FLASH: NO Tanker RFP Til Next Admin

FLASH: NO Tanker RFP Til Next Admin

UPDATED ADDS congressional comments and analysis of 777 bid.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates, clearly worried that the atmosphere is so poisoned by the battle between Boeing and Northrop and tainted by the poor performance of the Air Force, has decided to punt and leave any tanker RFP to the next administration.

“Rather than hand the next Administration an incomplete and possibly contested process, Secretary Gates decided that the best course of action is to provide the next Administration with full flexibility regarding the requirements, evaluation criteria and the appropriate allocation of defense budget to this mission,” the Pentagon release said this morning..

The release quoted Gates, saying that “It is my judgment that in the time remaining to us, we can no longer complete a competition that would be viewed as fair and objective in this highly charged environment. The resulting ‘cooling off’ period will allow the next Administration to review objectively the military requirements and craft a new acquisition strategy for the KC-X.”

The first congressional reactions were positive. One of the Capitol’s most important money men, Rep. John Murtha (D-Penn.) said, “I believe that Secretary Gates made the right decision in providing the next Administration with the opportunity to review the requirements and proceed with a new solicitation. Our committee advised the Defense Department to ensure that there was enough time for legitimate competition. This decision will allow for that.” Murtha signalled pretty clearly that the House Appropriations defense subcommittee would come up with whatever money might be needed to keep the tankers flying. “Now our job will be to work with the Department to make certain that our current tankers, that are over 40 years old, will be rehabilitated to ensure we have tankers available for world-wide Air Force missions,” he added.

One of Boeing’s staunchest supporters, Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-Wash.) issued a nice rhetorical example.

“A restart is better than a false start and a false start is where the Air Force was headed. Hopefully, a new start will be a fair process to fully understand the requirements and give contractors the proper time to bid,” she said in a statement.

It included an interesting reference to the pending nomination of Michael Donley to be Air Force secretary. “I will continue to push the Air Force and the Defense Department, by maintaining my hold on the nomination of Air Force Secretary Donley, to make sure there is a fair, open and transparent process as it relates to requirements and the RFP bid process.”

The Pentagon decision was made on the basis that “the current KC-135 fleet can be adequately maintained to satisfy Air Force missions for the near future,” according to the release. It added that the next budget “to maintain the KC-135 at high-mission capable rates. In addition, the Department will recommend to the Congress the disposition of the pending FY09 funding for the tanker program and plans to continue funding the KC-X program in the FY10 to FY15 budget presently under review.” 

Before it became clear just what the Pentagon’s recommendation was this morning, I heard from a congressional source says that the House and Senate defense committees were being briefed about the new tanker RFP this morning. A Boeing supporter, this aide warned that it better include at least a six month extension to allow Boeing to submit a 777 bid.

“If the RFP stipulates that DoD will not allow the competitors to have adequate time to prepare a new proposal based on the new specifications (Boeing CEO told Dep. Sec. England that the company would need minimum of 6 months to submit a proposal based on a larger 767 or a 777), the department would essentially be announcing that it is intending to conduct a sole-source procurement.  Two years ago you recall that DoD bent over backwards (issuing three draft RFPs) to assure that there was competition,” this aide said.

It looks like he effectively got his wish. But since Boeing has said it needs more time to bid the 777, let’s look at what a 777 bid might mean.

The 777, an exemplary commercial airplane with larger capacity and greater efficiency than the 767, would appear to better match some of the Pentagon’s needs and desires by offering greater fuel and passenger capacity, as well as a more modern airframe and power plant. But the 777 comes with a lot of baggage. Richard Aboulafia, one of the country’s top aviation industry experts, told me from the beach in North Carolina that there are four major issues that make the 777 a questionable choice for a tanker.

First off,  “it takes a very long time to create a tanker version of a passenger plane. It would take them six months just to get them started,” he said.

Second is acquisition costs. “A 777 F is about 45 percent heavier than a 330–200 That’s a lot of plane. It would be a very tough sell,” Aboulafia said. And Boeing would find it extremely difficult to offer any discounts on the 777 pricing because “the order book is full.” Boeing is already building seven planes per month, which is pretty much the capacity. The company has done an exercise showing that it could build 10 planes a month, Aboulafia said, but that would be difficult to sustain.

The good news is that, by the time that tankers were actually heading to production, Aboulafia believes demand would be slackening in the commercial market and the company could clear space on the line for the tankers.

Then there are life cycle cost issues. The 777 would be “considerably more expensive” to maintain, which is ironic given the GAO finding that the Air Force goofed on the life cycle costs of the Northrop offering, leading Boeing to hammer away at the long term costs of the Airbus plane. But the 777 would raise exacly the same questions about air field access and use of existing facilities, Aboulafia said.

