Surface Ships on Cutting Block: Polmar

Surface Ships on Cutting Block: Polmar

The redoubtable Norm Polmar offers a grim analysis of the Navy’s prospects as we approach the end of one of the most exciting –and excruciating — budget debates in at least a decade. Polmar urges the Navy’s leadership to make some sound strategic decisions about just what they want to build to patrol the world’s blue waters. Translation: stop vacillating (DDG-1000 vs. DDG-51), pick your winners and tell the country what you really need.

The Obama administration, looking for potential budget cuts, may take aim at the trouble-plagued Navy surface ship programs. As well documented, the San Antonio (LPD 17) amphibious ships and littoral combat ships (LCS) are far behind schedule and over cost. Indeed, the San Antonio herself took almost three years from when the Navy placed her in commission until she was ready to undertake her first overseas deployment — probably a record for Navy surface ships.

Meanwhile, after some ten years and many millions of dollars in development, the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Gary Roughead has truncated the Zumwalt (DDG 1000) advanced destroyer program — and undoubtedly wishes to cancel even the three ships already funded by Congress. Rather, Roughead wants to restart construction of the Arleigh Burke (DDG 51) class destroyers — a design that dates to 1979. Significantly, the two previous CNOs both strongly supported the DDG 1000 while saying that the Navy did not need any DDG 51s beyond the 62 ships built and under construction.


Similarly, the Navy has periodically announced plans to cease further construction of LPD 17 amphibious ships, knowing that Congress would still fund the ships because of Marine Corps support for them.

These machinations have led Missouri Representative Ike Skelton, the Democratic chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, earlier this month to say that the Navy must make a final decision this year about how many and what kind of surface ships it wants to build. Skelton told the American Shipbuilding Association that he did not know yet what the administration’s Fiscal Year 2010 shipbuilding request would include, but that the Navy could not afford to wait longer before settling on a course for what warships it wants to build.

“The debate about the future surface Navy needs to end this year. A decision needs to be made. After a decision is made that both the Department [of the Navy] and the Congress can support, we need to fund the surface construction program at the level necessary to restore our fleet,” Skelton said. “Whether that number is 313 ships or 340 ships, we need to get there.”

Meanwhile, the carrier and submarine shipbuilding programs are relatively settled — and eating up large chunks of the relatively finite shipbuilding budget. With an estimated FY 2010 budget of $10 to $12 billion — at most — the Navy is now building two attack submarines (SSN) per year for a total cost of almost $5 billion in today’s dollars. The next nuclear-propelled aircraft carrier, the Gerald Ford (CVN 78), is expected by non-Navy sources to cost some $10 to $12 billion. Although the “flattop” is being funded over several years, such high-cost programs will leave minimal funding for surface combatants — cruisers, destroyers, and the littoral combat ships plus amphibious ships and fleet auxiliaries.

Today the Navy has some 280 ships in service against an oft-stated requirement of a minimum of 313 ships. To build up to 313 ships the Navy should be building some 10 to 12 ships per year — at an annual cost of more than $20 billion, clearly a “cost too far.”

Addressing the problem, Representative Skelton said, “We would like the Navy to do what the Navy keeps saying makes the most sense: build affordable ships which leverage on commonality with other ship programs, and build them in numbers that allow for economies of purchase and investment in infrastructure.”

U.S. sea power today is “on a bad glide slope,” he added.

The Obama administration is looking at a military establishment that is fighting difficult and, in realty, open-ended conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Although the president has said that he plans to withdraw all U.S. “combat troops” from Iraq in a little over a year, that will leave some 40,000 or (more likely) more “support and security” troops in country. Add in the U.S. training, advisory, and counter-insurgency operations in Africa and other areas, and the perceived “strategic” threats from China, North Korea, Iran, and Russia, conventional naval forces appear to have a very limited role in the future. (The more significant exception would be the planned ballistic missile defense ships — now designated CG(X) or, with nuclear propulsion, CG(X)N.)

