Sorry tony the Marines will never stand for that, but you do know almost what you are talking about.

First of all you need to get all the facts straight and not make this out to get the Marines for your brother (corpsman) out to be the victim. He was and idiot and did something wrong by crossing the red line while firing was going on. The V-22 that showed up I know the pilot and he was getting flack from everyone from landing, to loading, to taking off to Lejuene to landing at lejuene. O yea retard he died at Lejuene when the Doc at the Hospital took the gauze off his chest. I also know the crewchief on the A/C. So I think you are stupid to say what you did since you have no clue of what actually took place that day like I do. If you dont like what you see then shut up and move on. Next time you open your mouth make sure you know what accually happened. I know what took place that whole day. O yea it wasnt on lejuene. Got one question what do you know about the A/C besides the crap they put on the internet that half is not true.

I agree with most of what you have said. Nor can I agree that the people in charge seem to be a little one sided. In the marines they have had to accept the army’s cast-off project for years. 29 palms CA is an example of that. The army said it was uninhabitable, the marine where given it and it is one of the only bases you can training for the desert and do live fire training. The biggest one that comes to mind is the SAW this thing had cost over runs and when it was sent to us in the field you had better luck throwing rocks. The army spent money and time on it, did not like, and did not want it. So what did my marine brethren do, fixed it the best they could and made it work. It still has a few thing people don’t like but it’s a main stay. So I guess what I am trying to say is the army and the marines have similar duties but completely different missions. It is about time that they get front row gear instead of the armies hand me downs.

The V-22 is a attempt at this, but unfortunately it does not work and the cost of using it is being paid in blood.

I don’t know where you get your info, but I was there when this thing was brought to life. We were told how vastly superior this thing was going to be. I was there when they tried using it as a SAR aircraft and the down draft was so bad it dam near kill the guy on the line. I spent the majority of my career trying to save both brave and heroic shipmates and marines. I have flown in almost all the aircraft we have in the arsenal. Yes this is a great idea of and aircraft in theory. The thing is in the real world PFC things are a lot different. When we can not field more 65–75% of the aircraft there is a huge problem. I would rather have a CH46, CH53, Huey, or even a Blackhawk over this piece of shit. I don’t care if a 100 people have been saved. The loss of 1 life is understandable but the live of several aircrews, marines, and corpsman is unacceptable. I have been on the front lines and I know you have only the guy next to you and your equipment to put your trust in. I would and will wave off any medivac buy one of these flying coffins. When a corpsman works his ass off to save even one life, and then see it snatched away by mechanical failure that’s bullshit. As for the aircrew who fly them my hat is of to you. You are truly brave men and women of the sky to fly this. To you few aircrews in the V-22 I hope they fix the problems and failures before you lose anymore of your comrade. As to you PFCEM I would rather strap a wounded marine to my back and carry him to the aid station than trust his life to this flying failure. What hurts me more about this aircraft is I was with the squadron that helped bring this to the fleet. So Colonial if you’re reading this, I am sorry but I feel this thing has failed you and our men and women in the fleet.

PFCEM I have saved more lives in leaky, half broke, noisy, shaky CH46’s.…

Didn’t realize that tail rotor authority was a problem for the UH-60 although do recall seeing that USAF CSAR H-60 spin and crash on Mt Hood. I had Blackhawk transition orders in 1985 but when they grounded them due to the stabilator problem, I elected to stay at Rucker rather than wait 10 months for the projected transition before going to Ft. Ord and lost the transition.

About the only challenging thing I ever did in a helicopter was fly UH-1H in the Sinai just before Desert Storm and in Germany during the Cold War…and didn’t get to fly much at that.

Sure there is a place for the V-22. And I’m sure you recall that OR rates for the AH-64A were sometimes in the 50% range.…but of course a lot of the armament and early optics were responsible for that…which is not a V-22 problem…yet.:)

It will take time to work out the tilt rotor bugs and the maintenance record will get better. The Marines apparently flew each aircraft 62–65 hours a month and maintenance per flight hour has been reduced from 24 for the CH-46 to 9.5 hrs for the V-22. Big plus!