When you boil all of this down, Aboulafia said he believes Boeing’s “strategy might be to just stall until politics get better,” adding there is a better than even chance the company will eventually drop the bid unless Congress mandates a split buy.

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Sooo — We should wait another 6 months for a proposal on a plane that can’t really be delivered in any kind of quantity for a long time thats even more expensive to operate and maintain and can land on even fewer runways. Hmmmm.…I hate that the US has only one widebody producer.

Flash Washington News Tanker Program is Canceled for now. Thank you pcfem and the Boeing whinners in Congress and at Boeing Execs. Now what is the Air Force going to do keep repairing those old out of date KC-135 until 2050.

Well like some one once said if Boeing can not get the contract then Boeing would have it KILLED.

So much for putting the warfighter first. Slash and burn tactics by Boeing.

This is not a boardroom game, killing this contract means killing servicemen and woman when one of these 135 relics goes down. The Boeing antics have paid off for now, but at what cost? Boeing has lost far more than they will ever gain with this decision. Let the retribution continue and never be forgotten!

Okay so Boeing will lose again, there is no way that 777 tanker will work, it is way too big, not to mention Boeing’s production line cannot handle the demands of the Air Force

Boeing sticks up for itself (as did Airbus/Northrup earlier) and here they get called “whinners” and accused of “antics”?
These comments could well be directed right back at the authors.
Here’s hoping that after cooling off, the new RFP specifies a tanker (or maybe tankers) that is efficient and cost effective for their missions.

The SECDEF whimped out of making a time-critical and contentious decision.

Inferred in his statement is to start the entire process over. That means: revisit the operational requirements; re-validate them by USAF and the JROC; develop a new RFP (with multiple DRFPs); conduct a wholly new source selection.

While his statement in the article inferred only a short delay, if his statement is carried to its natural conclusion, we are looking at a 2 year slip before we have bids; and no less than 5 years before we have any new hardware.

While Boeing may have won the tactical and political battle, what upsets me the most is that it has shown we do not have a decisive leader as SECDEF. The Armed Forces will continue to be the political playthings of Congress in all acquisition programs. If Gates can’t make a tough business decision, how capable is he of making a life and death decision — his real job!!!

Here is my take (taking my obvious bias into account as I work for Boeing):

1. The government should have barred Boeing from competing on the original tanker proposal following the Druyan affair just like they did with EELV. They didn’t citing the need to ensure that the tanker acquisition wasn’t sole sourced. That was their first mistake.

2. Given that the tanker competition went forward, it is not Boeing that screwed up the bidding process; it was the Air Force with their jacked up acquisition process. The simple fact is that if you ask for an apple, don’t accept an orange as a bid. There are rules in acquisitions that are (supposed to) ensure fair competition 

3. Some cite the “fact” that the EADS/NG bid was a better buy. Hogwash. The total lifecycle costs for the EADS/NG bid was far more that the 767, although I agree that now offering the 777 would probably negate that argument. Ironically, in this case the EADS/NG and Boeing roles would be reversed: Boeing would be offering a more capable tanker than EADS/NG but with higher lifecycle costs.

4. Everyone seems to overlook the issue of risk, and the EADS/NG bid is far riskier than Boeing’s. Boeing has been building tankers for more than 40 years. They are very good at it. Take the KC-135. It has an outstanding track record and has been in service far longer than originally envisioned. 

5. Cancelling the re-bid was the only real option at this point. If it re-bids, this time with Boeing offering the 777 and Boeing still loses, then so be it.

6. With the government’s decision to cancel the re-bid, Boeing wins on two fronts: a) They keep their KC-135 sustainment contract alive for quire some time and b) They get another chance to compete on the new tanker proposal.

How the hell is this a win for Boeing, or ANYBODY for that matter? Except perhaps the next administration getting it right the THIRD time around. 

The KC-30 (much less the KC-777) IS NOT what the USAF wanted, asked for or chose — in fact it specifically REJECTED them both. And the idots in the DOD (the ones who were not competent enough to have seen the problems with the KC-30 selection when they were responsible for ensuring that such things did not happen) were pushing us into a KC-30 vs KC-777 selection by fundamentally changing the requirements (AGAIN).

Here is an insanely logical idea. How about just assessing the relative merits of the proposals in accordance with the evaluation criteria identified in the solicitation & consistent with the GAO’s decision (as in the eight specific items the GAO sustained the protest over & the other items the GAO recommended be looked at more closely).

