Gates Challenges Marines’ on Amphib War

Gates Challenges Marines’ on Amphib War

Defense Secretary Robert Gates issued a direct challenge to the Marine Corps vision of amphibious warfare at the Naval War College today, saying the QDR strategic review will examine if the need to get large numbers of troops from ship to shore is “realistic” enough to warrant the Marine’s new and costly amphibious Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle.

“No doubt, it was a real strategic asset during the first Gulf War to have a flotilla of Marines waiting off Kuwait City – forcing Saddam’s army to keep one eye on the Saudi border, and one eye on the coast. But we have to take a hard look at where it would be necessary or sensible to launch another major amphibious action again. In the 21st century, how much amphibious capability do we need?”

Gates continued to drive home the rationale for his enormous budget changes during his tour of the service war colleges, and his continued dominance of the defense debate while Congress is away, stopping at the Naval War College in Newport, R.I.


As he has to Air Force and Army officers, he explained to Navy officers his rationale for the spending choices he announced two weeks ago on the now famous “Black Monday.”

Gate’s budget proposal was kindest to the Navy, particularly compared to the Air Force – F-22 production to end, and the Army – FCS vehicles cancelled. There were no huge surprises in terms of shipbuilding in Gates’ budget: he accelerated LCS production and an SSBN replacement, but slowed amphibious landing ship and sea basing programs.

Gates said the Navy’s battle fleet is far superior in numbers and quantity than that of any collection of enemies and showed that he’s a big fan of former CSBA analyst and now Navy undersecretary Bob Work. He quoted pretty much verbatim Work’s world battle fleet comparisons: “as much as the U.S. Navy has shrunk since the end of the Cold War, in terms of tonnage, its battle fleet, by one estimate, is still larger than the next 13 navies combined – and 11 of those 13 navies are U.S. allies or partners. In terms of capabilities, the over-match is even greater. No country in the rest of the world has anything close to the reach and firepower to match a carrier strike group. And the United States has and will maintain eleven until at least 2040.”

Gates said no potential adversary “intends to bankrupt themselves by challenging the U.S. to a shipbuilding competition akin to the Dreadnought arms race prior to World War I.” Adversaries will instead challenge U.S. naval power asymmetrically, developing ship-killing ballistic and long range cruise missiles, anti-satellite weapons, air defense and other anti-access weapons and stealthy submarines.

Hezbollah’s ability to hit and severely damage an Israeli corvette with a relatively inexpensive, Chinese built anti-ship cruise missile during the 2006 war has weighed mightily on the minds of naval strategists and Navy officers. Gates alluded to similar threats, saying: “The Royal Navy’s greatest defeat in World War II – the sinking of the capital ships H.M.S. Repulse and the brand new Prince of Wales by Japanese aircraft just days after Pearl Harbor – was due in part to a command with little appreciation for air power, and in particular the threat posed by a single, air-delivered torpedo.” He said the loss of an aircraft carrier or other multi-billion dollar capital ship would be a “national catastrophe.”

Gates repeated his desire for larger numbers of smaller ships such as the LCS for chasing pirates and other operations in offshore waters: “To carry out the missions we may face in the future – whether dealing with non-state actors at sea or near shore, or swarming speedboats – we will need numbers, speed, and ability to operate in shallow waters.”

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Question — Gates’ says capital ships are threatened so the US needs small, fast ships that can operate close to shore.

Like the Isreali corvette that was hit by a Hezbollah (Chinese built) missile? Am I missing something or did he just contradict his entire argument.

The Semper Fi crowd need beware. Mr. Gates says the AF doesn’t need to do air superiority and the Navy doesn’t need capital ships? If we don’t need an amphib capability, the next question this crowd will ask will be: do we need a Marine Corps?
Some of Mr. Gates assertions are just silly, as if promulgated by a fellow with no military experience. For example, swarming a US warship with small boats…I suppose this trite notion could work if the warship was operated by an incompetent commander and was not supported by his leadership…but I have always wondered how small boats would fare under attack from US joint capablility…the example of the Japanese sinking the HMS Repulse is a prime example of deployment of an unsupported weapons system…the British operation lacked proper air support and the result was failure. In simple words, no weapon system works if incompetently employed.

