will reduce out-year procurement funding for more tankers, or more combat aircraft. Not a very wise use of our taxpayer’s money.

Cole,

You are making progress. I have said all along that the KC-767AT is more than what is needed & the “extra” capacity of the KC-30 is a waste & will seldom even be utilized — add to that the fact that the penalties due to its size & weight FAR outweigh any theoretical/potential benifit & it is CLEAR why the USAF rejected it during the tanker lease program. But as I said, the numbers I posted are the AVERAGE. No doubt some sorties were significantly below the average & some were significantly above the average. You HAVE to have a tanker fleet which can meet the PEAK demand, not just the average demand. PLUS you must keep an emergency reserve.

Just an example to try & explain it. Lets keep the distance out of it just to make it easy (obviously each tanker will carry the fuel it needs to complete the mission in addition to the fuel it has available to transfer). Note that the numbers are not meant to be realistic so much as “nice” numbers to work with so the not so mathematically inclined can follow along. Say you have a strike group of 20 fighters that need an EXPECTED 10,000 lbs each. So you send a group of 5 tankers to refuel them. That would make for 4 receivers @ 10,000 lbs each totaling 40,000 lbs for each tanker. BUT as a contingency in case something goes wrong where 1 of the 5 tankers is unable to make it to the refueling point each tanker “needs an extra” 10,000 lbs so that the 4 tankers that did make it can each refuel 5 receivers instead of the intended 4. But each tanker “needs” it own emergency reserve. Just for the sake of argument lets say that each tanker keeps a 10,000 lb emergency reserve so that would bring each tanker up to 60,000 lbs of transferable fuel. So in this simple example each tanker “needs” to carry 60,000 lbs of transferable fuel in for a mission which is only expected to require 40,000 lbs of fuel. Note how the 20,000 lbs of unused fuel at 1/3 the total transferable fuel carried is in the range of the AVERAGE unused fuel % during ODS.

No matter what the range is it favors the smallest/most efficient tanker which can accomplish the requred fuel offload at what ever the distance is. Looking at the AVERAGE fuel offload per sortie, the KC-767AT can accomplish this at a range of OVER 2000nm! Long range refuelling is a mute point anyway because that is NOT what the KC-X is for. It is a KC-135 (medium intra-theater tanker) replacement not a KC-10 (large inter-theater tanker) replacement. If you need to transfer 100,000+ lbs of fuel at 2000+nm, you use a KC-10 (or its eventual replacement).

Why do so many ignorant people keep bringing up the 48 F-35 per year thing as it that IS the full rate production number & anything/everything above that is an increase/acceleration. The 48 per year is simply the DOD saying it will not fund more than that until the F-35 has “proven itself”. It HAS BEEN the intent for the USAF to aquire 110 per year during full rate production in order to replace the F-16 in a timely manner (although in 2007 it was reduced to 80 due to budget constraints) but that an increase in its procurement budget is needed in order to do so.

Radarnav,

posted July 22nd, 2008 at 9:53 pm

Average fuel offload per sortie.
Operation Desert Storm: 47,500 lbs
Operation Allied Force: 48,700 lbs
Operation Enduring Freedom: 75,400 lbs
Operation Iraqi Freedom: 60,800 lbs

Thats the last FOUR “major” combat operations the US has been involved in — not “1 combat scenario”.

You can “assure” me all you want. What most tanker Generals & crewmen AND historical facts state is that MOST OF THE TIME even the KC-135s return to base with a significant amount of fuel in their tanks.

I have been one of the VERY FEW people talking about there being both intra-theater (best performed by medium KC-135-like tankers) & inter-theater (best performed by large KC-10-like tankers) tanker missions. We got by just fine prior to having the KC-10…But if you need to refuel bombers &/or cargo planes, USE THE KC-10 (or its eventual replacement) — THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE FOR. The problem for the KC-30 is that it isn’t as good at intra-theater missions as the KC-135R & isn’t as good at inter-theater missions as the KC-10. And as I & others have pointed out, we should take a look at the “medium intra-theater tankers” vs “large inter-theater tankers” ratio & increase the proportion of “large inter-theater tankers”.

YOU CAN’T REDUCE THE NUMBER OF TANKERS IN THEATER DUE TO INCREASED LOITER & OFF-LOAD CAPACITY! The number of tankers in theater is dictated (most of the time) by the number of booms you need in order to meet the demand by the number of receivers.

ENOUGH WITH THE AIRBRIDGE/DEPLOYMENT SCENARIOS ALREADY. THIS IS THE KC-X PROGRAM TO REPLACE THE KC-135!!! When it comes time to suppliment & replace the KC-10 THEN we can concentrate on the air bridge/deployment requirements/missions/scenarios. And the main reason why we have not had enough KC-135s & KC-10s to meet all requirements is because their mission capability rates have been so low — WHICH IS (along with the ever increasing maintenance costs) THE REASON WHY THEY SHOULD BE REPLACED BY NEW TANKERS SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.

I see you agree that a split buy is a BAD idea.

pfcem — Do not worry your Boeing head about this as it looks like the fix is in for Boeing if congress has their way. Let me ask you this is the KC-767AT even built yet? Answer is NO. Is the A330-MRRT which is what the KC-30 is based on built and flying — YES. The Boom that Boeing wants to use has not passed any flying test yet. The A330-MRRT is flying and passing gas. Does the 2 tankers Boeing sold to Japan have the Boom on it yet? Why are a lot of other countries buying the Airbus Tanker instead of the Boeing Tanker? I beleive the British just decided to buy the Airbus tanker instead of the Boeing Tanker. Wonder if they are smarted than we are.

pfcem:
Updates on the status of the KC-45 — Reducing program & technical risk prior to contract award — Can Boeing say the same thing?

Northrop Grumman KC-45 Tanker Boom Successfully Completes In-flight Contact With AWACS Aircraft
Company News Release
July 22, 2008

WASHINGTON, D.C. — July 22, 2008 — The advanced Aerial Refueling Boom System (ARBS) for Northrop Grumman Corporation’s (NYSE:NOC) KC-45 Tanker has performed multiple aerial contacts with an operational Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, confirming its ability to support large aircraft in U.S., NATO, and allied air forces.