***

Brownshoe,

Why should Boeing have been barred from competing for the SECOND attempt a tanker recapitalization? It was the USAF which screwed up the tanker lease, not Boeing (& had in not been for the actions of Druyan & Sears it probably would have gotten away with it & we would have KC-767s right now & Boeing & the USAF would be working TOGETHER on what would propably have ended up being remmarkably similar to the KC-767AT for procurement around 2012). The whole “idea” was to supposedly fix the problems of the tanker lease by FORCING the USAF to conduct a full & thorough “competition”.

pfcem,

I wasn’t talking about the lease deal at all. Boeing broke the first rule of procurement integrity by working with and subsequently hiring the top government procurement official directly involved in the procurement process for the tanker program. It is ethically no different than the instance where Lockheed proprietary information was used to win EELV that subsequently barred Boeing from future launch contracts. That alone should have disqualified Boeing the way that EELV deal did. The Sear/Druyan affair (and EELV) was to Boeing what the tail hook scandal was to the Navy. And believe me – all Boeing employees paid and are still paying the price for that one, both in terms of a loss of confidence in the company and the inevitable mandatory procurement integrity and business ethics training that we’ve had to endure every 90 days since then. And since I work for Boeing and you don’t (or least you claim that you don’t), I’d say I have a very different perspective of that entire affair than you do.

I already explained how Boeing “wins”: a) with the KC-135 sustainment contract, which will probably have to be extended now and b) with the ability for Boeing to re-group and put together a more competitive proposal. 

You stated: “How about just assessing the relative merits of the proposals in accordance with the evaluation criteria identified in the solicitation…”. While I agree with your basic premise that the 767 met the stated needs of the Air Force in the original proposal better than the Airbus did, for better or for worse, the capabilities of the A330 has caused the Air Force to do a double-take in terms of their “needs” (albeit after the fact) and that’s where the rub is, hence my apples to oranges comparison. Not taking the ethics issue into consideration, hypothetically I agree that the 767 should have won on that basis alone but the fact is that it didn’t primarily because NG/EADS offered them a more capable solution for less money (or so it seemed like less money at the surface). In the end, the 767 is not comparable to the A330 but the A330 could be considered comparable to the 777–200. If fact, the entire argument surrounding this controversy is that both sides are claiming that the proposals and re-proposals are “tailored” to their competitors bid. One can make that argument equally on both sides. If the DoD is smart, the next time they should either:

a) Go back to the original proposal as you suggested or
b) If the Air Force really has changed its mind on the requirements, re-write the proposal with new specifications, which could open up the competition between the A330 and the 777. 

I’m not sure what exactly your issue is with a 777 tanker variant, but it seems plausible to me, although there are issues that need to be addressed before Boeing can move forward with such a proposal. I disagree with your statements I heard concerning an inadequate 777 production capacity. Having worked on the 777, I know for a fact that they can bump production to 10/month. Furthermore, Boeing has been keeping the 767 line alive for the most part for the tanker deal. If they could reduce or outright eliminate 767 production, that could conceivably free up resources to open up a second 777 line.

pfcem,

Correction on my last post where I said “I disagree with your statements I heard concerning an inadequate 777 production capacity”. You didn’t say that, someone else did. Sorry.

All concerned –

Walk lightly when bashing Boeing. Your comments could be construed as disparaging the hard work that I and thousands of my fellow Boeing employees produced for the tanker proposal. Standing up for what we believe to be fair is not “whining”. Believe me; it’s not easy for us either.

Brownshoe and pfcem — If you work for Boeing then you must not know a lot about your 767 series aircraft. The A330 is not related to the 777 in size. If anything the A330 is sized between the 767–300 and 767–400. So if your going to compare apples to apples then you compare the 767–300 or –400 against the A330. If you use the 777 now it is apples and pears. Remember it is Boeing that told the Air Force it needed the 767–200. Just because Japan and Italy bought them does not mean the Air Force has to follow suit. The Air Force saw the problems Boeing was having in the production and DELAY of those tankers for Japan and Italy and saw that it may not offer what they really wanted.

With your 777 tanker variant it will still require more runway to take off at Max Weight than the A330 which requries less runway length that the 767–300 or –400. 

Your right it is not easy for you guys cause your management made the wrong decision as to which 767 aircraft to offer. Now everyone is suffering well not everyone, the American GI is suffering.