But looking into the future, with the continued loss of overseas bases, naval ships take on increased significance. This was evident when, without nearby bases, aircraft carriers and amphibious ships were the means of providing tactical support for the initial operations in Afghanistan. Similarly, the inability to fly most combat sorties from Saudi bases in the spring of 2003 again saw the need for naval forces for the invasion of Iraq.

If the United States does have a future confrontation — not conflict — with China it will most likely be over resources in Africa and South America. Similarly, Russian support for Venezuela’s regime and interests in other areas for political and economic reasons add to the probability of crises in remote areas. And, it will be ships, carrying aircraft and embarking Marines and other troops, which will provide the U.S. president with political and military options in those areas.

The Navy’s leadership — military and civilian — must develop a reasonable and affordable program that will be saleable to Congress. As important, the program must be articulated properly so that all “players” understand the future importance of naval forces in this uncertain era.

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What of the LCS, that under armed, under manned, over priced, PUEBLO-incident-in-waiting?

Hmmm… Sounds just like the issues they are having with the Coast Guard’s BERTHOLF. Oh the irony of it.

sounds like it is time for a new Frigate…something cheap that can actually fight and go in harms way…something expendable like the Perry’s…and I served on the FFG 7 class great ships but they were expendable…

Instead of supercarriers and really expensive nuke attack boats, how about updating the design of the 27C Midway-class CVs, with two reactors instead of the Nimitz’s four; and laying keels for new (and updated) Balao/Gato fleet boats?

sailortom,

The LCS is supposed to replace the FFG-7’s. I agree the Perry’s were expendable. That is why they made the whole boat out of aluminum. Learned lessons the hard way with the Starke. Nothing like bulkheads and ladders melting under the heat. I don’t understand the reference to the DDG-51 dating back to 1979. The hull of that boat is made of steel because of lessons learned on the Starke as well as the Samuel B Roberts.

Scooter, so you want to go back to the old WWII boats? The Midway was nothing more than an Essex with an angled flight deck. And why are you mentioning diesel powered subs that did not have a teardrop hull? I guess you still want to keep the deck gun these boats had too.

DC2

OBama says one thing, his WH staff says another thing, the navy sec., say something and the congress has the final say. So who is really running the show? Then you also have the folks at the pent-i-gone, going HOG WILD, with all the hot air they put out. Is all this HOT AIR, to kepp our enemies guessing? If that is the case, it is doing a great job! It is also driving the cost factor of every piece of military hardware item OUT OF SIGHT! It is all a waste! Just money being spent to give people a feeling of power and authority for the chairs they sit in. When this mess, if it ever will get fixed, would give the U.S.Military more money to build everything!
It is all a power game for the humans who believe THEY are running the show. Forget the WE THE PEOPLE!

DC 2 I was on Sammy B when she hit the mine…I know with the Arleigh Burke the keel was laid at the time and there was quite a bit of reengineering that when on after us and the Stark…one of the problems I see with LCS is sea keeping ability and mission creep…FFG 7 started at 3800 ton displacement and ended up at 5000 tons for flight three (which we where) if I remember right…the other is self defense and NGFS…littoral waters small gun not such a good idea…and an point defense ASMD system…I would not want to trust my life so sea chicken and CIWS…did the Navy forget how to fight or something in the past 20 years…

I agree with sailortom. I also was on a frigate as a GSE Hawes FFG-51. I have been on the LCS when being built… then and now I would have felt safer on an FFG.

the Hawes was a good ship…I guess the biggest point is that the folks designing and ordering the ships don’t sail on them and take them into harms way…which in the USN is every day you are at sea…it’s time to take the folks from Navsea, Supship, and the various congressional committies and experts and have a little come to Jesus meeting with them about what the fleet needs and not what the desk jockeys think are good ideas

sailortom,

Really. Well you guys are lucky that boat didn’t sink. Thanks to that and the Stark, I fought fires instead of chasing turds. Those FFG’s are so small. I remember watching one play submarine crossing the Atlantic.