That said, when they replaced the UH-1H with the UH-60A, I seem to recall a cost of about $6 million per aircraft…a far cry from what an F-15 cost which was being produced around the same time.

In contrast, the V-22 is half the cost of a F-22, which itself is light years more expensive than the F-15…even accounting for inflation.

So guess the point is, no matter how good the V-22 is at what it does, can we afford to buy so many of them? We stopped buying B-2s and F-22s because they simply cost too much. The V-22 is the same. With the Navy already flying H-60 variants, you would think some mix of H-60, CH-53K, and V-22 would be more cost and mission effective than an all V-22 force to replace the CH-46.

There is also the physics problem. With the smaller disc area, a tilt rotor will ever have the high altitude lift of a helicopter. So you can point to situations where a 250 knot V-22 surpasses a 170 knot CH-47. But the Army can point to multiple situations where a V-22 simply cannot function at high altitude. Seems like a wash except that one aircraft costs twice as much as the other.

Kind of gets back to that mix of expensive and less expensive aircraft and maybe a mix of EFV and some other armored vehicle the Army and Marines could share together and be flown via a shared CH-53K.

But lately it seems like the Navy and Marines get anything they want Tony, and the Army gets repeatedly screwed on acquisitions and deployments. Couldn’t have anything to do with former John Young being a former Navy undersecretary could it.;) Probably doesn’t hurt having Admiral Mullen being the Chairman, too.

Seems to me, Tony. you can make a great argument for having Marines on ships close to potential conflict areas. But that doesn’t mean you have an equally effective argument that you must have an amphibious assault capability. Landing next door in an allied or unopposed entry country could be performed just as readily.

That would allow the Marines to better design their equipment (perhaps jointly) to fight on land where they spend 99.9% of their time in combat and counterinsurgency.

Sorry I missed the $18M… so the V-22 is only four times as expensive as a UH-60M. We are getting better.

Rumor has it that the Army is starting to think about UH-60 replacement. I look at the fact that a UH-60M can’t pick up the new M777 howitzer or even up armored Hummers and I gotta think the Hawk is getting were the ol’ reliable UH-1H was.

My real point is that like all NEW aircraft it has to work through initial operations, just like every other new aircraft, like the UH-60 and the CH-47. It is expensive, just like the CH-47 and UH-60 were when they were new. Had we had internet in the late 70’s and early 80’s these arguments would be about how a UH-60 was ten times more expensive than a refurbished UH-1. Do you know how much a new UH-60M cost?

“Pathetic”…“get a grip”…“nonsense”.…“ONE V-22 broke down” (as opposed to every single one all the time)…“Big F***ing deal”…“vastly superior capabilities as a medivac vs any current helicopter” (while you later said “how absurd it is to compare them as equals/competitors”)

You are correct on that last one. There are no or few (cite otherwise) “dedicated” MEDEVAC V-22 competitors, only CASEVAC with no or little on board care/equipment.

Meanwhile, the Army has pilots, medics, equipment dedicated to the MEDEVAC mission and located at multiple FOBs closer to potential wounded Soldiers and level II aid facilities.

Please google and read “On Point II” and the articles “Following the Wounded Soldier in Iraq” and “Moving Emergency Treatment Closer to the Front Lines”

Finally, found a link that said MEDEVAC aircraft should fly at sea level or destination airfield altitude (lower the better) when carrying patients with “impaired tissue oxygenation,”“HEAD TRAUMA,” and less than 6,000′ MSL with Cardiac patients. Doesn’t sound like V-22 en route altitudes to me. I would put a slower helicopter WITH on board care up against a faster V-22 “heh you” any day.