The test mission fulfilled several key flight and program milestones for the KC-45’s all-electric, fly-by-wire Aerial Refueling Boom System, including sustaining one of the tanker-to-receiver aircraft contacts to simulate large offloads. The continued successful testing of the ARBS is further indication of the boom system’s maturity and readiness for the U.S. Air Force’s next generation KC-45 Tanker.

“The accomplishment of yet another key ARBS test program milestone is proof of the maturity of our aerial refueling capability and of the KC-45’s readiness to fulfill our promise to the U.S. Air Force and the joint warfighter,” said Paul Meyer, Northrop Grumman vice president and general manager of air mobility systems. “The Air Force has clearly stated they need this capability as soon as possible to replace the aging KC-135 fleet, and we offer the lowest risk, most capable solution now.”

The July 18 test used the exact ARBS configuration proposed for the KC-45. It was controlled by a former U.S. Air Force boom operator. The KC-45’s all-electric ARBS provides highly accurate, reliable in-flight refueling, with a maximum nominal fuel flow rate of 1,200 U.S. gallons per minute. Because this boom has the largest envelope of any available in the industry, both the AWACS crew and the boom operator were impressed with the relative ease and efficiency of the refueling operation — which replicated conditions of operational mission scenarios with the KC-45 boom and the large receiver aircraft. This follows previous in-flight evaluations that confirmed the ARBS’ excellent handling qualities with large receiver platforms along with smaller and faster combat aircraft that has included the F-16, F-1, F/A-18 and C101 in previous testing.

Modern fly-by-wire technology incorporated in the ARBS provides enhanced controllability and includes an automatic load alleviation system that greatly aids the boom operator — as well as the receiver aircraft’s pilot — during refueling operations.

“The ARBS is the cornerstone of the most advanced and mature Tanker in the world today and that’s exactly what we must provide to our American men and woman in uniform,” said John Young, CEO of EADS North America Tankers.

Northrop Grumman Statement Regarding Department of Defense Tanker Decision

Company News Release
July 14, 2008

FARNBOROUGH, England — July 14, 2008 — Northrop Grumman Corporation’s (NYSE:NOC) Tanker team announced today that all four initial tanker System Design and Development (SDD) airframes are scheduled for final assembly and initial flight testing by the end of 2009. The first two SDD airframes have been built and flown, and are awaiting modification to the tanker configuration.

“As we’ve always said, Northrop Grumman is ready now; and having all four SDD airframes ready next year shows our commitment to the U.S. Air Force, the Department of Defense and our Airmen who are currently forced to fly 50-year-old tankers,” said Paul Meyer, Northrop Grumman vice president and general manager of Air Mobility Systems. “While our competitor still has not built the tanker or boom system they offered — our configuration is built, tested and flying now — and has been selected by four other allied nations. Clearly our tanker is superior, offering better fuel efficiency, greater fuel offload and much lower risk. It’s won all five competitions against the 767.”

The first SDD airframe completed final assembly and conducted first flight in 2007, while the second KC-45 airframe performed first flight in May 2008. The initial KC-45 contract calls for four SDD aircraft before transitioning to Initial Low Rate Production.

pfcem,
It appears that the hard core Boeing supporters in Congress are getting their way. They (Rep Dicks and Rep Murtha) just inserted language in the DoD Appropriations bill that supposidely directs the USAF to re-evaluate the Tanker bid based on the original criteria. The secret is that this Committee language directs the USAF to change a couple of the evaluation criteria so that it clearly skews the evaluation process toward the 767.

If passed, GAME OVER. Crew dogs don’t get a say again

Old391,

You mean the recent bill that would basically make it law that the USAF/DOD follow the GOA ruling? Yeah, I guess you could say that if you HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RULES, the fix is in for the KC-767AT. ;)

Is the NG/EADS proposed KC-30 built yet? Answer is NO — the closest thing to it is the ONE similar but not identical Australian KC-30B currently SITTING ON THE GROUND awaiting the installation of its operational boom. There are FOUR KC-767 which is what the KC-767AT is based on built, flying & in various stages on operationability.

The boom that Boeing wants to use is an EVOLUTION of 5 generations of already operational booms. NO A330 airframe is flying with a boom which has transfered fuel — the EADS boom that has transfered fuel is on a A310, not a A330. Besides, having an operational boom is in NO WAY a requirement for the KC-X contract — the SDD phase is for developing & producing an operational KC-X boom.

Yes, BOTH Japan’s & Italy’s KC-767s have operational booms installed & have transfered fuel FROM THEIR KC-767.

Other contries are not the USAF, they have different requirements. And don’t be such a fool as to believe that every country that has “selected” the EADS tanker did so on merit.

No, the UK is not BUYING any tankers. ;)

As Old391 mentioned, Congress has emplaced language in the 2009 Budget requiring the DoD to consider job-creation and Title 10 U.S. Code requirements for maintaining the industrial base in the KC-X buy. These requirements state in Chapter 144 Major Defense Acquisition Programs under Part IV Service, Supply, and Procurement:

“The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe regulations requiring consideration of the national technology and industrial base in the development and implementation of acquisition plans for each major defense acquisition program.”

However, believe that somewhere it states that allied industrial base should be considered the same as that of the U.S. Therefore, a split buy OR NG/EADS buy would seemingly satisfy Title 10 requirements, and jobs would still be created in the U.S.

I also found this interesting in a CRS Report for Congress: “The USAF KC-767 Tanker Lease Proposal: Key Issues for Congress

“A May 2003 report prepared for Morgan Stanley calculated and compared the expected profit of the sale of Boeing’s KC-767 with other Boeing jet aircraft. The report finds that the sale of each Boeing KC-767 under the current conditions announced publicly by Boeing and the USAF would generate approximately seven times the profit of a single Boeing 737, the company’s most popular commercial airplane.”

