Pentagon ‘Stonewall’ on Osprey

Pentagon ‘Stonewall’ on Osprey

UPDATED: With Marine statement that they supplied all relevant information requested by the House committee and OSD had not released it.
It was the shortest hearing I’ve ever attended. The House Government Oversight and Reform Committee was due to hold a hearing about the V-22 this morning, starting at 10 a.m. It started about 10:10 and was all over by 10:15, following a sharply worded condemnation of the Pentagon by the committee’s chairman, Rep. Edolphus Towns (D-NY). 

“We had hoped to conduct today a thorough examination of the Defense Department’s V-22 Osprey, an aircraft with a controversial past, a troubled present, and an uncertain future. However, the Defense Department has evidently decided to stonewall our investigation. On May 5, 2009, I wrote to Secretary of Defense Gates to request information on the Osprey, including copies of two reports on the performance of the Osprey in Iraq, called “Lessons and Observations.” I also requested a list of all V-22 Ospreys acquired by the Defense Department, including their current locations and flight status,” Towns said. “However, to this date, the Defense Department has failed to provide this information, despite repeated reminders from the Committee. This is simply unacceptable.”

He trained his eyes on Marine Lt. Gen. George Trautman, deputy commandant for aviation, and Towns gave him a message “to carry back to the Pentagon: We will pursue this investigation even harder than we have so far. We will not be slow-rolled. We will not be ignored. I intend to conduct a full investigation of the Osprey, not just an investigation of the information that you want me to see. We hope you will provide it voluntarily, but if you do not, we will compel your compliance.”

The room was very quiet. Towns then gave the Pentagon two weeks to come up with the information and gaveled the hearing adjourned. For those who might attribute this to partisan sniping, the committee’s top Republican, Rep. Darrell Issa of California, seconded Town’s comments. He also exonerated the Marines. “I want to be clear that the immediate reason for this postponement was not the Marine Corps, which gathered requested information, but rather a bureaucratic failure of the Office of the Secretary of Defense which has not authorized the release of these documents,” Issa added in his statement. 

I asked Trautman for an explanation. He was courteous, declined to comment and left the room. It was difficult to tell whether the Marines knew beforehand just how ticked off the committee was.

Several hours after the hearing, we got a fuller explanation of what was going on and it sounds as if OSD either made a mistake or is holding its cards very close to the vest.

“While we understand Chairman Towns’ postponement of the V-22 hearing, we are disappointed that we did not get the opportunity to discuss with members of Congress the remarkable success of the Osprey over the past 19 months in Iraq. We remain committed to openness and transparency, much as we have demonstrated over the past year while working hand-in-hand with the Government Accountability Office as they also examine the V-22 program,” said Marine aviation spokesman Maj. Eric Dent. “We provided four giant binders (approximately 500 pages) with all of the information the committee requested, e.g. maintenance data, classified after-action reports, and other information; and OSD has a process for vetting that info before it is released.”

There have been persistent rumors that the Ospreys have had some difficulties with their supply chain and with maintenance. Looks like we’ll see how accurate those rumors are in two weeks, or less if Buzz readers let us know what’s happening. As always, if you have good information you can supply it without any fingerprints.

This website uses IntenseDebate comments, but they are not currently loaded because either your browser doesn't support JavaScript, or they didn't load fast enough.

Join the Conversation

The Osprey has always had a perfect service record. The Osprey has always been a perfect solution for a critical warfighter need. The Osprey has always had a 100% record of meeting its mission-available goals. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.

What good is a hearing when the Osprey is already out in the field?

John, to stop the damn thing from being used when a real shooting war starts involving an enemy thats knows what theyre doing and has the tech to go with that knowledge. And hopefully, maybe in dream land here, get the marines some blackhawks instead.

John the civi,

Just because something has made it into the field doesn’t mean everything in the weapon system is working perfectly. Once you deploy there are always nifty things that pop and need rejiggering.

“Just because something has made it into the field doesn’t mean everything in the weapon system is working perfectly. Once you deploy there are always nifty things that pop and need rejiggering.”

True, but does Congress know more than the operators, maintainers and logisticians? What solutions does this committee propose that would not leave a capability gap? In other words, besides cutting V-22 and providing no funding for a replacement, what does Congress intend to do to help the situation?

doc75,

Until Congress gets the data requested it is difficult to predict what Congress might do with the info.Congress practices oversight once a weapon is deployed and this is part of that oversight. The committee, if it gets the info, will use the very data and OSD’s conclusions compiled by the operators and those who keep them flying to make decisions.

the osprey hasnt been deployed long enough to determine any info… problems always arise in maintenece when the guys havnt been working on it long enough to work out the kinks.… the things brand new… just started deploying! give it atleast a yr or two in theather..

