Wynne Criticizes Young’s F-22 Decision

Wynne Criticizes Young’s F-22 Decision

UPDATED: Mike Wynne, former secretary of the Air Force, sharply criticized yesterday’s decision by John Young, undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, to approve advanced funding for a small number of F-22s. “This gives efficient acquisition a very bad name, as everyone knows this level of quantity will lead to high prices…”

The Pentagon plans to buy four more F-22s in the next supplemental spending bill and Young announced Wednesday that he has approved Air Force spending of as much as $50 million for advance procurement.

“This ADM allows for the procurement of parts support for 4 aircraft beyond the 183 total F-22’s that DoD has already contracted for,” Young’s spokesman, Chris Isleib, said in an email.


Young pointed out in a statement that the draft Pentagon budget for 2010 does not include money for F-22s. The newly approved ADM provides “a bridge to a January decision by the next administration” on whether and how many more F-22s to buy, up to the congressionally mandated ceiling of $140 million for up to 20 F-22.

But Wynne, a committed supporter of the F-22, said he did not think the decision reflected either what Congress wanted or what the the defense secretary wanted. “To some this responds to what the SecDef said, but reflects neither his nor Congress’ intent,” he said.

Before spending the new advance procurement money, the president must certify the country’s need for the new planes, as required in section 134 of the 2009 National Defense Authorization Act.

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Fantastic, the more Raptors in our inventory, the better!

As a Vietnam Vet & Disabled these planes can fly circles around anything in the world today and for the for see able future. My OINC was a POW and our Guys deserve the BESTTTTT !!!!!

‘HJ” aka Marty in Nam

Thats just AWESOME! I’m still hoping that they will go back to the original plan of 381 F-22’s to give me of a chance of getting a F-22 slot when I go in the USAF.

The F-22 is a very key piece of hardware for supporting US policy in the future. The US military strategy is based upon achieving air superiority first. The problem is will the next administration view the F-22 as an asset or a cash cow?

Only four?, well it’s a start. I have a feeling that Obama will cut that and a whole lot more. After he’s done, we won’t be able to fight our way out of a paper bag.

I was in the Air Force for 6 years, 4 as a Security Police Specialist maintaining Security of B-52’s and Weapon Storage areas, then Contracting Specialist for my remaining enlistment. Now I work in a DLA Labority for Clothing and Textiles for all of our war fighters and non-war fighters! Yes I love what I’m doing for our Troop’s.Is there information I can receive regarding the Air Force ?

Thank You,
Stephen M.Puskar

The more we have, the better.

My group builds the Vertical Stabilizers for the F-22. I was lucky enough to go on a flight aboard a KC-135 on a refueling mission over Eglin AFB, Florida. We refueled 6 F-22 Raptors and 8 F-15s. I got to lay in the ‘pod’ while they were taking fuel and listen to the conversation between the boomer and the pilots. The boomer told the F-22 pilots who I was and they all expressed their pleasure with the F-22s and their operating capabilities. The USAF wants as many as they can get. The F-22 is a very expensive piece of equipment, but it IS complete air superiority for the USA.

The reason he’s approving now is so Obama won’t be able to cut that portion of the funding.

Remember it’s barney fairy frank who wants to cut the defense budget as well.

The defense budget will be cut, partially cause I don’t think frank will find a boyfriend among these hardcore politicians, lol, just kidding.

I have to disagree. Four more F-22’s will have little to no impact on the U.S. Security posture. However, the money spent on these four fighters could instead be utilized to procure more Predators which there is a vast shortage of and additional F-35 JSF which are comparable to the current F-16 with added stealth capability.

I agree that four fighters will have no impact whatsoever on security posture, but it makes me wonder, why 4 and not 14, it’s not like we don’t have the funds for them?

Six months from now I doubt we’ll have enough defense budget left to afford windshield wash for the planes.

Nice! Good news. Yea Tim, I think he is going to hold a “Military going out of business sale” I’m sure he’ll just close everything down Jan 21st. His prices ARE insane!

As usual the Bush administration thinks it know more than the people of the USA and it’s elected members in Congress. Congress appropriated $150 million for advance procurement of 20 fighters. Gates and Young (and Bush) shoot Congress the finger and will only release $50 million for four jets.

This is being done to assure the program is killed in 2010.

We should all e-mail the new prez and tell him not to cut out the F22’s from our defense budget
America needs to stay on top in every category!

