Comments on: Former AF Leader on Georgia: What Must be Done http://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/ Online Defense and Acquisition Journal Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:40:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Nikkiahttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1704 Nikkia Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:20:26 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1704 I don't understand why we are protecting the guilty (Georgia) and prosecuting the protecters (Russia)? In my opinion, we should do nothing for this conflict. This has been going on for years, so let them fight it out. We are spread too thin for another conflict in which we can not do "Any means neccessary" to end it, just like the Iraq war(can we say Veitnam?). The other reason is Georgia started the conflict with South Ossetia and South Ossetia called for assistance from Russia. Russia saw an opertunity to take 2 providances' that broke away many years ago. The only reason we are there is because, like Iraq, we are protecting the oil! The way I see it, If you stir a hornets net, be prepared to get stung! I would like to see the military used for what it was designed for, to resolve situations fast and by any means neccessary, not to be the world police for reasons that don't effect our country. I don’t understand why we are protecting the guilty (Georgia) and prosecuting the protecters (Russia)? In my opinion, we should do nothing for this conflict. This has been going on for years, so let them fight it out. We are spread too thin for another conflict in which we can not do “Any means neccessary” to end it, just like the Iraq war(can we say Veitnam?). The other reason is Georgia started the conflict with South Ossetia and South Ossetia called for assistance from Russia. Russia saw an opertunity to take 2 providances’ that broke away many years ago. The only reason we are there is because, like Iraq, we are protecting the oil! The way I see it, If you stir a hornets net, be prepared to get stung! I would like to see the military used for what it was designed for, to resolve situations fast and by any means neccessary, not to be the world police for reasons that don’t effect our country.

]]> By: fmhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1375 fm Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:30:31 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1375 Camp: we spend $623B on defense (for fy 08 budget) according to globalsecurity.org. Our close allies in NATO + Japan and South Korea probably spend another $250B. Russia spends $50B. Now tell me how this is like lead up to WWII when Germany had BY FAR the best trained, most technically advanced military in the World.Of course the Russians have more than 10 ICBMs as you say. The danger in their eyes would be a first strike by USA taking out most of their capability and having enough of a missile shield to protect against their response. We don't have that capability now but we could in the future. Also, you are only counting ground based mid-course defense interceptors. Here are a few other ABM programs that are currently underway: THAAD (theater high altitude air defence), Patriot PAC-3 terminal stage defense, Boeing ABL (giant laser on 747), Arrow (being developed with Israel), the navy's SM-3 (shot down the satellite a little while ago). Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Who knows what classified programs there are. Do you really think the fact that we offered to "share information" could have fully satisfy the Russians concerns? Camp: we spend $623B on defense (for fy 08 budget) according to globalsecurity.org. Our close allies in NATO + Japan and South Korea probably spend another $250B. Russia spends $50B. Now tell me how this is like lead up to WWII when Germany had BY FAR the best trained, most technically advanced military in the World.

Of course the Russians have more than 10 ICBMs as you say. The danger in their eyes would be a first strike by USA taking out most of their capability and having enough of a missile shield to protect against their response. We don’t have that capability now but we could in the future. Also, you are only counting ground based mid-course defense interceptors. Here are a few other ABM programs that are currently underway: THAAD (theater high altitude air defence), Patriot PAC-3 terminal stage defense, Boeing ABL (giant laser on 747), Arrow (being developed with Israel), the navy’s SM-3 (shot down the satellite a little while ago). Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Who knows what classified programs there are. Do you really think the fact that we offered to “share information” could have fully satisfy the Russians concerns?

]]> By: Davehttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1374 Dave Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:15:55 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1374 Ok - so this guy is advocating that we initiate a war between two hostile "nuclear superpowers" for exactly what purpose? Certainly Russa remains a challange to western security, but this half-thought-out proposal seems to entirely ignore the potential risks. Let's face it, Russia and the US have conflicting goals in many areas and are unlikely to resolve these issues in the foreseeable future. Attempting to solve the conflict through military force ought to be a last resort rather than a half-ass reflex, especially given the currently strained state of our (US) defence forces.Just where do we find the logistical resources for this additional activity? Is there any remaining reserve force for futher unforseen contingencies? What do we gain for the masssive additional risks we undertake? What's this guy been smokin'? Ok — so this guy is advocating that we initiate a war between two hostile “nuclear superpowers” for exactly what purpose? Certainly Russa remains a challange to western security, but this half-thought-out proposal seems to entirely ignore the potential risks. Let’s face it, Russia and the US have conflicting goals in many areas and are unlikely to resolve these issues in the foreseeable future. Attempting to solve the conflict through military force ought to be a last resort rather than a half-ass reflex, especially given the currently strained state of our (US) defence forces.

Just where do we find the logistical resources for this additional activity? Is there any remaining reserve force for futher unforseen contingencies? What do we gain for the masssive additional risks we undertake? What’s this guy been smokin’?

