JSF Not Very Stealthy: Air Power Australia Says

JSF Not Very Stealthy: Air Power Australia Says

Air Power Australia’s Dr. Carlo Kopp has got to be the least favorite person in Lockheed Martin/Joint Strike Fighter circles. The Australian think tank/web site/journal puts out some impressively detailed assessments of modern aircraft, including western, Russian and Chinese models, and air defense systems.

Now, just to be clear on agendas, Kopp is a HUGE fan of the F-22 and thinks Australia is wasting money with its planned buy of some 100 JSF. But his analyses are compelling and certainly more detailed than anything the Air Force or Lockheed Martin put out.

Back in November, Kopp wrote a lengthy assessment of the JSF’s air combat capabilities, rebutting what he called “remarkable claims” by the JSF team. Kopp says claims that the JSF could outperform the Sukhoi Su-35 “Flanker” in air combat were “impossible to reconcile” with what is known about the Russian built aircraft and JSF capabilities. Advances in counter-stealth radar and other technologies have “rendered the concept of the Joint Striker Fighter obsolete before it has even completed Flight Test or entered full rate production.” The JSF would be unable to best future Flanker variants in either beyond visual range or within visual range air combat, he writes. It is seriously outgunned by its payload of only two internally carried missiles, whereas the Flanker carries up to twelve beyond visual range missiles, allowing multiple salvoes.


Kopp’s latest paper, out this week, attacks the idea that the JSF could be used as a penetrating strike aircraft. The JSF is not a true stealth aircraft, like the B-2 and F-22, because its design “departs strongly from key stealth shaping rules,” after design changes altered the lower fuselage of the aircraft during early development. Instead of a smooth, flat bottom, the JSF has “multiple specular reflecting shapes, specifically due to singly and doubly curved lower fuselage surface feature shaping.” Those shapes makes the JSF’s radar cross section appear more like a conventional fighter aircraft, rather than a stealthy one. He writes that the JSF “can provide genuinely good stealth performance only in a fairly narrow ~29° sector about the aircraft’s nose.”

I found the most interesting part of the paper to be its very detailed discussion of current and in development Russian air-defense systems and radar performance. Kopp concludes that the JSF would be unable to stealthily penetrate modern SAM systems, particularly the new generation search and targeting radars and long range missiles included in the S-300 and S-400 series. Rather than fixed in dense SAM belts, such as those that lined the German frontier in Cold War days, the new Russian air defense systems are highly mobile, and staggered in depth, “to ensure that a penetrating aircraft must get past two or three missile batteries to break through these defenses.” He likened the overlapping radar and missile coverage to that of cell phone tower coverage. The JSF would have to shoot its way through such defenses in a version of a pre-stealth era air suppression campaign.

Again, Kopp does not hide his aircraft preferences: “the operational economics of a fighter force using the Joint Strike Fighter will be much inferior to a force using a true all aspect stealth aircraft such as the F-22A Raptor.” Nonetheless, his analysis of the JSF and modern Russian built air defense systems is one of the most detailed found in open sources and is well worth consideration.

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You have got to be kidding.…

Kopp has been consistently debunked for his complete lack of research and anti-JSF bias.

He has always put the FSF in the worst light and Russian equipment in the best light.

File this article (Kopp’s) under Fiction.

If Kopp had the clearance to know what he was talking about, then he wouldn’t be talking about it.

If Australia is so dang smart, why don’t they build their own fighter aircraft? Hmmmph.

The F-35 won’t be the best stealth fighter. It will be the best stealth fighter that is safely exportable to a wide variety of countries with a wide variety of security concerns.

Having a clearance doesn’t mean one can ignore the laws of physics.

ELP, nobody said that the F-35 is the best fighter, that is the F-22.

Being that you are a fellow Eric, and therefore must have something that keeps your ears from imploding, please let Kopp sulk in the corner while screaming “I’m right because I said so.”

The F-35 has more modern processors/systems, etc. than the F-22, but the F-22 is inherently more stealthy. So would in make sense to develop a new block of F-22’s using F-35 avionics? Or does it make more sense to develop a new block of F-18E/F’s and F-16’s that use the F-35 electronics? If the F-35 is not particularly stealthy, not particularly maneuverable, and costs twice as much as a F-18/F-16, it seems like an attractive alternative.

Charley A.

