Army to Keep FCS Vehicle Money: Gates

Army to Keep FCS Vehicle Money: Gates

Defense Secretary Robert Gates is doing the rounds at the services’ war colleges this week and today he spoke at the U.S. Army War College, at Carlisle Barracks, Pa. There, he explained his reasons for cancelling the vehicle part of the Army’s prized FCS modernization program – the vehicles were too lightly armored to survive in future wars. He also said that all of the money that would have gone to build the cancelled vehicles will be “protected” in the budget to fund an entirely new vehicle modernization program; that amounts to roughly $90 billion.

Gates said the Army will be in the lead in the “irregular and hybrid campaigns of the future” and so must have a new, modernized fleet of combat vehicle to replace legacy systems. He plans to re-launch the new vehicle program by 2011: “there will be substantial money in the FY10 budget to get started and to make sure this happens.” He told the service to re-evaluate vehicle requirements and technology in light of lessons learned from combat experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. Gates said both Army Chief Gen. George Casey and Army Secretary Peter Geren disagreed with his decision to cancel the FCS vehicles.

He criticized the Army leadership for sticking with the original FCS vehicle design which was intended to field a lightweight family of armored vehicles that could be rapidly flown to global hot spots. That was before insurgents in Iraq demonstrated the lethality of crudely constructed roadside bombs that shredded lightly armored vehicles. The proliferation of inexpensive anti-armor missiles of increased precision is also a troubling development.


“The premise behind the design of these vehicles was that lower weight, greater fuel efficiency, and, above all, near-total situational awareness, would compensate for less heavy armor – a premise that I believe was belied by the close-quarters combat, urban warfare, and increasingly lethal forms of ambush that we’ve seen in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and are likely to see elsewhere as other adversaries probe for and find ways to turn our strengths against us,” Gates said.

“It was either Secretary Geren or General Casey who pointed out within the last 18 months or so, “Gee, the infantry fighting vehicle has a flat bottom and is 18 inches off the ground” — reflecting no lessons learned,” he said. The Army then tried to fit a blast deflecting V-shaped hull onto the vehicles. “As they began working on the infantry fighting vehicle and looking at the lessons learned, in Iraq and Afghanistan, they began adding armor to the infantry fighting vehicle. And all of a sudden, it was looking like 34 tons, 36 tons, 38 tons on a 30-ton chassis. That seems to me to be a problem.”

Gates said parts of the FCS program, such as the Warfighter Information Network, have already demonstrated “adaptability” and “relevance” and will be fielded. He said he intends the QDR strategic review to examine the Army’s mix of heavy and light forces and determine whether shifts are needed. “This will be the first QDR able to fully incorporate the numerous lessons learned on the battlefield these last few years. Lessons about what mix of hybrid tactics future adversaries, both state and non-state actors, are likely to pursue.”

“We have to be prepared for the wars we are most likely to fight – not just the wars we’ve traditionally been best suited to fight, or threats we conjure up from potential adversaries who also have limited resources. And as I’ve said before, even when considering challenges from nation-states with modern militaries, the answer is not necessarily buying more technologically advanced versions of what we built – on land, sea, or in the air – to stop the Soviets during the Cold War.”

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Great! i guess back to the drawing board on the design (the most expensive part).… but hopefully someone can make a better platform…

Still on vacation and glad to see that manned ground vehicle money will be set aside, ala retained Comanche-money of a few years back…but then we still don’t have a new ARH do we…

But back on subject, the Army could consider 3 families of vehicles that include:

1) 40-ton medium tank and recovery vehicles

2) 32-ton (vs. prior 27-ton) infantry carrier vehicles, NLOS-Cannons, and C2 Vehicles exploiting substantial R&D already performed by FCS

3) 16-ton smaller Recon & Scout vehicles, evacuation/treatment vehicles, and mortar vehicles

This would facilitate:

1) Two 40-ton tanks per C-17 (40 + 40 = 80 tons)
2) Two of the 32-ton family of vehicles per C-17 plus one of the lighter, smaller vehicles (32-ton + 32-ton + 16-ton = 160 ton)
3) Five of the 16-ton family of vehicles (5 x 16 = 80 tons)

The last smaller tracked vehicle (M-113 size)could also become the common basis for a small fire team vehicle (half a squad) equipping either:
– one air-mechanized infantry battalion per FCS BCT
– one air-mechanized infantry company per FCS and heavy BCT combined arms battalion
– or an all new air-mechanized BCT.