I wonder if our military leadership has lost it’s voice?
If we blindly follow Mr. Gates’ notion of defense, we could end up as a potent regional power.

Right on Mark:

“Some of Mr. Gates assertions are just silly, as if promulgated by a fellow with no military experience. ”

read obama.…

Mark, I’m with you there.

“But we have to take a hard look at where it would be necessary or sensible to launch another major amphibious action again. In the 21st century, how much amphibious capability do we need?”

Sounds a lot like ‘We no longer need a Marine Corps.’ If we dump the amphib ops capability, the USMC is left as basically a mini Army with some organic fixed-wing air assets. If this is the goal towards which he is working, then he is doing well. However, I can’t see this going over well with Congress, the military, or the citizenry in general.

As Obama finishes up another Apology Tour, the idea of ditching the Marines makes sense. Then all those poor innocent countries won’t have to fear the mean imperialist America barging in. Nothing promotes peace better than unilaterally disarming.

Let’s face it, for a doctrinaire lefty like Obama, the Marines are a useless waste of money. The only legitimate use of a Navy is for humanitarian relief anyway, so we can maybe keep a few hospital ships.

OORAH to Mark for being vigilant about the existential threat to the Marine Corps posed by mistaken, ideology-driven strategic thinkers/actors in our government.

Corps history buffs will recall that the Corps has been threatened in this manner time and again. What we need are men of courage and conviction like Commandant Archibald Henderson to remind people — in power and in the public — of why America will always need the Marines.

“But we have to take a hard look at where it would be necessary or sensible to launch another major amphibious action again. In the 21st century, how much amphibious capability do we need?”

DUH!!!

Can you say piracy?

Regional conflicts, the fact that the Marines are the only service charged with maintaining plans for the evacuation of US nationals, and nationals of other nations in times of crisis.

They do this, to be sure along side and with the support of the other services.

UN missions: Let’s go back to Blackhawk Down. Does anyone remember who was the secretary of defense back then? LES ASPEN. One of the most anti military members of Congress in 20th century history. Another “fellow with no military experience”.

When task force commanders asked for armor support, when us troops were committed he decided tanks and APC’s would be seen as too intimidating.

He also expected the Pakistani APC’s to do the job.

Remember, they took off at the first shots fired in anger, leaving the Rangers behind.

If US forces had just over the horizon amphib resources in the area, backed up with a carrier and it’s support, at the first call for help, we could have ended things right then and there.

NEVER deploy US troops anywhere, without the big stick within reach.

I do think we need more LCS capability. However, they do not transport well across the pond where they are needed. Marine assault capability is not just the use for a beach attack as Gates thinks.
Having a large group of well trained combat troops located hours away off shore is quite a deterrent to little rouge countries that want to be somebody.

Postscript: After a “descent interval” Les Aspen stepped down as SECDEF.

In a television documentary, a Canadian general who was a UN task force in Bosnia recounted how UN protocols limit the number of armored vehicles he was allowed to deploy in his peacekeeping mission.

Also how when, under fire he called UN HQ in New York, only to asked, “Nice to hear from you, and what do you do for us over there?”

He said he ignored the protocols and landed with his entire TO&E of armor. His reply to UN officials aghast at his mistake? “Oops!

We need amphib and gentlemen with military experience.

Just like we need flamethrowers, arctic warfare capability, skis on C-130’s and people who know how to deploy them.

Today, US troops no longer receive riot control training, like they did in the 60’s. After WWII, this was taught monthly to occupation troops.

The equipment and people to trained to use them MUST be on hand for the next conflict.

Gates is obviously out to destroy the United States Armed Forces. He has hit the Army, the Air Force, now the Navy and the Marines. The man is dangerous. Is he but a foil for the Anointed One?

Mark, the swarming small boat approach worked very well when Marine General Van Riper used in as “Red Team” commander (of Iran) in an exercise. He did a shocking amount of damage.

I don’t personally see how paying $600 million for a frigate (which is at the international top end of the scale) that has the armament of a Coast Guard patrol cutter, and no future armament flexibility, fixes this situation.