Tell that to the F-22 and F-35. Nothing is going to stop the Osprey train.

jimbo: I think that the real issue here is that the military, when presented with a request from civilian oversight, responded with an institutional middle finger.

Anyone know about the Osprey “Hall of Shame” located at the Boeing facility in Pennsylvania were dozens of unrepairable V-22s are stashed. I’ve been told there are several damaged V-22s in a hangar at New River NC that were cannibalized for parts. I’ve been told there are several that were sent back to Amarillo for conversion to “Block Bs”, but their airframes had damage that couldn’t be repaired. Congress has funded 150 V-22s through FY2009, so around 140 have been delivered. The Corps claims only 84 are in service, and won’t account for the rest. Meanwhile, there are none in Iraq or Afghanistan. From what I understand, after two years of service they have so many problems with leaky hydraulic lines and cracks in wings or the floor that they are quietly retired. 

This is why the Corps only has four squadrons of 10 aircraft each in fleet service. Next year, the Marines want 30 more V-22s in the FY2010 budget, but will only stand up one more squadron. 

The parts issue is BS. They announced two years ago that an amazing $100 million in parts were sent to Iraq before the first squadron was sent. And keep in mind that a $100,000 a year Boeing tech rep goes with each V-22 deployed to help the Marine maintainers.

In time, the V-22 can be fixed, and most likely replace other transport helos. (if not new helos be made using technology from it)

Zach: Yeah, they’ll show the designers a picture of the V-22 and say “don’t do ANY of this” 8D

This plane just won’t die, a prime example of the dogged and relentless approach to pet projects in the government (not just the DOD). Check the Wikipedi entry for this plane — original proposal 1983, final operational GO in 2005, program zero’ed by Dick Cheney while SecDef but refunded by Congress (the Texas delegation has long supported this program), crashes killing soldiers, continued redesign as if to chase a mission that either doesn’t exist anymore or is better served by other platforms.

Will someone please drive a stake through this thing’s heart!

To bad there was not an internet in 1960. Then we all of us “who have been told”, etc., would have had a chance to rail against a rotorcraft that was even more expensive for its day than the Osprey and had crashed more and killed far more troops. To my knowledge no one has refused to fly the Osprey, in the early sixties several pilots refused to fly the “Boeing Body Bag” (a.k.a. Chinook).

I sat at Ft. Rucker for a month waiting for a transition into Blackhawks while the Army scrambled to figure out why the “Lawn Dart (a.k.a. Blackhawk) was flipping over in flight with the expected result.

Problem is the military had been asking for a better aircraft, and the industry responded with more of the same helicopters.
There’s no mystery why the Osprey hung on through decades of development. It was the only new thing they had going. 

The time to call the whole idea into question was about thirty years ago when they were just starting. To do it now, after the money’s been spent and the problems solved, is simply politics.

What arrogance by the General. He says the V-22 worked great in Iraq, but won’t let anyone read the detailed report. Congress buys the Marines 150 V-22s, but the General won’t tell Congress what their status is. More on this at G2mil.com

Every program has had the same development crises — at one time the AWACS was a waste, and then the Congress said they were too capable to sell overseas! The C-5 was a mess, and then suddenly they were indispensable. The Abrams tank was too big, too heavy, too everything. But against the Iraqi army and the T-72 — they did a heck of a job.

The V-22 is not in development. It first flew in 1989 and went into production in 1999. Yes, all have problems, and some are cancelled as a result. This would have been cancelled if the truth weren’t hidden.

I found more details on this issue here.
http://springboarder.blogspot.com/2009/05/mv-22-catches-hostile-firefrom-congress.html

Re: update. A plausible excuse, but also a convenient piece of buck-passing. I’d think that if the Marines had already provided the info and OSD was dragging its feet, then LtGen Trautman would have fired back at Towns right then and there.

So, Rep Towns is from New York. Sikorsky Aircraft has HQ on Long Island. This is just another example of how Congress is for sale. EVERYTHING is up for bid. Sometimes, Congress uses its power to coerce payoffs (Microsoft and the “embedded browser” is one example) and sometimes (like this) Congress pays back investments. Sorry folks, but it isn’t concern for the troops, operational capabilities, or the budget. Facts will be spun and dirt will be spread. So now, why are the civilian political pros at DoD slow rolling?

