Shut Down Osprey Production!

Shut Down Osprey Production!

The slugfest over the V-22 Osprey swung into round 10 or so today as Rep. Edolphus Towns (D-NY), chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, called for a halt to V-22 production. The Marines defended the plane, including the remarkable claim by the head of Marine Aviation that US foreign policy would be fundamentally different today if the V-22 had been available in 1980 when the US tried and failed to rescue the hostages held in the US Embassy in Iran.

“It would have been a successful mission and we probably wouldn’t be where we are with Iran today,” Lt. Gen. George Trautman said in response to a “softball” question from the top Republican on the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. Rep. Issa asked Trautman what would have happened if the V-22 had been available back then.

But the chairman said “it’s time to put the Osprey out of its misery,” adding that, “the dream of a viable high-speed, long-range, tilt-rotor aircraft has not been realized.”


It was about as wild as a defense procurement hearing gets. There were charges of blatant untruths and ignorance and more reasoned dialogue about operational readiness rates and life cycle costs.

Bottom lines. For the Marines, Trautman said the plane saves lives because it can do things no helo can handle. Lt. Col. Karsten Heckl, former VMM-162 commander in Iraq, said his aircraft flew everywhere and everywhen it was asked, including into the most dangerous areas in broad daylight. “I operated for seven months and did not miss a mission. I don’t know what else you want,” Heckl told the committee. For the House committee: “The Marine Corps’ own reports on the performance of the Osprey in Iraq reveal that the Osprey was restricted to a very limited role due to its vulnerability to hostile fire, its lack of maneuverability, and its unreliability in the heat and sand of Iraq.”

That was the heart of Towns’ opening statement as he faced Trautman, back from last month’s aborted hearing.

The chairman did not let up. Towns said the combat readiness rate for the Ospreys was “surprising and appalling.” Of the 105 Ospreys bought since 1988, he said, “only 47 are considered ‘combat deployable.’ Worse, we asked the Marine Corps how many of these are ready for combat on any given day. On the day the Marine Corps picked, June third of this year, only 22 of these 47 Ospreys were ready for combat. In other words, fewer than half could be used for combat on a good day.”

Towns’ was drawing on the latest GAO report about the V-22, which makes for occasionally grim reading. One statistic sure to draw close scrutiny from the House and Senate as they mark up the defense spending and authorization bills is a new estimate for the long-term costs of the tilt-rotor aircraft: “The aircraft’s operations and support costs, currently reported at $75.4 billion (then-year dollars) for the life cycle of the program, are just beginning and expected to rise. The MV-22’s costs per flight hour is over $11,000—more than double the target estimate and 140 percent higher than the CH-46E helicopter.”

The man who, until recently was the lead analyst on the MV-22 at the respected Institute for Defense Analyses, went much further. Arthur Rivolo criticized the V-22 as a dangerous aircraft, saying the V-22 “would fail to meet basic airworthiness requirements” set by the FAA. The Marines’ commitment to the aircraft “represents a cynical disregard for soldiers’ lives in favor of supporting a blind allegiance to the cause of this aircraft.”

Those claims led an outraged Lt. Col. Heckl to counterattack: “Some of what I’ve heard here today is just blatantly inaccurate. I don’t agree with a single thing Mr. Rivolo said.

Trautman didn’t answer Rivolo’s claims. He focused on the mean time between failures for Osprey parts, citing them as the biggest problem the plane faces and the main cause of the sharply rising life cycle costs.

The GAO report recommended a fundamental rethink of the Osprey program. “Questions to consider include: To what degree is the V-22 a suitable and exclusive candidate for the operational needs of the Marine Corps and other services? How much will it cost? How much can DOD afford to spend? To what degree can a strategy be crafted for ensuring control over these future costs? If the V-22 is only partially suitable, to what degree can another existing aircraft or some mixture of existing aircraft (including V-22s) or a new aircraft perform all or some of its roles more cost effectively? Some consideration should be given to evaluating the roles such aircraft play in today’s theaters of war and whether their performance warrants their cost,” the GAO said.

What’s at stake? “Failure to re-examine the V-22 program at this point risks the expenditure of billions of dollars on an approach that may be less effective than alternatives.”

