Who Needs F-22 Requirements

Who Needs F-22 Requirements

UPDATED: With Sen. Chambliss Comments Accusing Gates of Failing to Develop Strategy And Making “One-Time” Budget Decisions 

The F-22 fight is in full swing, notwithstanding comments earlier this week from Lockheed Martin’s CFO that the company will not fight down to the wire for the weapon. Sens. Saxby Chambliss and James Inhofe signaled this week that they are almost certain to keep fighting for the plane.

“Just because you are the boss doesn’t always mean you are right, and it doesn’t always mean you will win,” the former commander of Air Force Material Command, Greg Martin, said Thursday in a clear sign of just how vigorous the fight over the F-22 may become. Martin spoke at an F-22 event hosted by the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Just who will win over the F-22 and what that will mean for the services and Congress is growing increasingly complex.

For example, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz said last week that the service’s requirement for 243 F-22s remained intact. If that’s the case, Gates’ decision to cap the F-22 buy raises basic questions about the role of the services in building budgets and making budget decisions.

An Air Force officer familiar with Schwartz’ thinking told me that the requirement remained but that Gates had made a resource decision and the service understood that. Now defense secretaries are the final decision makers at the Pentagon. No question. But Schwartz’s comments [first reported on Friday by Air Force Magazine] would seem to raise all sorts of questions about the sanctity or relevance or requirements. Are requirements nothing more than guidelines subject to the latest budgetary crisis? Are they largely irrelevant, except as a proof of concept exercise? 

Given the impressive amount of national treasure and brain power that goes into determining the requirements for major weapons systems, should they be overruled or ignored when money looks tight? And how much risk is the country accepting? That is not clear from Gates’ arguments yet.

Schwartz and Air Force Secretary Michael Donley wrote in an op-ed in the Washington Post that 243 Raptors would have been a “moderate-risk” inventory. The 381 F-22s, the former requirement, was a low-risk number. But Air Force Magazine reported that Schwartz said at a National Aeronautic Association’s luncheon that stopping production at 187 was made very simply because “more F-22s are unaffordable in the context of other things we must do.”

At the CSIS event, Grant questioned whether Gates had performed any analysis to craft the 187 number. “What was the analysis that led us to that number? When we look at it, I think we’ll find there wasn’t any,” Martin said.

Sen. Saxby Chambliss castigated Gates for lacking a strategic basis for his decisions on the F-22 and the Future Combat Vehicle. 

“Despite the secretary saying in his April 6 comments that he was not focusing on the budget, when you look at the decisions he made those decisions are purely budget-oriented choices,” Saxby said, adding that Gates made these choices without “a real strategy” and “no analysis” of the F-22 and its military impact.

Rebecca Grant, an analyst at the Lexington Institute, said Thursday that she would characterize 187 as a “high-risk” result. She argued, during the CSIS event, that the F-22 is needed principally because it is the premier weapon against the sophisticated S-300 ground-to-air missiles that the Russians have developed and are trying to sell.

This website uses IntenseDebate comments, but they are not currently loaded because either your browser doesn't support JavaScript, or they didn't load fast enough.

Join the Conversation

The closure of the F-22 assembly line has nothing to do with budgets or requirements in my opinion , it is all about Mr. Gates’s ego . When past AF officials stated that they were going to get more Raptors despite what Mr Gates said , he took it personally.

Here we go again. Another ego trip in the making. 1. Cancelling programs results in jobs lost. Correct me if I’m wrong, that is the problem with the country now? Too many unemployed people? 2. It looks like the current administration has taken the after World War I attitude that we have more than enough resources to take care of our enemies. And look what happened? We were behind and had to triple our efforts around the county to build back up and.… it might have prolonged the war because of it. Well with other countries gaining in technology, the two year luxury of builing back up isn’t there. It doesn’t take a “wizard” with a PHD to figure that out. 3. With our aging Air Force resources, just when is enough? We can modernize a Model T with all the fancy equipment and it will still be a Model T. Example: B-52, F-15, F16, C-5 program, etc. Yes it cost a lot of money to build a new planes, satellites, ships, etc. BUT… when you read the articles on the web on how much an other country or that country is modernizing their military, and we are not, I get concerned. When the Russians were “touring” around South America, our politians made remarks like “They would be amazed if the ships made it out of port!” Sorry folks, that only fuels the fire to prove one wrong. I don’t believe the Russian fleet or Air Force is that inept and if we are thinking like that, WE ARE IN TROUBLE!!