What’s at stake is the balance of the buy from the program of record. Ultimately the Marine Corps wants 360 V-22s (the final of which is scheduled to be delivered in FY 15). This is high stakes poker. Look what just happened to the F-22 buy. (It went from 700-something to 183.) It’s not the mishap rate that’ll kill this airplane; it’s the Osprey’s maintainability and supportability. The Corps knows that and the readiness rate numbers suck right now. I’m surprised Trautman didn’t stare the lawmakers down and shout, “You can’t handle the truth!”

The Osprey has continued to stagger along and seemingly was given to the marines who suffer with square pegs to fit into round holes syndrome. The Corps will seemingly always be the red-haired step child of the Pentagon using whatever else any other service did not want could not use and or could not fully fund. The requirements for the Osprey are there but buried under so much political feces as to obscure its potential. The PBS show ‘Carrier’ comes to mind with their older aircraft being flogged to death. (The Marines WWII premier fighter the Corsair was given to them after problems getting it aboard Navy carriers.)
As for not having the information I would think the Commandant for Air had the info on less than a 150 of his over 750 available airframe right at his fingertip and chose (or was ordered) not give them that information at that time. Personally I believe that most Congressman couldn’t pass a security screening (to get a classified clearance, The mouth from San Francisco who is the speaker) on a bet
Foo

Fderfler: Sikorsky HQ moved from Long Island to Stratford Conn in 1929.

Wow Josh: If you have a clearance, I hope it is taken away from you.

I have been involved personally in bringing the A5A/B/C Vigilante into the fleet in 1962/63/64 on the USS ENTERPRISE CVAN-65 as asst squadron maintenance officer. This plane was light years ahead (mach2.2 vs 450 knots) of its predecessor, the A3 SKYWARRIOR.
Unfortunately,(or not) its mission was eclipsed by POLARIS MISSILES. But did the navy cancel the contract? oh no, we made it a recon bird, for which it was was EXTREMELY unsuited.
At the time, the navy (and air force) purchased the F-4 PHANTOM, a GREAT air superiority fighter, and tried to make it a ground attack support plane.
I could write a book about these and similar situations, all seemingly made on politics, NOT the needs of the service.

fooman: From what I can see, the Marines were some of the most enthusiastic advocates of the V-22. And there’s no “political feces” involved in the requirements for the V-22. It’s Just Too Damn Complicated. There are better ways to accomplish the same mission, but everyone fell in love with tilt-rotor and so they threw enough money in the pot to make it work.

If you think the V-22 is complicated… look at the f-35…

Can’t Autorotate, Fly by wire, total maintenance monstrosity, props fold, wing folds, unbelievable rotorwash; it is no good. I flew and worked on Helo’s and fixed wing for 20 years– it is a big scam and will be retired in a few years after the last possible cent has been taken from the taxpayers pocket.

The biggest problem this bird has is that if anything stops an engine the bird becomes a rock. And the crew gets buried under it.

Does everyone not remeber the M-16 steaming pile of s**t. the was shoved down the soldiers throat in Veitnam. When i went to kuwiat and Iraq i still had to uses this standard issue disater. i was also issued a M9 that had to be modified or it would kill you. i was also there in New River, NC when this flying death trap rolled out the F’n box. What foward disigners they have and i Quote “crash worthy seating” telling all us. that this thing was going to fall out the sky “not if, maybe, but did. While i was in New River between us and cherry point we killed and avaitor a month. later when i was stationed at cherry point we had to cover for our Cheif (who also was a volinteer firefight) while he fought a forrest fire caused by the crash of this flying demon of death. Then you train helo pilots to fly a machine with fixed wing controls our these people retarded or have brain damage. i guess when you go to college, party all night, chase women, and do drugs you get to be a flipping engineer.
i could be wrong this is just my opinion

when helicopter first appeared in korea, it must have had as many trouble as v-22 now. its completely dump to kill a tiltrotor just because the 1st of its kind isnt perfect.

