Comments on: ARH Redux; Kiowa Is It, for Now http://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/ Online Defense and Acquisition Journal Thu, 09 Feb 2012 13:50:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: CrewDwghttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-29590 CrewDwg Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:52:55 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-29590 If anyone with some "pull" is reading this, just get us a NEW good helicopter!! The mission is a must, the current aircraft did better then one could ever hope, its time it was retired. If anyone with some “pull” is reading this, just get us a NEW good helicopter!! The mission is a must, the current aircraft did better then one could ever hope, its time it was retired.

]]> By: Justfollowingalonghttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-26487 Justfollowingalong Thu, 17 Jun 2010 20:41:57 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-26487 The whole subject of government contracts with companies is interesting. It is a flawed system that has way to many loopholes and oppurtunities for out right theft. I've been following the OH-58 replacement for a little while and found that the only ARH proposal that made since was the upgrade program offered by AVX. It would completely revamp the helicopter changing all of characteristics while improving every aspect of the helicopter. With a proposed price tag of 1.5 mil a piece the fleet would be zero timed and capable of performing for at least two more decades all for what the big company lobbyist are willing to pay congress not to let it happen. If congress and the DOD leadership really wanted to stop the waste, there would be better laws in place to keep Generals that have influence over procurements from gaining employeement with any contractor after retirement. I mean truly what kind of expertise's does a general that worked procurement have in the design and development of equipment? Having said that part I doubt very much that AVX will be the ones reworking the OH-58D's because their proposal makes to much since. The whole subject of government contracts with companies is interesting. It is a flawed system that has way to many loopholes and oppurtunities for out right theft. I’ve been following the OH-58 replacement for a little while and found that the only ARH proposal that made since was the upgrade program offered by AVX. It would completely revamp the helicopter changing all of characteristics while improving every aspect of the helicopter. With a proposed price tag of 1.5 mil a piece the fleet would be zero timed and capable of performing for at least two more decades all for what the big company lobbyist are willing to pay congress not to let it happen. If congress and the DOD leadership really wanted to stop the waste, there would be better laws in place to keep Generals that have influence over procurements from gaining employeement with any contractor after retirement. I mean truly what kind of expertise’s does a general that worked procurement have in the design and development of equipment? Having said that part I doubt very much that AVX will be the ones reworking the OH-58D’s because their proposal makes to much since.

]]> By: Joehttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-15933 Joe Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:46:25 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-15933 Wow, How much you little you all know, first of all the ARH PM, kept adding systems and Bell wanting to make $$ never refused once. Also there were weight problems down to counting ouches. The engine was never the problem, it was the transmission. When the OH-58D received this transmission it was rated at 100%, the ARH was carrying the torque to 140% when that 140% was re-base lined to 100% the ARH was still over torquing basically carrying this OH-58D transmission to 150+ %. Also Bell canceled its commercial 417 program, which parts of the ARH were 417 parts and the production of the commercial off the shelf parts were now costing more because fewer were needed, also the Army had to buy the plans for these parts. SInce there were now military parts, no longer commercial raising the price of the ARH to the point of a Nunn-McCurdy breach at which point it was canceled. Plans to upgrade the transmission were already being planned and the first production model had not even been built. There was also one that crashed which didn't help. The Army along with Bells non existent commercial line both killed this program. Wow, How much you little you all know, first of all the ARH PM, kept adding systems and Bell wanting to make $$ never refused once. Also there were weight problems down to counting ouches. The engine was never the problem, it was the transmission. When the OH-58D received this transmission it was rated at 100%, the ARH was carrying the torque to 140% when that 140% was re-base lined to 100% the ARH was still over torquing basically carrying this OH-58D transmission to 150+ %. Also Bell canceled its commercial 417 program, which parts of the ARH were 417 parts and the production of the commercial off the shelf parts were now costing more because fewer were needed, also the Army had to buy the plans for these parts. SInce there were now military parts, no longer commercial raising the price of the ARH to the point of a Nunn-McCurdy breach at which point it was canceled. Plans to upgrade the transmission were already being planned and the first production model had not even been built. There was also one that crashed which didn’t help. The Army along with Bells non existent commercial line both killed this program.