You are correct. The two aircraft are not ocmpetitors. Suspect Soldiers would prefer four HH-60s with superb FLIR optics, pilots who know hospital and high altitude combat outpost locations, and on board medics/PAs located at four forward FOBs in northeast Afghanistan over one V-22 located at Bagram anyday…even if money was not an issue.

YOU are the one you seems to have a problem fathoming the difference between the V-22 & UH-60 and how absurd it is to compare them as equals/competators.

Then compare the costs of operation per flight hour. Not sure what that is, but suspect it is AT LEAST a 4 to 1 difference if the fuel quantities are indicative. The maintenance costs for the V-22 would always be considerably higher.

ONE V-22 broke down? You’re cracking me up dude. Why do you think the Marines are hiding its non-mission capable problems?

Do you want to compare the numbers of Soldiers saved by the V-22 to the MEDEVAC UH-60? Suspect it is a ratio of something literally like 1,000 to 1.

You’re the one fond of saying you should park the KC-X closer to the fight. Can you fathom the concept that a quick reaction UH-60 MEDEVAC aircraft parked 65 NM from the fight will reach the casualty just as fast as a technically complex, large, maintenance intensive V-22 located 130 NM from the fight where there is a large fuel supply?

Can you fathom the difference between an aircraft that uses 1400–1700 gallons per fill up (2000 for Air Force CV-22) and one that uses 360 gallons (1000 for Chinook)? Are you saying the Army should buy an aircraft that can’t fit into tight LZs to rescue the wounded and can’t pick them up from the high altitudes that are MAINSTREAM in northeast Afghanistan?

Parry, get a grip ONE V-22 broke down. Big F***ing deal. DOZENS of lives have been saved by the V-22 due to its vastly superior capabilities as a medivac vs any current helicopter.

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Cole, Please stop with the nonsense of fualting the V-22 for not being what it was never intended to be.

Not sure what you have against the UH-60L/M or what you like about the V-22 other than its speed. But consider this link:

http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/Leishman_0207_RDS.pdf

And within the link, consider footnote 10 quoted below:

“A UH-60L helicopter can lift (fuel and useful load)over 5,600lbs at a takeoff altitude of 10,000 feet versus only some 2800lbs of equivalent load for the V-22 Osprey. The UH-60L can also carry 3000lbs of useful load at this altitude to some 250 nautical miles, a feat
unmatched by the V-22.”

Now if that is true, then it sheds great light on a recent article I read where a plenty strong UH-60L unit had to defer to a CH-47D unit to conduct a mission at 11,000′ in Afghanistan…where no doubt casualties occur, and the V-22 would be ill-suited to land.

And because the Army can apparently buy a new CH-47 for $36 million or a refurbished one for $24 million, that tells me the more capable lift aircraft with 170 knot speed costs 1/3 to 1/2 of a $72+ million V-22…and uses about HALF the fuel to fill up in the FARP as well. V-22 also cost 6 times that of a the killed Bell ARH which was killed for excessive cost???

A UH-60M versus V-22 is a veritable bargain and yet has similar or better lift at high altitude. Consider the vulnerability of a V-22 climbing out to 10,000′ AGL and descending to shoulder-fired missiles and radar-guided gun threats. Consider the LZs a UH-60 can fit in to pick up casualties or drop off/pick-up troops that the V-22 wouldn’t have a prayer of squeezing into.

With on board care on a UH-60, does the speed en route make that much difference over 130 nautical miles…half an hour at most? Does having multiple quick reaction UH-60s affordably positioned in multiple places closer to the fight counteract having all the V-22s at Kandahar or one airfield in Iraq?

Consider how the V-22 loses much of its speed advantage if carrying an external load or flying low at night…which it would need to do in any kind of a radar air defense threat.

The fact is that the additional complexity of tilt rotors means that it will never be as inexpensive as a helicopter. The lack of vertical lift at high altitude where the air is less dense, will always make it a lower-altitude one trick speed pony.

Ever seen what a Growler costs to get it to fit into the 6′ wide V-22 cargo compartment?