Round 11 coming up soon.

Share |

Join the Conversation

Pretty good post. I just found your blog and wanted to say
that I have really liked browsing your blog posts. In any case
I’ll be subscribing to your feed and I hope you write again soon!

While the Osprey technology will one day be the standard for troop transport. The current Osprey with all its problems should be retired, and only used to study and fix the problems for a new program.

In the 80s, I was a copywriter working at the ad agency that is now famous for freecreditreport​.com and GEICO. While there, I worked on Allison Gas Turbine Division of GM. They made combat aircraft engines and they were taking their big engine, the T-56, which goes in the C-130 and turning it into the turbine that powers the Osprey. I did ads for the Osprey for Aviation Week and Space Technology.

Back then, there was a lot of talk about how this plane was too slow to escort troops into theatre and then how it didn’t have weapon to defend itself because that would be a weight problem…etc.

A contractor told me at lunch one day “no military program ever really dies, no matter how bad it is.”

I don’t know why he thought it might be bad. But I thought how true that is, particularly when anyone who opposed to a weapon system is called into question about their patriotism. But killing a bad plane isn’t unpatriotic. It’s the right thing to do.

The problem is this. Military procurement is out of control and needs to be more highly regulated and transparent. That said, voters only get a few moments in a booth with a curtain to put someone in power. Lobbyists spend the rest of the politicians lives buying them dinners and making campaign contributions.The politician has to decide btween loyalties…their voters, the their campaign contributors and the country.

Tough spot to be in.

That’s sad because this is a really important discussion and I believe a really important blog. Unfortunately politicians may not be reading it.

They should

Daniel
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

Sounds like Rep. Edolphus Towns needs to be given a ride in the Osprey. Most every critic of the magnificent aircraft have been converted to supports after having done so.

pfcem, Riding in one that is operational (which it seems is rare even under the best conditions) is far different then addressing the problems with all the other Ospreys. The Osprey’s are falling apart, the marines aren’t up to the job in maintaining them. 47 out of 108 at one time under the BEST conditions, that’s sad. I hate to see what they are like under the worst conditions during wartime when they are actually allowed to be used as needed, instead of having restrictions.

Zach,

Get a life & join reality. Operational Ospreys are by no means rare. The Osprey’s are not falling apart. Yes they are having some specific issues with operating in an environment foreign from what they were designed for which is FAR from “the best conditions”.

So the key point for the Democratic leadershp is to eliminate viartually every advanced system available to US forces: and with the way COIN is interpreted then the dominate motif is that the US military becomes a French army suitable for Algeria; and with the V-22 attack, combined with EFV, I am sure the “useless” amphibs are next; because the USMC really is only a light version of the US Army; so we could then save money by merging the USMC into the US Army; and since we do not need the “fighter mentality” of the USAF we could save even more money by merging the USAF into the US Army; now we are down to two services: so that joint operatioons are simple: either you are on the land or on the sea, and one of the two services would then be in command.

Of course pfcem, It’s made partly by Boeing. Right? It has to be a good product.

I do wish they could get this platform right. Its a great concept/design and I would love to see the Coast Guard with it some day for SAR.

From the looks of things, the Marines have confused the mission with the a/c. The mission is valuable, and is done best with a fast, heavy VTOL; but “fast, heavy VTOL” is not necessarily the same thing as “V-22 Osprey”.

PFCEM,

Please due not take this personally but if you have been with the Marine Corps more than your first tour you would know there are no optimal situations with the Corps. We thrive on adversity, a challenge, and getting it done when no one else can. The idea of this aircraft is great but it has not been the workhorse the corps wanted and needed. I am sure you have seen a buddy or two catch a break and be help by this bird. I have flown on one once, and it fly’s like any small aircraft of that size. The plane has to be consistent, reliable, and meet operational commitments. The truth is this plane does not do that. We have aircraft now that if newer version of the aircraft where purchased, would be far better, faster, and less R&D cost. PFC I understand your fervor for the idea but this aircraft just doesn’t make the grade. When they call me back to go to the front line I pray that I see that old leaky Phrog (H46) coming over the horizon. She saved my\e butt when I was medevac’d. She dogged 2 RPG’s as we where flown to the field hospital. I personally have flown as crew and medevac’d more marines and sailors than I can remember. All I can remember about the Osprey is the funerals I have had to attend.