]]> By: KW_pilothttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-8433 KW_pilot Fri, 22 May 2009 03:33:44 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-8433 Hello gents, I fly the OH-58D/I model and I am in the last unit in the Army that still has "I" model KWs. Our KWs have not been upgraded to the /R yet. We (as a unit) were supposed to be the first group to receive the new airframes. I have spoken to test pilots assigned at the testing facility for procurement of the ARH. These gentlemen explained to me how horribly underpowered the ARH was (even more so than the KW) due to its weak transmission. The test were conducted with FMC birds with no ammo loaded and still they were "very prone to over-torques". Furthermore, other reliable sources say that Gen Cody is directly responsible for killing the ARH when he requested it have the common architecture software and components so it could interface with F-22s and other new aircraft. This requirement was not in the list of "must-haves" when it was being designed and built under the reign of Gen. Shooemaker. Bell tried to respond as best they could as quickly as they could by hiring personnel, building a new assembly line and beginning tests. As you can see that one "little" request put the project over budget by two fold and cost the pilots of the OH-58D their deserved upgrade. The interim aircraft we are flying is literally on it's last leg, without getting into TTPs too much we do have certain conditions that we can not take off in and therefore cannot complete the mission. KWs are a laughing stock in Afghanistan, considering they can only do FOB security. I agree with most folks here when they say "how can this keep happening" who is asleep at the wheel? Yes the M3p was retrofitted to the KW as our new MG but, what is not said is if it has a jam or cannot recock then the electric motor will burn up. Guess how much a simple little recocking motor costs. 25,000$ Yeah, can you believe it, not even a circuit breaker to prevent this costly mistake and there is no indications that the weapon has a problem unless if stopped firing in the middle of an engagement. I could keep going on and on. If someone with some clout reads this I invite you to come see these aging beasts yourself. Hello gents, I fly the OH-58D/I model and I am in the last unit in the Army that still has “I” model KWs. Our KWs have not been upgraded to the /R yet. We (as a unit) were supposed to be the first group to receive the new airframes. I have spoken to test pilots assigned at the testing facility for procurement of the ARH. These gentlemen explained to me how horribly underpowered the ARH was (even more so than the KW) due to its weak transmission. The test were conducted with FMC birds with no ammo loaded and still they were “very prone to over-torques”. Furthermore, other reliable sources say that Gen Cody is directly responsible for killing the ARH when he requested it have the common architecture software and components so it could interface with F-22s and other new aircraft. This requirement was not in the list of “must-haves” when it was being designed and built under the reign of Gen. Shooemaker. Bell tried to respond as best they could as quickly as they could by hiring personnel, building a new assembly line and beginning tests. As you can see that one “little” request put the project over budget by two fold and cost the pilots of the OH-58D their deserved upgrade. The interim aircraft we are flying is literally on it’s last leg, without getting into TTPs too much we do have certain conditions that we can not take off in and therefore cannot complete the mission. KWs are a laughing stock in Afghanistan, considering they can only do FOB security. I agree with most folks here when they say “how can this keep happening” who is asleep at the wheel?
Yes the M3p was retrofitted to the KW as our new MG but, what is not said is if it has a jam or cannot recock then the electric motor will burn up. Guess how much a simple little recocking motor costs. 25,000$ Yeah, can you believe it, not even a circuit breaker to prevent this costly mistake and there is no indications that the weapon has a problem unless if stopped firing in the middle of an engagement. I could keep going on and on. If someone with some clout reads this I invite you to come see these aging beasts yourself.

]]> By: Chief Houstonhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6872 Chief Houston Sun, 05 Apr 2009 14:14:56 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6872 Sounds like we need a Chopper Olympics. Teams of top mechs and pilots building what they want with what they can get there hands on against the big defense contractors. Sounds like we need a Chopper Olympics. Teams of top mechs and pilots building what they want with what they can get there hands on against the big defense contractors.

]]> By: Answermanhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6822 Answerman Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:05:59 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6822 Thanks Bob. Found out they are replacing the XM 294(?)machinegun with used M3P 50 Cal's that are used on the AVENGER Air Defense Missile system. Thanks Bob. Found out they are replacing the XM 294(?)machinegun with used M3P 50 Cal’s that are used on the AVENGER Air Defense Missile system.

]]> By: bobhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6799 bob Fri, 03 Apr 2009 01:04:11 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6799 My guess would be avionics, and sensors...maybe overhaul of the heli so that its structurally sound... it is really old and worn... i mean not much more you can update right? My guess would be avionics, and sensors…maybe overhaul of the heli so that its structurally sound… it is really old and worn… i mean not much more you can update right?