Old391,

I agree that Boeing could offer a solution based on the 767 –300 or –400 but I don’t agree that the 777 is not a contender:

- Length: 209 ft 1 in. (777–200), 195 ft 10 in. (A330 MRTT), 201 ft 4 in. (767 –400ER)

- Wingspan: 199 ft 11 in. (777–200), 197 ft 10 in. (A330 MRTT), 170 ft 4 in. (767 –400ER)

- Empty Weight: 307,000 lb. (777–200), 265,000 lbs. (A330 MRTT), 229,000 lbs. (767 –400ER)

- Max. Gross Weight: 545,000 lbs. (777–200), 507,063 lbs. (A330 MRTT), 450,000 lbs. (767 –400ER)

– Max. Range: 5,235 nm. (777–200), 6750 nm. (A330 MRTT), 5,625 nm. (767 –400ER)

I agree weight vs. range is an issue on a 777 offering but not to any degree not worth considering. For example, Boeing could offer a solution based on the 767-200ER which would increase range to 6,590 nm. but at the cost of increasing the max. gross weight to 656,000 lbs. Take-off run lengths are an issue with just about any Boeing offering: 8,200 ft. (777–200), 11,600 ft. (777-200ER) and 9,501 ft. (767 –400ER) versus 7300ft. for the (A330 MRTT).

Hell, if this crap goes on any longer Boeing may end up in a position to offer a 787-based solution. Although that would be an interesting race: to see which program gets delayed the longest, 787 or tanker selection.

Brownshoe– just a couple of questions.
1)How is the KC-30 and the KC-45 an apples to oranges comparison? Their capabilities are different but not that different. Boeing just doesn’t currently have an airframe sized between their 767 and 777. 

2)How has Beoing been building tankers for 40 years when the youngest 135 is more than 25 years old? I know you bought M Douglas but that only gives you another 5 years. (think the youngest KC-10 is from 1985. 

PS — This arguement is not with the Boeing factory worker, It’s with Boeing Management, Norm Dicks and the Air Force acquisition people. and I guess the rep from Alabama that remains nameless and silent through all this.

Sgt JFK,
The KC-135 was last produced in the 60’s. The basic airframe is approaching 50 years old. Performing life extension mods on an airframe still means the airframe is 50 years old. 

I agree with your statement that it is inaccurate to say that Boeing has been building Tankers for over 40 years. Other than a few 767 Tankers sold to Japan and Italy, all Boeing has been doing is keeping the 50 year old 135 alive — that’s not manufacturing.

Brownshoe
As a flyer, I would not be excited at all to be a Receiver getting gas from a composite airplane, such as the 787. The engineering and science associated with dissipating static electric in bad weather is still in its infancy. “Passing gas” in that situation would be a religious experience!!

The problem is both the DOD and the Air Force employ too many civilian managers who can’t manage, too many Air Force personnel who aren’t leaders and think management degrees are a substitute for it; and an entrenched bureaucracy that couldn’t get out of it’s own way.

When making the car pool at 3 pm is more important than your duties; when building and protecting your empire is more important than your duty; when career progression is more important than the national welfare; when sucking up is more important than the truth; when loyalty is less important than anything else, this is what you get.

I spent time at the Pentagon and worked with the Air Force. Both of them no longer know why they exist. I retired to avoid a second tour. We could fire at least half the civilians in DOD and see a performance increase.

The Air Force leadership has become a civil service group, bus drivers in uniform. We should clean house and reduce the size of DOD replacing as many civilian in decision making positions as possible with uniformed personnel that only see loyalty and mission accomplishment as their agenda.

Best answer is a modified C17 for tanker duty, for many reasons: aircrew training, maintenance, parts logistics, engine commonality and fuel efficiency, etc, etc, etc.

BOEING– BUILDER OF THE-B17,B24, B29, B52 B1B IN THE USA. AIR BUS AIRCRAFT– BUILDER FOR THE EUROPEAN UNION WITH THAT GOVERNMENTS FINANCIAL BACKING.WHY IT IS A DISGRACE THAT WE WOULD CONSIDER USING A MANUFACTURER OTHER THAN A USA BASED PROVEN COMPANY.DON’T SEND MORE TAXPAYER MONEY TO THE EUROPEAN UNION THAT IS SO DESPERATELY NEEDED HERE!!!!!!! WHY WOULD WE SPEND TAXPAYER DEFENSE DOLLARS ON EQUIPTMENT NOT MANUFACTURED HERE????

At this point DoD should just split the buy between the two. It’s the only way to avoid the inevitable protest by the losing bidder. DoD could cite a need to have a the KC-45 for large capcity and the smaller boeing model for flexibility.

Brownshoe The A330 was built to go into runaways in Europe that are not as long as the runways in the US. That is why they can take off with a Max load in a shorter distance.

Next

There will not be an RFP in the next admin.

The blank faces.….….….…

I suppose that is all we are.…..at least to “mil.com”.

