New Guns Soon for V-22s

New Guns Soon for V-22s

Our colleague Bryan Mitchell has well-rounded coverage of the Marines’ plan to better arm the Osprey for its deployment to  Afghanistan. They plan to install Remote Guardian System kits, giving the planes 360 degree coverage with a 7.62 gun.

Bryan’s story follows:

The Marine Corps is taking the Osprey to its fight in Afghanistan – and it’s a more lethal version than the MV-22 the Corps’ top aviation officer credited with helping tame Iraq’s Anbar province.


Pending successful testing, the Corps plans to deploy a contingent of recently developed weapons system kits that will provide the MV-22 Osprey with 360-degree firepower, according to Lt. Gen. George J. Trautman III, deputy commandant for aviation.

But Trautman confessed the Corps won’t rack up body counts with the new weapon, which is defensive in nature, designed for fire suppression during high-speed infil and exfil missions.

“I wouldn’t expect to kill a lot of people with this system,” Trautman said. “It’s a very difficult challenge without sophisticated fire control technology to be precise in your targeting.”

The Corps has ordered nine of the so-called Remote Guardian System kits, but hopes to buy scores more to outfit the entire fleet of MV-22 aircraft. The 7.62mm rotary cannon in the RGS is mounted in the belly of an Osprey and is controlled by a crewman with a video game-like joystick and video monitor.

The service is also working to upgrade the Osprey’s ramp-mounted machine gun to a .50 caliber version from its current M240 7.62mm machine gun.

The Osprey, Trautman boasts, will redefine the Afghan battle space where Leathernecks tangle with insurgent and Taliban forces in small units separated by 8,000-foot snow-capped mountains and vast rocky badlands.

“We’re incredibly confident [that] having the Osprey in that environment is going to pay dividends for our forces, and that’s why we are intently focused on getting the aircraft into that theater,” he said during an interview with military bloggers.

Trautman said the Corps’ aim is to deploy a handful of RGS detachable mission kits armed with surveillance capabilities on an MV-22 squadron bound for Afghanistan’s harsh environment this fall.

Thousands of Marines are expected to join in the increased American troop presence in Afghanistan following President Barack Obama’s call for 10,000 more boots and rifles to wrest control from a resurgent Taliban.

Trautman’s announcement follows the completion of months of testing by the Air Force Special Operations Command on the BAE Systems’ mission kits, which now gives the aircraft what many critics said it lacked from the beginning: an all-quadrant gun.

Both AFSOC and the Corps hope the new weapons package will enhance an aircraft that Trautman described as “marvelously successful” after 19 months in Iraq.

“The performance thus far tells us that the aircraft completed every assigned mission and it did so flying faster, farther and with safer flight profiles than any other assault aircraft in the history of military operations,” Trautman said.

Dogged by controversy and fatalities during its decades-long development and testing, the Osprey has apparently emerged tougher and smarter for its trials and is delivering Marines significant advantages over its predecessor in the CH-46 Sea Knight. And the new kit will now silence critics who have long called for an all-quadrant weapon for the aircraft.

“There’s a reason we haven’t put an all-aspect weapon on the Osprey in the last decade,” Trautman said. “It’s a tough technical challenge… and has taken us a while to figure it out in an affordable way.”

Trautman acknowledged that readiness issues brought on by environmental factors – fine Iraqi dust – hampered the Osprey’s three combat tours in Iraq, but he said a refined system should help ensure replacements are in place downrange when critical components fail.

In Afghanistan, the Osprey’s Gatling gun will join another new detachable weapons package as the Corps plans to introduce a slightly different weapons portfolio to its KC-130J Super Hercules refueler-transports.

Dubbed Harvest Hawk, the KC-130J may incorporate up to three weapons as well as a sophisticated surveillance system. The Corps is exploring including four wing-based Hellfire missiles, rear ramp-based precision munitions and a paratroop door-positioned cannon to the aircraft.

Both the MV-22 and KC-130J weapons packages are roll-on/roll-off kits that can be affixed to the aircraft in upwards of six hours. They are both manned by a dedicated crewman positioned in the rear of the cabin who operates a fire-control system that combines the video feeds and weapons control.

Trautman said the weapons portfolio will be used much like a helicopter crew, in which the pilot spots a target and talks the fire-control operator onto the target.

Trautman expects the speed and range of the MV-22 will help “turn Texas into Rhode Island” for Marine commanders in Afghanistan’s vast expanses, much like the Osprey did in Iraq.

– Bryan Mitchell

Join the Conversation

You’d do better to just hang firecrackers on the outside, to set off as the thing lands. That will make just as much empty, useless noise, and with the added benefit of not endangering frendlies on the ground. If a V-22 is dropping into a hot LZ then someone has screwed up worse than one gatling is going to fix!

I don’t think it was intended to alow them assault into hot LZ’s, but more like offer them something to defend themselves with when an LZ turns unexpectedly hot. Which is what I think they meant when they referred to it as defensive in nature.

Right now they are getting it deployed ASAP for fire suppression — spray n’ pray might not hit much but it will keep the bad guys behind cover. I’m willing to be that they continue to evolve this weapon to make it as lethal as possible.