]]> By: Gordonhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1359 Gordon Wed, 10 Sep 2008 03:54:46 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1359 About it being only 10 ABM missiles...the Russians trust us just about as much as we trust them.Problem is, in foreign affairs, morality falls by the wayside. What is important is national survival. Risking a local flareup that can become a nuclear exchange...well, I'd be more than a little careful. Even if we won, we'd lose. About it being only 10 ABM missiles…the Russians trust us just about as much as we trust them.

Problem is, in foreign affairs, morality falls by the wayside.
What is important is national survival. Risking a local flareup that can become a nuclear exchange…well, I’d be more than a little careful. Even if we won, we’d lose.

]]> By: meanrusskihttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1358 meanrusski Wed, 10 Sep 2008 03:19:29 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1358 When twenty years ago perestroika began in Russia, I thought that it would take about a generation. It took Moses forty years to walk his people out of slavery. Russia is half-way through this difficult path, and most intelligent people understand it, while some trigger-happy imbeciles do not. What I did not predict in the late 80s is that it would take a generation of old Americans to die out, in order for the relationship between Russia and the US to improve. Old and rigid people are so used to having an enemy in the Soviet Union, that they are looking to replace it with Russia, even though the times have changed. Also, it is a lot easier to rule the mob, (or the sheep, or the population) when you tell them that there is an enemy. Hitler used Jews for that, and Stalin had invented "enemies of the people".Listen to Pat Buchanan, you dumb and/or evil jerks - he is the only decent guy left among you.http://mamarussianbear.blogspot.com/2008/09/pjb-who-started-cold-war-ii.html When twenty years ago perestroika began in Russia, I thought that it would take about a generation. It took Moses forty years to walk his people out of slavery. Russia is half-way through this difficult path, and most intelligent people understand it, while some trigger-happy imbeciles do not. What I did not predict in the late 80s is that it would take a generation of old Americans to die out, in order for the relationship between Russia and the US to improve. Old and rigid people are so used to having an enemy in the Soviet Union, that they are looking to replace it with Russia, even though the times have changed. Also, it is a lot easier to rule the mob, (or the sheep, or the population) when you tell them that there is an enemy. Hitler used Jews for that, and Stalin had invented “enemies of the people”.

Listen to Pat Buchanan, you dumb and/or evil jerks — he is the only decent guy left among you.

http://mamarussianbear.blogspot.com/2008/09/pjb-who-started-cold-war-ii.html

]]> By: Camphttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1354 Camp Tue, 09 Sep 2008 23:58:20 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1354 fm said (and I'll paraphrase WWII a bit),"What has Nazi Germany done to threaten us? Certainly Nazi leaders like to create conflicts for domestic political gain, but we are just as much of a loose cannon in the eyes of many people around the world as Germany is in our eyes." I find myself astonished at the reminiscence of appeasement, in the face of overt aggression."Remember that the Russians really did fear a first strike from us during the cold war". And the US & Europe feared a first strike from the Soviets... that's a moot point."Our missile defenses may not be able to plausibly stop a full scale Russian missile attack, but perhaps soon they could clean up the remains after we launched a pre-emptive strike." Do you really think that their ICBMs would fly West across Poland, Europe, & the Atlantic to hit the USA... or would they fly East across the Pacific, where mainland Russia & Alaska are 55 miles apart at the Bering Straits? Or maybe even North over the North Pole?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GBI_from_PL_Cannot_Catch_Ru.gifGordon said,"Russia was invaded during WWII and wants a nice large buffer to prevent this from happening again." And Who, is supposedly going to invade them... Most of Europe's military had been falling into disrepair & shrinking budgets, after the Cold War. And if the United States were going to invade, the best time would have been during the fall & break up of the Soviet Union... years ago.And Please keep in mind that Russia was invaded during WWII, by a country with whom they secretly signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. "A non-aggression treaty, signed between Nazi Germany and Soviet Union with secret provisions for the division of Eastern Europe - joint occupation of Poland and Soviet occupation of the Baltic States, Finland and Bessarabia. This protocol gave Hitler the green light for his invasion of Poland."One more thing regarding the ABM system, as an excuse for aggression. 1) The US offered to share information gathered by the system. 2) The Russians claim to have already created a counter-system to defeat the ABM. 3) Only 10 ABM missiles are going to be placed in Poland... the Russian have more than 10 ICBMs. fm said (and I’ll paraphrase WWII a bit),“What has Nazi Germany done to threaten us? Certainly Nazi leaders like to create conflicts for domestic political gain, but we are just as much of a loose cannon in the eyes of many people around the world as Germany is in our eyes.” I find myself astonished at the reminiscence of appeasement, in the face of overt aggression.