I guess Sikorsky is not selling enough helicopters to the Marines, so they want business from the V-22 budget as well.
It appears that the Pentagon is reading Rep Towns’s actions for what they very well may be smoke and mirros for pork barrel money for district.
If it is true it is such a shame we have to put up with this nonsense to provide equipment to our fighting forces. There is not an aircraft in the civilian or military inventory that did have teething problems in the developemnt process. Even Sikorsky’s Blackhawk had problems and the irony is that the Blackhawn flights with rotorblade technology designed by Boeing during the original competion which Sikorsky had won. Give us a break!

I was in a really important meeting in fall 2005 where the CSAF was present. He looked tired and worn down. It seems that congress wanted to know why the AF wasn’t more aggressively pursuing the Osprey. I couldn’t help but feel bad for him because it’s congress that has pushed that piece of crap since day one. Anyone that knows anything about aviation knows that the Osprey is a bad idea that refuses to die! Oh, and the F-35 will make the F-111 look like a superb example of multi-service cooperation.

The osprey is different and that scares people. The simple fact of why the Osprey was built at all is because the militaries’ need for a tactical lifter exceeded a black hawk, exceeded a helicopter. The priority of the design was range, capacity, and speed, and in that regard it beats out existing helicopters. The Ospreys deficiencies are the trade offs that come with the marines change in priorities. Complaints about the Osprey are like complaining a Ford Excursion isn’t a minivan. They’re two different things that accomplish moving people from “A” to “B” in two different ways.

We also need to be fair. A black hawk helicopter is a second generation helicopter with third generation upgrades, but the Osprey is a first generation tilt rotor,while more modern it isn’t as mature a technology but does exceed the limits of helicopters. It requires more development which will never happen if we stick solely to a technology that has reached its physical limits.

I know someone who worked on the Ospreys development and the majority of its structural issues are tied to a material supplier who provided titanium for its construction.

The inability for the V-22 to survive a single engine shutdown during its VTOL procedure is unacceptable risk for our soldiers. Period. Every other flying vehicle has a plan for engine failure at ALL stages of flight. What is the V-22 plan? Hold on?

That we are still having this discussion 10(!) years after they entered into production is ridiculous, especially when you consider the poor safety record and high maintenance costs.

If a VTOL or STOL troop carrying plane is the only solution, figure something else out. 4 smaller engines for redundancy maybe?

The US Army is beginning to look like loyal stewards of the taxpayers’ dough.

The Marine Corps is aspiring to be as useless, wasteful and expensive as the other 2 thirds of the Navy and Air Force.

The Osprey is a science project, it has the supportability and mission reliability of the space shuttle and cannot do a lot of things it was supposed to do.

The answer in Dec 2000 after if killed a New River crew was stand down and fix it.

There should never have been a restart.

You do not deliver more than the low rate prouction quantity if the airplane failed OT&E.

Which is did in 2000, failed OT&E.

It should be in the same class as the B-2, 20 tilt rotor fiascoes gingerly rotoring around looking for photo ops.

I am always amazed at the vigor with which armchair generals rail against a cause ‘de jour’.

Chinook was a dangerous aircraft that troops did not want to fly in. Blackhawk same thing. Guess what, both were 3 to 5 times more expensive than the aircraft they replaced.

I flew hawks when it was a ‘lawn dart’ or ‘crashhawk’. It worked fine, but oh by the way it does not autorotate real fine with a load of troops, nor does it fly real well on one engine with high gross weights. 

My opinion, which I think just as valid as anyone else here, is you ought to be asking the aircrews what they want to fly since it is their butts on the line everyday. Unlike us REMF pundits.

Well gentle men all this is well and good but when good men are dying because this machine can not meet the need or requirement, which is a problem. Just in the last few weeks, a corpsman (combat medic for you army types) was covering a range detail at camp lejeune. There was a round that re-bounded off something in the gun Pitts. This round pierced his heart. The other doc’s (Corpsman) work to stabilize him while an osprey was called in. The wounded man was load and was ready for medivac. The F**king bird broke down. An other one was called in. This d**khead of a pilot keep farting around about landing. He was finally loaded and 2 minutes out from lejeune naval he died. If he had gotten to the hospital 20–30 earlier if the first bird would have worked. This was one of my own that died because this thing has as you all call it “have a few bugs”. Pardon my French F**k that, this was a young man who devoted his life and career to protecting and healing others. How many more of our comrades have to die, until this thing is taken off line and either fixed or use something that does. Give me my old stand-by The Ch46. she’s old, she leaks, she never left me ground pounding, and at least those pilots had some balls. So stop all the crap and look at the amount of human loss. Because if my son, nephew, or any other family member get hurt or dies because of this bird. Someone will have my foot so far up their as they will have to open their mouth so I can un-tie my shoe.
I could be wrong, this is just my opinion

Fair enough Parry. I doubt anyone is going to convince you otherwise. Losing a Marine is never good. I never lost a trooper, but I did have one that got his arm shot damn near off, by our CO no less, and he went to the hospital in a UH-1H because it could get off the ground faster. Now all of the MEDEVAC in the Regular Army are UH-60 because they figured out how to make it work. Also the UH-60 flies 30 knots faster than a UH-1H. 