It went on to mention that the KC-767 profit would be 3–4 times that of a commercial 767 based on a 2002 advertised price of the 767-200ER at $101–112 million. So it sounds like, back then, Boeing was trying to stick it to the taxpayer. Today, at nearly $200 million an aircraft for 15 aircraft (to get $3 billion a year…presumably including spares that will only get more expensive as the 1980s aircraft goes out of commercial use…why shouldn’t we believe that Boeing is trying to stick it to the taxpayer now, by offering a smaller ancient aircraft, while NG/EADS offers a larger modern one at about the same price?

In addition, I note that the Navy perceived it was not being supported by USAF aerial refueling in the Pacific and went out and contracted their own aerial refueling support which apparently costs half of that charged by the USAF. If a recent Op Ed piece in the LA Times is any indication, Boeing seems to believe it would use 1,000–2,000 fewer gallons per mission versus the KC-30. Why couldn’t additional savings be realized by leasing or pay-per-fuel services by smaller (737?) aircraft positioned throughout the world.

To reiterate other concerns:

- Navy contracts aerial refueling support and uses smaller aircraft to include F/A-18, so if 50-60K lbs. is the norm for offload, why doesn’t the USAF procure or contract an aerial refueler that supports that figure at 1000 NM radius?
– Increased use of smaller contract aerial refuelers would spare larger USAF-owned KC aircraft for airlift missions to spare C-17 and C-5 hours at greater fuel consumption/maintenance cost
– The bomber fleet was the primary reason for KC-135 aerial refuelers in the first place and remain on standby for dedicated support, and these supported aircraft do use up all available tanker fuel as Radarnav indicated…thus requiring a greater offload than the norm as witnessed by the OEF average of 75K lbs.
– More stateside and fewer forward deployed Army troops will increase air deployment requirements/distances
– Pacific distances require greater aerial refueling for all potential missions
The last bullet is due to this:
– Hawaii to South Korea: 3950 NM, to Japan-3360 NM, to Taiwan-4390 NM, to Guam-3315 NM
– Alaska to South Korea: 3280 NM, to Japan-3010 NM, to Taiwan-4060 NM, to Guam-3990 NM
– Guam to South Korea: 1550 NM, to Japan-1400 to 1500 NM, to Taiwan-1500 NM
– Darwin, Australia: 2920 NM to Japan

59 KC-10s with many in maintenance cannot begin to handle those distances alone and the implied mid-ocean orbiting required for the air bridge and operations from Guam/Australia. The increased capabilities/quantities of ballistic missiles and large numbers of aircraft with small numbers of bases will force are aircraft farther from some potential fights. These arguments call for far more aircraft with more fuel capacity to handle the larger distances while retaining large offload/reserve capabilities.

BTW Radarnav, I still favor a split buy and think O & M costs would be less than separate airplanes purchased for an all new KC-Y and KC-in outyears. Believe a KC-30 win also would be beneficial simply because the long term benefits of another U.S. aerspace competitor/producer would save both the taxpayer and commercial carriers far beyond the current KC-X program. The 787 and other future Boeing commercial work will keep Boeing plenty employed regardless of this program’s outcome. They (Boeing and IAM) just see the danger in Airbus getting a foothold on U.S. shores and right-to-work disrupting the union stranglehold.

Cole,
As an ole flyer and PM, I am not against a split buy if:
— Sufficient funding is provided to cover two parallel RDT&E, test, and production programs. If not, we will sub-optimize both aircraft.
— If the production runs are sufficient to cause ongoing competitive pricing and allow both players to amortize their infrastructure investments.
— If the operational requirements support a split buy and it is not a political compromise.

pcfem,
Your comments on the Northrop Tanker maybe correct, but can you point me to the news releases that shows Boeing flying the proposed 767AT and the proposed Boom?

Boeing’s proposal was for a unique 767, not one of the Japanese or Italian models.

Boeing’s proposal for the boom was a development effort then testing and integration.

Cole,

Thanks for showing you know nothing of markets. :)

Of course Boeing does not make nearly as much profit on each 737 as on each 767. Ford doesn’t makes as much profit on each Focus as it does on each taurus either…

PLEASE sombody show me how $131 for a KC-767 tanker which includes an estimated $40 million in tanker modification is NOT a smoking GOOD deal for the USAF.

What, you want to lease pay-per-fuel services KC-737s but leasing KC-767 was a bad deal?

As I have already explained, you need tankers that can meet PEAK demand, not just AVERAGE demand.

Once again you through out numbers withou having the 1st clue what they mean. THE KC-135 CAN HANDLE THOSE DISTANCE. And has been doing so for DECADES. Beside, that is whay many want to increase the proportion of large KC-10-like tankers in the future fleet.

You sure seem to know a lot about this aircraft considering that you don’t work for Boeing…Mr.
consultant.

BTW, I owned a small business for 13 years so I understand cash flow and markets…which is why I’m always trying to do the numbers…and yours seldom add up.;)

I will admit that $131 IF IT INCLUDES THE MODS does sound like a good deal. I’m then left wondering where the $3 billion annual bill for 15 aircraft comes from?

If the Navy says it costs half as much to go with their private deal, seek a similar contract for the routine low-risk, low-quantity missions and use your owned aircraft for the larger fuel quantity combat missions.

Does a 737 not get better mileage than a 767? That’s what you keep arguing right? Plus think of all the additional aircraft you can fit on the ramp!!;)

Radarnav,

Nobody has ever said that there are any KC-767AT flying today. BUT there ALSO are no NG/EADS KC-X proposed KC-30 flying today either. NG/EADS’s proposal was for a unique KC-30, not one of ANY other nation’s models.

The Australian KC-30B is not the same aircraft (similar & more similar to the NG/EADS KC-X proposal than the Italian &/or Japanese KC-767s are to the KC-767AT, but NOT the same) & it does not yet have an operational boom installed. Ehe two airframes which EADS has built that are/were intended to be its 1st two KC-X SDD aircraft have NOT even begun to be converted in tankers, they as bare A330-200 airframes.

Yes, Boeing’s proposed KC-767AT is UNIQUE for the KC-X but it is still a KC-767 varient in which every airframe component is currently flying & FAA certified. But that is the whole point, Boeing DID bring its “A game” & proposed a tanker tailor made for the KC-X requirements which are DIFFERENT from the requirements of ANY other nation.

