AF Likely to get 60 More F-22s; Allies Out of Luck

AF Likely to get 60 More F-22s; Allies Out of Luck

The Air Force’s chief of staff was careful to withhold his professional military advice until Defense Secretary Robert Gates gets it, but Gen. Norton Schwartz told reporters this morning that he would not “dispute” comments by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs late last year that the service would get an additional 60 F-22s, for a total of 243.

Schwartz then poured cold water on any hopes the Japanese and Australians might have of buying F-22s, saying some of the technologies in the plane are just too sensitive to export. However, he said “it was a possibility” that allies could pay for planes that were modified extensively enough to eliminate the export concerns. Given how expensive that would be, Schwartz has probably put the kibosh on export sales.

The Air Force chief of staff defended the decision to scale back the long sacred Air Force requirement of 381 F-22s, saying the service had performed honest and objective analysis to determine the new number of planes. “I’ll be happy to defend the numbers once they become available,” he told us, adding that the new fleet size offers “moderate risk” to the nation.

Of course, this doesn’t necessarily mean that 60 is the exact number everyone has decided on, but Schwartz didn’t try to pour cold water on it either… He did say the final decision should be out very close to the congressionally mandated date of March 1.

In addition, Schwartz hinted the service would probably find money in its own budget to pay for more F-22s if that is the decision. However, he didn’t directly address the question, saying the service generally pays for what it buys.

Asked about John Young’s comments last November that the F-22’s mission capable rate was too low and expected enhancements too expensive for the country to afford, Schwartz said “the truth of the matter is” the F-22’s rate is 60 percent including stealth issues and is “in the mid– to high-70s without low observable” issues. Looking at the system overall, the F-22’s reliability “is respectable,” he said.

And Schwartz reiterated a long-standing position of the military, namely that jobs are not a criteria for him and his colleagues to consider when they make decisions about which weapons to buy. However, he made clear that other parts of the government — can you say Congress? — do have this responsibility and he knows they will act accordingly.

On other Air Force issues, Schwartz threw a dart at John Young, undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, saying that CSAR-X is a joint requirement, “notwithstanding the acquisition executive’s views…” Young has questioned whether the CSAR-X requirement is valid, saying other assets such as the V-22 could do the same job.

Finally, Schwartz offered a very good line about whether the Air Force should worry about its roles in view of Gates’ oft-repeated comments about balance and the right mix of forces, which many have interpreted to mean the Air Force and Navy will have to scrap systems designed during the Cold War. The service’s “contribution is what we should focus on, more than the attribution…”

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Gen.Schwartz might consider the F-22 technologies ‘to sensitive’ for Japanese and Australians but he should consider who the US Government calls in when they want ‘a coalition’ to support some war. Technology transfers between strong allies and their committment to protect that technology should not be an impediment to purchase any equipment.

Typical Air Force. If we want continued cooperation from Japan, Australia and other allies, I think that it would be in our best interests to share a little.

I often wondered why chemical companies were info addees on certain messages re: body counts
until I realized they produced agent orange…
It’s all about PROTECTING SECRETS… Some of our tech is so advanced to keep us on top of and ahead of the rest of the world that we ignore those same friends who helped keep us afloat in hard times. That is no secret… We bail out some jerkwater third world country which is more of a drag than welfare in our own country. Shore up the defenses of those that have proven themselves and they will help us again…

F-22’s,V-22’s should not matter as long as we do not produce more than expense ratios can handle. It is more important to decide in what alliance stategy they will be used in with current aviation assets in service to diminish any weakness below 65%. Is it possible to fly these birds in flight groups to enable it’s advantages to be maximized,while using existing assets to minimize it’s weaknesses, with upgrades?
As far as allies, well fix us first. Get operational then supply the decided upon version to export.

Most of this pressure to export is a result of desperation that exporting will keep F-22 production lines open. If the Air Force got its 380 aircraft, most people(except for AIPAC) wouldn’t be too concerned about F-22 exports.