I am in favor of the F-22 and building more of them. However I can see some rational for reduced nubers during this peroid. Gates thinks the US has more then enough power to deal with present air threats, maybe hes right or wrong. The long term view out to the next 20 years or so as other nations like China/India become much larger peer competitors the US will require a modern powerful airforce in large enough numbers to counter these powers. Is the F-22 that plane, I dont think so. The F-22 will dominate the air now and for the next few decades but after the UCAVs will dominate into the medium and longer term. This is where I think gates talked about a new program for an affordable modern fighter. Gates is betting large numbers of the F-35 with the F-22 as the silver bullet will be enough for the US to counter all threats. Will 187 F-22 be enough to in a large scale war? If you believe the USAF the raptor can take on 30–1 in pure mathamatic statistics. I would still like to see around the 300 F-22’s mark. I think this would form a solid base for the US to control the skies. If the US loses air control to other nations it will limit the US ability to project power around the world and win any wars it may fight. 

I still find it hard to believe in a nearly $600 billion defence budget, $5 billion cannot be found to build 20 Raptors a year at $200 million each. Considering this plane will enable all other services to do there jobs without being attacked from the air by another AF. It seems like a small investment when looked at over the context of time and the long lasting strategic benifits it brings.

Mike R: The problem is that Gates isn’t saying “reduced numbers during this period”. Gates is saying “we will only ever, ever, EVER build 187 F-22, and we will NEVER EVER *EVER* build another one.”

I agree DensityDuck. Gates has some stupid grudge against the USAF and he will certainly try to force them to destroy all of the production tooling so they can never get another one. His damn personal vendetta is going to cost us down the road.

I can’t believe what this administration is attempting to do at a time of war. This administration is doing the very same thing that nearly crushed our military during the early 90’s. Every service took a hit reduction of which took nearly 10 years to recover. Hangs on folks..so instead of creating jobs…the current wave of policies are creating millions of jobless folks. Gates further wants all military personnel to pay higher fees for deductables in healthcare because he says we pay to little and its eating away at our national budget. What? I thought the Demogrates were attempting to make healthcare more affordable. There is way too much double talk.

we need this plane it is key to us air dominance. only a president as bad as obama would appoint a defence secretary with his head so far up his … that he can’t see what he is doing to our air force. this guy needs to pull his head out … and fix what he started.

I think that we need this fighter, I am comcerned that it may have espocomponets,chips that where built with the pourpose of degrading there function

A majority of citizens want the F22 in the hands of our USAF pilots to insure America
has air superiority. Development of this
superior aircraft, by Lockheed Martin, should
not be squandered by severe production cuts.
With taxpayers bailing out money markets and et al, why undermine our weapons producers? With
Russia’s ability to produce outstanding air–
craft, and proliferate them globally, the F22
should be funded, built and even improved.

This country needs jobs… since a nimble and inexpensive T-38 Talon can shoot down an F-22, the U.S. should build thousands of these T-38. That way we would need thousands will be needed build them and thousands of pilots will be need to fly them.

Gates needs his job, so he will agree with Obamam the Great every time.
He is a yes man !! Yes master Hussein..I will kill the F22.
I am convinced Obama is intent on destroying America from within.….….hell. he’s spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight legal action for him to reveal his birth papers.….…..now why would he do that ???

Lots and Lots of Migs,
Even though your comment was made tongue in cheek, there are some “military experts” out there that would buy a embellished version of your point. You and those people should get briefed of the results from the FWIC ME Phase flights when going up against Raptors…then again, that’s just the primier fighter avaition school house in the world…what would the FWIC crowd know that some “Beltway warrior” doesn’t know better??

guys, do you understand why the F-22 does NOT work in the war we are in now?!?! do we need air-to-air superiority? is the taliban flying high performance aircraft?! NO! they are not. they are on the ground with missiles and anti-aircraft guns. we need the air-to-ssurface capability of the F-35 which is MUCH better than the F-22s capability. furthermore, it has already become clear that the jobs that WOULD be lost by the poduction halt of the F-22 would be picked up by the new C-130J program (also made in the GA plant the F-22 is) as well as the C-5 Galaxy moderinzation program.…which will also be held at the same plant the F-22 is. Additionally, GUESS WHERE THE F-35 will be made?! You got it, THE SAME PLANT! 

From Lockheed Martin’s CFO: “Jobs is probably not going to be an issue,” Chambliss said.