Not to worry, the Boeing machinists’ strike will default the tanker contract to the Airbus folks.

Blackshoe’s answer makes the most sense.

What’s Gates going to do? I don’t like the idea that the people in the field have to wait EVEN LONGER for a new tanker and still have to maintain the old, beat up ones at incredible cost, but given the time left in this administration (and the fact that Rummy and cronies screwed this war up worse than the Keystone cops would have), there’s not much that can be done. 

The stinkin’ lawyers are involved now… lawsuits will fly and nothing will get done.

Alan wrote, “The problem is both the DOD and the Air Force employ too many civilian managers who can’t manage, too many Air Force personnel who aren’t leaders and think management degrees are a substitute for it; and an entrenched bureaucracy that couldn’t get out of it’s own way.

When making the car pool at 3 pm is more important than your duties; when building and protecting your empire is more important than your duty; when career progression is more important than the national welfare; when sucking up is more important than the truth; when loyalty is less important than anything else, this is what you get.”

Boy, did you hit that on the head!!! I got out of the Air Farce because covering stuff on paper was more important than people having the right equipment to make sure they stay alive.

What is Gates and the AF Tanker office going to do between now and next January 21? Go on vacation? I though the AF is a civil service organization that does its job irrespective of whose picture hangs on the post office wall?

Are they going to wait till after the inauguration and then call up the new occupant in the White House and ask if they should start working on a new bid yet or just continue to sit around the office drinking coffee, surfing the net?

Why on earth isn’t Gates continuing whatever needs to be done to get he eventual contract in order so it’s right once and for all? It will still have to done even after he intejects this artifical 6 month hold.

I thought Gates was pretty good about taking the bull by the horns. He ha apparently jumped off of this one and is running away from it.

Too bad. He used to be a good candidate to be the Sec of Def in the next administration. But he seems to be a self appointed lame duck now. Does he still intend to draw full pay?

Very disappointing, very disgusting. 

Why don’t we just let Boeing decide when to call us back and let us know when they are ready to bid???

WHY WOULD WE SPEND TAXPAYER DEFENSE DOLLARS ON EQUIPTMENT NOT MANUFACTURED HERE????

How much have we spent so far thanks to Boeing’s confusion and partisan backing in Congress? And how much equipment do we have to show for it?

Is the contract a Boeing bail out or an AF tanker program?

Federal law prohibits favoritism to American contractors. This is intended so we get the biggest bang for the buck. Again, who is the customer? Boeing or our militaty?

Brownshoe,

NO, Sear/Druyan got caugth doing what sadly happens a lot more than most will admit to. When “Boeing” (the company) found out about it, “Boeing” (the company) fierd them both — this occured a month BEFORE the USAF finalized negotiations with Boeing in December 2003 to lease 20 KC-767A tanker aircraft and procure 80 tanker aircraft.

What you are missing is that Congress’ “solution” to the mistakes the USAF made during the tanker lease was to FORCE a “full competition”. Without Boeing there could be no competition.

It is also unconscionable to bar Boeing from the 2nd attempt at tanker recapitalization because of the actions of ONE Boeing offiecial & ONE USAF official.

Boeing was going to get several KC-135 sustainment contracts to keep them operational until they FINALLY were taken out of service DECADES from now. Time for Boeing to re-group and put together a more competitive proposal is not a win for Boeing, it is a LOSS for the US — Boeing should not need to re-group and put together a more competitive proposal. Boeing put together an awesome proposal specifically for the KC-X solicitation, one which clearly fit the solicitation better than the NG/EADS proposal & it is only because Under Secretary Young (not the USAF) fundamentally changed one of if not the most key requirement.

THe KC-X soucre selecion team IS NOT the USAF & the KC-30 IS NOT a more capable solution. The problem is that every time the requirement have been revised we get farther & farther away from what common sence & 50_ years of aerial experience clearly indicates — that the KC-135 should/needs to be replace with something closer to the KC-135 than the KC-10 & NOT by somehting bigger & heavier than the KC-10.

My issue with a KC-777 is that it is the WRONG platform to replace the KC-135. A KC-777 would be good for a KC-10 replacement but the KC-X is a KC-135 replacement, not a KC-10 replacement.

Was out to the Reno Air Races today and checked out the KC-10 on display. This is one big tanker. Are the proposed tankers bigger? If a KC-10 can do it why not a 777. What do I know, I can barely keep my Mach 1 fueled.