Such smaller well-armored vehicles could also be task-organized or organic to air assault and light infantry BCTs to add armored firepower/protection against enemy armor and artillery. At 32,000 lbs, each vehicle would be reasonable enough in size for rotary wing (CH-53K size) and C-130J transport.

All vehicles would have permanent V-Hulls for IED protection. Although, I’m puzzled that the Army was already planning a FCS V-hull kit, yet seemingly got no credit for it while the EFV without any possibility for a V-hull and with more total vulnerable Marines on board gets to skate on by.

As for MRAPs, they would ideally fit in National Guard BCTs of all types because their height would facilitate travel over flooded roads and safeguard troops in the event of a nuclear terrorist incident. The elevated platform that would provide a better buffer from ground fall-out. Armored vehicles are some of the best for shielding from radiation, especially if sandbags are added on the floor.

You could also consider adding MRAPs to civil affairs and engineer/EOD units and perhaps new units created specifically for counterinsurgency. But MRAPs are no substitute for shorter, less rollover-prone, more maneuverable/sustainable/deployable, and less ATGM-targetable JLTV in most BCTs.

The above compromises in armored vehicle design would cause a minor change in the FCS BCT armored vehicle deployment from 108 C-17s (3 vehicles x 108 C-17s = 324 vehicles) to a new FCS BCT whose armored vehicles would be transported by 120 C-17s as outlined below:

1) 35 C-17 sorties carrying tanks and recovery vehicles (70 vehicles total)
2) 85 C-17 sorties carrying two 32-ton vehicles + one 16-ton vehicle (170 32-ton vehicles + 85 16-ton vehicles)

Another integrated option could include re-engined and strengthened C-17s to keep the Long Beach assembly line open perhaps allowing 32-ton vehicles to be increased in weight to 34–35 tons. This also would allow tanks to increase in size to 42–43 tons.

It would be prudent to retain the family of vehicles concept that has proven itself in optimizing R&D and production costs, and maintainability ala Stryker. I can see value in separating the vehicle producers from FCS because the LSI otherwise wants its share of the profits on $90 billion. But having two vehicle producers ala FCS BAE/General Dynamics does allows you to introduce a competitive aspect during production. I’m just not sure two competitors would save anything with 3 families of vehicles on 6 different production lines.

The Army should continue to approach future armored vehicle weight/space/power trade-off requirements as an integrated whole rather than a hodgepodge of separate vehicle R&D, separate sustainability/maintainability, and unsynchronized airlift/sealift requirements.

I am puzzled by entire emphasis on the ‘V’ hull for tracks in the first place.

Every tracked vehicle in our inventory has a flat hull. It may not be ideal when you encounter a mine, but at least you have a solid low resistance surface to direct the blast across the bottom of the vehicle and out the other side. It’s certainly not be mentioned as a glaring defect in the M1, M2 and M113 families. Yet it’s a program killer for the FCS vehicles.

Armored hummers on the other hand have an inverted ‘V’ bottom. The channel in the underside where the tunnel for the drive shaft runs acts as a blast trap and actually concentrates the force of an explosion against the floor of the vehicle — which greatly increases the chance of a floor breech. When the floor does breech the armor shell works to contain and amplify the blast. That design is the reason that an IED that does minor damage to an MRAP, striker or tracked kills everyone inside an armored hummer.

I guess that what I’m wondering is why are the FCS designs that actually provide better protection against mines than the vehicles we currently have are dead, but we still make armored hummers with no plans to stop?

Some good ideas there Cole. Just a couple changes I would make.

The NLOS-C needs to be on the larger 40 ton chassis (although with lower armor protection requirements it may weigh less). A modern 155mm SPH really does need to be a 52 cal ordanance.

Next would be to include optional uparmor kits. A 4 ton kit for the 16 ton chassis, 4 ton & 8 ton kits for the 32 ton chassis & a 8 ton kit for the 40 ton chassis.

Note my MAJOR issue with the FCS is that we don’t need 15 Brigades of them (or at least we don’t need them to be REPLACING “traditional” heavy Brigades).

In fact, in keeping with the modular theme, all “medium” & “heavy” units could eventually be ‘interchangable’ with all vehicles excluding the tanks being the same. You just ‘insert’ the appropriate tank (40 ton “medium” [with out without uparmor kits] or 60 ton “heavy”) based on the situation.