You sound like a brave young Marine and I hope you stay that way. Just remember blind faith in your leaders can get you Killed. If you don’t believe me, next Marine Corp Ball ask your gunny I am sure he has a story or two to prove my point.

Semper Fi PFCEM

There seems to be a lot of hyperventilation on both sides of the issue of the suitability of the V-22. Just keep in mind that the “S**tHook” had an extremely bad reputation at it debut and the F-15 was the same. The AC should be judged be what it is now and can be in the future. The “sunk costs” are already gone and the past is the past. Emotions should be left at home.

One aspect that seems to be missing from this discussion is that the Osprey offers new and revolutionary capability. It will invariably cost more to develop new technology than to simply use existing technology. The new technology will be less reliable than existing technology. The key is finding the right ballance between affordability and new development that allows for a modern and effective military now, and builds the groundwork for an effective an modern military in the future.

The debate in the congressional hearing seemed to be over the severity of the maintainance or safety problems. They should also consider how intractible these problems are and if they can be fixed. I recall there being safety and reliablity problems with AH64 in the Balkans and no one was calling out for the entire program to be scrapped…

Your right there has been a lot of excess talk about his airframe. My point really is the R&D and the bugs have been worked out of the H46. The upgraded composite model set and airspeed recorded the year it came out. Additionally the parts and supply pipeline is already in place. Everything has a debugging period but I have to agree with the idea of a mix of equipment make more sense than putting all your assets in one airframe.

Lets be honest here. This “oversight” was going to happen at some point. It goes without saying though, that the congressional haters of the Osprey were waiting for a couple to crash in Iraq so they would really have something to talk about. Instead, they are left with logistical problems having to do with PARTs reliability and availability and not anything having to with safety. A lot of what was said yesterday by the congressmen was inaccurate anyway.

The first F-111 deployment to RVN saw 7 of the 12 aircraft lost due to various issue, but that aircraft became one of the work horses of the cold war and first gulf war.

The V-22 is to early into its second life (post 2003 return to flight) to determine weather the V-22 will work or not. From what I have experienced over the last 5 years of flying on it, it is a very capable aircraft for special operations.

BL: The USMC is fully commited now to the MV-22. The last CH-46 will be retired in the east coast and the west coast will start later this year. As for the the CV-22, USSOCOM/AFSOC has to many allies on the hill for anyone to mess with the 55 aircraft plan for AFSOC.

The V-22 failed long ago. It is bigger than the CH-53K, yet it can lift only one-quarter as much and has less range. 50 have been scrapped after just two years of service. This is all at http://​www​.g2mil​.com

The Corps can just buy more UH-1Ys and CH-53Ks, or buy some MH-60S. These could arrive within months.

pfcem, you completely ignored what was brought up from this hearing, you completely ignored the facts, and resorted to childish (and bad) insults, which show your lack of maturity, but I’m use to this from the internet when people can hide behind their computers. So maybe you should as you said and I quote “Get a life & join reality.”

And reality says that… (taken from the article)

“The Marine Corps’ own reports on the performance of the Osprey in Iraq reveal that the Osprey was restricted to a very limited role due to its vulnerability to hostile fire, its lack of maneuverability, and its unreliability in the heat and sand of Iraq.”

Towns said the combat readiness rate for the Ospreys was “surprising and appalling.” Of the 105 Ospreys bought since 1988, he said, “only 47 are considered ‘combat deployable.’ Worse, we asked the Marine Corps how many of these are ready for combat on any given day. On the day the Marine Corps picked, June third of this year, only 22 of these 47 Ospreys were ready for combat. In other words, fewer than half could be used for combat on a good day.”

The man who, until recently was the lead analyst on the MV-22 at the respected Institute for Defense Analyses, went much further. Arthur Rivolo criticized the V-22 as a dangerous aircraft, saying the V-22 “would fail to meet basic airworthiness requirements” set by the FAA. The Marines’ commitment to the aircraft “represents a cynical disregard for soldiers’ lives in favor of supporting a blind allegiance to the cause of this aircraft.”

The Lt. Col couldn’t even counter these claims, he just called them a lie.