]]> By: cvnhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6798 cvn Fri, 03 Apr 2009 00:45:10 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6798 the commanche would have been flying in force by now.... Sikorksy X2 is the next step the commanche would have been flying in force by now.… Sikorksy X2 is the next step

]]> By: Answermanhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6786 Answerman Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:14:48 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6786 Can anyone out there tell me what the so called up grade consist of? Can anyone out there tell me what the so called up grade consist of?

]]> By: Dave Tuckerhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6785 Dave Tucker Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:11:08 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6785 Just think what we could have done with the 8 billion that was wasted. How can you waste that much money and no one goes to jail. Hell I can remember young GI's loosing their army carreer over a jar of mayo that was sold on the local market. I too miss The AH-1S. Just think what we could have done with the 8 billion that was wasted. How can you waste that much money and no one goes to jail. Hell I can remember young GI’s loosing their army carreer over a jar of mayo that was sold on the local market. I too miss The AH-1S.

]]> By: KiWarriorhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6733 KiWarrior Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:20:17 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6733 How the Heck did Bell screw up this ARH deal. It was a refit of a commercial already designed system as opposed to the Sikorsky design-from-scratch Comanche. How the Heck did Bell screw up this ARH deal.
It was a refit of a commercial already designed system as opposed to the Sikorsky design-from-scratch Comanche.

]]> By: jimhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6731 jim Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:10:38 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6731 This is what happens when we waste soo much money in over priced over budgeted platforms.... we get stuck with absolutley nothing after wasting all that money... This is what happens when we waste soo much money in over priced over budgeted platforms.… we get stuck with absolutley nothing after wasting all that money…

]]> By: warriorhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6724 warrior Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:50:53 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6724 The KW's always were overweight, they are now worn the hell out (talk to any aviation mechanic who's been down range) and need replacement NOW. Their shortcomings have been evident to all who have worked with them. Wasting billions on another upgrade is yet another politically based gutless lack of decision by senior Army leadership. Get us Hughes MD530N's - their faster, carry more farther and do it with more stealth than anything else out there. The KW’s always were overweight, they are now worn the hell out (talk to any aviation mechanic who’s been down range) and need replacement NOW. Their shortcomings have been evident to all who have worked with them. Wasting billions on another upgrade is yet another politically based gutless lack of decision by senior Army leadership. Get us Hughes MD530N’s — their faster, carry more farther and do it with more stealth than anything else out there.

]]> By: NeonConVethttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6592 NeonConVet Wed, 01 Apr 2009 20:44:56 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6592 Look, the reality is we have a bunch of lawyers most of whom have only seen a shot fired in semi-anger on the TV Shows. Their emphasis is growing their voter base and getting re-elected. Once again the Warriors are an after-thought until the next 9-11 (or worse) strikes! The Army will be lucky to get eneough money to buy rifle ammo, much less for replacement helicopters, tanks, vehicles etc. Expect that the budget will also chop out more active duty units. Look, the reality is we have a bunch of lawyers most of whom have only seen a shot fired in semi-anger on the TV Shows. Their emphasis is growing their voter base and getting re-elected. Once again the Warriors are an after-thought until the next 9–11 (or worse) strikes! The Army will be lucky to get eneough money to buy rifle ammo, much less for replacement helicopters, tanks, vehicles etc. Expect that the budget will also chop out more active duty units.

]]> By: gunplthttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6591 gunplt Wed, 01 Apr 2009 20:41:19 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6591 They should have dumped the Kiowas and kept the snakes (AH1). Strip off the TOW missile system and keep the laser designator and use the laser guided Hydra 70 rockets. Great visibility out of the cockpit, a flex gun, faster, harder to shoot down, etc. Hell, with the MMS on you'd be very lucky to survive an autorotation in a PeeWee Warrior, especially at night. Unless something has changed they wouldn't even do autos at the school house (Ft Rucker) in those things. They should have dumped the Kiowas and kept the snakes (AH1). Strip off the TOW missile system and keep the laser designator and use the laser guided Hydra 70 rockets. Great visibility out of the cockpit, a flex gun, faster, harder to shoot down, etc. Hell, with the MMS on you’d be very lucky to survive an autorotation in a PeeWee Warrior, especially at night. Unless something has changed they wouldn’t even do autos at the school house (Ft Rucker) in those things.