Let’s sell to our strong Allies. This makes political and military sense and might bring the unit cost of the aircraft down.

I’m one of the guys who believe we should NOT sell to any other countries. I’ll bet Russia, China and others would find a way to buy or steal the high tech info.…That’s what the Soviets have done for decades. Why spend billions on Research and Development when you can catch up on the cheap ? Remember when they thought it would take 15–20 years for USSR to make a nuclear bomb ? We should not fool ourselves. It would be naive to think Russia is our friend. As an example, they reverse engineered the B-29..they would do the same for the F-22.

As a retired military and current builder of the F-22, my job is hanging in the wind. I personally see no reason to keep this technology from our strongest Allies, we could also “dumb down ” the plane enough to sell to our Allies..

The US Government has to determine who it allies really are. Sharing technology is the cornerstone of building a strong defense against forces that are more oftern and not called upon in support of the US Government foreign policies.

This is a two way street, what would the US Government say if the British Government started reining in the CIA’s activities in the UK under the same protectionist mentality?

The UK, Australia and Japan to an economic degree are the bedrock that allows US Foreign policy to be developed, it is therefore important to ensure our forces are equipped to the highest levels to ensure overwhelming victory against our common enemy’s.

It’s time to put up or find new friends!

Lastly in response to the concerns that the Russians or Chinese will find ways of stealing this technology if it were exported to allies, wake up call.… the Chinese monitor all email traffic of the US Government with the possible exception of the one remaining sipnet.

Chinese spies are more active in the USA than any other country in the world because, there is stuff to steal there. A sense of reality has to be viewed here, geographical location is not a barrier to spies.

I cannot see why close allies of the United States such as Australia would want a down graded aircraft. Australia has stood next the US in every conflict since world war 1. Talk is cheap to countries that have shed blood with american forces in various locations around the world. It is practical actions that count. Those assets that protect both nations when the chips are down. It should also be noted the number of american citizens that have been arrested for selling secrets to russia, China and Israel over the last few years as oppossed to the number of Australian (zero). Australia has operated some of the most sensitive military technology over the years it is not always made in america. Maybe Gen.Schwartz should re think his comments.

sounds like this thing inst rated as stealth anymore (you have to be in a roll facing longwave microwaves to stay stealty– member the Serbs brought down an f117 with a little help from our Russian friends) and they are going strictly off its role as a dog fighter against the su27 AND we would of course have to upgrade it’s radar or it’ll be toast another look at the f23 maybe???? stealth & dogfighter just dont seem to mix the g forces rips the stealthy honey combs apart and they are only safe in “super cruise mode” try try again bummer f’n bummer

–gun totin’ libertarian combat vet(socially liberal / fiscally conservative) but I do hate the religious nutz more than the flower waving acid dropping hippies any day

If Japan & Australia were to buy 50 F22s each that would be at least $20 Billion US being pumped in to the US economy for American jobs. It appears the decision to not export the F22 make in some ways be aimed at protecting the JSF numbers. The Aussies in particular have been at the side of and giving their lives with American forces in every conflict since WW2. It makes sense for them to now say why not look a bit closer at other manufacturers eg SU34 etc with their long range anti shipping missiles, which in may ways are far more suitable for their needs than JSF.

In order to sell the technology to our allies, we have to dumb-down the components of that technology, and that gets costly. Decreasing the effectivity of the F119 powerplant is an expensive proposition as well, as engine design is centered on producing the best possible powerplant. Dumbing it down has to reverse the initially optimized effort, and in many cases leads to redesign of critical components.

The F-22 took billions of dollars to develop and about 20 years to get a working system. It was designed to penetrate and defeat any air defense system or fighter then in development.
It makes sense that with these technologies (like the B-2 bomber) are extremely sensitive and should not be exported, that is why the F-35 is being developed for both our needs and export. The F-35 is not as stealthy or as capable as the F-22, which is why it will be a bomb truck. The F-22 will fly combat air patrol for the F-35’s.