And while Boeing’s proposed 6th generation boom has yet to be built, Boeing DOES have 5 previous generations of OPERATIONAL booms & the 6th generation boom is an evolution of its 5th generation boom, NOT an all-new fron scratch design.

Cole,

I don’t claim to know anything that is not public about either the KC-767 (& its variants) &/or the KC-30 (& its variants).

What numbers don’t add up?

The $131 million was the cost value of the KC-767 under the lease program. But some people complained that that was too high since under the best possible price a 767–200 airliner could supposedly be had for $120 million. But a KC-767 tanker IS NOT a 767–200 airliner…

737-700ER
Maximum Fuel Capacity: 6,875 gallons (26,020 L) No aux. tanks = 46,063 lbs
Maximum Fuel Capacity: 10,707 gallons (40,530 L) 9 aux. tanks = 71,737 lbs
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 171,000 lb (77,565 kg)
Maximum Range: 5,510 nm (10,200 km)
Wing Span: 112 ft 7 in (34.3 m) / 117 ft 5 in (35.7 m) with winglets
Overall Length: 110 ft 4 in (33.6 m)

737-900ER
Maximum Fuel Capacity: 7,837 U.S. gal (29,660 L) 2 aux. tank = 52,508 lbs
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 187,700 lb (85,130 kg)
Maximum Range: 3,200 nautical miles (5,925 km) — two-class layout, 2 aux. tanks
Wing Span: 112 ft 7 in (34.3 m) / 117 ft 5 in (35.7 m) with winglets
Overall Length: 138 ft 2 in (42.1 m)

757–200
Maximum Fuel Capacity: 11,489 gal (43,490 l) = 76,976 lbs
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 255,000 lb (115,680 kg)
Maximum Range: 3,900 nautical miles (7,222 km)
Wing Span: 124 ft 10 in (38.05 m)
Overall Length: 155 ft 3 in (47.32 m)

757–300
Maximum Fuel Capacity: 11,466 gal (43,400 l) = 76,822 lbs
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 272,500 lb (123,600 kg)
Maximum Range: 3,395 nautical miles (6,287 km)
Wing Span: 124 ft 10 in (38.05 m)
Overall Length: 178 ft 7 in (54.5 m)

See now why a KC-737 or even a KC-757 won’t cut it (we are talking less than HALF the fuel off load & HALF the unrefueled range of the KC-767). Even if you speculate that they could see a ~25% total fuel increase like the KC-767 (200,000+ lbs vs 160,000 lbs) that still puts a KC-737 at just under 90,000 lbs AT TAKE-OFF & a KC-757 at ~96,000 lbs AT TAKE-OFF. At ~60% fuel off load @ 1000nm (which is about what the KC-767AT & KC-30 do) that would be just 54,000 lbs & 57,600 lbs respectively. At ~75% fuel off load @ 500nm (which is BETTER than what the KC-767AT & KC-30 do) that would be just 67,500 lbs & 72,000 lbs respectively (remeber that these numbers as with a speculative 25% INCREASE over existing fuel capacity). And then of coarse a KC-737 or KC-757 would “suck” as cargo haulers…

It is about the RIGHT size tanker, not the smallest possible tanker.

Dear pfcem,

your spin is great.

The KC-767AT airframe, the B767-200LRF is yet to build. The airframe for KC-45 is already build. It’s the same airframe as for Australia.

Your unused fuel figures showed KC-10 returned on average with 29 % unused fuel (KC-135 42 %) while also refueled by KC-135. You can’t derive from that data a bigger tanker is a waste of capacity and not useful.

The unused fuel is due to bad logistics.

By the way, do you know that Emirates ordered 30 Airbus A330 lately? Emirates didn’t ordered the “more fuel efficient” B767. How many orders are there for B767 this year?

MHalblaub,

It is the EADS/KC-30 Kool-Aid drinkers like you who are spinning. I have never said that a KC-767AT or 767-200LRF airframe has been built yet. But EVERY part of the KC-767AT/767-200LRF airframe is currently FAA certified & flying on one or more existing 767 varients. Yes the NG/EADS KC-X proposed KC-30 airframe is the same as the Australian KC-30B airframe BUT the NG/EADS KC-X proposed KC-30 tanker IS NOT the same as the Australian KC-30B tanker — if it was the NG/EADS KC-X proposal would have ZERO SDD time & money. Where/what is the US content of the Australian KC-30B? ;)

THE UNUSED FUEL FIGURES ABSOLUTELY SHOWS THAT A BIGGER TANKER WITH GREATER CAPACITY IS A WAITE! We don’t even use the full capacity of the KC-135 & EADS/KC-30 Kool-Aid drinkers want us to replace the KC-135 with a tanker that is bigger than the KC-10!

No, the unused fuel is/was due to demand being such that the number of booms needed being greater than the amount fuel each tanker can/could carry.

Did you know that Emirates ordered 30 Airbus A330-300 lately because the routes they ordered them for could have a demand for 250–300 three-class passengers per flight? Beside, as I have said before, airliners ARE NOT tankers & there is no correlation between airline market requirements & USAF tanker requirements.

pcfem,
Off-loadable fuel is to Air Ops as Communication bandwidth is to C2 systems. Today’s operational requirements are dramatically exceeded in real-world ops.

So, if you can get a Tanker with more off-loadable fuel for the same effective price (BTW: The GAO did not refute the USAF’s MPC estimate), why not have the reserves for the “KNOWN-UNKNWONS” every warrior knows he will face in the future

Radarnav,

The KC-767AT DOES have more (>25,000 lbs across the 500-2500nm range expressed in the SRD) off-loadable fuel than required. The KC-30 IS NOT the same cost as the KC-767AT. Over the life of the program, the KC-30 could/would cost (due to higher opertional costs) more than KC-767AT by MORE than the projected $35–40 billion development & procurement costs. AND monetary costs are not the only “costs” that are higher with the KC-30.

pfcern, there are lots of factors that go into refueling, and it’s not as simple as one cost factor over another.

