Is F-22 Strategic Linchpin?

Is F-22 Strategic Linchpin?

The F-22 Raptor is the proxy for two opposing views of planning and preparing for current and future wars: Gates’ view, that after half a century spent building a military of unparalleled size and sophistication to fight a repeat of World War II against the Soviet Union, the Pentagon’s focus and resources should be shifted a bit to include the many small wars the U.S. tends to fight with some frequency; and the view of powerful constituencies within the defense community who believe the U.S. will one day have to battle a big powerful country such as China or Russia and in such a fight only a massive conventional arsenal will suffice. 

Like so much else in Washington, the debate over the F-22 has become theater. When on April 6 Gates said he wanted to end production of the F-22 at 187 aircraft, he told reporters that: “The military advice that I got was that there is no military requirement for numbers of F-22s beyond the 187.” 

Considering the popularity of the air-superiority fighter among so many in Congress and other constituencies, few thought the story would end there, and it didn’t. Last week the House Armed Services Committee added $369 million to the 2010 defense budget to begin building 12 more F-22s. The move would keep the fighter’s production line open indefinitely. At a press conference, Gates made it clear he was not amused by the HASC’s actions.

To read the press on this, it would appear that the Obama administration is considering unilateral disarmament that would leave the country’s air fleet gutted, inviting attacks from malicious opponents across the globe. Alarmists claim the strategic linchpin to American military might, without which the U.S. position in the world is otherwise suspect, is the F-22. 

Mark Bowden, of Blackhawk Down fame, penned a 10,000 word tribute to the F-22 in the Atlantic, of all places. He cited the 381 Air Force figure as the minimum number “independent analysts” say is needed to maintain U.S. air supremacy over a battlefield. “Without a full complement of Raptors, America’s aging fighters (F-15s) are more vulnerable, and hence more likely to be challenged,” he writes. “Countries such as Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea will be more likely to take on the U.S. Air Force if their pilots stand a fighting chance. This could well mean more air battles, more old-style aces—and more downed American pilots.” 

In Air Force Magazine, service advocate and analyst Rebecca Grant said that because the Pentagon leadership determined the nation needs fewer F-22s than the Air Force’s stated numbers, the military may no longer be able to operate under a secure air umbrella in future wars. “Potential adversaries must be smiling at the prospect of the United States unilaterally giving up on one of its greatest military advantages.”

The Lexington Institute’s Loren Thompson writes: “Command of the air is the central, indispensable mission of the F-22… Our enemies cannot see the plane with their radars, and they cannot catch it with their fighters. They are defenseless against it, and will remain so for decades to come.” He says that only the F-22 will allow future air campaigns without “fear of horrendous losses.” 

Tom Donnelly and Gary Schmitt of the right wing American Enterprise Institute went for the jobs argument in campaigning for more F-22s: “If he decides to terminate the F-22, Obama will, in effect, be firing the 25,000 people who directly work on the Raptor program (and the initial “stop-work” orders and layoffs would begin within months) and perhaps another 50,000 to 75,000 in the supplier base that supports it.” 

The award for most hyperbolic argument must go to the well known Australian F-22 advocate Carlos Kapp. “If the US wishes to retain the deterrent capability it has enjoyed since 1991, it has no choice than to build and deploy up to 750 F-22 Raptors, with a bare bones minimum of around 500–600 F-22 aircraft for a credible strategic effect,” he writes. He then spells out the list of horribles that will result if the Obama administration buys fewer F-22s: lost aircraft and dead pilots; Obama’s drive for integrity in public service governance and management; the administration’s credibility on efforts to stimulate the economy (he cites Donnelly and Schmitt’s editorial); and the U.S. aerospace industry. Deterring Iran and even Venezuela is dependent on buying enough F-22s. 

The oddest thing about this whole debate is that it’s not about whether or not to develop and produce the admittedly impressive air-superiority fighter. That has already happened. The F-22 is operational and current plans are to build the final of 187 Raptors by 2011. The argument F-22 advocates make is that 187 is not enough and that only by buying more Raptors will strategic catastrophe be avoided in what has become the ultimate “bean counting” game, conjuring memories of measuring the NATO vs. Warsaw Pact balance, with the difference, of course, that no adversary currently exists to bean count against. 

A story last week on Congressional Quarterly’s site said that Gen. John Corley, chief of Air Combat Command at Langley, Va., wrote to Senator Saxby Chambliss, R– Ga., saying that building only 187 F-22s would jeopardize U.S. national security. Corley reportedly said 381 F-22s would be the ideal number but that a fleet of 250 fighters would be tolerable. The Air Force, and other F-22 advocates, have pinned the need for a larger F-22 fleet on what has ostensibly been a cornerstone of Pentagon planning: the need to prepare to wage two major and simultaneous conventional wars. As we’ve reported for some weeks and the New York Times confirms today, the two major conventional war planning construct is being jettisoned in the forthcoming QDR. 

That leaves the F-22 as a strategic deterrent argument, one that has a few holes in it. For example, if the stealthy fighter truly deters potential adversaries, then one must ask the question why a couple dozen Raptors are not a credible deterrent but 500 of them are? The Israeli Air Force operates 328 F-16 and F-15 fighter and strike aircraft, of which 75 percent are operationally ready at any given time, according to figures compiled by Anthony Cordesman. If the Israeli Air Force truly deters its hostile neighbors from launching a conventional attack, then it does so with a couple hundred operational aircraft, all of which are fourth generation. 

Some F-22 advocates say that next generation Russian built SAMs of the triple digit variety, S-300 and S-400, are so advanced, that the stealthy F-22 will be the only aircraft able to operate against them. If the new, Russian built SAM systems are as capable as some claim, then perhaps we should take a page from the asymmetric warrior handbook and subject nations who want to buy them to a cost imposition strategy. Building a large fleet of inexpensive drones that could still carry a lethal payload and salvo launching them at an enemy’s air defense system would seem to be a better approach than sending in an incredibly expensive fighter, and far less risky to any pilots. Desire aside, few countries have the economic wherewithal to buy and operate the Russian built SAM systems and top of the line fighter aircraft.

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“Gen. John Corley, chief of Air Combat Command at Langley, Va., wrote to Senator Saxby Chambliss, R– Ga., saying that building only 187 F-22s would jeopardize U.S. national security. Corley reportedly said 381 F-22s would be the ideal number but that a fleet of 250 fighters would be tolerable.”

Will strategic catastrophe be avoided a fleet of 247?

“Building a large fleet of inexpensive drones that could still carry a lethal payload and salvo launching them at an enemy’s air defense system would seem to be a better approach than sending in an incredibly expensive fighter, and far less risky to any pilots.”

The Israelis did this with great effect.

How to determine an “ideal” or a “minimum” number is an art and not a science!

My guess is that the AF wants as many as they could get — and the 381 number was some multiple of squadrons plus some training, development, attrition, etc. If someone offered them 382 or 383 or … They would NOT turn them down!

It is hard to justify the F-22 based on “needs” since any air campaign would be preceded by cruise missiles and would be accompanied by UAVs and the (stealthy) F-35. Even today, there are people talking about buying NOT more sophisticated aircraft — but unsophisticated armored crop dusters to do ground attack. We have seen (at the Paris air show) some rumblings even between the F-22 and F-35 advocates — as the US Air Force generals spar among themselves over the capabilities of “their” aircraft. 

And to support jobs — any aircraft purchases would do that. Additional C-17s would be as good for employment (maybe people would have to move from Fort Worth to Marietta) as would be F-22s or F-35s. 

The bottom line for most line aircrew is how many airframes could you get for the money? More airframes means more flexibility. An aircraft that is twice as capable still could not be in two places at one time! Perhaps the best buy would be two aircraft that are half as capable (each) as the F-22? More airframes mean more squadrons and squadron commanders and maintenance guys and… The F-22 comes out badly in that analysis since it is so enormously expensive.

Maybe one should consider the possibility that Obama and Gates analyzed America’s ability to lead another arms race with China or Russia and concludes that we would lose such a race. Further, do we really think that China’s radar development would stagnate given a more aggressive stealth aircraft investment by the US, as Loren Thompson implies? Do we really believe that the F-22’s air superiority will be maintained for decades to come?

Or maybe it’s quite the opposite conclusion that drives the vocal proponents of the F-22: that it is not vastly superior to enemy technology and that any war fought against our largest enemies would likely result a high F-22 loss rate.

Colonel Phillips makes the point regarding costs. We have to get to a point in budget and procurement discussions that doesn’t always fade into “.…threatens national security…” It’s a bad argument and undermines the case for more F-22s. No nation, especially the size and scope of the US is going to be protecting itself or its assets with only a few hundred planes. It takes the entire military to determine what the best course for protecting the country. And I trust the analysis that right now, and in the not too distant future, we probably don’t need more of them.

When Carter killed the B-1, he killed it because analysts said it was too expensive to be built in numbers large enough to make a different in a major shooting war. Analysts also said it needed more powerful engines.

Both of those analysis were correct as it turns out. We built 100 B-1s and only 67 are still flying. In a major shooting war with China or Russia, would 67 planes be enough to get the job done? Probably not. But then we have so many more weapons to use that the questions about national security have to be asked with all the armed forces in mind, not just fighters.

The bottom line I believe is that we will now have to start looking at cost more closely. The F-22 is prohibitively expensive. We have more need for MRAPs and Strykers, and probably will need more of these as well continue to occupy the Mideast. 

Daniel

Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup.com

381 F-22s would provide one F-22 squadron per Air Expeditionary Force [AEF]. That is a perfectly rational analysis that never gets enough attention.

I also don’t understand why the Air Force doesn’t discuss the ramifications of fewer than one F-22 squadron per AEF. Oh wait, nevermind, I remember now.

They aren’t allowed to discuss that in public.

Well, Gates didn’t help the debate by lying to the public. There has been plenty of military advice saying there was a requirement for more than 187 F-22s. Gates kept those voices out of the room so he could claim he was just following “independent” advice. So Gates being a bald-faced liar doesn’t help.

Add the fact that Gates works for that corru,pt hard-left weasel Obama, and it’s understandable why so many Americans are willing to fight the administration on this. Obama is systematically dismantling the American military-industrial complex. Why? Because Obama thinks it does more evil than good … and also because he wants the money to pay off his cronies in the name of “justice”.

jim, Gates has been around the block, lest you forget that most of his career in Washington was spent with republican administrations.