Interestingly my feelings are just the opposite of yours regarding my children. If my kids die because they have to fly around in the same old POS designed for another war, I’m going to put my foot up some third point of contact.

yasotay,

Not sure what you have against the UH-60L/M or what you like about the V-22 other than its speed. But consider this link:

http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/Leishman_0207_RDS.pdf

And within the link, consider footnote 10 quoted below:

“A UH-60L helicopter can lift (fuel and useful load)over 5,600lbs at a takeoff altitude of 10,000 feet versus only some 2800lbs of equivalent load for the V-22 Osprey. The UH-60L can also carry 3000lbs of useful load at this altitude to some 250 nautical miles, a feat
unmatched by the V-22.”

Now if that is true, then it sheds great light on a recent article I read where a plenty strong UH-60L unit had to defer to a CH-47D unit to conduct a mission at 11,000′ in Afghanistan…where no doubt casualties occur, and the V-22 would be ill-suited to land.

And because the Army can apparently buy a new CH-47 for $36 million or a refurbished one for $24 million, that tells me the more capable lift aircraft with 170 knot speed costs 1/3 to 1/2 of a $72+ million V-22…and uses about HALF the fuel to fill up in the FARP as well. V-22 also cost 6 times that of a the killed Bell ARH which was killed for excessive cost???

A UH-60M versus V-22 is a veritable bargain and yet has similar or better lift at high altitude. Consider the vulnerability of a V-22 climbing out to 10,000′ AGL and descending to shoulder-fired missiles and radar-guided gun threats. Consider the LZs a UH-60 can fit in to pick up casualties or drop off/pick-up troops that the V-22 wouldn’t have a prayer of squeezing into.

With on board care on a UH-60, does the speed en route make that much difference over 130 nautical miles…half an hour at most? Does having multiple quick reaction UH-60s affordably positioned in multiple places closer to the fight counteract having all the V-22s at Kandahar or one airfield in Iraq?

Consider how the V-22 loses much of its speed advantage if carrying an external load or flying low at night…which it would need to do in any kind of a radar air defense threat.

The fact is that the additional complexity of tilt rotors means that it will never be as inexpensive as a helicopter. The lack of vertical lift at high altitude where the air is less dense, will always make it a lower-altitude one trick speed pony.

Ever seen what a Growler costs to get it to fit into the 6′ wide V-22 cargo compartment?

Pathetic.

Parry, get a grip ONE V-22 broke down. Big F***ing deal. DOZENS of lives have been saved by the V-22 due to its vastly superior capabilities as a medivac vs any current helicopter.

***

Cole, Please stop with the nonsense of fualting the V-22 for not being what it was never intended to be.

Speaking of pathetic, tough guy’s even using the F-word now to attempt to look tough when it isn’t remotely in his constitution.

ONE V-22 broke down? You’re cracking me up dude. Why do you think the Marines are hiding its non-mission capable problems?

Do you want to compare the numbers of Soldiers saved by the V-22 to the MEDEVAC UH-60? Suspect it is a ratio of something literally like 1,000 to 1.

You’re the one fond of saying you should park the KC-X closer to the fight. Can you fathom the concept that a quick reaction UH-60 MEDEVAC aircraft parked 65 NM from the fight will reach the casualty just as fast as a technically complex, large, maintenance intensive V-22 located 130 NM from the fight where there is a large fuel supply? 

Can you fathom the difference between an aircraft that uses 1400–1700 gallons per fill up (2000 for Air Force CV-22) and one that uses 360 gallons (1000 for Chinook)? Are you saying the Army should buy an aircraft that can’t fit into tight LZs to rescue the wounded and can’t pick them up from the high altitudes that are MAINSTREAM in northeast Afghanistan?

BTW, the flywaway cost of a UH-60M is around $18 million. Compare that to a V-22 at $72 million which is four times as much. 