JAQ — Obama had NOTHING to do with the F-22 cuts!!! It was Gates and the Joint Chiefs you moron! Obama was briefed on their decision at the end of the day and instead of micor-managing, he said I trust your decision. Stop trying to put this on Obama. You don’t have to support Obama to know this wasn’t his decision making.

Stephen — this is the same Defense Secretary for the past few years. I think I’ll trust Schwartz’s opinion over yours.

having said all this, i think Schwartz is right that we need to at least get to a low-risk number of F-22. if the F-22 is our air-to-air craft and the F-35 is the air-to-surface, sounds to me like we need a good mix of both.

The main point here should be that the F-35 is being procured because the requirements for the war we are in now require a better capability then the F-22 (built for Cold War air-to-air combat with USSR) currently provides. i think it is important that Congress changes Gates decision so that we get to the 300 F-22 mark. then we can cap it and continue with the F-35 and start developing a new fighter that will be, hopefully, even better. Additionally, Lockheed Martin has even come forward and said the jobs affected by this decision will not be lost because they now have 3 new contracts that will be performed at the same plant (F-35, C-130J, the C-5 Galaxy). I think there is a lot of over reacting going on. I think the additional funding to MQ-1, MQ-9, Global Hawk, etc are GREAT! that is what we need given the war we are in. More R&D into the next generation of the MQ UAV is great too. And then there is the hilarious program ISIS that is currently under development by DARPA and the USAF.

OK…Cold War fighter.…the war we are fighting today…enough. We are not procuring today for the fight in Afghanistan…we are procuring to deter or deal with a future conflict. The mighty Eagle is 60s/70s/80s tech…the F15 and the F16 are old airframes. There are foreign aircraft, Rafaeles, SU-27s, SU-30s, Eurofighters, etc that are the tech equal of the F16 and Eagle. So it’s not a “Cold War” issue..it’s the future. All that most of us are advocating is a 230+ F22 procurement and maybe even accompanied by a slight AF F35 reduction as a risk avoidance measure. The F22 is the air dominance fighter that is the keystone to military operations…we must keep a “trump” weapon system in numbers that guarantees air dominance. You say air dominance won’t be needed in the future because all wars will be irregular and conventional war is over…OK..show me your infalible crystal ball analysis and I will get on board. Over.

No one likes Gates, but the Air Force doesn’t seem to understand that they are not a one platform (f22) only force. Let’s look at a list of recent and ongoing Air Force failures:

UASs and ISAR were not being deployed in the numbers the other branches needed so Gates gave them a kick in the butt and made UASs a regular part of their force. The taker deal was flubbed as well so Gates had to clean up that mess too. Gates had to fire some people to get the Air Force to realize that nuclear is a serious responsibility. They let their entire fleet fall apart so that they could use that as leverage to get more F22s. ASA is in crisis also because they wanted more stealth fighters which they knew were not enough to mind the homeland. 

If you look at this in its totality, you realize the damage the F22 has done to the Air Force’s credibility and capacity for creative thought.

I think we pay to much for F22 we can update the F16 and F15 with the money we spend . now days its not the A/C its whats in in it that counts.

Bush had announced they planned to cancel the F-22 at 187. The F-35 is two decades newer in design and technology, but the salesmen say the F-22 is better and some fools accept that. Gates plans to boost F-35 funding.

The F-22A is an AIR DOMINANCE asset to be used against technologically advanced enemies, for which the Taliban are not. To state the F-22A is irrelevant in the current conflicts is a good assessment, very SHORT SIGHTED in a strategic sense as is what has been presented in the above article. The issue has progressed into the F-22A versus the capabilities of the F-35. The two aircraft were to complement each other, not designed for the same missions. To replace the F-22A’s with F-35’s in the air dominance role is likely to show the short comings of the F-35 in the first few engagements. The F-35 is a GROUND ATTACK aircraft that can perform basic fighter duties.
There are too few F-22A’s to make a credible deterrent since they can’t be everywhere at once. The obvious result of this decision is to change the requirements of the F-35 for supercruise and vectored thrust. Then they will cost almost as much as teh F-22A that was cancelled.

The F-22 is very expensive and a sophisticated weapon not needed in the foreseeable future to maintain air superiority. While it is a priemere fighter, we face only third or fourth rate enemies without sophisticated air power.

The only reason Saxby Chambliss is raising a fuss is because the F-22 means jobs in Marietta, Georgia. 