The F-35 is very stealthy, is as or more maneuverable than the F-16 & F/A-18 in combat configuration & SHOULD cost ~25–50% (depending on varient) more than a new F-16 but ~25–50% (depending on varient) less than a new F/A-18.

PLEASE do not fall for Air Power Australia’s BS. They have an axe to grind against the F-35 because it was chosen by Australia over their COMPLETE & UTTER FANTACY F-22 & massively upgraded F-111 combo.

Clearly, Air Power Australia and Carlos Kopp have an axe to grind and there Anti F-35 bias is well known.….…Funny, on how the “Lockheed Martins” F-22 is unbeatable. Yet, the newer “Lockheed Martins” F-35 is junk???

To pfcem — the real fantacy (sic) is that the F35 is the appropriate choice of aircraft for Australia. Frankly, regarding the F22, if the US won’t sell it to us we could always buy the latest SU35 from the Russians and get a way better deal.

It’s obvious how this will pan out: the US will sell us the F35 and a few years into the future the export ban on the F22 will be lifted. It’s the old package deal. If you buy the toaster we will throw in the steak knives.

What the stealth mafia doesn’t want to acknowledge,is that stealth is still not a practical or affordable enough technology for a large multitask fighter force. The F22 is more stealthy, but guess what? It can’t do anything besides fight in a dogfight and be invisible.

So lets buy more F22’s that we can’t use in Iraq and Afghanistan, or any conflict in which you have to drop ordinance. In fact , lets do what the U.S. Air Force wants, and lets cut military personnel, so we can buy a few more overpriced aircraft that don’t fit the mission objective. Sukkoi may just scratch up enough money to make a fifth gen fighter in the future, but the Indians are looking to support Mig Corp with the Mig-35 leaving Sukkoi left blowing in the wind.
http://​kuku​.sawf​.org/​A​r​t​i​c​l​e​s​/​5​1​2​2​.​a​spx

Another thing to consider. While developing countries may buy expensive hardware, their training and use of that equipment tends to pale in comparison to ours.

Sorry fellas,
who is here from the aviation world to judge Kopp? Who has the data to say he is wrong or right? The point is, based upon open sources and having decent knowledge of the way aviation works, its history etc., you CAN make pretty accurate analysis what is what. F-35 is not going to be “25 percent more expensive then F-16 and 25 percent cheaper then F/A-18 (BTW,C or E model???)”. Same wisdom is behind “F-22 can´t do anything besides dogfight” Where did you get such conjectures? Wikipedia? F-35 is going to be over 90 million por unit flyaway cost just because of its sheer empty weight and materials used plus technology applied. It is already 30 percent heavier then planned for the A model. Its T/W ration is certainly goint to be inferior to SU-30/35 of later models, same goes for wing loading. You can´t defy the laws of physcs and aerodynamics-and economy. Once major guardian angel of F-35 Gordon England is on its way from Pentagon, USAF will be the first for slashing down numbers from 48 per year to 36, 24 maybe??? Postponing by two years? Money will go to more useful F-22, CSAR helicopters, tankers…USAF sees F-22 as their cruical system anyway, not F-35, and the know better then us. Israelis, Japan will joint effort to break Obey amendment to permit exports of F-22. USAF will go for another three year contract for 60 F-22s. Navy likes F-18E/F more anyway, F-35 was forced upon them after the loss of A-12 and NATF. Marines will willingly accept slowdown of F-35B just to keep it alive and avoid being stuffed with Super Hornet they honestly despise. Once PAK-FA is in testing couple years from now, somebody will say it would be a great idea to make joint 6th generation fighter for both NAVY and USAF to replace F-22 25 years from now and give NAVY air superiority jet as they have just strike jets now and planned (Super Hornets and F-35C) in the future BECAUSE THE SHOW MUST GO ON:). Chincoms get their J-12 into the air in 2012 (guessing), Frech will start yelling that Europe has no 5th generation fighter on drawing boards not to mention in sercvice and SOMETHING has to be done. This time they have certain advantage over EADS, having secretly working on Japanese Shinshin fighter demonstrator RCS and who knows what else in past three years and will try to take the lead to avoid two same class Eurojets again. At that time Rafale and Tiffy 3rd. Batch being over the hill so no threat to producion plants. Add more advanced UCAS at that time, and what would F-35 look like that in that time is a big mystery. It may be nice strike jet, but not cheap, not “all can do”, not for everybody if we speak about technology transfer, and not a fighter! BTW, I thing asutralia will buy another 24 or something mixed Super Hornet/Growler fleet to add to theri curerntly purchased 24,a and go for 30–40 F-22, tell LM to call about the F-35 late and call it a day!

stoka,

PLEASE enlighten us as to what could POSSIBLY be a better choice of aircraft for Australia?