Then compare the costs of operation per flight hour. Not sure what that is, but suspect it is AT LEAST a 4 to 1 difference if the fuel quantities are indicative. The maintenance costs for the V-22 would always be considerably higher.

Typical Cole. COMPLETELEY misrepresenting what others post. Parry ranted about the V-22 becasue ONE V-22 broke down that contributed to ONE dealth while completely & utterly failing to recognize the DOZENS of lives that have been saved by the V-22 (including many that would likely have died if not for the V-22’s greater speed & range).

YOU are the one you seems to have a problem fathoming the difference between the V-22 & UH-60 and how absurd it is to compare them as equals/competators.

pfcem, guess I couldn’t get past:

“Pathetic”…“get a grip”…“nonsense”.…“ONE V-22 broke down” (as opposed to every single one all the time)…“Big F***ing deal”…“vastly superior capabilities as a medivac vs any current helicopter” (while you later said “how absurd it is to compare them as equals/competitors”) 

You are correct on that last one. There are no or few (cite otherwise) “dedicated” MEDEVAC V-22 competitors, only CASEVAC with no or little on board care/equipment. 

Meanwhile, the Army has pilots, medics, equipment dedicated to the MEDEVAC mission and located at multiple FOBs closer to potential wounded Soldiers and level II aid facilities.

Please google and read “On Point II” and the articles “Following the Wounded Soldier in Iraq” and “Moving Emergency Treatment Closer to the Front Lines”

Finally, found a link that said MEDEVAC aircraft should fly at sea level or destination airfield altitude (lower the better) when carrying patients with “impaired tissue oxygenation,”“HEAD TRAUMA,” and less than 6,000′ MSL with Cardiac patients. Doesn’t sound like V-22 en route altitudes to me. I would put a slower helicopter WITH on board care up against a faster V-22 “heh you” any day.

You are correct. The two aircraft are not ocmpetitors. Suspect Soldiers would prefer four HH-60s with superb FLIR optics, pilots who know hospital and high altitude combat outpost locations, and on board medics/PAs located at four forward FOBs in northeast Afghanistan over one V-22 located at Bagram anyday…even if money was not an issue.

I think the HH-60 is a better option.

The V-22 is a pheonix that will rise from the ashes time and time again. The V-22 is not a medivac asset, it was designed to take marines to the front in larger numbers, faster, and with more equipment than the current helicopter fleet. The V-22 is intended to work from the decks of the helicopter carriers and support the marines at the front with logistics. If we have no more amphibious operations (as suggested by SecDef Gates), we don’t need the V-22 or the helicopter carriers. We can turn the marine corps into a US Army unit and move on.

Minor input the V-22 survived via a young Congressman from Ft. Wth. Texas who pushed when no one appeared to want it. I am involved in the building of the empennage of the V-22 and I also work on the Blackhawk both as a Systems Mfg engineer, both aircraft have different missions with support from various sides. I do beleive that records should be disclosed to evaluate the performance by all persons who control the aircraft existence. We all know Helo’s don’t fly the beat the air into submission, also I rode in CHINOOKs in Korea and was unaware they were dangerous but, they got me where I had to be.

Cole, nothing against the UH-60. I liked flying them.
My point was that at some point both the well used CH-47 and UH-60 were considered death traps and were derided as being exceedingly expensive compared to the aircraft that they were replacing. Comparing a full up MEDEVAC helicopter to a V-22 doing CASEVAC is apples and oranges. Compare a UH-60 doing CASEVAC and a V-22 doing CASEVAC. “Speed is life” has been a maxim of aviation for a long time. The article is interesting as it does not mention that one of the reasons that the CH-47 does all of the high altitude work is because the UH-60 tail rotor does not work so well in the high altitude (been there personally). The CH-47 (and the V-22 [a sideways CH-47]) do not have tail rotor authority issues operating above 10K.

My real point is that like all NEW aircraft it has to work through initial operations, just like every other new aircraft, like the UH-60 and the CH-47. It is expensive, just like the CH-47 and UH-60 were when they were new. Had we had internet in the late 70’s and early 80’s these arguments would be about how a UH-60 was ten times more expensive than a refurbished UH-1. Do you know how much a new UH-60M cost?

Cole,

Sorry I missed the $18M… so the V-22 is only four times as expensive as a UH-60M. We are getting better.