This is strictly a Republican pork project !

Okay! let’s get real abouth this F22. This is a Air Force esteem for the fighter pilots. They will need to retrain and lean how to fly the F35. This si the plan we all need to look at. All services will be using it so less cost for parts and upkeep. Sec of Air Forece need to stop crying.

I love the way everyone keeps acting as though the fact that we have air superiority right now means that we’ll always have it forever. The British Navy thought the same thing in 1939.

We already have stealth aircraft…who else has them? The question is whether you agree with the Air Force’s desire to stealth the entire fighter fleet in the numbers their asking for. 

Russia is having trouble gatting funds together to fund their fifth gen fighter. We have

The historical warnings about post-war demobilization are correct. The CSAF corrected his dumb OpEd last week — the AF still requires 243–ie 60 more. Gates did not even bother to listen to the senior uniform AF leader about our moderate risk-based, combat requirement. He canceled the briefing over 5 times! I voted for Pres O but this is sure as Hell not the way to fulfill his pledge to keep trust with those in uniform. Typical Gates hubris BS and the men and women of the future USAF will pay for it with their blood and many more of our a/c being shot down. 

Re the Jobs BS–This is not about Republican jobs vs Democrat jobs–we are all Americans. 25% of the F-22 jobs (typical aerospace program) are in Big D California. Does our Sen Feinstein or Sen Boxer care–SILENCE–Nope. This is about protecting American Air Dominacne against Peer enemies, current and for the next 30 years. Those are the wars that would cost us millions of lives and many Trillions of dollars. Who cares what Gates thinks? Are we betting our national security on a small-minded CIA boy-Nostradamus? Gates is totally myopic about the current wars.
Yet another Gates/ Young/ G.England LIE: F-35 is newer and better. Yes the F-35 is 15 yr newer tech–but its tech for flying STRIKE missions (IR, Laser, SA, bigger engine–but it ONLY HAS ONE!) F-35 is too slow to accelerate, flies medium altitude (too low), and does not carry enough air-to-air weapons so it does not qualify as an Air Superiority platform. Proof is the F-35 Op Reqmts Document (ORD) for those dorks writing on this forum about things you know nothing about: “The F-22 will provide air superiority for the F-35.”

The average cost of the last 3 Lots of F-22s cost $140 million each. That is less than $3 billion for 20 aircraft per year & $3 billion is 0.0965% of the $3.11 trillion FY2009 US Federal budget or 0.582% of the $515.4 billion FY2009 US base defense budget or a wapping 2.085% of the $143.9 billion FY2009 USAF budget. The $30 billion used to bail out Bear Stearns COULD have bought >200 more F-22s. IF we procured a significant number more they would (in constant dollars) cost LESS than that. Don’t fall for the BS that it is not affordable by ANY means.

IF the USAF got 381 F-22s, it would have enough for JUST 1 full squadron for each of its 10 AEFs plus training, maintenance & attrition reserves. It would ALSO have to by some miracle STILL keep 186 F-15Cs combat worthy BEYOND 2025 in order to fill in the remaining 1/2 squadron of air superiority fighters in each of its 10 AEFs (again plus training, maintenance & attrition reserves). With such a force there is a LOW RISK that the USAF will not be able to ensure air superiority.

IF the USAF got 243 F-22s (thats the 183 already funded + 60 more) it would have enough for JUST 1 full squadron for only 6 of its 10 AEFs or only ~15 in all of its 10 AEFs (again plus training, maintenance & attrition reserves). It would ALSO have to by some miracle STILL keep even MORE than the 186 F-15Cs combat worthy BEYOND 2025 (which because of fewer F-22s would fly more ours each & every year). With such a force there is a MODERATE RISK that the USAF will not be able to ensure air superiority.

IF the USAF got just the “current” 187 F-22s, well you SHOULD be able to get the point of how impossible that makes the USAF’s job of keeping air superiority would be. With such a force there is a HIGH RISK that the USAF will not be able to ensure air superiority.

Having 1.5 squadrons (of which the USAF says its needs at least 1.0 to be F-22s) of air superiority fighters in each of the 10 AEFs has NOTHING to do with fighting Russia or China or any other single threat but rather the USAF’s ability to maintain air superiority vs a multitude of possible threats.

OK — I guess we have to break things down to the Barney level for you chaps.