The thing that concerns me most is the plain simple scenario, that at it’s time of development the 135 was the best there is. When the U.S had plenty of bases in western Europe and it’s chief adversary was the Soviet Union.

In the 21st Century the two biggest countries comming of age are far far away from that scenario, with very little in the way of U.S basing available. Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean supporting operations to Afghanistan and Iraq is a case in point. Guam is too. tryuing to go into bat for the 767 as you clearly are your completely overlooking this very important point.

The U.S will have to maintain it’s capability as the pre-emininent force in the world, capable of sustaining operations over any distance. A runway can be upgraded, an Hangar can be built (who would have thought new hangars after being built 60 years ago would have been necessary, We never heared anyone complaining of No Hangars for C-5’s C-17’s or 747’s… Maintenance occurs chiefly on the flight line. So what about capital re-investment.

Not only must it offload fuel, but it must move men and supplies very quickly and efficiently, and in doing so these monetary costs you mention, for instance, neglect to say that not Only can the A330 frame carry significantly more Palletts that the C-17, but do so much cheaper. How does one factor that into the cost. Or it can perform both missions at the same time, how does that factor into the cost.

There are a lot of red-herrings here. I hate to say it, but who gives a damn about whether it costs more than the 767, in peacetime, when in wartime, fuel and logistics is what saves lives. Thats what has been to be planned for. Nobody’s complaining that the USAF doesn’t need a strategic tactical lifter in such numbers like the C-17, and a struggling C-5 fleet to do the rest, but in the sillyness of this tanker competition, thats what’s being happened. It doesn’t take much time nore money in the greater scheme of things for engineers to add more damned tarmac space. It does soak up aircrews however, and mechanics to keep more going because they do less. And it does cost billions to replace or find a replacement for ageing C-17’s. How does one factor that into the overall cost?

France is not where I would want my refueler to come from.They denied airspace to Reagan when he hit Lybia, recently did not support us when Bush attacked Iraq. Now, when we need parts for their refueler and they deny them–our fighters set on the ground. France is not a reliable friend to the U S.And the muslim population is quite large there​.My refueler would be American

Dave, I’d bet those “Red Herrings” are plentiful in Puget Sound, off Seattle since they are a Boeing/Aeronovali/JADC Consortium staple. Might account for why all their deliveries are late, “Gone Fishing, be back in a year or two”!

pfcem’s got all the Boeing/Aeronovali/JADC Consortium dialog down pat and continues to regurgitate it to no end. Hey, that rhymes with the word of the day:

Boinginate
Function: Verb
Etymology: North Western US & Boeing/Aeronovali/JADC Consortium
Date: 2008
: to habitually lie, cheat, bribe or steal if you really, really want to win

Both just make me sick!

Will,
Your concerns are a “Red Herring.” France is returning to NATO and the last time I checked we are a member of NATO. The French people recently elected a very conservative, pro-american government.

Beyond the airframe, the KC-30 components are from American firms — how do you think the number of new jobs gets to 44,000?

So, the argument that we can’t rely on France is only valid during the production phase. Given the international geo-political fallout, I doubt seriously the French Government or EADS would unilaterally breach a multi-billion contract with Northrop Grumman. The costs and impacts would be dramatic.

Given that American Aerospace companies sell 4x the amount of equipment and supplies (Multi-Billions) to European companies, the following item should be seriously factored into this debate:

If the Europeans view this decision as principally based on “American Nationalism,” then those politicians better figure out what to do when Europe retaliates and precludes US Aerospace companies from winning their contracts. Billions lost; tens of thousands of jobs lost in the US; and a new alliances formed by Europe with new Aerospace competitors. NOT SMART.

Radarnav, you make it sound like that international procurement spending will be squarely focused on Europe. In reality it’s just the opposite.

Radarnav points out: “So, the argument that we can’t rely on France is only valid during the production phase. Given the international geo-political fallout, I doubt seriously the French Government or EADS would unilaterally breach a multi-billion contract with Northrop Grumman. The costs and impacts would be dramatic.“
=========================================
Heck, we can’t rely on American workers to produce KC-767s. Can you say possible IAM strike in one month with another one potentially in December by the engineers?

This is one reason we need another competing company on U.S. soil. Otherwise, the unions continue to increase demands, and the taxpayer and airline passenger picks up the tab.

Cole,
did you know that KC-135’s CFM56 engines are half French made?

During First Gulf War the second largest European contingent was from France, with 18,000 troops.

France was right about the WMD.

The bombing of Libya was due to the Lockerbie bombing. France is not so far away from Libya like Britain. Just look up “Union for the Mediterranean”.

France isn’t an easy friend but still a friend.

Yeah but Cole, This is the Red Herring of the Debate.

If one is so concerned about competition only being from American Firms, why has the U.S Govt systematically allowed Boeing to buy out other large aircraft manufacturers in the U.S to the State’s own detriment.

There is little structurally different with the A-330 airframe, and when it heads to the U.S it will be fitted with refueling equipment. Advantageously for the A330 it’s manufacture is already up and running.

Whilst it is correct to say the U.S KC-45 won’t be the Same as the Australian KC-30, the differences are in internal configuration. It will have the exact same plumbing and Aerial Refueling boom, already in testing.
This boom is not functional on the A-330, pending clearance of the boom on the EADS testbed. That is to say, the aircraft with all the gizmos and gadgets to fine tune the boom. It is with ultimate reality that testing will commence on the KC-30 in well under a year to be cleared to operate with that airframe.

Boeings boom is not the same as on the Japanese 767’s which hasn’t been accepted by the JASDF yet, for whatever reason, it doesn’t really matter, if one is to pick fault with the KC-30, one must apply the same standards to the KC-767.

EADS is a very competent organisation, with highly skilled individuals. To insinuate that they are producing an inferior product or that Boeing is automatically capable of produjing a better airframe based on protectionism is insulting…

Dave,

Sorry but you are trying to fit the mission around the KC-X when the KC-X should fit the mission. THE MOST IMPORTANT & MOST OFTEN CONDUCTED MISSION is ferueling fighters & other attack aircraft at (preferrably) the shortest distances possible (so as to not waste fuel flying tankers to the refueling points).