The idea of deterence cracks me up.
Just who is a force of fighter jets supposed to deter from doing what?
Who honestly believes that with all the tools of war we have at our disposal, and all the conflicts that our war machine hasn’t detered, that yet another hi tech tool is going to prevent near peer powers from acting in their own interests.
Propaganda and fear are GREAT weapons to use right here at home and get better results in achieving goals than do the latest and greatest systems we field. smdh.

F-22 deters the big boys and small fries from waging an air war against us. But 187 when spread out over the globe gets mighty thin. And 187 is supposed to be 30 — 40 years in the inventory. Subtract the ones that are in the training command, undergoing maint checks, and in depot from the 187. Cancel a few from inventory due to mishaps. Now what remains is supposed to replace the 500 or so active F-15’s currently in the fleet. Now someone tell me what the world will look like in 2040 and who the enemy will be? That’s a little hard, isn’t it. Okay, go back 30 years to 1970. Hmmm, that was Vietnam and the US was throwing everything it had to half heartedly defeat the North Vietnamese. They had a very small airforce but a lot of missiles. They downed 100’s of US jets. I don’t think we would put up with 58,000 deaths of which 1,000’s would be pilots and aircrew. Enough said!!!

The problem is that one person’s crucial national defense system is another’s pork barrel. Gates has to make cuts and he did. If McCain was in the White House, he’d be making cuts. It’s reality and, while it hurts, it has to be done. Myself I’d like to see more C-17s because I don’t believe we’ve ever had too much airlift. But that’s one person’s opinion.
Unfortunately the F-22 has become a weapon system/jobs program. There are good reasons to build more… And there are good reasons not to build more… I think Gates (possibly the most impressive Bush cabinet member) is looking at the situation and realizing that, while there are risks, decisions have to be made and it’s his job to make them. At least he has the intestinal fortitude to stand up and say so.

JSF Mike betrays his own system (or believes LockMart/USAF should get ALL the money)by saying:“F-22 deters the big boys and small fries from waging an air war against us.
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reply: Sorry, the thought of mutual assured destruction deters the big boys and one-sided destruction deters the small fries…one-sided by a whole bunch of joint capability beyond F-22s ill-suited to many kinds of ground attack and wholly unsuited to counterinsurgency.
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JSF Mike continues:“But 187 when spread out over the globe gets mighty thin. And 187 is supposed to be 30 — 40 years in the inventory. Subtract the ones that are in the training command, undergoing maint checks, and in depot from the 187. Cancel a few from inventory due to mishaps. Now what remains is supposed to replace the 500 or so active F-15’s currently in the fleet.“
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reply: Here’s an idea. Deploy each AEF for 5 months every 20 months and reduce AEF quantities to 8. You will still deploy far less than the Army/Marines/Navy. Eight x 20 F-22s = 160. 

Buy the 12 F-22s, don’t wreck the rest practicing obsolete yank-and-bank and do that in a quality simulator (which would be higher fidelity with a helmet mounted cueing system they don’t have), and cut back on training and R&D birds.
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JSF Mike said:“They downed 100’s of US jets. I don’t think we would put up with 58,000 deaths of which 1,000’s would be pilots and aircrew. Enough said!!!“
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reply: And they downed thousands of helicopters, killing far more gutsy Army/Marine helicopter pilots/crews not afraid to fly low/slow to support ground guys…just as far more helicopter pilots have died in current conflicts performing unescapable, essential battlefield support regardless of the risk.

Do you seriously want to compare the likelihood of death, injury, and maiming between ground forces and a USAF “handicapped” by being forced to conduct a VERY short air supremacy campaign against VERY few quality adversary fighters and air defenses with the F-35?????

Seems to me what we have now has not really detered many other than the WWIII scenario. MAD doesn’t apply to conventional conflicts as we would not use them and everyone knows it. That is unless someone used first. The threat of one sided destruction did not deter Iran in 1979, Saddam in 1990, The DPRK ever (but that is just rattling our chain excluding 1950), The NVA in the 60s, and so forth. Logic doesn’t always enter into the equation. 

8 AEF math is too simple. 160 aircraft needed for 8 AEFs, but total force would need to be about 240–250 to account for traing and schedule/unscheduled maitenance. To have a 240 acft deployable force for 10 AEFs would require the 381 number so I use a ratio of approximately 2 to 1. Of course that may be where the 247 ‘moderate risk’ number comes from. 

Simulators can only go so far. To be proficient, you must fly the plane the way you will fight with the plane. While high Gs can be kept to a minimum, it will still need to be done. Training is one area you do NOT want to cut back on. We did that in the mid-late 70s and it showed. 

Truth is we have no idea what force we could face in 10–15 years, a period where legacy airframes will be all but worn out or gone and very few F-35s will be in the force. The entire F-35 production run is slated for 25+ years and peak production not for about another 6–7 at best. I look at it this way. What was the visable threat in 1910? 1932? 1945? 1955? We were ill-prepared for WWI, WWII, Korea, and SEA because the belief was the scenarios we ended up with would not happen. We were ready for the Storm because we planned and practiced for the event. We didn’t do well at Desert 1 or Grenada because we didn’t practice it enough with the right equipment and personnel. Panama went OK. 

If it takes another 60–80 F-22s to hedge our bets, I am all for it. 

While Gates and Young (who has NEVER liked the F-22) may think one way and force structure, professional airmen think another and believe and testified to a higher number. And do not forget the original ATF/F-22 buy was to be 750 or so airframes. The 381 number has always been post Cold War. There has NEVER been a study quantifying the 187 (or even 199) F-22s as sufficient. 

I am not saying buy the F-22 in lieu of the F-35, but buy enough to have a viable force. 

While the F-22 may not currently have a HMCS, at least we have F-22s. The F-35 is yet to be proven. I’m sure it will be a good multi-purpose acft, but it has to get built, trained on, and matured first.

The Pentagon’s focus & resources haven’t been spent to fight a repeat of World War II against the Soviet Union since Dec 1989. Enough with the “we still have a cold war military” BS! In our “Cold War military” we were supposed to get 750 F-22s.

Gates is flat out lying about “The military advice that I got was that there is no military requirement for numbers of F-22s beyond the 187.” He fied two of the most vocal military advisors for daring to speak out publicly about the need for more than 187. In fact I bet the on “military advise” Gates got “that there is no military requirement for numbers of F-22s beyond the 187” was from John Young who has had an axe to grind against the F-22 program ever since he was turned down for a job in it.

Also remember that even if the USAF got the 381 F-22 is needs MINIMUM for low risk, it STILL needs to somehow find a way to keep 186 F-15C “Golden Eagle” combat worthy well beyond 2025…And no the need for 381 F-22s is not based on fighting Russia or China.

sw614 thoughtfully played the history card and said: 

“Truth is we have no idea what force we could face in 10–15 years.…I look at it this way. What was the visable threat in 1910? 1932? 1945? 1955? We were ill-prepared for WWI, WWII, Korea, and SEA because the belief was the scenarios we ended up with would not happen.“
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Comparison of the sorry state of yesteryear joint forces with the exceptional condition of our forces today is illogical.

Complaining that 187 F-22s is insufficient and strategically dangerous is flawed when we never built more than 60 or so F-117, 21 B-2s, and 100 or so B-1’s…but I’m sure we heard similar whining back then. Somehow we won several wars against tough opponents with those low numbers. 

We place several aircraft categories outside the AEF structure due to insufficient numbers. Why not the F-22? 120 massed F-22s can handle any threat when combined with other air/ground/sea defenses. But the claimed overhead/crash spare needs are still a big part of the problem.

We also must consider that while the Russians bore the brunt of early WWII…it was our manufacturing (not theirs) that made their defense possible. In the Korean War our Sabres were grossly outnumbered by similar MiG-15s yet brave U.S. airmen still prevailed. When we bought 750 F-15s, the Soviets had 7000 aircraft. 

Today, we would face neither the numbers nor the quality that airmen faced in Korea or Cold Warriors COULD have faced were it not for MAD and tripwire ground forces in Europe.

I checked to confirm, and with the exception of Pakistan at around $7.8 billion annually, every other potential foe (assuming a rogue regime took charge of Pakistan) except China and Russia are LESS THAN THAT. We are spending over $600 billion annually and can barely afford these fighters.…how would they? 

South Korea and Japan grossly outspend North Korea and together match or surpass China before adding Australia. Yet Japan only wants 40 or 50 F-22s if they could buy them. If Russia spent 15 years of its annual defense budget…it would finally match our single year figure!

How could Russian and China possibly buy lots of $100 million stealth fighters on their budgets? It isn’t like WWII or Korea or even Vietnam where a fighter’s cost was reasonable and quantity was affordable.

If the F-22 IS a deterrent, it is because no nation can afford to match it…so they don’t even try, and go the rocket/missile, nuke, and terror route instead.

One of Greg’s cited articles is the “Atlantic” one that was in part about the last “ace” who actually wasn’t one with just 3 kills. Despite numerous wars in the past 20 years, we have had no aces. Unlike the massed air battles of yesteryear, the bad guys were often destroyed on the ground or fled to other countries or made a lame effort and bailed out. 

If they were afraid then, and we could attack their airfields, fighters, and air defenses WITHOUT STEALTH, how badly would we maul them today.

Complaining that the F-35 isn’t up to task is like complaining that you have to go into a college bowl game, with the bad guys fielding a college football team with lots of injuries and little depth while you ONLY have a play-off NFL pro team (F-35)instead of the superbowl winner (F-22). Oh wait, I forgot. We can field pro players from BOTH teams.

Cole — you are mistaking my point of view with complaining, it is not. I am not advocating 381 (be nice but not going to happen) or 750 F-22s, especially if the 2 MRC requirement goes away in the next QDR. I actually used your own numbers in coming up with 250 airframes. And I was not comparing forces per se, but attitudes. We have been down this road before and everytime we took the ‘it will not happen’ attitude, it did happen and we were not ready for it. Resting on our laurels can have disaterous results and your argument is exactly that, going on what we already did. And what do you know of our force status 30–40 yeras ago? Judging from your statement absolutely nothing. 