Sorry to burst your bubble but it is looking more & more like as soon as the 187th USAF F-22 is completed the production tooling will be destroyed in or to make sure NOBODY (enev the USAF) can even THINK of getting any F-22 beyond that point. This of course is among the most idiotic moves the US DOD has or will ever do.

***

moebius22,

The F-35 is LESS expensive than many 4th generation counterparts like the F/A-18E/F, Typhoon & Rafale…

Let me let you in on a little secret…the F-22 can & DOES drop ordinance. ;) In fact, the F-22 can drop ordinance (two 1000 lb JDAM or eight ‘250 lb’ SDB) from >50,000 ft while CRUISING (aka no afterburner) at >Mach 1.5.

“moebius22,

The F-35 is LESS expensive than many 4th generation counterparts like the F/A-18E/F, Typhoon & Rafale…”

No one knows the real expense of the F-35. It all depends on partners buying sufficient number of aircraft and no more surprises in testing. Look at how the F-22 has inflated in price over time with expensive upgrades(including a gun)and I’m pretty sure the F-35 will follow suit. Anyone saying otherwise is lying.

Let me let you in on a little secret…the F-22 can & DOES drop ordinance. ;) In fact, the F-22 can drop ordinance (two 1000 lb JDAM or eight ‘250 lb’ SDB) from >50,000 ft while CRUISING (aka no afterburner) at >Mach 1.5.”

All these cool features and it is not suited for Iraq and Afghanistan, which makes it a specialist aircraft.

The legacy craft we have now are more versatile than the Raptor, and cheaper. Not to say we shouldn’t buy any more Raptors, but the numbers we have now are fine as suggested by Bob Gates.

I meant buy any at all. We have enogh as it is.

ALL
As an old Avionics/Maintenance/AV8/F18c/F22/F35 design and development warrior. Plus some 23 years on the USN Heavies and Carriers Flight lines, I can speak with some level of expertise.
1. The F22, as it currently stands, has the best Avionics and Stealth combination in the Aviation World, hands down.
2. The F35, with all its variants, will do the work for the USMC, USN carrier fleet, and mostly satisfy any and all Foriegn buyers, regardless of bias.
3. The older birds, F18, AV8, F16 of all variants will be and are the mainstays of the USAF, USN and USMC. It will be many long years before we hear the last from these birds. Heck, we still have the venerable A10s flying somewhere. Add to that, the Allied Foriegn devils still fly old F4 McDonnell Douglas fighters.
4. Budget constraints, long lead funding, and maintenance of production lines, with an eye to multiply use aircrafts, will drive the Aerospace folks design and development, work effort.
My Opine.
In terms of future predictions, as to what costs what, and who buys what, is futile. No one can accurately tell us, just what funds will be available and by whom, as far into the future as next week. Take a hard look at your own portfolio and do a multiple force funding prediction on the state of the funds. Impossible.
end

“Duncan:Money will go to more useful F-22, CSAR helicopters, tankers…USAF sees F-22 as their crucial system anyway, not F-35, and the know better then us.”

The U.S. Air Force has lost all credibility with the with the Tanker, F22, F35, and Nuclear fiascoes. Gates had to bust some heads over there because they don’t know what the hell their doing.

Gordon England may be out, but Gates thank God is still in. Obama will likely give the Air Force its American made tankers and F22s to grease the palms of the Democrats in Congress so they can approve his initiatives.

“He has always put the FSF in the worst light and Russian equipment in the best light.“

He has to and in doing so is being responsible in the best sense of the word. Australia is facing a flanker threat on their doorstep.

The F-22 is designed as an air dominance fighter of the 5th Generation. It’s primarily tasked with air dominance over enemy airspace, eliminating enemy fighters like Russian built Sukhois and that. Air to ground capability is the Raptor’s secondary role.

The F-22 is more of an appropriate choice for Australia. Why?

1. Australia’s strategic location. It is a very large island country and a twin engined aircraft like the Raptor is very useful for long distances and over water.