1) There are no secrets-when we develop something new, all it does is validate the same effort in other countries, who will also do it.

Remember, the Soviets beat us to the H-bomb? Spunik?

Unfortuneately, when we see a good foreign product, we sort of ignore it and keep on with our own thing, which is really an expensive, short sighted thing to do.

2) Haven’t we been all thru this F22 thing? Didn’t Congrtess alresady say “no”, and the AF said “OK! We’ll buy them out of our current budget” that was already slotted for other things, that apparently weren’t any more important than the legal issues involved in getting money for thing and spending it on something else, andnow, we’re right back to thesame thing, again.

The air Forcehas about the most institutionalized thinking of all the DoD-I mean, we’d all like a new car every other tear, but most of us can’t aford it, and I doubt that the Russians can, either, just as much as Id doubtwe’d ever use F22’s in a convention war against Russia or China oranyothernuclear power-Nuclear Power? Get it? The End? Nobody wants that. That was the lesson of the Cold War. So,get off your AF bicycles and start jogging the counter insurgent track like everyone else.

“Schwartz then poured cold water on any hopes the Japanese and Australians might have of buying F-22s, saying some of the technologies in the plane are just too sensitive to export. However, he said “it was a possibility” that allies could pay for planes that were modified extensively enough to eliminate the export concerns. Given how expensive that would be, Schwartz has probably put the kibosh on export sales.”

I know this is the Chief of Staff of the Air Force but the Gen should be careful not to “over step” his boundaries. That call is not his to make, the last time a A.F. Gen did that he got fired for his efforts. Mabe he is trying to get fired, if I were the SECDEF I would oblige him, real quick.

In the cold war turbulence of this 21st century, the world looks on America as the only capitalist nation to maintain peace on the globe.
A few concerted effort by a few beurocrats to curb lawlessness with technologies of high tech definition must be supported so that less casualties of civilians and committed soldiers is minimised.
Gen.Schwartz is too short sighted and unfocussed on his role as a peace keeper. He should realign his duties as a soldier who swore an oath to defend his country and to maintain peace in the world. Should be ashamed of himself.

(any comments to this,please email to me. Delighted to share your critic.)

Mr.Isaac Benson Kolima
address :
Papua New Guinea

Even if Congress announces the USAF will get 60 more F-22s, this is not the end of the story. It will take approximately three years to build those planes. When tail number 247 rolls off the line sometime in 2012, we will have had another mid-term election and be heading into another Presidential election. Who knows where things will be at that point? My guess is that the Republicans will regain (slight) control of Congress, and it’s possible that the current SECDEF may be replaced sometime between now and then. The environment may be more favorable for adding another 20 or so here and there, until the USAF gets its 381 sometime around 2017 (exactly 20 years after the rollout of Raptor 01).

Am I grasping at straws? Probably. But everyone agrees the F-35 is not as capable as the F-22, either in speed, range, payload, or stealth. The biggest thing it has going for it is its multi-service appeal (USAF, USMC, USN) and its exportability. The F-22 was never intended to be a “silver bullet,” and as F-15s continue to have structural problems, you will see the cries grow louder for more F-22s.

And you’d think a site like Military​.com could get an up-to-date picture of the F-22. Stop using the YF-22 already!

Personally I think that having this would help in the event there is a war with either Iran or North Korea, to strike them or once we have them maybe it could curb these two countries and maybe help turn them around?! Israel asked for them and only received the F-35’s but if any nation needs them it’s Israel!!

Keep the Military Superiority in USA, in terms of technology and anything else.

LTC Mike has the answer!

There are no secrets!

So, acknowlege that, export to allies with all the trimmings, and realize that:

“war is an extension of politics by other means”

If the planes are not the best we can field for our pilots, maybe we should go pilot-less.

Who wants to place in harms way a replay of 50 torpedo planes not even getting one strike and ending up with one returning aircraft. The question is Are we purchasing the very best aircraft in the world or just in our world? let that be the deciding factor.