F-22s go in AEFs because they are the air superiority airframe of the future. It is offensive, not defensive. It is meant to carry the fight to the enemy’s territory and control that space for as long as we want to, not wait for him to come to us. This is so the strike acft and mud movers can do their thing. Those other ‘defensive’ systems you mentioned are meaningless in offensive operations. Cope India showed that F-15s can be matched under more than a few scenarios. 

Comparing us to Japan is not correct as their constitution forbids offensive deployments so they do not need a deployable force and they also know we will be there for them. In some situations, they may not be able to be there for us. 

Take another look, fighters do not cost $100+million in China and Russia. Direct number comparison of budgets is also misleading as it doesn’t point out our world-wide commitments and all the associated costs, quality of life for service members, retirement programs, medical, etc.

We have no where near the manufacturing base we had in 1940/1941. I was not a fan of SecDef Rumsfeld, but his statement on going to war with the army you have was spot on. 

So I guesss your analysis is more insightful than those with 4 stars and have been looking at this problem for years? Why did the Iraqis flee in 2003? Because they were outclassed and knew it and remembered 1991. Well, the planes that outclassed them are aging out and the F-35 is too far out to fill the gap. Our “exceptional forces” are starting to have aging equipment issues and they will get worse. I have BTDT and know for certain. Do you? The older a system gets the longer it takes to turn it around for another mission, simple fact of maintenance and flying. 

The F-117 was always meant as a silver bullet first generation LO acft; it was an experiment/proof of concept program that gave very good service for 25 years.

The ATB/B-2 was to be 300 acft, then 132, then 75, 48, and finally 21. Purely a budgetary decision, not one from an operational or requirements point of view. Only 100 B-1Bs were purchased because of the projected B-2 buys. I was in SAC (Loring AFB) when the decision was made and there was no whining. We just continued on fixing our then 25 year old B-52D/Gs and KC-135As. Were you there? If anyone is whining it is you with the F-35 is here to save the day cries and resorting to calling others whiners.

You say the Soviets had 7000 acft but only mention our F-15s. Why? Why not mention all of ours too? The information as you presented it is self serving. 

Attacking airfields and what is needed depends on whose airfield it is. I do not think Iranian airfields will go as quickly as Iraqi one did, but you never know. Befor OIF we had been prepping the battlefield for 12 years.

Where have I said the F-35 was not up to the task? I never did. I said it will probably be a good acft, but as of right now, and for the next 6–7 years, IT IS UNPROVEN! The F-35 will NOT be in service in sufficient numbers for at least 12–15 years. (It takes a couple of years AFTER IOC to be real proficient with the airframe, both in the air and on the ground. You seem to think we just jump in and drive) What do we do until then? Buy more F-15s? We have to do something as the ones we have are wearing out and the newest ones (F-15Es of which we only bought 217) are now midlife airframes. 

As I said before we need another 60+ F-22s and to speed up F-35 procurement to at least 144 per year to avoid projected fighter shortfalls. With the USN finding thatb they can only get another 600 hours over 8000 out of their F/A-18C/Ds, the problem just became acute.

Since the F-35’s won’t be in full service till about 2013–2015, would you guy’s support the notion of buying F-15SE’s to fight the fighter gap for the next 5–6 years??

In my opinion, they should stop the F-22 production at 240, and start building 200 F-15SE’s until we have 250 F-35’s in service.

By the way, to the people who keep bringing up Obama. The truth is, Obama doesn’t even know the difference between the F-22 and F-35. Obama even said it himself, he wants Gates to handle all of the work for the DoD. If you want to blame someone on the fighter, put the blame on Mr. Gates…

Who, ironically, was made DoD for President Bush.

Good comments sw614, but.…

you said: “Cole — you are mistaking my point of view with complaining, it is not. I am not advocating 381 (be nice but not going to happen) or 750 F-22s, especially if the 2 MRC requirement goes away in the next QDR.”
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reply: Didn’t mean to imply that you specifically were complaining. Clearly, though, many in the USAF are fixated on more F-22s and the greater perceived capabilities it has while the Navy/Marine Top Guns seem content with the F-35 and more F/A-18E/F/Gs.

The USAF acts like they are in the fight alone while OIF showed otherwise. Just 42 F-15Cs participated in the OIF air superiority mission…so what scenario requires more than 120 deployable F-22s? Meanwhile the Navy deployed 250 F/A-18 variants and 56 air superiority F-14s. 

Given the land real estate concerns in any China/North Korea scenario and the threat of missile targeting of land airfields, you would certainly expect a similar quantity of Naval aircraft participating in the air superiority and strike portion of any unlikely China conflict.

Kudos to Frank Kaplan’s 2003 article “Bombing by Numbers” for providing a link to real-world data for OIF.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2003/uscentaf_oif_report_30apr2003.pdf

Only 14.1% of OIF sorties were counterair (favoring F-22) while 50.7% were air-to-ground (favoring F-35) to support ground troops and C2 targets etc. 

Total USAF fighters deployed to OIF were just 293 (of which 60 were A-10s) while the Navy anted up 232 and the Marines 130fighters. Just 42 F-15C, 48 F-15E, and 60 F-16s and 71 F-16 CJs were in the fight. In contrast, the Navy/marines came up with 250 F/A-18s and 56 F-14s (F-35 in future).
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sw 614:“F-22s go in AEFs because they are the air superiority airframe of the future. It is offensive, not defensive. It is meant to carry the fight to the enemy’s territory and control that space for as long as we want to, not wait for him to come to us. This is so the strike acft and mud movers can do their thing. Those other ‘defensive’ systems you mentioned are meaningless in offensive operations.”
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reply: Guess I don’t understand why the few F-117s and B-2s would not be offensive aircraft used to strike enemy airfields and SAM sites to win the short air supremacy war. With the F-117 gone, the F-22 and F-35 are natural replacements…and both will exist in far greater numbers than either older scarcer stealth aircraft. Just 4 B-2s and 12 F-117s were used in OIF so suspect we would do better than that even in early F-22/F-35 fielding.

In fact with 120 deployable F-22s, you might expect half to provide counterair and half to attack SAM sites and airfields independently or while escorting B-2 bombers. Even early in F-35 fielding you could expect 120 deployable F-35 aircraft from both USAF and Navy/Marines. 

Those numbers, when added to newer F/A-18s and F-15Es would certainly seem adequate given the OIF precedent and its greater use of precision munitions which meant fewer overall attack sorties are required compared to Desert Storm.

Carl Conetta in his 26 Sept 2003 study said: “One third as many fighter and bomber sorties were flown in OIF as in ODS and only 13 percent as many air-delivered munitions were used. However, the proportion of guided weapons was much higher — 67 percent versus 6.5 percent”

Bottom line is that precision munitions allow a smaller air component to achieve the same or greater levels of destruction. Thousands of fighters and bombers dropping dumb munitions are not required anymore. Thus the air superiority escorts and CAPs can be smaller.
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sw614:“Comparing us to Japan is not correct as their constitution forbids offensive deployments so they do not need a deployable force and they also know we will be there for them. In some situations, they may not be able to be there for us.”
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reply: Given that we deployed U.S troops to Israel to operate our X-Band missile defense radar there, couldn’t a similar relationship be worked out with Japan? Let them pay for the F-22s and let their pilots fly most of them and command the unit. But attach some USAF pilots and have all the maintenance and physical control on the ground be under USAF and LockMart personnel.
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sw614 said:“Take another look, fighters do not cost $100+ million in China and Russia. Direct number comparison of budgets is also misleading as it doesn’t point out our world-wide commitments and all the associated costs, quality of life for service members, retirement programs, medical, etc.“
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reply: I might concede that a Su-35 wouldn’t cost that much. However, a PAK FA probably would cost nearly $100 billion given the stealth. Obviously that’s a billion $ per 10 aircraft not counting parts and operation and support costs. Tankers? AWACS? Munitions? The Russians also have other military commitments and less money to accomplish them. 

Believe the Indians are beginning to tire of the quality control and engine problems of Russian fighters. Brasil recently declined a Russian offer. Does anyone really think we need to fear a few Columbian Russian fighters? 

If India does stick with Russia in producing new aircraft, neither nation has a history of completing programs on time or budget. Meanwhile, we our building close relationships with the Indians in the business world (my company included).
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sw614: “We have no where near the manufacturing base we had in 1940/1941.”
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reply: True, but our prospects for continued fighter production with the F-35 are far greater than those of many European fighter programs. It’s hard to have much sympathy for LockMart workers when many could simply move and transition to a new long-term job.
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sw614:“Why did the Iraqis flee in 2003? Because they were outclassed and knew it and remembered 1991. Well, the planes that outclassed them are aging out and the F-35 is too far out to fill the gap. Our “exceptional forces” are starting to have aging equipment issues and they will get worse.”
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reply: Agreed, but would we not still have 120 F-22s outclassing any conceivable opponent while the F-35 numbers build up? Are there not many newer F/A-18E/F/G and still over 200 F-15Es? 

The number of future air-to-air engagements will decrease if history is any precedent. While there were 190 air-to-air kills in Vietnam and 261 in the 173 Yom Kippur War where average quality F-4s were involved, the advent of modern fighters, radars, and missiles has made us a more formidable foe. 

With the fielding of the F-15/16, there were just 77 kills by Israel in the 82 Bekaa Valley conflict and just 41 in Desert Storm and even fewer in Serbia and OIF. No F-15/F-16 has ever been lost in air-to-air conflict and the enemy knows it. 