Terry,
It is Gates that is no friend of the Air Force. He has gone out of his way to kill this critical program. Gates is doing this to favor a less capable air superiority fighter — the F35. I worked on the F-22 when it was the ATF — there is nothing in this world that can counter it.

Also, the F-15C can run circles around the F-16 in air-to-air combat. Same for a matchup between the F22 and F35. The F22 can shoot a flight of F35s between the eyes before the F35s even know he is the neighborhood.
Consider that Gates and the Democrats want to kill the next generation air superiority fighter while 20% of the current F-15 fleet is still grounded due to stress fractures in their airframes. The F-16 fleet is now encountering similar stress cracks.

So, Gates’ plan is to stop the only production for new aircraft today, while hoping there are no delays to the eventual production of F-35s and at the same time betting that we will not ground a large portion of our fighter fleet.

The Army and Marines had best pray that Gates and the Democrats are correct, because if they are not, these guys will be in Harm’s way big time.

While it is great that the production line will remain open, this is nothing more that another example of the Gates management style of kicking the can to the next Administration. Gates and Young could have released all $150M and if Obama’s Administration wanted to kill this plane, it is easy and plenty of this $150M would be returned.

The F-22 in mass is the only way, the F-35 is an adjunct to it. We don’t want to end up like the Brits in the Falklands with Harriers Fighting off Mirage fighters. The Euro Fighter Typhoon can run circles around the F-15, so you can bet that the SU-27 and mig-31 and mig-34 can too! Billions of dollars in R&D for less than 200 aircraft, are you kidding! F-22 now of an f-25 or F-42 in six years! It just needs to be done! (and the Brits may well pull out of the F-35 project, leaving us holding the bag…)

Woot!

As a project engineer working on both the F-119 and the F-135 combustors at Pratt & Whitney, 8 more engines is great news!

Some of the arguments being made regarding the superiority of the F-22 over the F-35 are similar to the arguments that were made regarding why we needed more F-15’s than F-16’s. I’m all for an adequate number of F-22’s

However, there are other weapon systems that are currently in higher demand and are suffering from equipment shortfalls and in need of replacement (i.e. Tankers, Special Ops Helos, Predators, Global Hawks, etc…) that will provide better support for our ground troops than a couple of extra wings of F-22’s

The FA-22 is an amazing technology and watching it perform is something every American should see!
However, I do not forsee the new admin as “getting on board”. I believe the efforts of Undersec Young,are a shot in the dark at the 11th hour to at least get it on the table before the January turnover, as he was quoted,”…the draft Pentagon budget for 2010 does not include money for F-22s. The newly approved ADM provides “a bridge to a January decision by the next administration” …
Before spending the new advance procurement money, the president must certify the country’s need for the new planes,” Soooo — don’t get your hopes up. The funds will likely be shifted the less-expensive UAV technologies with Obama.
The F-22’s a fine bird, but like many of us Fine Ladies, she’s expensive!

Aim High!

I currently work on both the F-22 & F-35 programs, and I am biased on stating that they are both outstanding aircraft. The F-22 owns the sky! Nothing else comes close. In Alaska, it was pitted against four F-15’s on numerous sorties, and the F-15’s never got a shot,and were blown out of the sky. The pilots complained because they never had a chance nor saw it coming. As for the F-35 the potential is great for the entire NATO world. With all of our current fighter aircraft approaching 25 to 30 years of age, we need this technology and capability. The free world needs superior firepower in the air.

I suggest all of you make this argument to your congressmen. It’s a great place to start.

I am disappointed the censors would not print my comments on how and why the rest of the world is happy over the Obama election. Obama ia more Arab, than African, More engrained with the rest of the world, by many points over McCain. Obama is happily celebrated in Iran, Syria , Palestine and Lebanon. Now why is that ?
ALSO, the F-22’s show a great proclivity to as much a morale booster as they do the morale dismay of those who think they must try to go head to head with it.
Obama has blood relatives closer than 45 km from the Al Qaeda camp in Kenya. His father is less than 8 km from this post. How can these people not attack Obama’s family ? Why would any other American official not have his family in this close striking distance and not move out to do more of their cowardice terrorist deeds.
The answer is obvious. 85% of Iran, Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Libya, Argentina, Venzuela and even Russia celebrated Obama’s victory more than we did. He won by larger popularity in these countries than he did by political vote in the USA. Again, why ?
I suggest to you, thru very channeled and accurate information, that these other countries stand much more to gain, than the Americans who put Obama in office.
Political upheaval in times past in Russia have lead to their now wanting to take areas formerly considered Soviet Union real estate. Now they will act on their own, as in Ossieta, as the Serbs did in Kosovo, Iraq is the closest area that mimics a swing vote in the USA because no accurate data could be obtained by CIA or even news media, where the 85% approval numbers came from in the first place.
Obama can not pull forces out of Iraq, we are not going anywhere anytime soon from Iraq, and that is a political certainty.
WIth a pool of Squadron of F-22’s within striking distance and a “Few Good Men” on the ground with unilateral power to do the bidding of the people of the USA and Iraqi people, we would reduce or cut out USA casualties, but stand the chance of more and deadlier collateral damage.
In short, Obama is not taking anybody out of Iraq, Hell, we have enough trouble just keeping the dam at Mosul holding back the water which would cause floods all the way to Baghdad if it were lost . And make no mistake, it is a target for terrorists, which would hopefully drown in the 60 feet of flood water in Mosul if the dam is destroyed. Even maintaining this dam takes around the clock work.