Bottom line is politics during an election year combined with an inept Sec’y Defense who seems to be having a problem seeing past noon, has prevented acquisition of an A/C appearing to be fully capable of filling BOTH small and large tanker requirements at an effective price with the added capability to carry passengers. Let’s see, we give our fighters and bombers a drink while deploying plus carrying our secuirty / maintenance troops with us. Hmm, I wonder who’s funding those lobbyists.

Old391,

You disingenuous [insert derogatory word of choice].

I have made it clear that i do not work for Boeing.

I have been one of the few voices here who has recognized (& not misrepresented) the differences between the 767, A330 & 777.

The the A330 is NOT sized between the 767–300 and 767–400. Size is not one dimentional. The LARGEST 767 is smaller than the A330-200 & the A330-300 is about the same size as the SMALLEST 777. In terms of a “apples-to-apples” comparision the 767-400ER vs A330-200 & A330-300 vs 777–200 are about the closest you will get. The 767-400ER has an empty weight 36,000 lbs less than the A330-200 with about 2/3 (85,500 lbs less) the fuel capacity. The A330-300 has an empty weight 35,550 lbs less than the 777–200 with 35,500 lbs less fuel capacity.

BOEING DID NOT EVER TELL THE USAF THAT IT NEEDED THE 767–200! THE USAF TOLD BOEING THAT IT NEEDED THE KC-767 (based on the 767-200ER).

Sgt JFK,

Boeing delivered KE-3s to Saudi Arabia in the 1980’s. Basically E-3s fitted as tankers — pretty much equal to the USAF KC-135Rs but a bit larger due to being an E-3 rather than a C-135. And even though Boeing has not BUILT new tankers (prior to the KC-767 that is) since, it have been active WITH the USAF & foreign operators upgrading & maintaining KC-135s.

Mach351,

Yes the KC-10 is a big tanker.

The US operates two distinctly different tankers. It has 410 “medium intra-theater” KC-135R (plus over 130 KC-135E that it has been trying since 2001 to retire) & 50 “larger inter-theater” KC-10. The KC-135 is better at “tactical operations” refueling comparatively large numbers of small aircraft (fighers & attack aircraft) with comparatively small amounts of fuel per receiver. The KC-10 is better at “strategic operations” refueling comparatively small numbers of large aircraft (bombers & airlift assets) with comparatively large amounts of fuel per receiver.

The USAF conducted a tanker requiremnts study in the late 90’s (completed in 2000/2001 but never officially finalized & released) called the TRS-05 (Tanker Requirements Study for Fiscal Year 2005). It did not conclude that the USAF needed 250–300 KC-10-equivalent tankers but 500–600 KC-135R-equivalent tankers…

Brownshoe, please explain how your statement below holds any water?
“4. Everyone seems to overlook the issue of risk, and the EADS/NG bid is far riskier than Boeing’s. Boeing has been building tankers for more than 40 years. They are very good at it.”

Clearly, Boeing built the 135, 50 years ago! I contend that the engineers who did that are long since gone and probably dead! If not, then having a 80 year+ old engineer leading a new program smacks of risk that he, A) drops dead of natural causes, B) drops dead under the pressure or C) relies on 50 year old technology he used back then? Just how many of these dinosaurs do you still have on the payroll?

So the KC-135 heritage BS doesn’t hold water! 

Current experience on “building tankers” is wracked with delays, certification failures and angry customers. Japan and Italy both nearly pulled out and would have if they weren’t part of the consortium. Airbus has built and delivered their tankers to other countries with little or no delay or problems. So how is a Boeing subsidy not High Risk? 

They don’t even have a paper design anymore (2–3 years to design another Frankentanker), 2–3 year Proposal effort, 1–3 year startup since their old line will be down by then, Standard 4 year production delay and 1 year to actually build a tanker.
We are looking at a minimum 13 years before the first Boeing tanker could be delivered? 

Oh I forgot the mandatory minimum one month delay per year to accomadate Boeing strikes, which adds another year or two delay. 

Just how, even in your Boeing frame of mind, do you consider this less risky?????

Today’s Ethics Word: Boinginate
Pronunciation: \Bo-ing-i-nate\
Function: Verb
Etymology: North Western US & Boeing/Aeronovali/JADC Consortium
Date: 2008
Transitive verb
: to habitually lie, cheat, bribe or steal if you really, really want to win

Boeing should consider dusting off the plans for the MD-12 (2-engine MD-11) and submit that for the bid. They might even be able to sell a MD-12F to FedEx and UPS. It has a smaller foot print than the 767–400 and the A-330, yet a much higher MGTOW. In a tanker, you need a small footprint, yet a high MGTOW. If you look at how the footprint to MGTOW ratio stacks up for the KC-135 and KC-10, today’s airliners are lightweights for their size. Fuel is much heavier than Pax or cargo. Today’s airliners are willing to measured in seat mile efficiency, a measurement that is completely irrelevent in the tanker world.