Why do we anticipate new found bravery/success against our stealth future fighters with their far superior radars and missiles? Do we not still train and get more flight hours than our potential foes?
=================================
sw614 said:“The F-117 was always meant as a silver bullet first generation LO acft; it was an experiment/proof of concept program that gave very good service for 25 years.
The ATB/B-2 was to be 300 acft, then 132, then 75, 48, and finally 21. Purely a budgetary decision, not one from an operational or requirements point of view.“
==================================
reply: “The F-22 decision is largely budgetary. The USAF cannot expect unlimited funding to field Cold War numbers PLUS a 99% solution in risk reduction and combat effectiveness against largely hypothetical threats, when thousands of ground troops are dying/maimed against real-world long-war ground threats with only 85% equipment solutions.
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sw614:“You say the Soviets had 7000 acft but only mention our F-15s. Why? Why not mention all of ours too? The information as you presented it is self serving.“
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reply: 2,230 USAF F-16s? But it looks like nearly 800 were built after the Cold War and there were more like around 500 in the first half of the 80s. The rest of our fighter fleet was F-14s and older Navy/Marine fighters, just as the sea services will continue to round out the air superiority/strike force in the future.
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sw614:“Attacking airfields and what is needed depends on whose airfield it is. I do not think Iranian airfields will go as quickly as Iraqi one did, but you never know. Before OIF we had been prepping the battlefield for 12 years.“
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reply: Presume we have been prepping lots of battlefields in peacetime. Are you that confident in grounded Iranian F-14s and capability to operate Russian air defenses given the recent Syrian experience with Israeli fighters?
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sw614:“Where have I said the F-35 was not up to the task? I never did. I said it will probably be a good acft, but as of right now, and for the next 6–7 years, IT IS UNPROVEN! The F-35 will NOT be in service in sufficient numbers for at least 12–15 years.“
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reply: Much of the F-35 R&D came from the F-22! Isn’t that adequately proven? There is no threat that our current forces cannot handle in the next 12–15 years. The Russians have 15 Su-35. If they build 15 PAK FA or Su-35s each year over the next ten years they will still have fewer aircraft than we have F-22s. China’s aircraft in greatest numbers are also aging or obsolete. And they have the unfortunate geography that makes it easy for our Navy/Marine fighters to support any effort, not to mention Aegis/SA-3 and Patriot.
==========================================
sw6114:“You seem to think we just jump in and drive. What do we do until then?”
==========================================
Jump in and drive F-22s, Golden Eagles, F/A-18E/F/Gs, and newer F-16s. Suspect those F-15Es would be no slouch either. How is it that we have managed to avoid fighting the Russians/Chinese for 60 years now and we are suddenly going to have war with them in the next decade to 15 years?

The Chinese have economic connections with us that far outweigh any desire to seize Taiwan…and Taiwan may well acquiesce to the mainland on their own.

USN is content with F/A-18E/F because that is all they have. The USN pulled out of the ATF program because they felt it would take too long and cost too much to navalize the F-22. The F-14 is gone replaced by the SuperBugs. 

It is not that the USAF feels it is alone in the fight, it is that one of the core USAF taskings/missions is air superiority. What they are looking at is not quite enough F-22 to fill taskings as they see them. They are not looking for unlimited funding, just funding to meet the taskings given to them. The majority of military planning is done in the hypothetical be it USAF, USN, USMC, or USA. It is not the USAF that put ground troops in the equipment situation they are in. It was poor planning and procurement in the 90s and early 2000s that did that. 

Am aware of OIF numbers. How do they compare to ODS as far as aircraft deployed? We went into OIF knowing that the Iraqis could not mount determined air-to-air campaign. It is dangerous to construct/equip units going by last conflict. It is just as dangerous to go into a battle assuming that since country “X” did not operate their equipment properly the country “Y” will be just as inept. That gets people killed. As is assuming that there will be no threat. Hope you are correct. 

Yes, our aircraft have become a formidable foe over the years but the rest of the world has caught up. The possible threat scenarios no longer focus on just Mig-21s and a few MiG-29s, it is about very good 4th generation acft that can be bought. That is why 5th generation acft are being fielded. My point is it will be years before the F-35 will be deployable in large numbers. The F-15 and F-16 came about as a result of how poorly the F-4 did in the A-to-A role. Less sophisticated Mig-19s and Mig-21s gave them a hard time, albeit as much to tactics as to equipment. 

The arrangement scenario you out forth between us and Japan, I feel, is unlikely as I do not see another country giving up that much control over assets they purchased or allowing them to be used in anything other than their direct defense. Ties our hands, and theirs, somewhat. 

The F-35 as a complete weapons system is unproven. All the preproduction testing is not even done yet. And it is not just testing. It is training both aircrew and ground personnel. Everyone has to get used to and familiar with their new equipment. That is ground handling, electrical systems, avionic systems, airframe systems, engines, weapons loading, etc. No small task. 

It is not just the Su-35 or PAK FA, it is very good Su30/33s and J-10s and J-11s that have to be outclassed. They are very good 4th generation airframes that are available, or will be/could be available, in decent numbers. I am not a fan of parity, I want total domination as we have enjoyed in the last few decades. F-15s can not provide that to the same level anymore. As far as first look, first shot, first kill goes, other acft being produced now equal our in every way. 

I never said we are going to fight Russia or China, but their equipment is another matter. Heck, we may even end up fighting our own equipment. 

Getting AEGIS and close enough to be a part of the action will expose the ships to attack. Anti Ship missiles have the range of the Standards.

I am not a strategic specialists but I have seen first hand “just a sample” of what the F-15E can do. It has more range and operational payload than any fighter in the world and I will bet my retirement check that if configured in air to air mode, it can hold it’s own if not dominate any top of the line Russian or Chineese acft. It can provide the theater commander with a blanket of diverse mission profiles. This is proven fact. I won’t mention the mission capable rate of the F-22 here but it’s nowhere near that of the F-15E. That system is a maintenance nightmare and I doubt it can even perform in a desert environment. It’s 100 million dollars cheaper than the 22.….…Given the fact our country is slogging through what is nothing short of a FININCIAL CRISIS.……our DOD needs to adapt to the world threat and get the most bang for our buck what ever the weapon system is.

I am sorry that it took me so long to make any comments on this thread but I had to make sure that there were no nerds operating here. Now that I see that I am the only one I figure that it is safe to write.
Ok is this what people in the US military today call thinking outside the box? A subcommittee of our central committee drafted the following response for me to post here as they were busy tending to other business.
Not only should the US military be satisfied with the F-15 it should be more than satisfied with 4 nuclear aircraft carriers and 3 carrier air wings. Of the other 7 (or is it now 8?) nuclear attack carriers that the US has 3 should be offered to China to purchase at the same price that the US paid for them plus inflation. Two should be offered to the Russians, one to the Indians, and one to the European Union all complete with aircraft of course.
The leaders of any country who wish to make their country in to the world’s most powerful are fools for leaders who do not deserve to be in charge of a kindergarten. Leaders who want to be in charge of a long lasting republic would serve their country best by attempting to make their country the 5th most powerful in the world. Why the 5th most powerful country? Simply because it seems that people who work for the US DOD seem to have a thing for the number 5. Building trust is also a big help. Keep it simple stupid. (Hey Colin that is not an insult directed at someone it is just a reminder of an old saying.)
These remarks have been channeled by BuddhalovesPaine from Truus Coster, Fake Ploeg,
Jean Valjean, Sydney Carton, and Emmanuelle Tischbein.
Come on people lets get serious and quit playing make believe!
Jedd Huber is responsible for all spelling mistakes in the above post.

Cole,

Our potential foes certainly can’t match us fighter for fighter, which is precisely why they invest heavily in air defense, especially the Russians who for decades, and still to this day, have made the premier air defense weapons in the world.

The Chinese are developing their own advanced air defense systems, likely by reverse engineering the Russian ones they have bought over the years, that will be exported as well. With the proliferation of advanced Russian and Chinese surface-to-air weapons and the modernization of integrated air defense systems in countries that we might go to war with, there is certainly a much higher demand for an aircraft that will be able to penetrate these denied areas while also being able to efficiently handle all 4th and 4+ gen aircraft for the next decade or two, and eventually foreign 5th gen aircraft.

F-117s and B-2s were/are not multi-role fighters and therefor there wasn’t as much demand for large numbers of them. At the time, our F-14s, F-15s and even F/A-18s were our air superiority fighters and they were more than enough for today’s threats, and we certainly had all of those in large numbers. In the first gulf war, the F-117s were way overworked and flew many more sorties/hours within time frames that they were not designed for.

Do I think 187 F-22s is enough for MOST potential conflicts, assuming they are at least as capable as we all believe they are? Absolutely. For all potential conflicts? No way. Using OIF as a standard for deciding if 187 F-22s is enough isn’t really fair either — we had already decimated Iraqis air force in the first gulf war and they didn’t forget about that, but our F-15s and F-18s might not do so well against a 1990 Iraqi-sized airforce with 2020+ aircraft and air defenses. 

Of course, this is is a cost-benefit thing — we would like to have 1000 F-22s if possible but money isn’t infinite. In any case, I don’t think it’s fair to look at previous conflicts and say “see, we only needed this many F117s or F-15s to do this much, so how would we ever need more F-22s?”. The military landscape for wars fought by the F-22 will be much different than it was for our 4th gen fighters and bombers.

Alex: “decimated” is actually the correct term; we didn’t really destroy very much of the Iraqi Air Force. Most of it stayed on the ground (or, in some cases, under the ground.)

Is 6 Sqdrns enough? When will the JSF be ready? Should we have more F-22’s? To maintain air-superiority, I think so. Iam not a pilot, but I do know that its a helluva lot easier on the ground when you know the skies are yours. 187 sounds low. Wat are the capabilities of the F-15SE? The big problem seems to be defeating modern air defenses. In ’91 we used AH-64’s to blow a hole in Iraqi defenses. I think UAV’s, U-CAV’s, with a mixture of manned aircraft could defeat most systems. SEAD can be carried out by manned aircraft, can the same mission be carried out by unmanned? We do still use HARM missles, don’t we?

“How could Russian and China possibly buy lots of $100 million stealth fighters on their budgets?”

Compare the price of an SU-30MKM to an F-15E Strike Eagle. 2 very comparable platforms, and if anything the SU-30MKMs are better due to the effect of canards and thrust vectoring, coupled with high off-boresight missiles (Dean would lose his retirement cheque). 

But the SU-30MKM costs about half as much: $50–60 million vs. $110–120 million for F-15K/SG orders recently. Less sophisticated SU-30MKs cost less than the MKMs, and have proven to be very popular exports. Take a look some time and see who’s flying them around the world.

Asking why that cost differential exists would be an intelligent question. 

But asking “How will the Russians afford a similar aircraft” betrays a certain ignorance. Especially in an environment where the global economy picks up, and oil/gas prices head through the roof again. As they must, given new finds that aren’t keeping pace with growing demand.

The PAK-FA co-development with India will be fielded. And the contingencies you have to think about are all 20 years away, because American weapon development programs take that long from concept to production.