Take this place serious, take care of business in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Syria, just do it like our buddy Bill Casey and a few good men did for this country.

Iraq and Afghanistan, maybe should just divide Pakistan, giving India the mountainous regions and keeping the other areas for target practice for the 4 extra F-22’s, cause we will never be popular in these regions, except by those who wish not to be ruled by a Hussein again, Hussein being the last name, not the MIDDLE name.
Ask the troops how they were treated when obama came into the outposts of Iraq. I was there. He ignored the front lines, in favor of the sheltered areas of safety and kiss-ass people who are would be General Clarks and now Colin Powell.
Make no mistake, the world is happier because Obama won by his voters, but he won by much larger margins in the rest of the world. SO with all the ongoing political contributions and now his new approach towards ” Ethics” on his staff members, ruling out experienced Military people, who’s won the election ? The rest of the world people.. wake up !
Will you print these comments now Military​.com or should I vocalize this on YOU-Tube ? I thought censors should let the original message get thru, but I think you also may be powered by Obamaism ! Then comes Communism.

Spooky — Yikes! You’re right… (Everyone else in the world is wrong) I don’t even know where to begin so I won’t even try. You should try Alaska though, seriously.

TYou know at. least. you could try TO post as though you’d gradduted from, High School, English class, perhaps you’ve, heard of it? i thought so. HEY MILITARY​.COM CENSOR THISSSS!!!!11!

There are some that are already projecting that Obama will change his position regarding pulling troops out of Iraq and will extend the need of a U.S. present in Iraq beyond 2010.

Also, there are those that are saying the official position regarding Afghanistan is a no-win situation and will look for a diplomatic solution that will allow the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan which will then fall to Al Qaida and to increase manpower strengths within the Army and Marines to an additional 25,000 troops strength, the Democratically controlled congress will propose enacting a draft which President Obama will approve, and finally the sky is falling the end is near and California will fall into the sea. I think I read that on the internet somewhere

This request was just to keep the line open. Gates and Gordon England are pushing for an increase in the number of F-35s being purchased initially. They have stated that the F-35 is the future of our air forces.

Wynne and others contradicted Gates in public about the need for more F-22s and less F-35s. He was fired for that and other reasons.

Whatever happened to letting the professionals make the decisions about the weapons they go to war with? Go against the grain and you get fired.

DC2

The funds for 4 more Raptors may keep the line open a little longer, but from what I hear, it won’t keep really give President-elect Obama time to make a responsible decision on whether to continue production or to shutter the line. Sounds like Obama would have to make a decision soon after his inauguration. I think that is what Gates/Gordon had planned all along. They want the Raptor line killed. You’d think that the AirForce Chief of Staff and Sec of the AirForce would know if more Raptors are needed. Gates/Gordon apparently have more insight to what is best for the AF. Jeez.

Mr. Obama will kill the F-22 and the F-35, along with all new military weapon systems. He is a pacifist. He believes he can talk to our enemies and beg them not to hurt us. He has said that even if attacked with nuclear weapons, it would be wrong to respond in kind.God help us all.

“We don’t want to end up like the Brits in the Falklands with Harriers Fighting off Mirage fighters.“
xxx
SeaHarriers shot down 21 Argentine aircraft in combat for ZERO losses.
WTH is wrong with that?

“Mr. Obama will kill the F-22 and the F-35, along with all new military weapon systems. He is a pacifist. He believes he can talk to our enemies and beg them not to hurt us. He has said that even if attacked with nuclear weapons, it would be wrong to respond in kind“
xxx
These comments show an ignorance Rush would be proud of. The sheer stupidity is astounding.