ABSOLUTELY there are lots of factors that go into refueling, and it’s not as simple as one cost factor over another. That is what I have been saying the whole time & when you look at all (or most) of the factors, the KC-30 simply is the WRONG tanker for the USAF. It is BIGGER than the KC-10 but does not have the fuel capacity of the KC-10 & is SO big that its size & weight outweigh its greater capacity compared to the KC-767AT.

One of the biggest problems all these EADS/KC-30 Kool-Aid drinkers have is that all they look at is the MAXIMUM of what the KC-30 can do compared to the KC-135R or KC-767AT without having the first clue about how much the KC-X will ACTUALLY carry the VAST majority of the time. Who cares if the KC-30’s greater capacity gives it an advantage 10% of the time when 90% of the time its greater capacity is not utilized & it simply burns more fuel carrying the SAME DELIVERED PAYLOAD as a KC-135R or KC-767AT. THAT is the biggest Red Herring! The KC-X does not need to be 2–3 times the airlifter of the C-17 & the KC-X won’t be used as an airlifter THAT much (it is after all 1st & formost a tanker & is SUPPOSED to be a medium intra-theater KC-135-like tanker) & even when it is it will rarely be loaded to its full capacity.

C-5’s C-17’s or 747’s are not expected to operate from smaller airfields closer to the from (well the C-17 is compared to the C-5 & 747), that is why we have smaller aircraft like C-135s, C-130s, C-27 et cetera.

The KC-30 costs more in peacetime & wartime! It costs more to improve the existing infrastructure in order for it to do the job of the KC-135R, it costs more to operate & maintain & the VAST MAJORITY of the time it won’t do more than a KC-767AT.

I agree that it was unwise for the U.S Government have to systematically allowed Boeing to buy out other large aircraft manufacturers in the U.S. The U.S Government has done A LOT of unwise things to the detriment of the country.

The 767’s manufacture is already up and running & has been for considerably longer than the A330’s. The difference is that since Boeing tailor made the KC-767AT for the KC-X it has to integrate parts (ALL of which are already FAA certificed & flying on various 767 varients) while NG/EADS have to RECREATE a significant portion of the process in the US. Both of which have risks but neither of which are risks that have not been done before.

And actually, if one is to pick fault with the KC-767, one must apply the same standards to the KC-30. ;)

I agree that making satements based ONLY on protectionism is insulting as there is plenty to find fault with the KC-30 without it. One does not need to insinuate that they are producing an inferior product or that Boeing is automatically capable. BUT based on the comments made by those who actually operate &/or maintain them, in general, Boeing aircraft are of a higher quality & easier to maintain than Airbus aircraft — although even I take this with a grain of salt because in my own experience such things do at times come down to personal experience & preference.

pfcem asks, “Who cares if the KC-30’s greater capacity gives it an advantage 10% of the time when 90% of the time its greater capacity is not utilized & it simply burns more fuel…”

The warfighter cares, even if Boeing could care less about them. That 10% is what this combat system is all about, not your casual 90% peacetime, commercial, delay wracked Boeing schedule.

With the shame and anger Boeing has collected during this acquisition attempt they may as well just shutdown their defense operations and focus on delivering their commercial products on time for a change.

Today’s Non-Ethics Word: Boinginate
Pronunciation: \Bo-ing-i-nate\
Function: Verb
Etymology: North Western US & Boeing/Aeronovali/JADC Consortium
Date: 2008
Transitive verb
: to habitually lie, cheat, bribe or steal if you really, really want to win

pfcem said: “Who cares if the KC-30’s greater capacity gives it an advantage 10% of the time when 90% of the time its greater capacity is not utilized & it simply burns more fuel carrying the SAME DELIVERED PAYLOAD as a KC-135R or KC-767AT. THAT is the biggest Red Herring! The KC-X does not need to be 2–3 times the airlifter of the C-17 & the KC-X won’t be used as an airlifter THAT much (it is after all 1st & formost a tanker & is SUPPOSED to be a medium intra-theater KC-135-like tanker) & even when it is it will rarely be loaded to its full capacity.“
———————————
Found a RAND Study on multipoint aerial refueling that indicated that on Day 32 of Desert Storm, during a surge just prior to the ground war, 214 tanker missions offloaded an average of 79,439 lbs of fuel (17 million lbs. total!) to 1201 receivers. They showed actual missions from the Air Tasking Order, and as you can imagine the missions veried from tracks to anchorpoints and in numbers of aircraft supported. One thing was clear. The KC-10, with its greater capacity was allocated larger numbers of aircraft than the KC-135R.…even when they were fighters being supported.

You cannot generalize future aerial refueling needs based on lower average past offloads using the more plentiful, but less capable KC-135R.

In addition, you should assume that the KC-X will be used extensively as an airlifter to save C-17 and C-5 hours. Even in combat, I can envision the KC-X carrying 463L pallets from the states, flying to Hawaii, and then accompanying fighters to mainland (or island) Asia carrying both fuel and pallets. After all, if you are going to fly midway there to fly an anchorpoint orbit, it is just as far to return to Hawaii as to fly onward to Asia…so why not carry pallets in the process?

And the great thing is that the KC-30 can carry a substantial 40,000+ pound pallet load while matching the KC-767’s 200K lbs of fuel.…

BTW, don’t count me as a Boeing hater. They make great military and civil products, but in this case, they are just outperformed. A split buy should still be considered…if not by the D0D, then by Congress ala the F-35 second engine. That second engine, I read, may cost the DoD an additional $ 3.6 billion. Frankly, can’t imagine it adding any more than that to the lifetime $100 billion acquisition cost of the KC-X if KC-Y/KC_Z is abandoned and the program is accelerated from 15 to 25 aircraft a year in a 60/40 split buy.