]]> By: DensityDuckhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6571 DensityDuck Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:40:14 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6571 Recon: Blame the lawyers.No, seriously. When every contract award always gets protested every time, then contract awards become something to avoid.Of course, I expect that what's going to happen is that Boeing will build a completely new helo that looks sort of like the existing OH-58, and they'll call it the "OH-58E". Worked for the F-18, worked for the Tu-22, worked for any number of military programs in the past. Increment the version letter, call it an "upgrade", and you can do just about anything you like. Recon: Blame the lawyers.

No, seriously. When every contract award always gets protested every time, then contract awards become something to avoid.

Of course, I expect that what’s going to happen is that Boeing will build a completely new helo that looks sort of like the existing OH-58, and they’ll call it the “OH-58E”. Worked for the F-18, worked for the Tu-22, worked for any number of military programs in the past. Increment the version letter, call it an “upgrade”, and you can do just about anything you like.

]]> By: Bobhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6562 Bob Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:17:51 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6562 ^ I agree, ARH program looked like a good plan, seems that they are scrambling now to upgrade what they have (even taking the guard helicopters to get the numbers they want). ^ I agree, ARH program looked like a good plan, seems that they are scrambling now to upgrade what they have (even taking the guard helicopters to get the numbers they want).

]]> By: Recon-Teamhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6557 Recon-Team Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:56:09 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6557 Something is seriously wrong we can't get a relatively cheap replacement for the OH-58 like the ARH-70 was supposed to be. There was no excuse for screwing up that program like we did.Originally I was opposed to the cancellation of the RAH-66, but later I began to see the reasoning behind it and figured it was probably a good choice. Yet I don't know what to think now that we have managed to screw up the ARH program. Something is seriously wrong we can’t get a relatively cheap replacement for the OH-58 like the ARH-70 was supposed to be. There was no excuse for screwing up that program like we did.

Originally I was opposed to the cancellation of the RAH-66, but later I began to see the reasoning behind it and figured it was probably a good choice. Yet I don’t know what to think now that we have managed to screw up the ARH program.

]]> By: yasotayhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6549 yasotay Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:02:51 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6549 Most of the OH-58D, if not all of them started life as OH-58A that went to the factory to be rebuilt. If memory recalls, because it was to be an "interim for RAH-66, they took the oldest airframes to do the re-work, leaving the "newer" ones in the fleet to soldier on till Comanche, except for the ones changed into the Kiowa Warrior. Tailboom cracks and counterweights (just what an overweight helo needs)I guess will have to continue to do. No room in the back for anything but the giant weight of all the gear. But then they are only scout aircraft after all. I agree with Bob that super stealth and overly high tech is not needed for counter insurgency, but if we get ourselves into much more than that... well I am not sure the ol' Kiowa's are ready for that round. Lets hope we do not find out. Most of the OH-58D, if not all of them started life as OH-58A that went to the factory to be rebuilt. If memory recalls, because it was to be an “interim for RAH-66, they took the oldest airframes to do the re-work, leaving the “newer” ones in the fleet to soldier on till Comanche, except for the ones changed into the Kiowa Warrior. Tailboom cracks and counterweights (just what an overweight helo needs)I guess will have to continue to do. No room in the back for anything but the giant weight of all the gear. But then they are only scout aircraft after all. I agree with Bob that super stealth and overly high tech is not needed for counter insurgency, but if we get ourselves into much more than that… well I am not sure the ol’ Kiowa’s are ready for that round. Lets hope we do not find out.

]]> By: Bobhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/03/31/arh-redux-kiowa-is-it-for-now/#comment-6534 Bob Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:08:27 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=5351#comment-6534 As long as the airframes hold up... Good plan... when they start to fail you will have to look into buying maybe brand new ones...(not even sure what the expected lifetime for a oh-58 is?) Hopefully they have learned through the commanche... that super hightech/stealth isnt the way to go w/recon heli's, especially with the numbers they want to have! As long as the airframes hold up… Good plan… when they start to fail you will have to look into buying maybe brand new ones…(not even sure what the expected lifetime for a oh-58 is?) Hopefully they have learned through the commanche… that super hightech/stealth isnt the way to go w/recon heli’s, especially with the numbers they want to have!

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