John first…True. The AF is not a one platform service… But you better have a weapon system that you can count on to achieve air dominance (and it ain’t the F35 or the F/A-18)…if you lose the air fight, most of the other US platforms..C17s, Helos, C130s, Army guys in tanks, Marines in humvees, Sailors on frigates, AF UAVs, infantry in route step formation and your O’Club are gonna get swacked by the other guy’s air power. So, the first duty of an airman is to create the conditions for success for the Joint Force, otherwise, the end game will be ugly. I would respond to the rest of John’s rant but it was too incoherent.

Next: MannyLeon50whatever. Update the F15/16 to meet the challenges of the next two decades…and that would be cheaper than buying the F22. Simple answer: not technically or fiscally possible…your assertion is unsupported with facts.

Jerry…asserts that the F35 is superior to the F22 in the air dominance mission…and the AF fighter pilots (who just happen to have been doing this flying fighters thing for a living for a few decades) are fools because they “bought” some sales pitch. Tell you what Jerry, go to the Nellis O’Club bar on a Friday night, round up a few of those “fools that bought the sales pitch” and lecture then on their military shortcomings…BTW, how many fighter hours do you have Jerry??

Tony seems to get it.

Helez…F22 GOP pork? the foreseeable future? The F22 was born in the AF by AF fighter pilots who are not especially concerned with the GOP or employment in Georgia or Kalifornia or even New Jersey. Don’t need a new fighter for the foreseeable future?? How long is this future Helz? When the US does need an air dominance fighter, what does the AF do? ask the other guy for a time out for a few years so that we can rekindle the capability?? Got any idea how long it takes to create a world beating capability?? Today“s fighters are high tech marvels…we cannot just “spit” a world beating fighter out overnight…sorry, that’s the price.

Peter2304u67: good one…welcome back from LEO

D-Duck…SHACK

John…are we talking that same subject or were you flying Peter009ur0429tu’s wing out in LEO??

Dude…You must be the flight lead..Right on…be careful confusing this crowd with facts and reasoned discourse.

Out.

I agree John. Without air superiority all else fails. And the F-35 was not designed as a primary air to air fighter as was the F-22. The F-22 is the very tip of the spear. If the tip is dull then the spear does not penetrate. Then it is just a club.

And folks, this is not 1935 where you can turn out a top of the line fighter in 3 months, or even 3 years.

Sorry, I meant Mark.

Love how the F22 mafia chaps come talking down to people spouting listing Air Force numbers that make no sense when you look at the entireity of the Air Force’s other responsibilities…Aries Blog made note of it in a recent podcast.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a7f38fc8c-0b8b-4a13-ac54-cef80b505112&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

what would have happened thirty years ago if the us only bought 186 f-15s ‚I don’t think the last few wars (91 ds1, 99, 2003) would have gone so well. The F15 was very expensive for it’s time. Everything I have read about the F-35 is that they are going to be just expensive as the raptor. We need the raptors to replace the F-15c and the F-35 to replace the Strikers(F-16,F-18,A-10,AV8B) 186 Raptors is just not enough to get the job done ! in the future threat environent using the F-35 for air-to-air would be like asking the A-10 to dog fight in gulf war 1.

The F-35 can only turn as good as our legacy fighters (F-15,F-16,F-18) so if it can’t out turn the SU-30MKI ‚and Mig-35 plus the fact that it does not have thrust vectoring , super cruise , or all aspect stealth how can this jet cover it’s air to air duties Mr. gates is going to ask it to perform ( hopefully he will not be the sec. of def. when the sh** hits the fan in a future conflict) plus the fact that the Russians said that they will field a 5th gen fighter by 2012 means that we are going to have to have more raptors.

Guys,

Please get real. Of course Lockheed Martin will not oppose.

The Raptor is built for absolute control over the skies. This is needed in US airspace. Elsewhere, we fight irregular or assymetrical wars. In these theaters, we do not need air superiority fighters because control over the skies is hardly challenged. Hence we need Raptors. The number of Raptors needed is calculated by taking these factors into consideration: the probability of invaders, the number of probable invaders, the capabilities of probable invaders, the outflow of Eagles and Vipers from the service, the inflow of F-35s in the service, and the inflow of unmanned air-to-air combat systems. Special attention to the last point. Anyone familiar with the X-47 Pegasus from NorthropGrumman? Or the X-45 from Boeing? And who knows what the Skunk Works holds. Given the timeline we’re on, the UCAV will enter service before the Raptor has its first mid-life update. That is about the same time the Eagle will leave the service.