Well, if they intend the V-22 to be “self-escorting”, sure, but I didn’t think that was standard Marine doctrine.

And clearing an unexpectedly hot LZ is going to be difficult with a single belly turret–you’d want door guns to do that.

That 360 degree cone of fire will cease as soon as the wheels are on the ground. It sure ain’t gong to be firing through the landing gear. It may be necessary to have a weight on wheels (WOW) switch to prevent accidental firing (stray voltage) when there is weight on the wheels.

I’m thinking this may be a feel good fix. They’ll still need a robust escort in higher threat areas when delivering Marines for combat ops.

Stephen, If you start escorting Ospreys with Cobras and Apaches, you have completely lost the point of having an Osprey in the first place — now the Osprey has to slow down to let the escort helos keep pace. You might as well just use a helo for the infil/exfil to begin with.

The only solution short of fully arming the Osprey is to have an AC-130 escort overhead, but I’m not sure that is even practical without putting troops in serious danger of friendly fire incidents.

In the future, I could see the Osprey being used in an attack role similar to the AC-130, but with much more precision as the Osprey could float right down to the hotspots and unleash hell. I think the only realistic escort for an Osprey is another, heavily armed Osprey.

Wow…I said Osprey a lot in that last post.

might aswell send an a-10 for support.…

Alex: Does the Osprey have enough maneuverability in hover to make loiter workable?

John has the right of it; the “escort” for an Osprey is to send fast-movers in ahead of it to clear out the LZ.

Alternatively, Sikorsky’s X2 (or Piasecki’s Speedhawk).

DD — I have no idea. Obviously it’s not nearly as as maneuverable as a helo, but it’s certainly more so than an AC-130.

But you don’t just send in fast-movers ahead of Ospreys to clean out an LZ — if this was necessary, they wouldn’t be sending the Osprey in the first place (at least that is my understanding). If an Osprey ends up in a hot LZ, it’s probably because it turned that way during the infil/exfil, which means the only options for escort are slow moving aircraft that can hit targets with relative precision. What I didn’t think of in my original post, and what someone mentioned is the A-10 — that seems like the only logical escort for a V-22. F-15/16/18s I don’t think you want strafing or dropping bombs on an LZ with friendly troops trying to get out. Helo gunships are too slow to keep up with the V-22.

Anyways, that is just my speculation. If it was as simple as escorting Osprey’s with A-10s or some other aircraft, they wouldn’t be arming them. Ultimately, you don’t want to have to escort every V-22 you send into a potentially hot LZ — that is costly in time and resources. I assume that as this aircraft evolves and starts to see more combat, they’ll learn how to improve it and make it more defensible.

Alex, I agree and am not advocating the points you make.

However, proper planning would make the helicopters you mention a viable option in that they would launch earlier than the Osprey, thus not negating the speed advantage Osprey has. Osprey obviously still has to slow for hover making it easily targetable unless as mentioned there was a lot of lead flying to keep heads down.
I disagree that Osprey will become an offensive weapon like AC-130’s based on cost alone.

C-27’s would be a much more cost effective choice for that role were it to come up.

Launching helos in advance of the Osprey isn’t an option because if your doing an infiltration, it gives away your element of surprise and if your doing an exfil or a med-evac, you probably don’t have time to wait for the helos to get a jump start. In both cases, it’s no different than just eliminating the Osprey altogether and only using the Helo.

I agree, I doubt they will ever turn a V-22 into an AC130-like gunship. However, I could see the potential for a nose mounted turret similar to an Apache or Cobra, and then two doors (possibly sliding) on either side that would expose 50 cals or Gatling guns. I’m not sure if this is physically possible, but with the turret already mounted on the ramp this would give an Osprey extremely effective, 360 degree protection (albeit probably a limited carrying capacity). You wouldn’t arm them all like this, but I think they would be extremely effective in hairy situations.

i think you either pair this thing with an a-10 (heck i think the v-22 might beable to outrun it lol)

or you bring back something like a sandy from the vietnam era… low and slow and sure did pack a punch and put iron on target..ask anyone who relied on them for CAS…

either way helos will not beable to keep up w/this thing… plus you want to beable to suprise the enemy.. and sending an appache or cobra ahead of time will sure give you away when you want to strike w/suprise..

The better armed Osprey is a good idea — if you needed Apache firepower you could pre-position them near the insertion point. Just a klick or two away would not give away your intended LZ.

Given the modern technology of radios — they could loiter waiting for the Osprey to arrive.

And arming the Osprey would allow it to stand off and fire, then come in and extract your folks. If you sent two Ospreys they could provide mutual fire support.

Just think of the Osprey in Mogadishu — the Blackhawk Down scenario. They could stand off further and move faster — speed is life they say. And an armed Osprey could keep the bad guys low.

Of course the best scenario is a combined arms version — for a quiet extraction you pre-position A-10s and Apaches near the LZ. Come in fast and get your boys. Then depart, leaving the gunships to have the leftovers.

I wouldn’t want to autorotate that bad boy to the ground, though.

I imagine the will Marines have dedicated gunships once they feel they have enough V-22’s in theater to spare some from transport duty.