(Asking why that is, in light of the way it forces the USA to gamble on higher and higher tech, is also a very intelligent question.)

JSF is known to have compromised stealth from the side and rear, much less maneuverability, and loses the “supercruise” capability that lets F-22s engage or disengage almost at will with other fighters, who have to work very hard and gulp a lot of fuel to spend any time above Mach 1.0. Supercruise plus that level of all-aspect stealth also makes F-22’s lethal AWACS and tanker killers. Something the F-35 would find much harder to duplicate.

Ultimately, the question is whether the F-35 represents a real solution to… well, much of anything. The F-35 may be in the trap of “too expensive to be cost-effective in small wars, not effective enough to be combat effective in the most serious situations.” If you have those concerns, ordering more F-22s which are known to work in the most serious situations, and will maintain that capability long after the F-35 will, makes a lot of sense as insurance.

And since the F-35 is an unproven program, arguing for it at this point in time amounts to blind trust in the Pentagon and Lockheed Martin. 

Gates should not be surprised that this is an issue on Capitol Hill. Or elsewhere.

Gates is on more solid ground when he has asked whether fighters and other short-range assets are the best place to put dollars, vs. long range assets like bombers with guided missiles. That has real resonance, especially in the Pacific theater. 

But then he turns around and cancels the 2018 bomber, and increases his bet on the F-35 (in part as a way to get allies to sign on to the production program, i.e. industrial not military reasons). While not supporting an F-22EX version to close allies who want it. And lying about the military studies he has received.

There are valid arguments both for and against the F-22. And kudos to a guy who is at least willing to stand up and make a decision. But Gates’ own inconsistent rationales and dishonesty on this issue are not doing him any favors. If he loses the argument in Congress, he will have only himself to blame.

Joe,

The 2018 Bomber was not canceled. Aviation Week has an article on how much coin was dedicated to the USAF. It hasn’t be proven, for obvious reason, (Speculating) said the 2018 Bomber fund’s were allocated to the “black” budget, same goes for missile defense systems to. 

The black budget was said to be 50+ Billion, and that is said to be on the low side…I researched this topic for a couple of days when I had the time.

The project was called: Global Strike Capability.
The successor to the B-2.

Sorry, not the name of the project, but what they are producing to accomplish.

Joe, excellent post — some good points that I haven’t even thought of yet.

Jason, also good point — I think that the Pentagon tends to “cancel” a program when they decide it needs to go black. After all, Skunkworks must be cookin’ up something these days ;)

Great debate here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vector1771/3419994901/?addedcomment=1#comment72157620355226267

Heh Joe.

Joe said:“Compare the price of an SU-30MKM to an F-15E Strike Eagle. 2 very comparable platforms, and if anything the SU-30MKMs are better due to the effect of canards and thrust vectoring, coupled with high off-boresight missiles (Dean would lose his retirement cheque).” 

“But the SU-30MKM costs about half as much: $50–60 million vs. $110–120 million for F-15K/SG orders recently. Less sophisticated SU-30MKs cost less than the MKMs, and have proven to be very popular exports. Take a look some time and see who’s flying them around the world.“
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reply: Guess I’m having trouble believing that the F-35 would have much trouble with any Su-30, or that its price would resemble a stealthy PAK FA. Lack of Su-30 stealth is worsened by canards on some. A hodgepodge of avionics must be interesting for maintainers with each blaming the others for problems. 

Plus, the list of Su-30 variant owners and quanitities involved are not impressive except China and India…and India isn’t a potential adversaries. Will we go to war with Indonesia, Malaysia or Vietnam(again!)? Venezuela has 24 and Russia just 19 Su-30s. Come on, you can do better than that…
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Joe said: “Asking why that cost differential exists would be an intelligent question.“
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Or it’s irrelevant since $50–60 million isn’t close to what a PAK FA would cost if stealthy and a new design. Obviously Indian and Russian labor costs less. The Russians probably have greater access to titanium I’m guessing. But the prospect of drunk Russians building my plane would not instill confidence in me as a potential pilot.
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Joes said:“But asking “How will the Russians afford a similar aircraft” betrays a certain ignorance. Especially in an environment where the global economy picks up, and oil/gas prices head through the roof again. As they must, given new finds that aren’t keeping pace with growing demand.“
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Except that as oil prices rise, folks stop buying gas guzzlers and manufacturers build better mileage vehicles and hybrids. They investigate alternative energies that are now more cost effective. Obama already raised the CAFE standards. U.S. tree-huggers will no doubt push other alternative energies seen as more environmental friendly.

Plus when gas prices rise, economies decline and nations enter recessions leading people to buy less gas…especially if they have no job like 11% of Californians.
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Joe said:“The PAK-FA co-development with India will be fielded. And the contingencies you have to think about are all 20 years away, because American weapon development programs take that long from concept to production.“
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reply: And there is zero proof that PAK FA can beat up on either F-22 or F-35 or Patriot or Aegis/SA-3 or SLAMRAAM or F/A-18E/F/G with jamming support, decoys, and AWACS vectoring.

Nor is there any indication that PAK FA owners can hide the locations they land and take-off from. One of the obvious means of achieving air supremacy is to bomb planes on the ground, and their runways/maintenance/supplies. Our B-2 and F-22 are more than up to that task. How large do you think China’s oil reserves are to support a long war and 1.5 people?
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Joe said:“JSF is known to have compromised stealth from the side and rear, much less maneuverability, and loses the “supercruise” capability that lets F-22s engage or disengage almost at will with other fighters, who have to work very hard and gulp a lot of fuel to spend any time above Mach 1.0. Supercruise plus that level of all-aspect stealth also makes F-22’s lethal AWACS and tanker killers. Something the F-35 would find much harder to duplicate.“
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reply: You are acting like its an either/or choice when in fact we will have plenty of F-22s and lots of other air supremacy capabilities on air/sea/land. Both our stealth fighters complement one another, and the B-2 bomber “fleet” helps too. There is no requirement for multiple quarterbacks and running backs when a few talented ones are up to the job on an 11 man team. 

The F-22s can feed targets to standoff F-35s that never need expose their flanks/rear until the threat is reduced and holes in integrated air defenses are created. MALD and IALD decoys can get S-300s/S-400 to turn on radars which is step 1 to air defense destruction. Then there is our Growler EW and AESA radar as future weapon. We will not be standing still over the next 20 years either.

Guess I’m questioning why you believe 120+ deployable F-22s with hundreds of augmenting F-35s and lots of other joint support cannot beat up on anyone to include the adversary owners of the Su-30s you mentioned.
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Joe said: “Ultimately, the question is whether the F-35 represents a real solution to…well, much of anything. The F-35 may be in the trap of “too expensive to be cost-effective in small wars, not effective enough to be combat effective in the most serious situations.” If you have those concerns, ordering more F-22s which are known to work in the most serious situations, and will maintain that capability long after the F-35 will, makes a lot of sense as insurance.“
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Did you see yesterday/today’s footage of Apaches engaging Taliban with 30mm cannon fire? It took 6 requests for approval to fire over a 10 minute period because of a village located 2 miles away. But superb MTADS optics were up to task just as F-35 optics patterned after the successful Sniper XR sytem would locate ground targets and exchange imagery with JTAC Rovers and Army OSRVTs/Apache VUIT-2 and TCDL Assemblies on Block III Apaches.

Anyone who has seen SAR radar imagery would be highly suspect of its capabilities to positively identify much of anything using SAR mapping. Without on board integrated EO/IR optics, there is ample reason no F-22 has made its way into theater where collateral damage and fratricide risk are primary considerations.

Which would you prefer for a notional conflict involving 700 sorties per aircraft spread out over 2 years with 50 sorties supporting 2 weeks of air supremacy missions and 650 sorties supporting nearly 2 years of air to ground:

*F-35: 90% effective for 50 air supremacy sorties and 100% effective for 650 air to ground sorties
*F-22: 100% effective for 50 air supremacy sorties and 75% effective for 650 air to ground sorties.
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Joe said:“And since the F-35 is an unproven program, arguing for it at this point in time amounts to blind trust in the Pentagon and Lockheed Martin.“
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reply: Guess risk-taking on technological progress is the American way and one reason why we excel in both commerce and military ventures.

Further surmise that a company that already makes the F-22, and learned numerous lessons from that endeavor, isn’t going to suddenly turn stupid as it builds a similar plane in greater numbers. 

Sure fixes will be necessary and can be integrated sooner into years of production aircraft. Fixes on one F-35 variant will often apply to others. On a few hundred F-22s there is little opportunity for fix/upgrade before the planes are already produced. On several thousand planes, Lockheeds F-16 proves that Block upgrades are easily achievable in stride.

Lots of knowledgeable experts with good arguments on this blog. But no one is comparing the sacred cost of excessive F-22s with the other urgent spending priorities in our country, like health care, education, rebuilding vital infrastructure. These all pose national and national security risks if not funded Please don’t tell me we will be over-run with the enemy if we don[’t buy more F-22s. If we did buy excessive planes for the ultra irresponsible wastrel generals who care not for the whole of America, we could be over-run by disease, ignorant youth, and killed by crumbling bridges. No need to wait for incoming ICBMs or even terrorists. Defense spending needs to be capped and no longer held as sacred. If DoD wants more, it should get it by saving, not wasting money on systems like FCS and the Osprey and not one, but two new fighter aircraft. Wasting our resources is not patriotic.

Perhaps this is a dumb question, but why can’t the F-16 handle the fighter role until the F-35 is in service? Why does it have to be the F-15?

I hate to knit pick but it’s Carlo Kopp and not what the author printed. A hyperbolic suggestion, hmmm, what was the original requirement for F-22 numbers? An exaggeration or one man’s viewpoint based not the least on what the USAF originally required!!

For all readers of this thread who think that they are attempting to be patriotic I have a question for you. Why on earth should my opinion or Jawaralal Bernstein’s opinion count for more than a group of 4 star generals? Well I can not speak for Mr. Bernstein, but as for myself, during my period of military service I set the military record for being late for formation and using the same excuse over and over again, I could not find my car keys, and getting away with it. That is not a feat that any group of 4 star generals can match. I must have a very important daddy.