Rumor has it that the Army is starting to think about UH-60 replacement. I look at the fact that a UH-60M can’t pick up the new M777 howitzer or even up armored Hummers and I gotta think the Hawk is getting were the ol’ reliable UH-1H was.

when helicopter first appeared in korea, it must have had as many trouble as v-22 now. its completely dump to kill a tiltrotor just because the 1st of its kind isnt perfect.

Good comments yasotay and charlie,

Didn’t realize that tail rotor authority was a problem for the UH-60 although do recall seeing that USAF CSAR H-60 spin and crash on Mt Hood. I had Blackhawk transition orders in 1985 but when they grounded them due to the stabilator problem, I elected to stay at Rucker rather than wait 10 months for the projected transition before going to Ft. Ord and lost the transition. 

About the only challenging thing I ever did in a helicopter was fly UH-1H in the Sinai just before Desert Storm and in Germany during the Cold War…and didn’t get to fly much at that. 

Sure there is a place for the V-22. And I’m sure you recall that OR rates for the AH-64A were sometimes in the 50% range.…but of course a lot of the armament and early optics were responsible for that…which is not a V-22 problem…yet.:)

It will take time to work out the tilt rotor bugs and the maintenance record will get better. The Marines apparently flew each aircraft 62–65 hours a month and maintenance per flight hour has been reduced from 24 for the CH-46 to 9.5 hrs for the V-22. Big plus!

That said, when they replaced the UH-1H with the UH-60A, I seem to recall a cost of about $6 million per aircraft…a far cry from what an F-15 cost which was being produced around the same time.

In contrast, the V-22 is half the cost of a F-22, which itself is light years more expensive than the F-15…even accounting for inflation.

So guess the point is, no matter how good the V-22 is at what it does, can we afford to buy so many of them? We stopped buying B-2s and F-22s because they simply cost too much. The V-22 is the same. With the Navy already flying H-60 variants, you would think some mix of H-60, CH-53K, and V-22 would be more cost and mission effective than an all V-22 force to replace the CH-46.

There is also the physics problem. With the smaller disc area, a tilt rotor will ever have the high altitude lift of a helicopter. So you can point to situations where a 250 knot V-22 surpasses a 170 knot CH-47. But the Army can point to multiple situations where a V-22 simply cannot function at high altitude. Seems like a wash except that one aircraft costs twice as much as the other.

Kind of gets back to that mix of expensive and less expensive aircraft and maybe a mix of EFV and some other armored vehicle the Army and Marines could share together and be flown via a shared CH-53K. 

But lately it seems like the Navy and Marines get anything they want Tony, and the Army gets repeatedly screwed on acquisitions and deployments. Couldn’t have anything to do with former John Young being a former Navy undersecretary could it.;) Probably doesn’t hurt having Admiral Mullen being the Chairman, too.

Seems to me, Tony. you can make a great argument for having Marines on ships close to potential conflict areas. But that doesn’t mean you have an equally effective argument that you must have an amphibious assault capability. Landing next door in an allied or unopposed entry country could be performed just as readily. 

That would allow the Marines to better design their equipment (perhaps jointly) to fight on land where they spend 99.9% of their time in combat and counterinsurgency.

The Osprey is a niche aircraft–it only does minor variations on its main theme: Assault. The Corps should have used a Capabilities Based Approach to aircraft procurement: “Preparing, under uncertainty, to provide capabilities suitable for a wide range of challenges while working within an economic framework that necessitates prioiritization and choice.” To do less–which the Corps did–is to use the taxpayers’ dollars frivolously and carelessly. The service’s paranoia was fine I suppose in different times, though I predicted it would come to this, but, it is not fine now. The Osprey is a fragile, one trick pony–we need tough, multi-capable machines that do 80% of missions to 80% of capability–and rely on our men and women to make up the difference.

Doesn’t ITT have the contract to put an ECM system (SIRFIC) on the V22? Doesn’t matter if the V22 works or not, if ITT is involved, it will get fielded.