Gates is a wise man–and right in this case. Let us hope that the inept planners, budgetary dreamers, and Army careerists who believe they have an entitlement to money they can freely waste do not have a hand in the rethink. If the people aren’t changed, we will have the same waste and delays. The Warfighters suffer every time. Also, the usual contractors are elbowing each other as they run for the trough. These companies need to be kept from wasting our money and time, too. Because it costs lives.
Did someone say, This is why we’re here?

HoPefully the acquisition side of the Army will follow the guidance and decision made by the secretary and OFFICIALLY SUPPORTED by the President and terminate the vehicles and their hardware and software components on the LSI CONTRACT (save billions starting TODAY), and do an inventory of the vehicle mix used in the OIF and OEF invasions and substainments and see the mix of vehicles that Russia and Israel used in their last two skirmishes (MRAP and JVTV desugns came from other countries)to help determine what is needed for the future Army. ALSO.…GET RID OF THE FCS name and call the new efforts by a new title!!!

FCS should be replaced by a new Army Vehicle modernization program called FCS “Full Combat Spectrum Vehicle Program”. The new program should be a “motor pool” of available vehicles for the CINCs to chose from ASAP. Let the combatant commanders determine the needs. KEEP IT SIMPLE. When Pershing II was kicked off it had a one sentence requirement by Alexander Haig. “Increase the range to reach Moscow and DO IT BY XXX DATE” THAT PROGRAM WAS A HUGE SUCCESS. Keep the private contractor out of the government’s job of determining requirements, especially when a company does not make the product they are attempting to tell them how for 6 years to those who have. Do health care companies tell auto companies how to build a car, but today in the Army FCS program we have plane company (LSI) telling a tank company how to build tanks.

Mike,

The Army sets the requirements…the LSI executes them. The KPPs can only be changed by the CSA or maybe the TRADOC CG. ASAALT and the LSI and contractors have to meet those requirements. The role of the LSI is similar to a general contractor building a house — they supervise all the other folks working on it to make sure they build it to the architect’s plan. Bitching that is not the case doesn’t make it true.

The S. Africans have had pretty good success with thier armored vehicles. Why not take a good look? The $ Sec-Def saved will help the troops now, as well as the future. More UAV’s, overhead watching more troops will be a great advantage. I think Gates has been doing a pretty good job. He is not ALWAYS right, but he is moving in the right direction.

I think Cole has some good ideas. I don’t believe we can ever do w/out the “heavy” armor. The EFV does have a flat bottom, and that is troubling since one Marine I know was killed by an IED, he was riding in an AAV. That was a terrible loss. There must be alternatives. The EFV has costs millions and still there are doubts. Wat are the options?

I’ll keep this short. Lockheed, Boeing, and BAE
like to push stupid designs with millions behind them going to bribes. Instead of more thought going into the designs. Competition is nonexistent. They fix prices. Give kickbacks. They corrupt the whole process. Like AM General
trying to sue other contractors who were told to
make armor doors and kits for the Humvees. Even when we had a National crisis. Money was more important. Unbelievable but true! Shameful.

Does anyone else remember the “Armored Family of Vehicles”? The Crusader was the flagship medium variant of what was to be modular heavy, medium, and light vehicles for all the tactical roles. The program sucked money from other promising programs and diverted attention from the fact that everything the Army owned was worn and not being maintained. The Armor community saw the light and got their M1s, the Infantry saw the light and got their M2/M3s, however TACOM held on to the notion and today over half of an Armor or Mech BCT is in a M113 variant (by the way, with fewer Artillery tubes supporting them).

Want to know what the FCS vehicles look like? They look like Strykers because that is where the money has already gone.

Just askin’

Have you guys considered looking across the Atlantic for a new vehicle family? There are two fully developed medium weight tracked vehicle families, one of which already has an excellent combat record: The CV90 family and the ASCOD family. Both could easily be licenced and then adapted to the US Army’s needs and manufactured in the US (thus creating more jobs than FCS has done so far and probably ever will). There is also a wide range of fresh wheeled vehicles on stock, all of which are a hell of a lot better protected than the Stryker.

No offence, but what’s the use of re-inventing the wheel ONCE AGAIN? The Marines already use the Finnish Patria design for their LAV-25 successor. So could the Army.

Otherwise … hey, there’s always the Future Future Future Future Future Future Combat Systems solution, available in 2104 for only about 1 Trillion bucks.

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