So Jawaralal Bernstein wants more funding for education? On the per student basis, we already spend more than most peer nations, with dismal results. In fact there are States (NY comes to mind) where we spend, if memory serves, around $10K a year per student. What do South Koreans? 30 per cent of that? And they beat us in every international ranking. So may be more funds is not the answer?
Same logic applies to health care. The US government funding of health care is very comparable to Europe, with their universal coverage. So may be we spend inefficiently?
People fight for every military dollar. Let us expose those other priorities to the same rigorous examination before we cut the military, which is not big at all, by historical standards.

I did alittle digging and found out this years DoD budget is bigger then last years budget. Now, Robert Gates did some big weapons cuts, but I’m going by “overall” numbers and found this:

Bush’s 2009 Budget: $513 Billion
Obama’s 2010 Budget: $534 Billion

I’m not a math major but, the bottom one seems bigger…

That is not including the $50+ Billion (but, is actually closer to 1 trillion). And the $106 Billion War Supplemental.

Can’t really argue with numbers, they never lie.

Sorry, 50+ Billion Black Budget.

It’s official: 7 more F-22’s will be built. Bringing the total to 194.

Jason, that was the Senate version and the White House is threatening to veto any bill including more F-22s.

It was very irritating to learn that one proposed defense budget cut (theoretically paying for the F-22) involves the Army MQ-1C UAS budget for 2010 which is proposed to be cut in half…reducing it by $173 million. 

This is the Army/Joint future version of Predator that will eventually carry up to 4 Hellfire missiles. It has automated take-off and landing by enlisted and warrant officer operators deployed in theater where they can directly coordinate/plan with supported commanders and fully understand the tactical situation.

The White House also came out against these Congressional UAS cuts for that critical reconnaissance surveillance target acquisition system supporting Soldiers fighting in combat.…while F-22s have yet to support either war.

Cole, I have a question reguarding the F-22 fight. Was the 1.3 billion, for the 22, part of the 2010 “base” budget? If so, Reuters had an article that the bill was on the Presidents desk, and he plans on signing it today, or tomorrow. If it is not vetoed, meaning it was part of the base budget, then the 7 fighters would be built.

I checked the budget, and it said that the budget for the UCAV’s (overall) were increased. I could be wrong, it was a few weeks ago when I read that. Gates is very high on UCAV’s, as he’s stated on a number of occasions. The budget was increased for UCAV R/D, X-45C, X-47B, along with Reaper and Global Hawk.
Maybe the DoD canceled the funds for that particular program, but increased funds for other UAV advancements. Possibly an better UAV then the one you mention. I’ll check out the UAV you mentioned, sounds like a good system, because I have never heard of it.

I think this is more about keeping the assembly line open than getting more aircraft. Seven more 22s certainly isn’t enough to make a difference, but I’m guessing Congress just wants to keep the assembly line open in hopes that cooler heads will prevail in the next budget year and they can figure out what to do from then on.

Expect Alex is on tgt. It’s amazing how much vitriol & blather has benn generated by the F22 (the Raptor…the White Whale of the DOD..LOL). If Gates & Cole are right & “irregular warfare” is the future (and all conflict in the next 20 years will mirror Iraq & VN) and conventional warfare has been cast to the dust bin of history, then the F22 critics will be have guessed correctly. That would be a truly happy ending for our country.
If on the other hand the US faces a conventional threat in the next two decades, the “arm chair” air warriors (who would not know a crank from a E-pole) won’t be remembered.
If Gates and Cole are right, then the US could get the DOD that Barney Frank and others of his political ilk advocate. I hope Cole, Gates and Barney are right…but I’d never take that much risk with US and global security.
But let’s be positive and hope for the best.

You know Mark, it does kind of suck to be on the same side of ANY issue with Barney, the Huffington Post, and other such ilk. But suspect they don’t care much for the F-35 or C-17 either. Obviously, I fully support those USAF programs because they support the Army and Joint force, and the current wars PLUS any future wars regardless of what type they are.

I actually voted for our first year Democratic Congressman last year, Bobby Bright, because I figured the Democrats were going to be in charge so it would probably be better to have a local Democratic Congressman looking after Ft Rucker and the Army. I was partially right and he did end up on the House Armed Services Committee. But, Maxwell AFB is in Montgomery where he used to be mayor, so guess he kind of looks after them more. My wife did enjoy hosting his wife reading to her Rucker daycare class last Friday.

So Congressman Bright, if you have any aides out there “google newsing” your name each day, how about taking care of the Army as well as you appear to be favoring the USAF. The Army requires a top notch UAS capability in both theaters of conflict that doesn’t run off everytime something perceived to be more important occurs. After all, the Army is bearing the brunt of fighting/deploying in this war…and all recent wars for that matter.

And Mark, considering we easily handled Iraq twice and Serbia once since 1991 WITHOUT ANY F-22s, and without losing a single F-15/F-16 in air-to-air combat, by little violin is playing for you and yours as you forecast new found competence and manufacturing prowess/reliability in Russian aircraft and air defenses. Everyone thought the MiG-25 was ten foot tall too, and seems like I’ve been hearing about the PAK FA since the 90s. ;)

Jason,

Are really that disingenuous or just that ignorant?

Sure the 2010 defense budget ‘looks’ bigger but it includes much of the war spending were as in the 2009 & previous budgets war spending was in separate appropriations bills.

Pfcem,

Are you a Republican? If so, I’m sad to see people like you in my party. You give all of us a bad name. Do you want to see the cuts? Here:
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN2529969020090625

7 More F-22’s, 1.2 Billion in Missile Defense cuts. The multi-kill BMD needs to be killed. It’s cost over-runs and lack of a complete working system that is waaaaay past it’s complete date. Kill the program. 

Also, they are TRANSFERRING funds to AEGIS, a WORKING system. What a concept. Next, billions of dollars went into Direct-Energy weapons production (read the detailed docs online for a list — they are there), and R/D for future direct-energy weapons (such as the free electron lasers). Laser weapons are 10x more effective then BMD missiles, and billions cheaper. Also, the production of the Rail-Gun system, that they are now prototyping on one of the US destroyers.
The Navy predicts the Rail-Gun will be in service about 2015. Can also be used as Missile Defense, much cheaper, and more effective then the canceled systems cut by Gates. 

Jesus Christ, read the f’n list man, the programs they canceled (except for the F-22) need to be cut. It’s not as bad as you are making it out to be. Do some research on the wasteful programs over the past 2 decades. We have lost BILLIONS on programs that never went into service. Why in the hell can Russia get more bang for their buck, then the US? Simple, the US Military have been spending coin on programs with NO results!

Me, Ignorant? If being fiscally conservative makes me ignorant, then color me ignorant. At least the Military wasn’t gutted, like blow-job Bill.

While we are on the laser topic:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Navy_Laser_Success_Key_In_UAV_Research_And_Development_999.html

A lot closer to service then most people think.

I have a rail-gun article I will post later.

More detailed look at the budget/progress before going to the senate:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/wm2501.cfm

Jason,

Your link to that opinion peace does not even come close to detailing all the cuts in the 2010 defense bugdet.

Yes disingenuous (because you know there are major cuts in the defense budget & the only reason it ‘appears’ to have grown is because of the inclusion of a major portion of war spending being INCLUDED IN THE BASE BUDGET rather than in separate supplimental appropriations) or ignorant (because you have fallen hook line & sinker for Obama’s scam to cut defense but fool those you aren’t paying attention that his budget INCLUDES A MAJOR PORTION OF WAS SPENDING IN THE BASE BUDGET rather than in separate supplimental appropriations).

pfcem,

Then what did that 106 billion go to, that passed this week? I thought that was the war supplemental for this year? Maybe I am mistaken and need to do more through research. If so, I was wrong.

Cole,
I just don’t possess the crystal ball that you and Barney found. Air combat from Pershing thro today in Afghanistan is the runway behind us and military circumstances in Afghanistan will not automatically dictate future fights; of course, there are lessons to be drawn from history and perhaps it is precisely the presence of overwhelming air dominance technology that has given the US an edge and likely created the asymmetrical, irregular warfare the SECDEF seems to be captured by. 

Your problem is more fundamental…you want to roll the clock back to 1918 when the air/land military relationship had the air forces tethered to the ground commander like flying artillery. Infantry officers would decide how the air forces would be employed regardless of how technically unskilled or ignorant. Sorry but history proved that the air guys were right.

The notion that every dollar appropriated to the AF is taken away from the Army is equally sophmoric.

MY POINT on F22 is not about whether we should buy 183 or 191 or 260 F22s…When Gen John Corley (ACC/CC) says we are taking on too much risk with a lower F22 buy, that is his expert military opiniion and it should be respected. Gen Corley is sober and intellectual officer who happens to be well schooled in air combat. There is much more to this discussion that you know. Regardless of your DOD contractor position, I’d bet the farm that you are not as well informed or schooled on this subject as John Corley?
It’s Mr. Gates job to make the call on money & rrisk. SECDEF has made his call. Congress will make their call. The Congress and the American people are not likely to side with your “it’s all about the Army” view…the world is a complicated place and your 1918 version of defense does nothing for our problems in Iran, TW/China, Pakistan, or Russia.
I haven’t heard any serious person in the AF or Navy advocate for a weak Army.…or try instruct the Army on what the Army TOA should be…why do you insist on this “Army uber alles” business”..the AF should only buy aircraft (F35) that support the Army…but I forget, you & Barney have the accurate crystal balls.

Mark said: “Your problem is more fundamental…you want to roll the clock back to 1918 when the air/land military relationship had the air forces tethered to the ground commander like flying artillery. Infantry officers would decide how the air forces would be employed regardless of how technically unskilled or ignorant. Sorry but history proved that the air guys were right.“
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Mark, I realize the USAF likes using ancient history examples to illustrate that airpower should be centralized. 

However, in the years since, both the Marines and Army have figured out how to employ decentralized planning and execution of organic or supporting airpower, at least down to division and sometimes brigade (& Marine equivalent)level. Aviators in both ground services also realize that there is no shame in being an enabling force supporting ground/naval forces and the tactical and operational level of war.

It is encouraging that the Joint Force Command Marine Commander is against EBO and for individual leader initiative. But while much of the initiative-concern has focused on small ground units, what about joint level? What about the C2 System and platform/facility vulnerability and loss of initiative that results:

- running the air war and joint aerial ISR (with too much data to analyze) exclusively from a distant central CAOC and AWACS

- using 2 days of centralized planning (with too many strategic, operational, tactical targets to analyze) prior to executing an out of date joint targeting and ISR plan.