“Remember that the Russians really did fear a first strike from us during the cold war”. And the US & Europe feared a first strike from the Soviets… that’s a moot point.

“Our missile defenses may not be able to plausibly stop a full scale Russian missile attack, but perhaps soon they could clean up the remains after we launched a pre-emptive strike.” Do you really think that their ICBMs would fly West across Poland, Europe, & the Atlantic to hit the USA… or would they fly East across the Pacific, where mainland Russia & Alaska are 55 miles apart at the Bering Straits? Or maybe even North over the North Pole?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GBI_from_PL_Cannot_Catch_Ru.gif

Gordon said,“Russia was invaded during WWII and wants a nice large buffer to prevent this from happening again.” And Who, is supposedly going to invade them… Most of Europe’s military had been falling into disrepair & shrinking budgets, after the Cold War. And if the United States were going to invade, the best time would have been during the fall & break up of the Soviet Union… years ago.

And Please keep in mind that Russia was invaded during WWII, by a country with whom they secretly signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. “A non-aggression treaty, signed between Nazi Germany and Soviet Union with secret provisions for the division of Eastern Europe — joint occupation of Poland and Soviet occupation of the Baltic States, Finland and Bessarabia. This protocol gave Hitler the green light for his invasion of Poland.”

One more thing regarding the ABM system, as an excuse for aggression. 1) The US offered to share information gathered by the system. 2) The Russians claim to have already created a counter-system to defeat the ABM. 3) Only 10 ABM missiles are going to be placed in Poland… the Russian have more than 10 ICBMs.

]]> By: fmhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1350 fm Tue, 09 Sep 2008 21:33:09 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1350 Amen Gordon. Nato was formed to contain Soviet Russia. We canceled the ABM treaty, we expanded Nato, we are putting anti-missile defenses in countries bordering Russia, we have invaded countries unilaterally. All these things threaten Russia (from their perspective). What has Russia done to threaten us? Certainly Russian leaders like to create conflicts for domestic political gain, but we are just as much of a loose cannon in the eyes of many people around the world as Russia is in our eyes.Our missile defenses may not be able to plausibly stop a full scale Russian missile attack, but perhaps soon they could clean up the remains after we launched a pre-emptive strike. Suddenly they no longer have an effective deterent. Remember that the Russians really did fear a first strike from us during the cold war, as crazy as that may seem to us. And imagine how we would behave if we invaded a small central american country under ambiguous circumstances (certainly non inconcievable) and Russia threatened military involvement?! Some people (like Secretary Wynne) seem nostalgic for the cold war. Maybe he's just bored of soft targets in Iraq. Amen Gordon. Nato was formed to contain Soviet Russia. We canceled the ABM treaty, we expanded Nato, we are putting anti-missile defenses in countries bordering Russia, we have invaded countries unilaterally. All these things threaten Russia (from their perspective). What has Russia done to threaten us? Certainly Russian leaders like to create conflicts for domestic political gain, but we are just as much of a loose cannon in the eyes of many people around the world as Russia is in our eyes.

Our missile defenses may not be able to plausibly stop a full scale Russian missile attack, but perhaps soon they could clean up the remains after we launched a pre-emptive strike. Suddenly they no longer have an effective deterent. Remember that the Russians really did fear a first strike from us during the cold war, as crazy as that may seem to us. And imagine how we would behave if we invaded a small central american country under ambiguous circumstances (certainly non inconcievable) and Russia threatened military involvement?! Some people (like Secretary Wynne) seem nostalgic for the cold war. Maybe he’s just bored of soft targets in Iraq.

]]> By: colleenhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1349 colleen Tue, 09 Sep 2008 20:42:08 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1349 I don't know if Russia will be able to guarantee the security of those F-22s. I here Ossetians are pretty deadly with their boomerangs and whatnot. I don’t know if Russia will be able to guarantee the security of those F-22s. I here Ossetians are pretty deadly with their boomerangs and whatnot.

]]> By: elohttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1344 elo Tue, 09 Sep 2008 17:09:53 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1344 Cowardice has never paid. western nations are only a club of cowards which hide behind US protection.If US did not create NATO. you can bet today that all the western countries would become commies and poor like old eastern countries under soviet comunisim system.the georgian invasion is a message sent to west in general to US and in particular to west european countries.Clinton was saying about yugolsavia that agression had not to rewarded!!! i think that message has its sens today to help Georgia Cowardice has never paid. western nations are only a club of cowards which hide behind US protection.If US did not create NATO. you can bet today that all the western countries would become commies and poor like old eastern countries under soviet comunisim system.the georgian invasion is a message sent to west in general to US and in particular to west european countries.Clinton was saying about yugolsavia that agression had not to rewarded!!!
i think that message has its sens today to help Georgia