PFCem,

I don’t know where you get your info, but I was there when this thing was brought to life. We were told how vastly superior this thing was going to be. I was there when they tried using it as a SAR aircraft and the down draft was so bad it dam near kill the guy on the line. I spent the majority of my career trying to save both brave and heroic shipmates and marines. I have flown in almost all the aircraft we have in the arsenal. Yes this is a great idea of and aircraft in theory. The thing is in the real world PFC things are a lot different. When we can not field more 65–75% of the aircraft there is a huge problem. I would rather have a CH46, CH53, Huey, or even a Blackhawk over this piece of shit. I don’t care if a 100 people have been saved. The loss of 1 life is understandable but the live of several aircrews, marines, and corpsman is unacceptable. I have been on the front lines and I know you have only the guy next to you and your equipment to put your trust in. I would and will wave off any medivac buy one of these flying coffins. When a corpsman works his ass off to save even one life, and then see it snatched away by mechanical failure that’s bullshit. As for the aircrew who fly them my hat is of to you. You are truly brave men and women of the sky to fly this. To you few aircrews in the V-22 I hope they fix the problems and failures before you lose anymore of your comrade. As to you PFCEM I would rather strap a wounded marine to my back and carry him to the aid station than trust his life to this flying failure. What hurts me more about this aircraft is I was with the squadron that helped bring this to the fleet. So Colonial if you’re reading this, I am sorry but I feel this thing has failed you and our men and women in the fleet.

PFCEM I have saved more lives in leaky, half broke, noisy, shaky CH46’s.…

Cole,

I agree with most of what you have said. Nor can I agree that the people in charge seem to be a little one sided. In the marines they have had to accept the army’s cast-off project for years. 29 palms CA is an example of that. The army said it was uninhabitable, the marine where given it and it is one of the only bases you can training for the desert and do live fire training. The biggest one that comes to mind is the SAW this thing had cost over runs and when it was sent to us in the field you had better luck throwing rocks. The army spent money and time on it, did not like, and did not want it. So what did my marine brethren do, fixed it the best they could and made it work. It still has a few thing people don’t like but it’s a main stay. So I guess what I am trying to say is the army and the marines have similar duties but completely different missions. It is about time that they get front row gear instead of the armies hand me downs.

The V-22 is a attempt at this, but unfortunately it does not work and the cost of using it is being paid in blood.

I found this website while looking for a very cynical summation of the V22: you might find it apposite: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/V-22_Osprey

Well gentle men all this is well and good but when good men are dying because this machine can not meet the need or requirement, which is a problem. Just in the last few weeks, a corpsman (combat medic for you army types) was covering a range detail at camp lejeune. There was a round that re-bounded off something in the gun Pitts. This round pierced his heart. The other doc’s (Corpsman) work to stabilize him while an osprey was called in. The wounded man was load and was ready for medivac. The F**king bird broke down. An other one was called in. This d**khead of a pilot keep farting around about landing. He was finally loaded and 2 minutes out from lejeune naval he died. If he had gotten to the hospital 20–30 earlier if the first bird would have worked. This was one of my own that died because this thing has as you all call it “have a few bugs”. Pardon my French F**k that, this was a young man who devoted his life and career to protecting and healing others. How many more of our comrades have to die, until this thing is taken off line and either fixed or use something that does. Give me my old stand-by The Ch46. she’s old, she leaks, she never left me ground pounding, and at least those pilots had some balls. So stop all the crap and look at the amount of human loss. Because if my son, nephew, or any other family member get hurt or dies because of this bird. Someone will have my foot so far up their as they will have to open their mouth so I can un-tie my shoe.
I could be wrong, this is just my opinion

First of all you need to get all the facts straight and not make this out to get the Marines for your brother (corpsman) out to be the victim. He was and idiot and did something wrong by crossing the red line while firing was going on. The V-22 that showed up I know the pilot and he was getting flack from everyone from landing, to loading, to taking off to Lejuene to landing at lejuene. O yea retard he died at Lejuene when the Doc at the Hospital took the gauze off his chest. I also know the crewchief on the A/C. So I think you are stupid to say what you did since you have no clue of what actually took place that day like I do. If you dont like what you see then shut up and move on. Next time you open your mouth make sure you know what accually happened. I know what took place that whole day. O yea it wasnt on lejuene. Got one question what do you know about the A/C besides the crap they put on the internet that half is not true.

The V-22 is a pheonix that will rise from the ashes time and time again. The V-22 is not a medivac asset, it was designed to take marines to the front in larger numbers, faster, and with more equipment than the current helicopter fleet. The V-22 is intended to work from the decks of the helicopter carriers and support the marines at the front with logistics. If we have no more amphibious operations (as suggested by SecDef Gates), we don’t need the V-22 or the helicopter carriers. We can turn the marine corps into a US Army unit and move on.

Sorry tony the Marines will never stand for that, but you do know almost what you are talking about.

*required

Spam Protection by WP-SpamFree