You guys are doing great!
Keep up with the good work.

General Dynamics, OOPS Lockheed Martin develop a fine weapons platform. I think we all realize that the state of our ecconomy dictates the number of fighter jets we can afford to fabricate.

I spose that if you can SEE a f-22 . you know how it works and how good it is..

Air supremacy is the key to winning a battle on the ground. A rather large battle. Wat have we been doing lately? Obama is NOT gonna strip the military, and Gates wants $ to fight THIS war. More UAV’s, Reapers, all the way down to the sqaud level. Knowing wats on the other side of that ridge is wat I wanna know. 183 for now, and lets see wat develops. Don’t believe all the hype about the Su-27 etcetera, etcetera…

We want whatever it takes to keep our military strong and our service members with the best support ever!

Senator McCain would have been the answer but, the majority of American people have spoken… heaven help us all!

Senator McCain would have been the answer but, the majority of American people have spoken… heaven help us all!

Heaven did help you all. Palin said it’s in god’s hands and god has decided. Get over it.

XXXXX

Yeah, right. The man that was against the new GI bill. The one that ensures that wounded soldiers can get the care they should be getting w/o a lot of b/s on the side. Not to mention improved opportunities in education and trades that previous generations of vets got.
While he and Bush were against this bill, when Bush had to sign it, he tried to give McCain credit for it knowing full well that McCain was against it too.

Only one poster nailed the purpose of the F-22. It is a weapon platform.

Given improved weapons, any of our existing weapon platforms can carry the battle to the enemy. Keeping the F-15 or F-16 lines open would have been a much better solution. New weapon platforms based on proven technology carrying the world’s best weapons is the only way to go–unless you need to provide R&D jobs. An even worse reason to argue for bleeding edge “fighters”: if you happen to be a retired military officer with your hand in the tax payer’s cookie jar–you’d have a reason to back the F-22, F-35, and other future weapon platforms.

Steve,

Thanks GOD you are not making ANY decisions concerning our military.

I agree with Steve. Expand that view across the board. For the P-8, we are using converted airliners. We could modify other aircraft to conduct supply, refueling, long-range loiter, etc. Picture a 747 as a mobile missile platform say as an extension of THAAD or heavy lift. different tires, different engines, but same overall purpose. Deliver product where it needs to be.

I do like the F-22’s, and I do think we need them to counter forces from CHN and RUS, but it’s unrealistic to have a fleet of them. Upgrade the F-15’s and –16’s with vectored thrust, conformal tanks which increase stealthiness and improve range, and make some awesome weapons to reach out and touch someone.

I enjoy the obvious critical thinking process behind the comments for and against the Raptor…and also about other weapons systems and military processes that need refurbishment.

However, when it comes to the political aspects of what some are posting…reading that nonsense is enough to pull what little hair I have left right out of my cranium.

There are those that continue to castigate President Elect Obama as if he is the Anti-Christ. The man is going to be the President…how insipid is he supposed to be? There is not one President alive or dead that managed to fulfill every single ideal or issue he thought was important or mentioned as part of his platform while running for election.

Not only that, but most politicians if not all usually experience a “coming of age” so to speak after taking office. They usually find that a lot of the rhetoric they were forced to spew has nothing to do with real life or the management and direction of a nation as great ours.

I just cannot believe the level of ignorance and fear demonstrated by individuals who feel as if this nation is threatened from within because a man named Obama is getting ready to take office. I’m not an Obama supporter but so far he’s not managed to sexually harrass a female worker, so far he’s not managed to create a hostile environment between the military, secret service, and the presidential staff. So far he has not managed to strip the military structure so far down to the bone that when a miltary conflict occurred troops did not have the proper equipment. So far he has not selected a command staff that when questioned by junior NCO’s about why they did not have the proper equipment the answer was “what would you rather go to war with, equipment you’d like to have or what you already have?” (Paraphrase).

We (this country) needs to stop urinating and crying about Obama and start working on our elected officials and begin pressuring them to get out country ready for the next major conflict.

Here’s some ideas:
Reset our military and replace our depleted/ damaged equipment levels to include replacing all forward deployed non-used but stressed items.

Continue the development and use of land and space based ISR technology

Understand the economics of the drug trade and how and why it’s destabilizing our southern borders

Strengthen our critical infrastructure (railways, tunnels, shipping, electricity, roadways). We’ve already seen what natural disasters can do. The damage may not be preventable but the response can always be better and different. If this nation cannot respond correctly to a natural disaster what are we going to do when the next terrorist attack comes?