No, the USAF should never be the servant of the ground component, but neither should it insist on centralized control of all airpower and UAS flying above the coordinating altitude. That stifles ground commander initiative to employ airpower and aerial ISR at the time and place of tactical commander choosing based on local TIMELY combat information and commander’s critical information requirements. 

Nor should the USAF expand its troubling tendency to believe that warfare, at least their part of it, can be fought from a distance. Concepts like Global Strike and centralized UAS control from stateside are troubling and seemingly growing. 

I strongly doubt any Marine or Army officer would condone having one portion of its force (largely officer)fighting from the U.S. while other parts of the force (largely enlisted) are exposed to danger and away from momma/kids in a war zone turning wrenches and getting Predators ready for take-off and recovery. 

Are we accepting the notion that aerial fighting can be done strictly from afar and on a “visitor” basis so that by the time they figure out the theater they go home? Should Airmen deploy less frequently than Soldiers because they are provided the force structure and adequate expensive lethal systems to allow it in 10 AEFs? 

Meanwhile, C-17 and other transport pilots are landing forward every day, airmen are offloading and maintaining forward and protecting forward airfields in more primitive and dangerous conditions. Of course, Soldiers and Marines are in the field constantly and often spend 7 months to a year deployed followed by a year at home in a never-ending cycle.

Do I know diddly compared to the ACC commander. Obviously not and wholly irrelevant. But note he chose his words carefully. Do we know of any credible INDEPENDENT study to see if 187 F-22s IS OR IS NOT ENOUGH, especially if adjustments were made such as in numbers of AEFs or in numbers of pilots per F-22? 

Do you seriously believe any Airman, or contractor/lobbyist paid by the USAF (cough cough RAND), would conduct a study that DID NOT favor more F-22s?

Finally got to see the RAND study that postulated that Chinese airpower could overwhelm our small F-22 force and get to our AWACS/tankers. Well no kidding given the assumptions used. I can’t go into excessive detail because it was FOUO but let’s just say that study:

- used puny numbers of the overall quantity of F-22s in theater flying a CAP at any given time. There was no provision for a ZULU alert force of F-22s if radar showed trouble

- Naval Aegis/Standard missiles were assumed away as were Taiwan Navy efforts 

- Taiwanese Patriot missiles and airpower were not played

- Japanese airpower and Patriots were not played even though the Chinese were attacking Japanese airfields…huh??

- Naval/Marine fighter airpower was not played at all!!

- When USAF F-35s WERE added, the combined F-22/F-35 force fared much better, essentially wiping out nearly every advanced Chinese fighter in one sortie of several hours. Gee that was short air supremacy war.

- There were F-35/F-22 losses when assumptions were made that Russian/Chinese made air-to-air missiles against our STEALTH fighters had a similar probability of kill compared to our missiles against their NON-STEALTH fighters. Without divulging the Pks involved, it was a ludicrously inaccurate comparison

Finally, part of the study impled that we should be shocked that the USAF might actually lose a few aircraft and pilots. Never mind that no Soviet fighter ever shot down an F-15/16. Never mind that ejection seats work while thousands of ground Soldiers/Marines (and Airman/Sailors taking their place on the ground) have died unable to eject from an IED or enemy bullets. 

We can’t risk FIGHTER PILOT lives or aircraft! The horror! They might have to use their SERE training and live in the outback like their infantry brethren for a few days.

Finally the study strangely brought out the obvious point that short range ground-base fighters are extremely vulnerable because their AIRFIELDS are very vulnerable. Oddly enough, it was the assumption that Naval/Patriot/Allied missiles and Naval/Marine/Allied airpower would NOT be involved that risked aircraft on the ground…and led to fewer available in the air. 

I was shocked at how few aircraft of the total postulated would be airborne at any time. This is less attributable to insufficient aircraft overall or in theater. It was the result of aircraft at risk from missile attack while on the ground. It is also attributable to horrible F-22 mission capable rates in the 60% range, lots of hours of wrench-turning per hour of flight, and crew endurance limits.

Bottom line, is the USAF appears to want us to provide them a blank check because they don’t fly enough aircraft each hour of the day (or can’t due to maintenance/crew endurance/ distance from target) to be effective against the threat. It’s bad enough to pay $140–180 million (lately $234 million in 2010) for a fighter. It sucks to have that expensive fighter sitting on the ground being blown up by submunitions or wasting crew endurance flying en route from Guam or topping off on a tanker.

The latter argument alone (too many aircraft on the ground) should be enough to convince the USAF to train more than 1.25 pilots to share the same F-22 to keep the darn thing in the air in those rarest/shortest of surge air supremacy wars. Won’t get enough peacetime flight hours per pilot that way? Should have been a transport pilot…now off to the simulator you go. 

Spend a billion or two on great motion simulators to include simulated g-forces and you would surpass live training using simulated threats in a variety of aerial force-on-force scenarios (against other live pilots)and counter-SAM flying/bombing exercises against ACTUAL SIMULATED THREAT TERRAIN.

Has anyone studied losses of fighters and fighter pilots caused by training for air-to-air in peacetime vs. actual combat air-to-air losses? Seems like several times a year you lose a pilot and costly aircraft in dogfighting mid-airs. As mentioned we have never lost an F-15/16 pilot in actual combat air-to-air. 

Obviously more pilots and aircraft have been lost against SAMs during wartime. Simulators would accurately duplicate that environment and allow better training to attack enemy airfields/TBM to preclude air-to-air and TBM losses. Practice hitting THEIR aircraft and TBM on the ground before they can hit ours!
======================================
Mark said: “The notion that every dollar appropriated to the AF is taken away from the Army is equally sophmoric.“
======================================
Yet despite clear evidence that the air component does NOT bear the brunt of fighting, casualties, and deployment in conflicts of the past 45 years, aerial component exquisite systems are continuously funded at progressively greater cost levels…while feeling entitled to near-equal fighter numbers at the higher price/tech level. 

Meanwhile those exposed to the greatest risks and deployments are perpetually underfunded/undet-teched and left with 75% solutions. To think that funding for airpower does not detract from groundpower is the height of naivete. 

Congress, the QDR, and Joint Force must consider what air/naval/land systems cost the most to procure, operate snd support, and man/woman…to include rank/cost of that force structure. Those systems that cost the most, require the most officers as a percentage of the component, and contribute primarily to the short war and unlikely scenarios must be weighed against those that contribute the most to the long war and most likely scenarios. 

When four young ground Soldiers cost about the same as one USAF aviator in salary and that discrepancy grows when training and retirement costs are added, it becomes clear where we need to shift military force structure when faced with dwindling resources and greater civil expenses.

Cole,
The Cold War is ancient history? 1989? BTW, the Army TOA didn’t deter the Soviets..it was Airpower and SLBMs.
DESERT STORM & ALLIED FORCE are ancient history??

AF should not continue develop C2? The operational & strategic effects created by air power should be kept static or discarded? In favor of what? WWII attrition warfare? Can you spell Luddite?

AF UAS pilots should be in theatre? OK..couple of questions…Are the UAS pilots effective from their current location? Would they be more effective if in the AOR? If so HOW?.…if not, why would the JFC want more bodies in theater that he must feed, house and protect?? 

Nice try on linking some RAND study on PRC/TW and Gen Corley…I’d bet $$ that Gen Corley is much more influenced by NAISC, Nellis and the IC that some FFRDC…want to bet??

All your blather on TW/PRC displays a profound lack of understanding of the real issues.

The entire “sacrificing fighter pilot lives” was nonsenical and I am embarrased for you.

You AF assertions are equally silly.
The SECDEF made the call on the F22. Suspect he makes calls on Army TOA…NOT THE CSAF…so if the Army has a TOA problem, I suggest you try barking up the right tree.
The AF is “stifling” ground ops in Iraq & Afghanistan?? YGBSM. Who is in command in Iraq? ARMY! Who is in commnand in Afghanistan? ARMY! Who is the COCOM/CC? ARMY! So, Army GOs with command authority over the JFACC are standing by and allowing ground ops to be “stifled”?? I think not…more likely, you are simply clueless.

The whole “not enough AF officer casualties”? Do you have any idea how strange and silly that sounds.
As does your assertion that we should ignore other strategic threats and focus the entire DOD budget on “the Army problem”. You remarks on one AF officer salary = 4 enlisted, retirement costs, etc and your vague restructuring notion.…LOL..I would love to hear how Cole would re-design the AF..DOD…we need a good laugh.

The SecDef is “rebalancing” DOD assets…right or wrong…not the AF. Your complaint is not with the AF…but with the SecDef. 

Should we do as Cole advocates and bet most of our bank roll on “the Long War”..short change all other strategic investments.…have the AF listen to guys with comical notions of air warfare and scrap the high end weapons that are our strategic trump cards in favor of some vague notions the “social injustice” of AF officers not suffering and dying in “proper numbers “?? What are those numbers?
Cole, the F22 & the AF have become your “white whale”..LOL…you need to get a life.

Mark, no disrespect meant to you, fighter pilots, or Predator pilots all doing a great job whether fighting these wars or deterring others. Please stick to the issues and not personal attacks. 

Can’t find a single reference where I specifically stated “not enough AF officer casualties” or “sacrificing pilot lives.” Do believe that the F-22 vs. F-35 quantity argument comes down to perspective of whether the short air-to-air and counter-SAM effort (which would reduce AF officer casualties) is more critical than the long war and air-to-ground (which would reduce far higher ground force casualties). Guess I believe that F-35 pilots would still outclass their opposition and the current undefeated air-to-air record would remain intact. 

The “have your cake and eat it to” argument of many F-22s and lots of F-35s is simply not affordable. The high-low mix concept originated by the F-15/F-16 is sound. But the new balance of assets should reflect new and projectable threats…not Cold War threats. 

As for “why would the JFC want more bodies in theater that he must feed, house and protect??” I offer this observation. Where does it stop especially if more UAS are fielded? Who is next to stay at home? Is Global Strike from the U.S. necessary when assets closer to the threat (Navy and forward deployed) could accomplish the same objective? 