I don’t think you will ever see door gunners though. There is too much chance the a flex gun will shoot into the osprey’s own propellers (or are they rotors on an osprey?) when the ship has the engines rotated down for level flight.

As far as the worthyness of a minigun as a weapon — they did great in Vietnam.

It seems too many either just don’t know or are forgetting that the V-22 can get in, unload & get out faster than any transport helicopter minimizing its time near the LZ. And you don’t land every transport at the same time so those transports not on the ground unloading can provide suppression fire for those that are.

With that said a ‘gunship’ escort really should be provided to provide more than just suppression fire.

Why does it need an escort flying at 10,000′ en route?

Presumably you would have some sort of CAS and Reaper support for the LZ with helicopter gunships bringing up the rear to support troops in contact after landing…not so much the landing itself. You still probably would plan on MEDEVAC helicopters going with the attack birds to have on board care available.

Wonder how much payload V-22 has to give up with the gun? It will be flying in southern Afghanistan at 3500′, claiming success, while Army helicopters in the northeast are operating at 6,000′ and higher. But the speed in the south and in the highway 1 valley to the north could have its place.

Cole, if a V-22 has to fly an hour from base to LZ, any helo support would be a half hour or more behind assuming they left at the same time. That is useless. If Ospreys need helo gunship support to be effective, then the whole program was a huge waste of money.

I doubt the V-22 has to give up much, if any, payload with the current gun it has mounted.

Alex, I’m kind of assuming the Marines are walking 15 minutes or more to the objective from the non-hot LZ, and then start getting shot at…just about the time the cavalry arrives.

I love how pfcem is such a Boeing zealot that he’ll even post in non-tanker threads to pop non-Boeing aircraft.

i dont think he was dogging anything… had a valid point?

I think a conventional helo like a Blackhawk would be preferable to this tilt rotor stuff if the LZ is really “hot”. That solves the gunship problem. Don’t think I’d risk such an expensive aircraft when helos are so much chaper and more proven.

Don’t forget the potential for fixed wing gunships like AC-130 or AC-27

The fact that AFSOC is working out fire support bugs for the Marines is what joint ops and combined force effectiveness is all about in the various scenarios mentioned above.

These are valid points of concern and certainly will be evaluated in post op debriefings. The important part is to maximize the capability of the overall air operations at 29 Palms MCB with
these combined force doctrines BEFORE they meet
their AFPAK missions to reduce casulty rates of
the ground troops.

sounds to me like the “defensive” gatling is there to keep the ragheads heads down.

Say the osprey is coming in to a LZ and some bandits in the hills around open up with AK74s and 12.7mm machineguns, The pilot calls “incoming, 3o’colck” to the gunner who brings the gatling to the 3’oclok position and starts playing video game shoot-em-up with the bad guys.

spray and pray area suppression.

should read 3 o’clock… touch typing’s not my forte :P

The idea of a modern version of an A-1 would be an excellent compliment to the V-22 as rotary transports hit end of service. It would be cheap, and put a human pilot on site for danger close support.

I suspect the tech in UAVs will evolve enough that they can take over the fire support role before the V-22 goes obsolete, but for now I’d rather have a Marine in the seat.

I say arm the hell out of them, anything that can get the grunts in faster and safer is good in my book. I know that we’ve needed a replacement for the old sea knights that we used to fly in on, I just hope that with all the money they’ve spent on the Osprey, that it turns out to be a great investment. Sometimes I have to wonder, though.

it may be that MV-22’s star will shine in the follow up insertion and rapid resupply after the LZ opposition is completely suppressed.
It’s too early in the PR game to risk losing any while it’s still under such close scrutiny.

I don’t care what gun to put on the V-22 , if this death trap get’s into contact it’s going to be bad very BAD!! If there was ever a program that should have been canceled this is the one. All the money( billions) that they spent on the V-22 should have been spent on making a conventional helicopter that was more survivable and cheaper. What a waste of money .

If they add that remote gun, they lose four troop seats, so only 14 combat equipped troops will fit. They can no longer carry externals with the gun. It adds 1000 lbs of empty weight, so vertical lift is below 6000 lbs. Finally, the biggest threat is a bad guy popping out of hole or building just after the V-22 lands. The belly gun is retracted and there are no pop out windows for anyone to shoot back. So the guy has plenty of time to aim an RPG or unload a full AK-47 mag.

the osprey is a POS trying to find a mission. That is why they want a gun , some old timers in DC want weapons to “get in the fight” and are buying proven useless packages from a air force program that deemed them useless and unsafe. they then abandon the idea.

@ 70 million each you would think it would come with a good gun ! ( just kidding)

Years ago in “Proceedings” magazine there was an article where the premise was: Why the Osprey? The writers position was that it was too fast for conventional helicopter escort, and flew too low for Harrier escort. The Osprey is unpressurized in the back.

The only possible solution to the issue was to create a gunship Osprey to escort the Osprey. There have been studies @ Bell of something of the sort. Think of a Mi-24 fuselage with the Osprey’s wings welded to the top… Troops, and guns, with missiles mounted on short sponsons.

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