I have to say, Boeing has gotten every bit of their money’s worth out of their PR department. They’ve managed to convince people that an a/c put together in Alabama with engines done by GE is “foreign”…

DensityDuck,

Actually it is NG & EADS which have gotten their money’s worth out of their PR department & by a small army of EADS/KC-30 Kool-Aid drinkers. Trying to FOOL people into believing that an aircraft MANUFACTURED in Europe with FINAL ASSEMBLY occuring in Alabama is a NG tanker.

pfcem: If that’s your line of attack, then Boeing is exactly as vulnerable as NG. Where are all the parts of 787 made? Hint: NOT IN THE USA.

YOU IDIOTS ARE GIVING OUT TOO MUCH INFORMATION — PRACTICE OPSEC ie LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS.

DensityDuck,

The KC-767AT is not a 787.

The 787 is not a USAF aerial refueling tanker.

Boeing MANUFACTURES a significant portion of the 787 (although notably larger portions are supplied by overseason suppliers) in addition to designing/developing it.

NG would take delivery of a “green” A330-200 MANUFACTURED by Airbus in Europe & ASSEMBLED by EADS North America in Alabama.

pfcem: Nope; that does not, as it were, fly. The 787 is dependent on overseas manufacture; if it were not for these deals, the aircraft would not exist.

And so what if the A330 fuselage is manufactured overseas? Who cares? It’s not as though the French can just make the structure vanish if they want. Once it arrives in Mobile, it’s ours. 

And if Boeing wants to make the case that the tanker ought to be built here, then they better get their thumbs outta their butts and START BUILDING SOME DAMN AIRPLANES. It’s hard to convince people of the virtues of proud American workers when those proud American workers are all on strike.

DensityDuck,

Boeing made the choice to include a higher amount of overseas manufacture of the 787. If it had to, Boeing could manufacture the whole thing (or only use US subcontractors) but it would be more expensive to do so & the fact that much of the 787 is manufactured overseas is a major selling point in those countries where part of the 787 is manufactured.

NG has NOTHING to do with the design/developement, manufacture/assembly of the A330 while Boeing DID design/developement & DOES manufacture/assembly the 767. What NG does is take a “green” A330-200 designed/developed & manufactured/assembled by EADS & modifies it into a KC-30.

But we are not talking about an airliner meant to for the global airline market. The KC-X is an aerial refueling tanker for the USAF.

The 787 is completely irrelevant to the KC-X. Boeing’s proposal is based on the 767 & NOT the 787.

A lot of people DO care if a vital military platform is manufactured overseas rather than in the US by a US company. I am not saying that is a reason to reject the KC-30 but there ARE valid national interest reasons to go with the KC-767AT.

Sorry but the KC-30″ would not be “ours” until the “green” A330-200 is delivered to NG. Prior to that its ownership is still that of EADS (though its subsidiaries Airbus & EADS North America). And it would not be until some time after 2020 when received the 175th operational KC-30…

Well that proves what the Uinon was complaining about Boeing Outsourcing there jobs to other Asian countries. They outsourced more of the 787 to foreign countries. So what would happen if China stopped making parts for the 787 and 777. What would happen to Boeing Tanker program then. Heck Japan could get made and stop makig the 767 parts. If Boeing built the planes all in the US the cost would be 2x as much as if they had let the asian built it

Oldest391,

Typical hypicritical EADS/KC-30 Kool-Aid drinker BS.

What happens if any of the suppliers of parts for the A330 stopped making them? ;)

Nothing would happen to the US tanker program if China stopped making parts for the 787 and 777 BECAUSE THE BOEING PROPOSED TANKER IS BASED ON THE 767. And there is NOTHING China makes which could not be made elsewhere.

Boeing is perfectly capable of building (&/or finding an alternate supplier of) any part to any of its aircraft.

Let’s look at the choices. Boeing offerings — U.S company, many proven platforms, 737 variant for Navy P-8 program could be altered(?), did I mention it is a U.S. company? Northrop — Another U.S. company. What are they offering? Airbus offerings — Uh, what? Oh, let’s buy foriegn items, again. Great idea. Not!

Why worry about an RFP? The Democrats in Congress from Washington and Kansas will get legislation pushed through to award the contact to Boeing whether they have the superior airframe or not. So much for an unbiased contract award.

And by the way, Boeing aircraft are not made in America, they are assembled in America.

Patriot: So the USAF should buy a Boeing tanker that doesn’t meet its specs because Boeing also sells a different plane to the Navy?