I hope you can calm down and actually discuss these issues if you decide to reply back.

As for the part of your post that seemed like it came from a decent human being… you said

“they are having some specific issues with operating in an environment foreign from what they were designed for which is FAR from “the best conditions”.”

I’m sorry but the V-22 was designed for combat situations, which can arise anywhere in the world at a moments notice, hot and dry, or cold and wet. This is anything but far, its right on top of it.

I look forward to you responding to these claims, and I hope your civil next time.

Oh, and as for the V-22 I’m all for its concept, but I strongly believe in its current form it’s a waste of money to field these just to have them break down and stored in a secret hanger somewhere.

We need to cancel production and put all the money into researching the problems and how to fix them. Once this is done we can begin testing the V-22 again and if it passes, go into full scale production. This isn’t to much to ask, or unreasonable. It’s just making sure that when we buy something, that it works fully as intended without needing any refits once its off the production lines

V-22 has been around a long time and as has several accidents and many fatal ones during the development. It is also sad that this aircraft cannot be armed to defend itself. I would think placing M230 chain guns on both sides which can be operated by pilot or copilot with helmet targeting working in tandem. Also, one 20mm Vulcan cannon hand operated from the ramp. This would be nice and at least equivalent to a Chinook. Unfortunately, that is not possible due to weight restrictions.

What I visualized was an aircraft that could do that and depart a battlefield regardless of the environmental conditions. Now, I think of the construction, because this aircraft seems overweight in the construction and the power plants way under power. I think this aircraft does need to be retired and the money spent on an ideal prototype using the V-22 model as the starting point. There is a lot of data on the performance and what type of frame will work with expectations. It is very much possible to look at the basic requirements and configure what is needed.

You hear more about the bad qualities of a new platform of aircraft than you do the good. Remember this about the V-22, It’s not NEW… I watch and worked on it in 1989 doing flight envelope certs at Pax River. I then came back in 2000 when the V-22 was grounded and worked with Bell/Boeing rewriting some 150 airframe inspection. My point is this aircraft was a civilian plane before being designed larger and heavier for military use. It doesn’t rake and stack with the transports needed for combat. The airframe was made from composite material to save weight, didn’t work did it? There is so much stress applied that it cracks and disbonds at will. Personally I’ll take a leaky Phrogg any day. Don’t forget about the H-53… USMC has already said they want 215 of the new H-53K, which should begin LRIP production early next year.

The V-22 is not an old airframe or design, the bugs should be out by now. I doesn’t need to be in militry service, there’s better platforms.

There is a pattern here — cancel V22, less F22, cut this DOD program, scale down that one, less missile defense .…etc etc etc.

All being done when we have more threats .…and the need for a dramatically bigger and better armed military

Surely it is clear to all of you…Obama wants more money for social programs and if that hurst the military “who cares”.

Besides the teleprompter will make all our enimies love so we have nothing to worry about.

We have developed a Plastic Generator/Motor that runs on 30# of batteries, generates no heat, almost indestructible, it has one moving part, uses no hydrocarbons and will fly several months with out landing. Two would weigh less than 500#.
They will remove 5,000# from the Osprey.

Mark,
amen brother.

I would just like to remind everybody about another “failed” weapon system from 1964 — the M-16. The concept was right on the implementation took some refinement. If we had killed the program and not fully developed it we would not have the weapon we have 45 years later.

Developing a complex weapon system is very difficult in a lab and on a drawing board and trying to duplicate a real battlefield environment is almost impossible. This weapon system will be modified and improved “underfire” and will become the workhorse of the Marine Corp.

I lived this as I worked on the Harrier program in the early 80’s. They were so many people that wanted to kill the program, yet through product development and a responsiveness of the manufacture to the needs of the Corp, we developed a great weapon system.

“There is a pattern here — cancel V22, less F22, cut this DOD program, scale down that one, less missile defense ….etc etc etc.”

There was another pattern before that already: Sink in as much money as you can find into projects all ambitious, high-tech and as extra-ordinary as possible. When you realise it cannot be done, ignore that, continue to pour money into it, be buddy with the companies and hope for a better day.

Frankly it astonishes me that people keep playing blind man and blame a government, that is actually trying to clean up some of that mess that has been going on for years, decades even.