BS_Buster,

No, the warfigher cares that he/she has the RIGHT equipment 90% of the time (not 90% peace time 90% ALL THE TIME war & peace) rather than equipment that isn’t any better & actually worse 90% but a bit better at doing things which are not even the primary purpose of the equipment. The KC-X is to REPLACE the KC-135, not the KC-10 & not the C-17. Yes the KC-X will SUPPLIMENT the KC-10 & C-17 at the jobs they do but the VAST MAJORITY of the time it will do the jobs the KC-135 does.

Boeing cares about the warfighter, that is why it is fighting so hard to get them the RIGHT tanker, the one they chose when they were involded in making the choice & the one most even TODAY say is the one they want & need.

Pcern, This debate can rage and rage and rage,You can’t generalise about which niche aircraft can fulfill operation taskings, due to taskings made for that aircraft.

I hope I made it pertinent, the much lower operating cost of the KC-30, compared to the C-17, yet the much greater cargo capacity. Thats a cost offset.

But the USAF is not a commercial organisation, and it is very much a global entity. Sure you may not need the full fuel offload for peace time training — but on that rational, aircraft would all be flying around wearing buddy packs like the Navy. You train for war.

If you end up for example committed in the Pacific, then your stuffed. You no longer have the bases available to you, and you need a very large fleet to support a deployment, witness to this is the Black Buck Raids…

But even if you reduced the amount of fuel to the Maximum the 767 could carry the KC-30 is still a very capable airframe, and does not loose it’s efficiency. There is no ‘optimum load’ in peacetime. The USAF’s operation have been solidly taylored to what was, when it was first produced, a world beater. Ever since the Extender was bought into service, they have been in by far the highest demand for operations.

But this is really a pretty pointless discussion on being based ‘close to the front’. Tanker operations typically are not, when is possible. Further, and very importantly to this, is whilst military airfields can supply the needs of a tanker fleet in peacetime, they can’t support the needs adequately of a tanker fleet, and combat fleet sharing the same space, and hence, Aerial refuelling operations benifit greatly from basing at domestic & international hubs, where there is an existent logistics train to supply the fuel — or at least much greater capacity to continuously do such large pumping operations consistently without running out of fuel.

There are other concerns with basing tankers at combat airfields, that involve risk or targetting & attack. ‘Spot size’ is relevant to the navy, but if you cram a lot of tankers full up with fuel on the tarmac in a country where the populace doesn’t want you there, all it needs is a mortar hit to destroy the entire tarmac.

There are so many arguments too and fro. Really the USAF is best qualified to make the decisions it needs to get the right plane for it’s needs. Rest assured, they have looked at this very issue.

I forgot to mention, but in this protest — The want of Boeing to do a complete –re-compete instead of just changing sticking points in the RFP has enourmous consequences.

For one the Twin hose and boom layout, would essentially mean that if the USAF opts for the probe system on the F-35 (as it should) and boom to do the existing fleet of bombers and fast jets, then the USAF will be flying around with a bunch of fighters it needs to convert back to boom, or can’t refuel at all.

This is the problem with House bills trying to taylor the decision to a certain plane.

good ole pfcem still telling anyone who will listen to him, that he has TALKED TO ALL OF THE USAF TANKER CREWS and that THEY ALL WANT TE BOEING TANKER. This guy is a trip! You must own a TON of stock in Boeing.

Dave,

First of all it is pfcem as in P F C E M, not Pcern.

The operating costs of the KC-767AT are LOWER than the KC-30. The KC-X is a TANKER that will sometimes be used as a transport to supplement the C-17 & other airlift assets. The USAF has not even provided the analysis to support its requirement for a passenger & cargo capability in the KC-X competition (although nobody doubts the benefits of it — the “question” is whether greater passenger & cargo capability is worth having a tanker which is a less capable/less efficient/more expensive tanker) much less HOW much passenger & cargo capability. Look at it this way, when the KC-X is used as an airlift asset, most of THAT time (which will be a small % of the sorties it flys) it will be used to transport 463L pallets with passengers being the next most “common” cargo. Now the C-17 is by no means lacking in passenger & cargo capability & it IS a dedicated “heavy” airlift assest. The KC-767AT pallet capacity is equal to 1 C-17 and its passenger & patient capacity is equal to 2 C-17. What makes you think that a TANKER needs (or even should) have more airlift capacity than 1–2 C-17? Note how having the KC-767AT aids in airlift planning. Simply plan loads for C-17s & whalla you have loads that nicely fit in to a C-17 OR a KC-767AT. And agian, the KC-X is a MEDIUM INTRA-THEATER TANKER 1st & an airlift asset 2nd. And when it come time to suppliment & replace the large inter-theater KC-10, you can get a tanker which matches or exceed the C-5.

YOU DON’T NEED THE KC-30’s CAPACITY FOR WARTIME OPERATIONS!

Average fuel offload per sortie.
Operation Desert Storm: 47,500 lbs
Operation Allied Force: 48,700 lbs
Operation Enduring Freedom: 75,400 lbs
Operation Iraqi Freedom: 60,800 lbs

THOSE ARE THE NUMBERS FOR THE LAST 4 WARTIME OPERATIONS!

Sorry but fewer bases in the Pacific threater makes having more tankers at each base THAT much more important. And the US has operatated in the Pacific for DECADES using KC-135s (& to a lesser extent KC-10s). Having KC-767AT is by no means a hindrance to Pacific theater operations.

Sorry but the KC-30 is only more efficient than the KC-767AT when it DELIVERS significanlty more than the KC-767AT. The problem is that the times that the KC-X will deliver more than the KC-767AT can will be rare (& those times when it is, then a large inter-theater KC-10 like tanker is the way to go), the VAST majority of the time, the full capacity of the KC-767AT will not even be required much less that of the KC-30.

No the KC-10s HAVE NOT been the highest demand for operations. Since having them the US has learned that there are missions which it is better suited that the KC-135 for & there are missions that the KC-135 is better suited for. During a major WARTIME air campaign, the KC-135 mission are in MUCH higher demand than KC-10 missions.