Shadow, the Hawes was homeported in Charleston when I was in I believe. Either that or I did a Med Cruise with her.

Isn’t the LCS less than 5,000 tons dispalcement? That thing seems way too small to me. And we never keep ships smaller than the FFGs for very long.

DC2

Well were will the money come from… Oh Let Me make a humble suggestion Dear Congress…how about not funding ACORN, spend a few more bucks on ships and not AIG or the ilk, how about ships that work and not Government run Healthcare.

Hey guys. My 2 cents if you don’t mind. Scooter, I understand about wanting smaller birdfarms, but you get the biggest bang for the buck, economy of size with the bigger carriers. How many do we need? 10, 12, 20?

Modern diesel-electric subs are a whole lot more capable today than even the BARBEL class like BONEFISH. This is something I think we should be looking into as a supplement to SSNs.

Cruisers and Destroyers are getting pretty much interchangable terms. The DDG-2000 is nearly as big and is as heavy as a BALTIMORE class CA and hugely expensive. I think we can do better with an evolved BURKE class DDG incorporating new technologies incrementally rather than lumping it all into one problem prone platform.

And stay away from “gold plating-gem encrusting” toys and whistles unless they are really needed. They add cost often needlessly.

Moratorium on building any new ships for 5 years. We need to go back to the drawing board and determine what we will need for 2025–2050. 60 months is not that long and can save a Large Amount of Dollars. No one can match our Navy now why do we think we have to do something ASAP.

Two probems for the future — guessing the threat and being able to build more.

With no major blue water threat the Navy is focusing more on the littorals. Presumably the air wing will neutralize any major threat, so the LCS will be able to do her job close to shore with minimal danger. And still be expendable.

The problem with closing the yards is that you lose expertise (and jobs, but that’s a different story). How long would it take to reopen a yard which had been shut down? So what do you build in the meantime? How about a low rate of production of cheaper ships — the LCS and DDG-51 class. Or design something even cheaper with a pretense of survivability and open ocean capability (did I hear FFG-7 class?).

Crunchy, the LCS is anything but cheap. In fact, the Navy had to “restructure” (translation: canceled 5 ships) due to cost growth. As for armament, no disrespect to the Military Sealift Command intended, but why not paint gold and blue stripes around the stack(s) of these things?

Aurora has a major point. And it goes right back to the reason the artical was written in the firt place.

The LCS was SUPPOSED to be cheap. Then the Navy decided that the LCS had to have the speed of a PT boat, the range of a cruiser and the ability to perform every mission the Navy might possibly want done in shallow water. It’s an insane list of contradictory requirements. When you ask for the Moon and all the stars you are going to get one heck a bill for delivery.

Things are not going to get better until our military starts setting realistic design parameters for the systems they want.

The LCS was a good idea ruined by bad project management. The ships might have been underarmed at present, but like the Spruances, they probably would have aged well as new modules were installed. The whole US naval shipbuilding industry needs to be restructured, but without work to do in the interim, the industry will fail. So lets keep the yards working with a few off-the-shelf projects like a flight of escorts based on the Aussie Hobart class or the new Korean design, and maybe a batch of corvettes, like the Sa’ar 5 or Visby, to free up larger ships from patrolling for pirates or drug smugglers.

Then, while the yards are busy with their projects, start designing the next generation of ships under the auspices of a public agency, instead of letting the contractors charge extra every time the Pentagon wants to fiddle with the details.

If the Air Force can constantly update the B-52 untill the year 2045.[a plane by then should be close to 75 or more years old].
then the Navy could do the same with it’s older DDG-51’s.
basicly,“if ain’t broke then don’t fix it”.
they could save billions of dollars by canceling programs that are over cost,years behind schedual,and so on.
remember when Pres.Regan took the Battleships out of mothblls and the Navy upgraded them?
the Navy can do the same with older destroyers and cruisers.