To make a historical comparison. The Hawker Sea Fury was a formidable fighter when it arrived in 1946. But never purchased in large numbers because the age of the jet fighter had begun. The Sea Fury had a 2,480hp piston engine. The aircraft reached 460mph! But all Sea Fury’s in the British inventory were only acquired to augment the slow and uncertain inflow of the first generation jet fighters, like the Gloster Meteor.

So, the Raptor has come on ‘the wrong’ moment in time. The new generation of combat aircraft already flies. Like the late 1940s, the performance of this fifth generation aircraft only exceeds the fourth generation on a few points. That leads us to question the performance of the Raptor. Of course this marvel of engineering has superb characteristics. But it only has an edge on some points, and only with a few percent. In practice, the Raptor may not be that far ahead as previously hoped and believed.

On the Raptor’s performance then. Although it will never be admitted by the department and the service, the F-22 is not a superior platform anymore. It still was superior when it was conceived in the late 1980s, and when ATF was chosen in 1991 it still was. Now its 2009,a dn the world has developed with the Raptor.

The USAF has evaluated the Raptor against British Typhoons, and it has become clear that the Raptor hardly has an edge over this older system. Since Raptor’s conception, the world has improved its radar systems, its guided weapons, its electronic sensors. The Typhoon showed to be unbeatable in the VR arena (close combat), and its performance in the BVR arena was surprisingly close to the F-22. The Typhoon could ‘see’ the Raptor, and its Meteor missile scared the hell out of the USAF.

British self esteem grew after these evaluations. The opposite can be said of the US. The British stuck to their primary weapons system, and with a reason.

Slowly more becomes known on this. Last week there was this movie where a T-38 Talon beat the F-22 in a dogfight! Yes, lets buy hundreds of these great Raptors. Guys, imagine the Talon. Its maiden flight was in 1959, when Eisenhower was still president. The F-5 was developed out of it. In the 1960s.
Oh well, perhaps the Raptor’s driver wasn’t paying attention… Which is regular in training missions with a 200 million bucks airplane…

And what is more, in today’s assymetrical wars, the Raptor is a useless piece of superior engineering and creativity. A USAF chief last week called for the purchase of a ‘light strike platform’, to be used in ‘the irregular war’. The proposed airframe: the propellor driven Hawker Beechcraft T-6A Texan. A derivative from the Swiss Pilatus PC-9, which by the way flew in 1984.

Let’s also not compare with the political and technological context of the Eagle’s and Viper’s heydays. Those days are gone. The US has lost all wars were the adversary was supported by the evil empire, the Soviet Union or China. Think of Korea and Vietnam. And so, the US will lose all future wars where the enemy is directly supported by Russia or China. So smaller, differently organized enemies will face the anger of the US. From time to time, every now and then. A ‘light strike platform’ is needed, the USAF said last week.

From a technological point of view, it must be said that the Raptor has lost its predominant place. It is beaten on agility and manoeuvrability by the Su-27 Flanker and its derivatives, most notably the Su-30.

In the US we believe that the Raptor is the ultimate air-to-air weapon available. But, we are only made to believe by our patriottic friends in Washington. It is the marketing of our state towards the population and the world. Just believe we’re the best. And then, in our own eyes, we are the best! In the meantime Typhoons, Sukhoi’s and Chinese stuff with complicated names already equals our Raptor. So, let us move on, cancel the F-22 programme and invest in the future, UCAVs.

Lockheed Martin will not oppose Gates’ decision. Of course they will not oppose. They are extremely happy that the F-22 programme lasted so long. LM has a lagging position on UCAVs, compared to Boeing and NorthropGrumman. Therefore they´re happy that it lasted so long. They´re also happy that they can continue with the F-35, and stay in business. And by the way, LM needs all its resources, all its engineering marvel and creativity, to make the F-35 as good as it should be. Guys, it’s ‘old’ technology pushed to its limits! It’s the Sea Fury of the 21st century…

Thanks Mr Gates!

Sad — your so full of crap it’s coming out of you mouth. show me anywhere where it say that the typhoon is close to the raptor , I read an article where ( at red flag ) a Brit driver was so pissed off because what ever he did he went down in flames he even said that his system would not lock on even when he was in VR. the other thing is that if the Brit.s & company had a clue of stealth tech. ( at the time when it was being designed )the typhoon would look a he’ll of a lot different than it does now. as far as the su30Mki out performing the raptor it ‘s not true at all . did u see the Utube video where An AF pilot was bragging how he and other raptors flamed all the Indian Su30MKI , in mock dogfights at red flag .