With respect to the EFV, the same flat hull that lets it plane quickly over water makes it a mine trap on land. Armament is light, armor options are limited.

Do we need forcible entry amphibious capability? I don’t know. Does the EFV’s design make too many fatal compromises to its role as an armored infantry fighting vehicle, and make it too expensive? ($10+ million each!) There’s a good argument to be had that it does, and it is, and that a better solution would be much less expensive armored vehicles, and modern hovercraft.

But that isn’t the public argument Gates is making here. You have to be a bit careful in his position, because picking the “known threat” and defending it is what got France the Maginot Line. On the other hand, his point about the services skimping on front line needs now is correct, and deserving of correction.

Everyone so far has missed the point of what the new SECDEF Gates is doing. He isn’t in power to debate US strategy, but to cut costs at any price (in terms of capability). The pentagon is the new cash cow for the sleazy bankers and other crooks that drove the econimy into disaster. All that SECDEF Gates is doing now is preparing all of the services for the budget cuts.

Who fears for the Marines future knows neither history nor Washington DC. Your comments and discussion are good and well taken. Go watch the tide come in and out for a while… Then you can appreciate what is going on. The Republicans had their turn now the Democrats are taking their shot. In the end, those among us who are gainfully employed will be paying more for less. You can blame the folks who screwed up the global finance system (capitalism taken to its most greedy end) or you can blame the legions who have never had a job and who do not want one because we afford them an apparently comfortable lifestyle (if it was so bad why would so many sit on their butts for generations?). Don’t forget, especially right now, the many folks who would work but cannot through no fault of their own. We are in a tight spot, no doubt. If you want it to change and/or keep it from happening again …teach values to young people. Help them understand what being accountable is really all about. Last but not least, vote incumbents out of office. They would have been fired at any workplace in the world. More often than not, their first thought is of themselves and re-election, then perhaps their constitutency and somewhere down the line, maybe the good old USA. Not too many values among them and damn little accountability. We can bitch about it all (which ain’t always bad or wasted time) or we can pitch in and try to make a difference. God Bless America.

The truth about warfare is that accurate predictions are in short supply. Better to cover all the bases in case a particular warfare specialty is required. This country can afford to meet every enemy with overwhelming force. Clearly, it cannot afford not to. The fear of our forces is the only pause that keeps the mindless guttertrash of this world at bay.
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. — Attributed to George Orwell
CAPT John S. Kistler, USN, Ret.

Joe and Tony are on point. The idea here as Capt. Kistler stated, is the basis of where the money should go. How effective is the distribution of funding to protect these,
“rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

We need the best bang for the buck and in short order. All the current battle lessons have to be considered with long standing standards learned with blood.

If it does not help us in our current conflicts then it needs to be reprioritized. It has taken too long to adjust to combat conditions in these
current conflicts.

We have got to be grab, go, and win!!

The horse has two ends the one that eats and Gates. He nor can anyone see into the future but take a look at whats being done today. The US gov. wants to take away verteans rights to own guns, they want every animal, fish, chickens, cows, horse’s etc: every animal in the US tagged so they can be followed by satellite, no animals that are not indiginous to the US, a national ID card for every American, that can be scanned with a hand scanner, all guns have to be registered and the US gov. has the right to enter your home w/out a search warrant to check on your weapons. Girls under 17 will have the right to take the day after pill. This govenment wants complete and overall control from cradle to grave. Now we have an ignorant SD who tries to think, but has forgotten how. We do have away to send a message, call your reprensitives, TEA parties etc:. The US gov. is afraid of its citizens and Armed Services and are doing every thing they can to take away our rights and way of life. When good men do nothing, they represent the bad, no action is action, no decision is a decision. Trying to get rid of the United States Marine is the only one of the many things this gov​.is doing to us. They are trying so many things at the same time it hard to follow, but it can be done.