]]> By: elohttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1343 elo Tue, 09 Sep 2008 17:07:27 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1343 Cowardice has never paid. western nations are only a club of cowards which hide behind protection.If US did not create NATO. you can bet today that all the western countries would become commies and poor like old eastern countries under soviet comunisim system.the georgian invasion is a message sent to west in general to US and in particular to west european countries.Clinton was saying about yugolsavia that agression had not to rewarded!!! i think that message has its sens today to help Ggeorgia Cowardice has never paid. western nations are only a club of cowards which hide behind protection.If US did not create NATO. you can bet today that all the western countries would become commies and poor like old eastern countries under soviet comunisim system.the georgian invasion is a message sent to west in general to US and in particular to west european countries.Clinton was saying about yugolsavia that agression had not to rewarded!!!
i think that message has its sens today to help Ggeorgia

]]> By: Gordonhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1342 Gordon Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:27:40 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1342 I think everyone is losing sight of the real problem. We almost went to war with Russia over nukes in Cuba. Russia was invaded during WW2 and wants a nice large buffer to prevent this from happening again. Asking previous Warsaw Pact states that are directly against the Russian border to join NATO (an organization formed specifically to defend against Russia), is like waving a red flag at Russia. Putting NATO troops, especially Americans there is stupid. It's a reverse version of Cuba. NATO will not defend them. Instead ask them to Join the European Economic union (I believe that's what it's called) and get rid of the military provocation. I think everyone is losing sight of the real problem. We almost went to war with Russia over nukes in Cuba. Russia was invaded during WW2 and wants a nice large buffer to prevent this from happening again.
Asking previous Warsaw Pact states that are directly against the Russian border to join NATO (an organization formed specifically to defend against Russia), is like waving a red flag at Russia. Putting NATO troops, especially Americans there is stupid. It’s a reverse version of Cuba. NATO will not defend them. Instead ask them to Join the European Economic union (I believe that’s what it’s called) and get rid of the military provocation.

]]> By: Jackhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1336 Jack Tue, 09 Sep 2008 02:17:57 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1336 How exactly are global hawks and U2s going to stay in the air. The Russians have lost a step but they can shoot down a global hawk and U2s. Not to mention how the F22s are going to be refueled and kept on station. Also, I shudder when AF secretaries are deploying marines and just say "send them" How? How exactly are global hawks and U2s going to stay in the air. The Russians have lost a step but they can shoot down a global hawk and U2s. Not to mention how the F22s are going to be refueled and kept on station. Also, I shudder when AF secretaries are deploying marines and just say “send them” How?

]]> By: Camphttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1334 Camp Mon, 08 Sep 2008 22:51:16 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1334 IMHO, Russia's actions in Georgia are basically a continuation of its polices in Chechnya. The West turned a blind eye to Russia's pacification-by-force (whether you agree with it or not). And as a result, the behavior was reinforced and NATO's involvement with former Soviet states was/is considered by Russia as meddling with internal affairs.Three things are now known... NATO has a lot of fresh information on how Russia conducts warfare... The Russian military isn't, what it used to be.... Russia would really like to be, what it used to be."Russian Air Force after Georgia, part 1" (5 Parts in Total) http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2008/09/russian-air-force-after-georgi.html IMHO, Russia’s actions in Georgia are basically a continuation of its polices in Chechnya. The West turned a blind eye to Russia’s pacification-by-force (whether you agree with it or not). And as a result, the behavior was reinforced and NATO’s involvement with former Soviet states was/is considered by Russia as meddling with internal affairs.

Three things are now known… NATO has a lot of fresh information on how Russia conducts warfare… The Russian military isn’t, what it used to be.… Russia would really like to be, what it used to be.

“Russian Air Force after Georgia, part 1″ (5 Parts in Total)
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2008/09/russian-air-force-after-georgi.html

]]> By: ronnie pondhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2008/09/08/former-af-leader-on-georgia-what-must-be-done/comment-page-1/#comment-1333 ronnie pond Mon, 08 Sep 2008 22:16:13 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=947#comment-1333 If all this input in this article was from mike wynn. former air force secretary. then answer me this. why is he not still in that job ???.why if he knows all this why didn't he send it to the pentagon,the whitehouse,some one that might be able to get some thing done about it???.why just put it in the mil.com and get rave reviews???.it makes people think that all the smart people wait to get out of the jobs they had before saying what should have been said while in office???.or don't you think so???.there are a lot of Question marks aren't there???. If all this input in this article was from mike wynn. former air force secretary. then answer me this. why is he not still in that job ???.why if he knows all this why didn’t he send it to the pentagon,the whitehouse,some one that might be able to get some thing done about it???.why just put it in the mil.com and get rave reviews???.it makes people think that all the smart people wait to get out of the jobs they had before saying what should have been said while in office???.or don’t you think so???.there are a lot of Question marks aren’t there???.

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