BS, THE USAF VERY MUCH DOES DESIRE TO OPERATE AS MANY TANKERS AS CLOSE TO THE FRONT AS IT CAN IN ORDER TO MAXIMIZE EFFICIENCY & CAPABILITY. Why the hell do you think the KC-X had a 7000′ runway requirement? If the KC-X was only to operate from large bases far from the front, then 10,000′ would be MORE than sufficient. NO matter what the base size or distance from the front, you can operate MORE KC-767AT than KC-30 & MOST of the time the critical factor in meeting the fuel delivery demands is the number of booms you have NOT how much fuel each tanker can transfer.

Yes, the USAF (more specifically the tanker Generals & crew) is best qualified to make the decisions it needs to get the right plane. When it/they had a say in the choice, it/they chose the KC-767 (in fact it/they flat REJECTED the KC-330 because it failed to meet their needs/requirememnts & IT WAS OBVIOUS). The 2nd time the USAF was FORCED by Congress to conduct a competition which FORCED it to alter its criteria JUST SO THAT EADS WOULD COMPETE WITH THE OTHERWISE NONCOMPETATIVE KC-30 & stopped listening to the tanker Generals & crew because they still say the KC-30 in a nonstarter. No in the 3rd round, the USAF has, in effect, been taken out of the decision process & the SAME DOD individuals who failed in their (greater than usual) role of overseeing the competition/selection are the ones in TOTAL control of the process.

Were the hell do you get that Boeing wanted to do a complete –re-compete instead of just changing sticking points in the RFP? What Boeing wanted was for the USAF to conduct its selection process fairly & assess the relative merits of the proposals in accordance with the evaluation rules & criteria identified in the solicitation.

What House bills are trying to tailor the decision to a certain plane?

Boeing is not fighting to get the troops the right tanker. Boeing is fighting to keep the 767 production line open. The Air Force is best at deciding what the Air Forces needs are, Not Boeing or Congress.

Boeing throughout the first selection process claimed that it was fair and open competition until they LOST.

What House bills is being tailored to help Boeing win. If you do not know that you really DUMB.

Dear pfcem,

your old numbers about “LAST 4 WARTIME OPERATIONS!” tells us nothing because these numbers involve KC-135 limitations and faulty tanker logistics. You can’t deduce from these figures a bigger tanker won’t provide more.

pfcem: “Why the hell do you think the KC-X had a 7000′ runway requirement?”

To operate from more bases as a cargo lifter. Where do you have your big fuel depots with only a 7000 feet runway?

KC-45 can replace C-17 on daily missions from CONUS to Europe. A B767 can’t use most common ULD like LD3 or LD11.

pfcem “When it/they had a say in the choice, it/they chose the KC-767 (in fact it/they flat REJECTED the KC-330 because it failed to meet their needs/requirememnts & IT WAS OBVIOUS).”

In fact Boeing rewrote the specification for the first proposal.
“Boeing eliminated 19 of the 26 capabilities the Air Force originally wanted“
http://​www​.military​.com/​N​e​w​C​o​n​t​e​n​t​/​0​,​1​3​1​9​0​,​G​a​l​l​o​w​a​y​_​0​3​3​1​0​4​,​0​0​.​h​tml

pfcem “The 2nd time the USAF was FORCED by Congress to conduct a competition which FORCED it to alter its criteria …”

Some proof for that except Boeing said so?

GAO claimed Air Force can’t determine that the Northrop Grumman offer could refuel all aircrafts of Air Force. How can Air Force determine that a not existing aircraft could?

Do you know Vmax for Italian KC-767A (without a “T”)?

My apologies Pfcem, I can’t read the small text on the blog sometimes –it wasn’t intentional.

Nobody is desputing the operating costs for an individual KC-30 sitting beside a KC-767 are bigger. But this is with reason. It takes more unit energy to move more unit mass.

Simply put, the bigger you get however, the more ‘efficient’ you get, the Aircraft dosn’t need exta oleo’s, extra cockpits, extra wings etc etc. A 747, costs more to operate than a 737, for obvious reasons. Though it can perform the same operation as a 737 at much lower cost overall.

Now several very senior members in teh USAF have explicity said that the KC-10 was in much more demand than the 135 for the Balkans and OIF as well. Unfortunately, If Australian thought the smaller size was optimal for it’s pacific operations, then it wouldn’t have Chosen the KC-30, period. And that says a lot because they have a hell of a lot of space to cover with a very limited (comparitevely) budget, and their own aquisition process.

The USAF obviously found this a correct assumption as well, because the GAO overrulled Boeings protest in this regard.

What’s the inside scoop on meetings today with the Air Force?

Coffee and cake for free!

Boeing will cry as always after the meeting that KC-767 meet minimum requirement. I even doubt that. 2,000 pounds in additional weight is gained easily with stronger armor protection.

Old391,

No Boeing is fighting to get the troops the right tanker, the won that was chese when they had a role in its selection.

Once 787 productions ramps up the 767 is all-but irrelavant the Boeings bottom line.

Everyone was made to believe that the KC-X selection was “fair & transparent”. Once Boeing received is breifing on the selection it became clear that it was not, thus protested & the GAO agreed.

Funny how adhearing with the GAO ruling & reinstating laws which wrre waived favors Boeing. :)

Boeing is fighting to get it’s own tanker selected. Not because it’s fighting to get the troops the right tanker. It’s not an independent crusader. Boeing is fighting for Boeing, period.

I love how these defense contractors claim they’re part of the “team” and here for the troops. You know, “rah, rah” wave the flag…America, apple pie and patriotism.

Individual employees may feel that way but as far as the company goes, their loyalty lies with the stockholders and not the troops. Anyone who doesn’t recognize that is clueless.

It’s pretty flamming obvious that when the Air Force wanted to replace it’s 135’s, it approached a company that was instrumental in drawing up the original RFP. This has never been about ‘designing the best tanker possible, it has been about ‘what product in our line up can we convert to a tanker’ that is better than the KC 135.

Everything after that is a battle of pro’s and cons for and against the product made (In Boeings case product hypothesised). It is only done to win a contract to line some hip pockets… thought about troops is not even bought into the equation.

we must buy the best eq and go with what is the best plane for the joBs

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