With hundreds of thousands in theater, what additional burden would be added having a few UAS pilots in theater where they could better coordinate tactical support for Soldiers/Marines/Airmen? Could they not be part of that 10 AEF deployment cycle? Would that facilitate cueing support and airspace deconfliction with Army UAS operators already there? 

Since WWII when risk, casualties, and “for the duration” deployment burdens were more equal on land/air/sea, there has been an undeniable shift that has not bode well for the ground services. All servicemembers are paid equally by pay grade. They do not share an equal deployment burden. 

While 12–15 months may be far too high as the Army example, it is a reflection of the force structure available. If you show me a service with 4/5/6 month deployments (allowing payment of TDY)facilitated by 10 AEFs worth of force structure, I would submit that service has excessive servicemembers/assets in proportion to other services.

Shouldn’t Congress and the QDR make an effort to better equalize the deployment burden at a common level for all services? Would that make some services more effective in the second half of their tour due to better familiarity with the theater’s unit’s, terrain, and threats? Would other services be more effective by being less burned out and more likely to stay in the service? 

Is 8 months across the board for all services about right? That would require longer AEF tours and more frequent deployment of ground assets or more stay-behind Army/Marine equipment that new units fall onto. But that’s part of fair apportionment of funding and deployment for all services. 

It is my personal belief that Cold War threats characterized by equal potential risk across the components, have been replaced by reduced air/naval threats, while very real ground threats remain. Funding and force structure shifts that recognize this shift have been slow in coming.

As of late, it appears that the Congress controls the TOA, not the SECDEF or service chiefs. For whatever reason, to include better lobbying efforts and think tank defenders, the air component has been able to make a better PR and jobs case to Congress for retaining airpower funding. 

It also seems as if most Army bases are in cheaper Red state locations whereas Navy, Marine, and Air Force bases and manufacturing are often in Blue or a broad cross section of states. This is problematic, of course, because the real estate costs and additional pay required for servicemembers and defense contractors on the left coast(s) tends to be higher. Even DoD efforts to move a carrier to Jacksonville to better disperse the carrier force (and in a cheaper location) are failing due to politics.

As for my “ancient history” reference, I was referring to example cited where North Africa airpower and a British Air Field Marshal Sir Arthur Tedder led to the idea of central control, decentralized execution (see page 29 of Air Force Doctrine 1). That doctrine document also states:

“Thus, a COMAFFOR (commmander air forces) acting as a JFACC (joint force air component commander) exercises OPCON (operational control)of Air Force forces and TACON (tactical control) of any Navy, Army, and Marine aviation assets made available to the JFACC (i.e., those forces not retained for their own Service’s organic operations).”

The “stifling” may come down to what assets are controlled by the JFACC through the CAOC and which are retained by the Services, and can be counted on for direct and general support. The USAF often argues it should have more control over other service airpower to include UAS. However, other services seem to do just fine exercising centralized control and decentralized execution of air assets at Army division and Marine Expeditionary level. So why should the JFACC have more control of those air assets?

That only leads to situations like OIF where only a single Army Hunter UAV supported the ground advance on Baghdad because all the USAF Predators were out looking for and not finding SCUDS. 

Since we were talking ancient history, it was a Prussian Field Marshal Von Moltke that stated more or less, “No plan survives contact with the enemy.” So why would we count on an air targeting and air ISR plan created two days ago in the CAOC? Aren’t warfighters closest to the fight best informed on the tactical targets and ISR requirements?

No white whales for me. I’m comfortable on land and air…but easily get seasick and would continuously bang my head and get claustrophobic on Navy ships. Don’t know how my nephew who is a nuke sub sailor does it. Given the deployment/risk probabilities, I’m encouraging my daughter to become an Air Force doctor now that she is entering Med School…but gotta find a tactful way to tell her not to be a flight surgeon…that finger biz. :(

Cole,
I expect that you are a good husband and a exemplary citizen etc.
BUT, the AF will look after their folks (you comments on AEF vs Army deployments) and that’s really none of the Army’s business. We all make a choices.…Go AF!

As you may have guessed, I am “inside the wire’ but you would not guess my real force structure ideas…we need to get past the “turd bowl” our leaders gave us in Iraq, we need to figure out something for Afghanistan/Pak etc..and invest prudently to deal with these problems.…but past that (and we will eventually get past Af/Pak)…WHY do I need a huge Army? What would the $$ spent on all those folks do for the US?? Couldn’t the AF be smaller? Is the AF buying the right force structure? We need to think past Labor Day weekend in force procurement and how we arrange our securtiy.
That said…I wish you well with your jousting with windmills that, in 20 yrs, will be OBE.

A smaller AF? The AF already went through a huge period of downsizing. From around the time of the end of the Cold War, we were at about 650,000 in our Active Duty component alone. Slowly that number dropped, and after the Force Shaping initiative (read: aggressive downsizing) that happened these past few years, our Active Duty component is less than 330,000. Yet we’re finding that we actually cut too much, even before we hit the Force Shaping goal. Now the AF is struggling with manning shortages and training/experience issues since most of victims of Force Shaping were experienced personnel. On top of that, last year the Air Force performed the worst with personnel retainability among the different services (around 70%) while the Navy came close to 100% and the Army and Marine Corps exceeded their goals quite a bit above 100%. We’ve already consolidated as many career-fields that we could think of, and are still looking for more that we can. They recently consolidated my careerfield’s shred (tactical aircraft maintenance, aka crew chief) so that journeymen-level maintainers can cross over to different airframes, whereas before that you had to be a craftsman-level to do so. On paper it makes sense, but in practice it doesn’t quite work as well as you’d think.

Any fighter aircraft maintainer can tell you that working a high-ops tempo at 13–14 hours a day, is the norm at home station. And working 7 days a week, with numerous back-to-back 16-hour shifts is not an exception either. One of the ex-F-22 maintainers told me he did that for three years straight, as an F-15 maintainer I did it for three months straight so it really made me feel bad thinking I had it bad then. That’s not even being deployed to the AOR, that’s at home station. These aircraft are aging, and require intensive maintenance. New aircraft are finicky and need to get the bugs sorted out (a historically natural process with any new technology), and are also maintenance intensive.

I’m not saying that we’re exposed to the same amount of danger or hardship as our brothers and sister ground pounders or jar heads (they have my utmost respect and appreciation), but we don’t exactly have cake jobs that most people assume about the AF either (that would be the desk jockeys in finance, etc).

Trophy,
Smaller does not mean less lethal. What I am advocating is not committing billions to a force structure that could be obsolete before the end of procurement. For example, we should be investing NOW in: a 6th Generation fighter and strike technology, increased range and lethality, ISR that can cope with a high threat environment and decision support gear & processes to support battle management.

I was talking about investment strategies…you are talking O&M…Your references to fighter mx are due in part to cutting personnel (without cutting iron — we did this after DS) and increasing ops tempo and cutting O&M funds…this is not new…I ran a three shift mx F15 operation 15 years ago…we euphemistically called the third shift a servicing shift.
Demand should never outstrip supply…OpsTempo should be informed by force structure and O&M funding…but, the suits seldom get it or see things this way.

Cole,

You made some good points, which is why I was disappointed with the evasions elsewhere. You said the Russians couldn’t afford advanced fighters. I pointed out that they’re an major energy exporting country. All in a Peak Oil world, where the Russian government owns a lot of the oil. I also pointed out their ability to produce current fighters comparable to similar American planes for about half as much.

You would have been much smarter to just gracefully admit that you were wrong on those points. Instead of calling your basic honesty into question.

The points re: the PAK-FA are similar patent nonsense. All planning for future contingencies occurs without proof. That’s why it’s, you know, the future? Yet that future must nevertheless be considered. Especially after India’s current SU-30MKIs performed so very well and won awards at the recent Red Flag exercise in the USA. Not to mention the British experience with them at Indra Dhanush. Arrogant dismissal is a poor substitute for informed discussion.

With that said, your point regarding the joint force is a worthwhile one. Mixed squadrons with different aircraft types might be a useful way forward, especially you start hanging longer-range missiles with 2-way datalinks on lower-end fighters, and letting the F-22 be the bird dog. The F-22 is an asset that needs to be maximized even if we do buy more, and the USAF seems to still be trying to figure out exactly how.

The question we’re discussing is what that mix should be. Arguing for more F-22s in it does not necessarily mean that the rest has to remain as is. It just means an opinion that the slots it fills are less substitutable than others. In particular by the F-35, which this FY 2010 budget has very explicitly turned into an either/or proposition.

As I’ve noted above, however, the best answer may even be “nether”. Especially if the Pacific is set to become the most critical theater. (Jason, Gates’ statement seemed pretty clear re: the 2018 bomber — got an URL for that article?)

As for the RAND study, Cole, that’s publicly available. Nothing secret about it, very visible on the web. I’ve seen it too. The F-35s made little difference to the scenario (slide 52). As for:

“…I was shocked at how few aircraft of the total postulated would be airborne at any time. This is less attributable to insufficient aircraft overall or in theater. It was the result of aircraft at risk from missile attack while on the ground. ”

Actually, the problem was the number of support aircraft required to keep fighters forward-deployed in the air from distant bases. The Navy was pushed off by SU-30 family planes with long range anti-ship missiles (slide 8). Throw in new Chinese ballistic missiles that can target carriers at extended range, and it gets worse. All with Navy no tanker aircraft to support them (thanks for retiring the S-3s…), other than inadequate F/A-18E/F buddy refueling. 

RAND was arguing, correctly I think, that limited numbers of very superior aircraft and over-reliance on missile capabilities may not lead to a rosy result in real combat — especially if other factors combine to make the imbalance worse. I think that’s a real issue to consider for F-22s without additional support. 

My deeper question is whether the F-35 amounts to that kind of support, given its capabilities and costs. Even as the kind of work done by an Apache helicopter can, increasingly, also be done by fixed-wing UAVs that carry similar optics at much, much less than $100 million a pop. 

In other words, I see the F-22’s rationale remaining robust, but the F-35’s fraying at both ends. And a need for a different kind of low-end force than the USAF is currently contemplating, in order to handle both domestic air sovereignty patrols and manned missions in lower-intensity situations. UAVs are not a full solution, either; other changes will also be needed.

Joining an intelligent, informed discussion on that level would be more welcome than the seemingly partisan replies we got.

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