Begin training the everyday citizen to understand the biggest and least expensive sensor that can be employed to detect anomolous
activity is in fact the citizen.

People need to wake-up and stop the “sheep centered” group think. The best armed soldier in the world is a smart, non-biased, intelligent and well informed American…wake-up, be informed, and learn about what’s going on around you.

“I do like the F-22’s, and I do think we need them to counter forces from CHN and RUS, but it’s unrealistic to have a fleet of them. Upgrade the F-15’s and –16’s with vectored thrust, conformal tanks which increase stealthiness and improve range, and make some awesome weapons to reach out and touch someone.”

By the time that you’re finished upgrading an F-15 or F-16 with all of the latest electronics and avionics and redesigning the airframe to be stealthy you’ll have ended up with an F-22 and F-35 and wasted a lot of time and money in the process. You have to understand that the F-15 & F-16 are old, they were designed back in the late 60’s/early 70’s and there’s only so much that you can do with a 30 some odd year old design. Sure they can be upgraded to be a little better than they currently are but they’d still wouldn’t nearly as good as an F-22 or F-35 and would still end up being outclassed by every other next generation aircraft being fielded like the many SU-30 variants. We don’t want a fighter that’s only nearly as good or just as good as any other fighter out there, we want to better; much, much better.

For the record, Mike Wynne could not be more wrong. The Lockheed proposal for the Advanced procurement priced the 4 + 16 option at exactly the same price as contracting for 20. Plus, Lockheed made the 16 AP option valid until mid-March. The decision exactly reflects Secretary Gates intent — and Mike knows it.
20 more F-22’s will cost $3 billion — the next adminstration deserves the chance to decide whether to purchase these airplanes. The taxpayer should not waste $90 million buying parts for airplanes that may never be built. The F-22 and F-35 are both 5th generation fighters. The F-22 has an advantage in certain air-to-air missions. The F-35 has dramatic advantages in air-to-ground missions and has several capability features that the F-22 does not have. The Nation will have to spend over $8 billion just to get the F-22’s we have purchased to a full level of capability. This does not address the poor mission capability rate of F-22, the increasing cost of maintaining F-22, the failure of the F-22 to meet its requirements through operational test, and the extreme complexity and cost of developing future capability upgrades for the F-22’s highly integrated, 1980’s avionics architecture. No one wants to kill the program, but everyone should analyze this program based on facts and data instead of the logo on their sleeves or their profit motives.

I hope all you spend the last dime in the bank dorks get all the crap you want, In less than ten years this flying fart will be obosleet. But the US taxpayers will still be paying for your wanting to have a better toy. The country is broak, no medical for anywone even the VA sucks. but you get to watch them chop this flying fart, cut into little pices in you lifetime. Get your heads out of the military industrial machine cheeks and take a wake up pill.

Massiveguns, well said.

Lets fly !

I’m a little late weighin in but I don’t have to say much. John above got it all right. Your the man John, I’d almost bet I know you.

I helped write the first specs for the ATF back in the early 1980’s and have watched the program VERY closely ever since. Too many holes and overall a very disappointing effort no matter how you slice it. Given the current made-public performance numbers things are probably even worse.

It’s pretty obvious why this program is still alive.…the hillmen and the generals. A wise man told me once that there were only three things in life that I could count on: I’ll pay taxes, I’ll die and the AF will “need” a new fighter.

OPPOS. Over Priced piece of shit. No one jet does it all, this is not the save all of the US armed forces. It has the same frickin radar as the Super Hornet! ohhhhhh-ahhhhhhhhhh it’s stealth! and has “simulated kill ratio” of 144 to 0. Frickin air farce acts liek a totally seprate entity of the US armed forces, no Marines, Army Navy needed, we are all just idiots, all that is required is the awesome F-22, what a joke. Kil the damn thing and spend the money elsewhere. airborne laser technology is more deadly than any airplane. And do you suppose that a carrier borne aircraft can kill a bogie? no way!? Hornets have been combat proven since Desert storm, are cheaper to pruce and very lethal. I so tired of hearing of the wonderful OPPOS F-22 it makes me wana puke.

always entertaining and yet disturbing to see the expert opinions of highly-uneducated yet still great Americans who might vote. Please guys–you don’t see me telling you how to clean up vomit, don’t tell us what the AF needs. (Do use spell check for pete’s sake)

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