The LCS was a bad idea from the start. Our Navy is blue water through and through. This is simply because we don’t have any threats to our own brown water areas. With supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles coming of age, there will be no need to even build these boats for the “littorals”. It seems this boat is smaller than the FFG-7 and I will say this again, we don’t keep small boats around for any length of time because they are so restricted in their abilities. How bout those special ops corvettes we purchased? In Coast Guard duty right now (one rescued the missing boater off of Tampa). The Pegasus hydrofoils? Gone long ago. We aren’t even keeping the Perry or Spruance class ships any longer because they serve no real purpose. The Spruance was not well armed from the start and it never received all of the teeth it needed. It’s anti-air armament was friggin Sea Sparrows.

We need more Burkes. Those boats are the best we have ever made in all respects, especially the Flight III. Keep building them, the Virginia SSN’s, and upgrade the Nimitz as we should always have one in the shipyards being built.

The San Antonio’s seem to be too expensive to me. What happened to the Whibdey Island LSDs? We should also continue with the LHAs as a replacement for the Tarawas.

DC2

What is oboma going to do?????
This little money is nothing compared to what they are stealing from the tax payer.

What about re-use of our conventional Carriers?
The KITTYHAWK is still commissioned, even if it is on paper only, and the RANGER AND CONSTELLATION could be re-commissioned alot less expensive than building nuclear, at least for a few years. This could allow greater presence around the world.

CTR1 Bybee, those carriers would likely need a SLEP, or at least a major overhaul before they could be of any use. Second, where would the crews come from? Third, what about the air wings? I have to agree with DC2 Jennings on the DDG51s; they are a proven design, stick with it until OPVAV & NAVSEA get their acts together. The LCS needs to be deep sixed; too much for too little and way too much risk.

Why is it that Northrop Grumman can’t build a decent amphib? Does anyone think they’ll do better assembling a french tanker?

CTR 1: & DC 2: HTCM weighing in here: The “Hawk”, which I commissioned in 1961, is too tired. Her plant is shot, and her hull is deteriorating. Same for the other two ones in Bremerton, and elsewhere. Even though they all went through SLEP (I was there)including the forced curtailment of the JFK, the billets for engineering sailors is no more for conventional plants. She was (Kitty Hawk) the last in the Navy with a 1200 psi plant… Even though I love my ship it’s time for her to go into retirement, maybe in Wilmington, NC after the Navy strips her in a year or so right now she’s in Category “B” storage, and can activate in a few months, the Brass in DC will not expend any money on her at all, and I doubt if she’ll be DH’d either. Aurora says it right where will the crews come from ?? Same for airgroups, due to attrition in the ranks this cannot be done. DC 2: I agree the LCS’s are crap, and they should be redesigned to have enough firepower that a “FIG” has/had and keep one hull design. I agree the SPRUCANS were undergunned, but some of that was alleviated by VLS & Harpoon on some of them. The last of the breed DD 979 goes for SINKEX next month with the HST CVBG-no more of them. The aluminum superstructures were used to lower the metacentric weight/heighth of the ships, and don’t forget the DDG 2 & DDG 37 had that, too where the superstructure deteriorated at the bimetallic strip, and had to be cropped out all around it, and replaced every so often hte metal 6061 aluminum is resistant to salt water to a point just like aircraft aluminum is, and is hard to work with, but it did the job, better than 5052 which was used for bulkheads & etc. You know this.. I agree with all of you, that the DDG 51’s are the best since sliced bread having rode quite a few of them, and I hope CNO sees that they need to be continued, even if the money wasted on the “Zummy” ones cannot be recouped now, but the technology gleaned from thier design can be used in the newer 51’s, CGX.… I dunno if that would be effective, remember the Navy done away with the CGN’s, now it wants to maybe start them up again !!! True, there’s many Surface Nuke pukes in the carriers who can form a nucleus for the main spaces…Gary Roughead, has to really take a look at what’s going on, make a report to SECNAV (whoever that may be now that Don Winter God Bless him, is gone-probably some know nothing will be appointed instead of letting Mr. Penn run things for right now, and I hope it’s someone with military backround hopelly a skimmer driver) as you knowwhen the Democrats get in office the military suffers. I know that from serving over 50 years in shipbuilding & repair both military & civillian. The LPD program, suffers because there’s no talent anymore in the shipyards in the Gulf region because of the two hurricanes, andmost of the workers there are incompetent, and if I was there I’d fire most of them including supervisors on the spot, including some of the engineers who designed them. There are some recruiting companies trying to get talent to relocate, even paying them a fat bonus, but the art of shipbuilding in the US is dwindling because there’s no one hardly left to train apprentices that really knows the buisness. Plus if BIW or NGSS lays off people they’ll find other work, and never come back, so who loses ??? The Government does… The Government forced the closure of public shipyards in the 80’s (Thank You, Mr. Cheney !!!) and all that talent there is scattered to the four winds… So unless industry/govermnent wakes up there’ll be no more shipyards building anything… Tony: There are no ships in mothballs worthy of being taken out, and SLEP’d save for the 4 TICO cruisers,and the rest of the class is being upgraded now as we speak and the DDG 51’s of the Flight I variety are being constantly upgraded to match the Flight III so there is OM&R money available for those classes. The “FIG’s” are being phased out starting next year with the CLASSRON in Mayport, FL as to thier replacements who knows if the LCS’s are up to snuff, and if they are adequatly armed maybe they can be the new “FIG’s”.….