God Bless the Fire Eaters
Semper Fi

“If only I could see in the dark?” A constant question by every soldier in every military from the earliest of ages. The “amphibious assault” by Gates (pun intended) is not the first time the USMC has had to fend for itself. President’s Truman and Eisenhower, to no avail, wished the Marine’s existence to go away in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s. Arguements about America no longer requiring this weapons system (and Service) were proven wide of the mark over the past 60 years. As Capt Kistler, USN, Ret, well stated, “Better to cover all the bases in case a particular warfare specialty is required”, is precisely why amphibious warfare exists–as an option to accommodate the need. More specifically, LtGen Victor Krulak, USMC, Ret (deceased) in his book, First to Fight, simply clarified that America doesn’t need the Marine Corps. There exists an adequate Air Force and Army, and the Marine Corps has no mystical competence or corner on the market in amphibious warfare or tactical air ops in support of infantry. BUT, America wants its Marine Corps–as Kistler quotes “We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm” and which speaks volumes about how America views its Marines, and which actually paraphrases Krulak’s summary. Why the U.S. needs a Marine Corps is simply because of what the grass roots of our Country believes we are and believes what we can do. How the Marine gets ashore (Osprey, helo, or AAV) requires a Marine solution [and keeps the “gutter trash” guessing, to quote Kistler.]

I am a former member of the 1st Air Cavalry Division in Vietnam and a person who probably knows more anti Marine Corps jokes than any other human. That being said I have to say that SECDEF Gates is WRONG. The United States needs a strong robust amphibious capability in the United States Navy and Marine Corps.

While I have some philosophical differences with the Marine Corps especially on the internal dimensions of the V22 Osprey I am by no means a fool. Nearly 75% of the Earth surface is water. The United Stated MUST have the Navy and Marine Corps ability to strike from the sea or it will become a second rate power if it survives at all.

The Marine Corps must not be cut back if anything it MUST be strengthened by at least one more Active and one more Reserve Division or at least two Reserve Divisions. I will guarantee that they will be needed in the 21st century. The Marine Corps must be a strong vibrant expeditionary force.

One of my biggest concerns here is that Gates is still fighting “the last war”. We seem to do that a lot.

We NEED the Marines. I find it odd that we are in the beginning stages of working out a proper response to the Somali Pirates, and one that includes in almost all scenarios the use of the… wait for it… the USMC.

Also of interest here is the reference to Chinese ordinance used by these “non state actors”. How does Gates expect to deal with the growing Chinese deepwater threat?

While we see the hatchet being used with all the budgets for all branches — the statement that “we no longer need a Marine Corps — is disinformation at best.

The current crowd up there on the “Hill” does not have the Military’s best interest at heart.

Especially, in not knowing how many troops we can agree on.

We now need ALL active duty, former and retired Marines to come together and support our Marine Corps.

Write to your congressman and hit them hard with phone calls too. Copy your local editors and TV stations.

A full court press is needed!!

Thank you
Happy Birthday Marines!
Gene Spanos
Sgt. 66/71

Gates says we don’t need an amphib capabiiity since we haven’t really used it since WWII. Well…we haven’t used nukes since WWII either…so his logic is we need no nuculear deterrent force. One Marine Brigade tied down 5 Iraqi Divisions in Gulf War I. The threat was enough. All across the world, our MEU’s, like our Navy carriers, pose a real problem for adversaries. The Brits did conduct an amphibiouis assault of the Falklands…remember? We need a force parked off a foreign shore ready to come ashore at a time and place of our choosing. That possibility alone sends strong messages to those ashore. While we must prepare for the future..we still have an planet that is 75% water. Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. Fire Gates!

Just remember General Omar Bradley who said, “WWII was the end of Amphibious warfare”. Then President Truman created a Police Force called, “Harry’s Police Force”. The Marine Corps 1st Marine Division Landed at Inchon, and the 1st Marine Brigade was in Pusan filling the gap for the Army. Draw Downs means doing more with less. If we get rid of the contractors, the Military can get back to work. In the mean time it’s doing things on the cheap. The Defense Department is always looking for a way to shut out the Marine Corps It’s an Army political thing. The Army has more Generals and more concerns on the past with the Marine Corps. As a logistic Chief in the Marine Corps I can recall all the junk we inherited from Army Surplus and had to revamp every thing we did as Marines.

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