2. Better dogfighting and performance capability. Thrust vectoring, supercruise and supermaneuverablity are the Raptor’s feats.

3. Superior long range AESA radar. The APG-77 AESA radar developed by Northrop Grumman can track targets over 200 km away and not set off RWRs on the target aircraft.

I think Carlo Kopp is a hard headed fellow who insists on buying F-22s even though it’s not available to foreign sale.

Yes, the F-22 may be better suited for RAAF’s needs but what can they do if the plane’s not available for sale?

And He’s Always over estimating any russian hardware..~ oh well thats what happened back in the days of MiG-25..

Foxbat turned out nothing more but a high altitude joyride… speed

This is the same company that employs Carlo Kopp or whatever his name is, the same guy that said the RAF would be better off having F-16’s than Typhoon’s…Yep, having an inferior aeroplane, i.e. F-16, is going to be better than having state of the art Typhoon. Of course it is.

And as for the F-22 & F-35? Who cares, they’re overhyped and overpriced! Especially the F-35, lets face it, no matter what country buys them, maybe apart from the UK, they’re NOT going to be at the spec of the US’s version because the arrogant & insecure yanks dont trust their friends & dont want to share their tech, which is unfair because when the friends of the US have something new they share with the yanks, check out the Bell X-1, which was IDENTICAL to the one the BRITISH HAD DEVELOPED before that and which of course, shared with the yanks, promised to let us know how things were and.…Didn’t, so thats why i say its overhyped & overpriced!

Firstly, I have known Carlo for a very long time (electronically) as some of his areas of expertise in military communications systems overlapped mine (I used to be employed designing and builing them for the DoD). In all this time I regard his work well thought out, very well researched, factual and timely.

As for the suitability of the F-35 for the RAAF; I can’t think of a less likely platform. It doesn’t do anything we need! Not one thing!

Australia is a very large island continent with a very small population. We have a requirement to defend an air-sea gap. This means a fast long range bomber that can strike maritime assets with a large payload, survive, and get back quickly. In all weather, night or day. To aid this asset, air-superiority over the flight path of a strike aircraft would be the optimal model.

Our neighbors (not that we are on particulary bad terms with any of them) are buying Su-30MK?s and Su-35s (in the near future). The F-35 doesn’t have a chance against one of the newer Su variants. It is slower, fatter, less manuverable, lower, out ranged and outgunned. And banging on about ‘stealth’ is ridiculous. The F-35 is not a terribly stealthy aircraft and already mechanisms are in production to remove what little is left.

Assuming that we actually do want to defend ourselves, then we must realise that if foriegn troops want to occupy this land they have to come here by sea. That means we need a plane that can fight over the sea, with long and fast legs. This is not the F-35A.

It’s a work of fiction anyway, the F-35A is yet to fly. Not once, and yet we are being fed all sorts of stories about it’s “super powers”.

It’s a fat, little, slow plane that can’t carry much that goes BOOM!

The F-111 is a perfect asset to meet our requirements, and they need not be retired yet. And a replacement should be sourced. Yes Carlo is very much in favour of the F-22. I would like to see a mixture of Su-35 and Su-34 flying with a skippy paint job. Manufactured here and serviced here.

f 35 and f 22 are .….…scamsXD
neither of them is stealth , they cost a leg.
They have been built by people that want money , not to make the best aircraft ‚but the most expensive, in the same idea of the B2 or commanche , the most expensive thing possible , but are completly useless (execpt in wet americans dreams of world domination) .
None of them performed very well when we compare them to other fighters and what they cost, lots of lies , lots of false tests , lot of corruption…
In fact no stealth technology exists .If it existed , if what is promised existed , wars would be won , fighters would be deployed without question , whatever the prices.The problem is : f 22 and f 35 are myths , not reality , the fighters dont have the capabilities that they are supposed to have.They have pathetic payload , pathetic range of operation and are fragiles and expensive to repair, the VTOL is a useless gadget and USAF pilots lacks trainning as most ewars show it. These are toys , not rugged weapons of war.
They re meant to be bought by corrupted generals without enemies , who play to drop bombs on civilians.….
I laugh when i see the comments…seriously guys ? u really belive in invisible aircrafts ?! muahahahaha how stupid , how naive , how proud !
best fighters in the world ? none , coz none is useful now , the era of tanks and planes is over.…so obvious !

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