There were so many extenuating circumstances in that Red Flag exercise as to make it almost devoid of meaning.
“Are Indian Fighter Pilots better than US Fighter Pilots?“
http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/139.aspx

You either accept the Air Force’s lopsided Raptor kill ratios or you don’t.

That Cope India 2004 exercise is pretty much invalidated.

1) The F-15’s that were deployed there were equipped with the semi-active AIM-7 Sparrow missiles, and not the fire-and-forget AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles. The AIM-7 is not suited in the one-versus-many scenarios that the F-15’s faced, whereas the AIM-120 was. The the IAF only needed one or two fighters to tie down each F-15, as each F-15 could only guide one AIM-7 at a time and then engage the next target. With their superior numbers, the IAF could get kills on the F-15 with even MiG-21’s. Had the F-15’s been sent with AIM-120’s with a typical loadout of 2 AIM-9’s and 6 AIM-120’s… a four-ship formation of F-15’s could fire off an AIM-120 at a formation of 24 IAF aircraft, turn tail and use their power to speed out of the combat area to rearm while the enemy aircraft are taking evasive action against the incoming AIM-120’s.

2) The E-3 Sentry was not an exclusive USAF asset at that exercise and was a shared asset between both the USAF and the IAF, thus giving the IAF an extra capability that they didn’t have at the time and degrading the USAF’s AWACS capability at the same time. the Cope India exercise had also served to train the IAF pilots to operate with AWACS capability.

3) The F-15’s sent weren’t equipped with the high-off boresight (HOBS) capability of the JHMCS/AIM-9X combination, giving up an important capability in the visual range arena. This can make up for a deficiency in maneuvering against their more agile rivals that do lack HOBS capability.

4) They also lacked AESA radars, which is soon to be the standard across the tactical fighter fleet in the USAF inventory. At the time, the USAF was the sole operator of AESA-equipped fighter aircraft, and is still one of the few operationally-capable. Besides highly refined and powerful tracking qualities, they also possess electronic warfare potential… that is, they could jam enemy radars while still being able to track and lock on to enemy aircraft at the same time. Newer AESA packages will include EW capabilities, (such as the soon to be introduced APG-63(V)3 for the F-15) and some will even include the capability to burn the electronic seekers of enemy missile’s in flight. Hence why the AESA-equipped F-15’s have the added mission of counter-tactical missiles. The F-22 has already demonstrated the capability to burn out the seekers of incoming missiles in flight. It’s a miniaturized cousin of the HPM (High Powered Microwave) system being developed for ground-based anti-missile defense.

So to boil it down, the F-15’s sent to represent the USAF had both hands and feet tied behind their backs.

All of you people, who keep saying the F-22 “was built for cold war problems, and can’t help us today,” have no clue! The cold war is something, for which you always need to be ready. We aren’t the only military in the world. We aren’t the only Air Force in the world. No one should assume all wars will be fought against insurgence and terrorists. If you believe that, why don’t we just invite China to come take over now?! Too many people look at today and extrapolate that into what will be tomorrow. Stop and look! The only country which does that, follows the France outlook, of always being at least one war behind.

“..the F-22 is needed principally because it is the premier weapon against the sophisticated S-300 ground-to-air missiles that the Russians have developed and are trying to sell.”

This is exactly why obama Wants to Stop the F-22 production. He sees the USA as the problem. Eliminate the capability to operate in America’s interests– an obama eliminates the problem… us.

@ BillR & Ben,

I am sorry for you, sad BillR, the administration faced the facts and took action, the USAF hardly opposes this and LockheedMartin agrees to it. Is more circumstantial evidence needed? Of course the Pentagon is not placing videos on Youtube with details on the Raptor’s shortcomings. You really expect so?

I fully agree with the vision that the Raptor is a superior platform. At this moment. Luckily the government is looking ahead and placing its bets on future tech like UCAV’s. Even if a new Cold War broke out, this new tech gives the US the edge. Chinese, Russians, Indians, are by far not as experienced with unmanned combat technology. So, skip the Raptor after 186 machines and make some stuff that really gives us the edge.

And Ben, something on the Cold War. That’s history. And the Chinese are not coming to take over the US. The US is their lifeline. They have no income without the US economy as a consumer. Now with the current econ crisis, the Chinese economy starts freezing. They will not attack. Never bite the hand that feeds you. The Chinese aren’t stupid! It’s better to divide and rule, than to quarrel on silly issues. And yes there will be some political issues, but hey, there will always be.