anyone here know what that Aussies are doing to there FFGs??? was on the Klackring FFG42 way back when, nice CIC but with a SM1 and a pee shooter sure didnt feel safe, The Aussies have slapped the SM2 on there FFGs and of course upgraded the radar/fire control ect. Sure looks like a healthy boat compared to the FFGs that we have now, and with that said, WE REMOVED THE SM1 mounts so shouldnt it be just a FF????? Put the SM2s on the remaining FFGs, and get them out there doing more the drug protrols.…..we have the Coast Guard for that

When I was Navy I served on DD’s and CL’s Naval Gunfire supreme. I don’t think sailors would like life on a Fletcher now. Crew showers were the after ammo handling room. After I switched to Army any shower would have looked good…

The Army is enhancing the 155 round to the point I believe it should become a joint munition.

The Fletchers were designed to be expendable My Dads was the only on in his squadron to survive Okinawa invasion. Thats eleven tin-cans with 300 sailors each most went to the bottom with their vessel.

The Navy needs the most survivable vessels to do the job, it needs to be fast lethal and invisible.

one last comment about all this…LCS is just not a proper designation for this ship…ships that start with an L in there designation belong in the Gator navy…nothing wrong with that mind you if you want to haul Marines around…but a fighting ship needs to have a real designation

Does anyone remember the LCS concept that made a splash back in 2003–2005? It was called the Stiletto, created by am architectural design firm MSHIPCO. I was present at the creation, assisting Chuck Robinson, an architectural design genius and President/CEO of MSHIPCO, and his naval architect, Bill Burns. We succeeded in persuading the Navy hierarchy (then known as the Office of Force Transformation) to further pursue the Stiletto’s possibilities for Navy’s shipbuilding range of capabilities. MSHIPCO was the first venture capitalist company who worked successfully in bringing fresh and financially accountable business practices with government processes to Admiral Cebrowski, then “Father of the Surface Navy”. It was easy to recognize that all services would have been able to modularize the Stiletto to individualized service requirements, an invaluable addition and component of any service long range shipbuilding/sea service plan. To date, I fail to see why there has been such reluctance to focus on such a winner of an idea, with proven sea trials over these past several years.…above and beyond all other proposals. Faster, cheaper, lighter, and more adaptable. Time Magazine’s Innovation of the Year in 2006! As a retired Naval Captain and strategic planner, I fail to grasp the difficulty in determining our own service mission requirements, and why this particular proposal has been shuttled by our naval establishment.

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