Uh…run that one by me again, I think I missed something.

DensityDuck,

What specs doesn’t the KC-767AT meet?

The KC-767AT MORE THAN meets the KC-X requirements. In fact it met ALL key requirements (NG/EADS & the KC-X source selection team failed to reasonably justify that the KC-30 did) & meet far more non-key requirements than the KC-30. 

It doesn’t require billions of dollars in infrastucture improvemnet just to do what the KC-135s do & costs billions of dollars less to operate & maintain than the KC-30.

So the USAF should buy an Airbus/EADS tanker that doesn’t meet its specs (even after they were altred to accomodate it) & will cost tens of billions of dollars more over the life of the program because you want to punish Boeing for the mistakes the USAF made?

Hey pfcem:

Check this out…

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/62/211260102_bf6047a56b.jpg?v=0

thanks…

The Air Force was a loser either way.
And the Gulf Coast could only win if the Airbus tanker was built. 

If the Air Force got a new tanker that met their needs
A right sized and proven plane
They had to go to a foreign producer
(but the jobs created in the US would be the same as the Boeing proposal)
Notwithstanding, the Air Force would be cursed for not buying American
Even though either plane would have similiar US made content. Boeing’s outsourcing is huge. 

And if the Air Force simply did a charity donation of the contract to Boeing
They had to take what was offered –
And wait till Boeing could deliver
And be ready to buy parts from China for the life of the ship.
Because the 767 was obsolete airship.

In the end, the political whores in Washington do not care whether the Air Force gets what they need and want.

They only care that elected policical prostitutes in Washington are re-elected while trading favors amongst themselves–and sucking thier subsidies from the ever present well funded lobbyists. 

The fact that the political system produces anything at all is quite amazing. 

The real loser in this is the Gulf Coast–which was bidding to create a new Aerospace Industry, create jobs and tax bases and has been denied by the political whores one more time. You can’t trust Rednecks. They need to be put down and Boeing needs to be sustained. 

Whit.

Whit, I hope you realize that Boeing is the biggest employer for aerospace in Alabama.

Whit Marsh,

What are you smoking? 

No, the USAF only looses if it ends up with the KC-30, which it REJECTED for not meeting its need in 2002.

Why does the Gulf Coast have to win? What about the rest of the US?

No, the US DOES NOT have to go to a foreign producer. The RIGHT sized tanker (which is MUCH more proven than the “competition”) is built right here in the USA (MANUFACTURED & ASSEMBLED in Washington State & MODIFIED in Kansas).

No way assembly & modification supports the same jobs as mamufacturing, assemlby & modification do.

The US content of the KC-767AT would be ~85% vs ~58% for the KC-30 — NOT EVEN CLOSE!

There never was nor will there ever be a “charity donation of the contract to Boeing”. Airbus/EADS “needs” the KC-X contract MUCH more than Boeing. 

Boeing is MORE THAN happy to provide the USAF with what ever it asked for & from 2001 thru 2007 that was the KC-767.

Boeing can deliver just as many tankers just as quickly as EADS can.

Don’t confuse there not being a large market for NEW airliners that carry ~180 3-class passengers up to over 6500nm (because that segment is already filled with the 767-200s currently in service) with obsolescence. The 767-200LRF is every bit as modern & advanced ans any A330 & the KC-767AT is every bit as modern & advanced as the KC-30. Once the 787 & A350 reach full production (filling every medium-long range market from ~200 to ~350 3-class passangers) orders for the A330 will stop fairly quickly.

If the Gulf Coast wants to create a new Aerospace Industry let it do so in the free market, nobody is denying them. Hell if a new Gulf Coast Aerospace Industry is your biggest concern, pay Boeing to modify 767-200LRFs into KC-767ATs in Alabama (I am sure the fine people of Kansas won’t like it though).

And since when is Boeing strictly a US producer. They are behind on the “dreamliner” production and delivery. Some customers are threatening to sue them over it. In addition,after read “Boeing Frontiers” online anyone can see their focus and plans. How many jobs did Boeing outsource? And I do not mean in the US. Let us mention a few: UK, Italy, Japan, and the list goes on. They are competing in the global market place. They are also sending jobs that way. Northrup/EADS were doing the opposite. They were bringing jobs into the US, building new facilities and creating thousands of jobs across the southeast US. In addition, US taxpayers have now paid millions on the awarded and later cancelled contract. US tax payers now own a multimillion dollar aircraft which is sitting on the ground. What will happen to that Tanker? Any idea how Boeing’s plan are going to build an MRO in India? I wonder if they will hire US citizens to work there?

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