The Chinese, by the way, will win easier on economic and political grounds from the US than on military grounds. We will nuke every invader if needed. That’s enough to scare the hell out of them. They know.

Guys, there’s a difference between they way it is and they way you would like it to be. Don’t mix these up, that’s really sad.

Seems that it would be more sensible to take out S-300 batteries with stealth UAVs instead of risking comparativley pricey jets and expensive pilot’s lives.

So what if the F-22 never fired a shot in the war on terror. Spent a few yrs. in the SAC underground, and as far as I remember the B-52 never nuked anyone, but most agree, it did it’s job. The next war we fight will most likely be the one we’re not prepared for. Less than 200 modern air dominance fighters doesn’t seem very prepared to me.

You bet the AF brass agreed with Mr. Gates ‚look at what happened to the last AF folks who didn’t . ( my way or the high way ) That does not make him right ! Mr . Gates woulg not let the raptor deploy to Iraq , he critized a lot of these ” cold war weapon systems , but they worked very well in every conflict we have been in since the Vietnam war. I would hate to think what would have happened if we had only purchased 186 F-15s thirty years ago. then to address all this hoop-la about engagements in training whether it is F-22 on Su30mki or any of the red on blue mock engagements , these are mostly used to train new pilots how to best utilize the weapon systems to the best of their capabilities there are going to mistakes made on both sidesif they were not challenging they would not be getting the most out of the training.
As for the # 381 raptors needed , people have stated was somehow pulled out of hat or something, That number was the number of Raptors that an independent study recommended that was the min. requirement based on future threats that we may or may not face. the raptor is the platform best equipped to take out high threat systems such as the so called double digit SAMS, cruise misiles ‚and any enemy fighters. It just seems as though in Mr . Gates crystal ball , there are only instigents and terrorists. In order to faces all theats we must not focus only on low intensity conflicts such as Iraq and Afganistan. with the F-22 ‘s supercurise , thrust vectoring , avionics , and all aspect stealth in can survive in threat enviroments that even the F-35 could not. Maybe Mr. Gates would rather send in a special forces unit to take out a SAM system.

correction– instigents = insurgents ( damn iPod likes to correct me), in the above blog

As an older retired AF member, I can remember President Obama’s mentor. President Carter, whom historians have dubbed the worst President. He lacked backbone and some said brains. First thing he did was cancel the B-1 Program and axe the DoD budget. It took President Regan many years to get us back into the drivers seat on Air Power. The diaster of a Iranian rescue attempt that killed many GI’s in the desert was an example of axed budget and trying to make do with less.
President Obama has no backbone and operates on a “read teh polls” policy. That is make a statement and see how polls respond, then make another decision if necessary to change policy. He has sourronded himself with a host of questionable capability people with a far left approach. I believe gis policy is kill babies, not Commies.

Here is an excellent panel discussion about the F-22 procurement process, and how it lead to an inferior piece of equipment:

http://images.military.com/Audio/FTED29.mp3

I cant belive this guy. First, we lose 520 out of 700 F-15s due to structural flaws, which made the demand for F-22s to skyrocket. Not to mention the Russian SU-47 can out fly and out gun everything but the F-22. I think Gates just sealed our fate.

The thing is he F-22 is practicly our super plane no other in the world can beat it.… at the moment in a matter of decades we dont know if we will have a bigger and more bad plane. The problem with the F-22 is theres not enough… we should mix squads with F-22, F-16, F-35 and the Super Hornet we need to up size squads to about 6 or 7 planes if we mix those planes in a single group we have land,sea and air dominance. Also with the wepons were developing now we dont know whats gonna happen with air we will see in the next 10 to 20 years… GO USAF!!!!

job loss would be devastating. we ant talking about 100 so loss in jobs but more well in too a thousand. by the way unemployment is almost 10% soo yea go obama yea!!!! whoo hes so young and trendy. i like him because im a ditsy college blond who read in GQ that he was cool. thanks america and the 99.9% of african american votes. damn. i guess there is change less jobs and weaker military defense. by the way if the myan calendar is correct obama would then be the reason for the end of the world think about it gates quits development of both f-22 and the shield missile defense system. hmmmmmm well we will see at the end of the presidential term.

ur rhe only fool

LEFT WING LOON!!

*required

Spam Protection by WP-SpamFree