Dan 8:40PM has put it in a nut shell so to speak-but let us not forget when the program started…Hi to all class of 66…

It’s funny how the average joe still dont know even after all these YR’s… I dont think Schwarts even knows…but then again who knows!!

LTC Mike 1:55PM does have the RT. answer there is no secrets to hide…

Sorry about that LTC Mike to leave you so short
but had to answer phone call and hit submit on a accident… There is no secrets to hide… or is there some really small things that the Mil. keeps from us/them for the good of both of us (you&me)…or is there stuff so bizzer out there one cant belive is real. Time well tell us and only when the time is right; well they let us/them know. I cant belive it has anything to do with money.

It is well said by others that anything America has on the drawing boards, stimulates opponents to initiate counter-development, counter-measures. How many of the USSR’s aircraft, externally, look like copies of US or Western designs? Several, I can think of. The guts, the internals, seldom, match our end product. I haven’t heard that Australia has been penetrated by foreign intelligence but Japan is another matter. Soviet industrial spies penetrated Japanese license mfrs of US designs, both military and commercial. F-22 or any cutting edge design is hardly safe, indefinitely. We have been penetrated (industrial and commercial espionage). When today’s cutting edge is off the drawing boards we had better have the follow on-started. Only a fool rests on yesterday’s design (F-22’s design is now 15 years old). (or forget supremacy/dominance, later in this century).

aire force

The future of the US air force in any major conflict is likely to be very mediocre in the face of current and future challenges.(see “Will the US be annihilated in the next war”–1.html)
Refusing sale of the F22 to close allies is going to be a monumental strategic error.

The comments made by Schwartz are ridiculous.
Australia is perhaps our closest ally, they are the ONLY country in the world to have stood by us in every major conflict since WWI.
To make comments relating to security issues is simply condescending…

Looks like the primary consensus here is to sell the F22 to close allies like Australia and Japan. Frankly, the decision not to is irrational. Adversarial powers will see this as a sign of weakness. The Russians have no such qualms — they are developing their own version of the F22 and it will be on the market as per their other sophisticated SAM missile and radar technology.
Exporting the F22 would not only gain the US valuable export revenue; it would keep the production line open and save thousands of jobs.
Apart from such domestic considerations, a country like Australia has been a faithful ally through numerous conflicts. Australia shares many similar values and democratic and legal structures. Arming Australia with the best military technology (not some watered down version by the way) not only affirms the close friendship between our countries — it also provides a strong military backup in case of a real war scenario, taking some of the pressure off the US. (hypothetical case China attempts to retake Taiwan etc).
Informed commentators cite the relative lack of range of the F35 and its single engine configuration as a clear strategic disadvantage in its choice as a replacement for the F111. 50 x F22 Raptors would be an excellent choice for Australia given the geographical size and the rapid buildup of Russian Sukhoi aircraft going on in the region.

First of all WE CANNOT AND WILL NOT SELL THIS AIRCRAFT TO ANYBODY. Yea herb smith WAKE UP.…No 1 other country can ever be trusted EVERrrrrrrr.….

Learn about the world and its military’s.….We are 10 to 20 years ahead of every 1 with the f-22…This whole discus is why we created the f-35 joint operation’s aircraft..There should be no talk what so ever about selling the Raptor, that is unless you dont like your freedom!!!!,and if that is the case MOVE SOME WHERE ELSE YOU SNAKE!.

Clearly the Obama administration is so heavily invested in defeat that it has all but scrapped the F-22. This diservice to the Us defence force is inexcusable. The consequences to our allies, Japan, Israel, Australia and others who have and/or supported fought with us is disgraceful. That the only possible consideration is a watered down version is disgusting. Do we really want them to consider Russian equivalents…This myopic view can only lead to the further emboldening of the wests enemies and make them increasingly vulnerable. Economically too this is more than a little silly putting thousands out of work, loosing export revenue and all in one of the deepest recessions since the 1930’s. Absalotely “brilliant!!!”


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