I am not saying that Gates or the current administration are right on everything they advocate. But if they want to aim for the right project to cancel, they dont really have to aim that hard these days.

It should be obvious to any reasonable person that the aircraft (V22) is not the issue. The administration and the current powers in congress are diverting military funds so that they can appease the voters who put them in office. Entitlement programs are more important to them than the defense of our country and the blood of our servicemen and women. Why do we sit back and continue to let ill informed people like towns and his current stooge rivolo bash our military and tie their hands behind their back, then tell us to go and fight a war. Wake up america!

Hey President Teleprompter — when did you start using the nickname para ??????

OK all you experts…What aircraft are you going to put in it’s place that can perform equal to or superior to what the Osprey can do in vertical take off, hover and horizontal flight — distance, speed and altitude? The Osprey head to head regarding with helos in the same class of payload carry is far superior in horizontal speed, range and altitude. The two helos the V22 replaces are at their end of life. All of you demanding the program be cut know nothing about it. This program and aircraft perform at the highest levels. The problems being referred to are far in the past and were not due to design flaws but human flaws and those people were removed/fired for withholding vital engineering data. Read up on this before posting about old perceptions that are no longer valid or speaking of things which you know nothing about. Tell me how many aircraft have been lost in theater in Iraq and Afghanistan? NONE. Dangerous weather, dangerous terrain and a dangerous enemy. NONE LOST. NONE CRASHED. If you want to whine about overrated and cost overruns go over to any blog about the F22. And tell me why are we developing a VSTOL fixed wing now and not more fixed wing? Because vertical is the future of military aviation right now. The F22 is the money drain program. It does nothing significantly new for fixed wing. Plenty of fine and proven aircraft in the stable to call on for fixed wing missions.

About that H-53 — H-53 is old (1964) and does not perform the same missions as the Osprey and cannot perform the same missions as the Osprey without extra support aircraft for refueling more often than the Osprey would require. It also cannot match the speed of travel so it limits what types of missions it can do.

Instead of trying to think and decide on this aircraft yourselves, why not ask the warfighters who fly it and those who lives have depended on it’s performance in theater what they think? You all value the warfighter’s opinion right? Read up on what they think.

And anyone whining about a gun mount:
a) it replaces helicopters, only attack helicopters were designed with a forward gun mount. This is not an attack aircraft.
b) a 360 degree retractable gun mount is in development to stop everyone whining about it not having a gun on it. Google on it. Defense Tech has an article on it.

Go to an airshow near you, maybe there is an Osprey there. Then you can look up close at this beautiful, tough, workhorse the United States Marines are using everyday.

Here is the deal. It can’t do it.

–Terrible high hot performance
–cannot HOGE for RVL (dusty landings) with any payload. 24 pax? Try less than 10 in Kandahar.
–Cannot sling load (what idiot thought you could fly externals above 150 KIAS?), trust me even HMMWVs fly after 150.
–Cannot land close to target buildings, or to each other for that matter.
–Starts forest fires in North Carolina. (See 5 acre blaze in Holley Shelter 3 days after rain). Was that a Class B? Oh didn’t make the news? Strange I wonder why? Mark my words this thing is going to burn down Temecula, CA.
–Cannot defend itself for Direct Action missions, new belly gun cannot be fired on the deck. Plus it weighs too much, subtract 4 more pax please. (going to get crushed too, first real LZ landing)
–Too fragile, moderate unimproved landings that legacy aircraft could survive with simple patches require major airframes work on V-22.
–Going around the WEZ is easy my friends. Marines want to enter the WEZ. What now? Armor, guns? Subtract more pax please.
–Cannot fly in copter mode, thing overheats. Say good by to externals. (Don’t argue, saw it during DT Yuma, AZ Jul ’08)
–Did anyone forget about MOUT and VBSS, cannot do those either.
–No DiRCM yet, great system but over 600 lbs, subtract 2 more pax please.
–Are we at zero payload yet? I forgot.
Oh by they way there is the other price tag…
–New arty piece it cannot sling load (M777)
–New truck to put inside it cannot carry (too heavy for AFG)
–New Hangars at Miramar, because they do not fit.
–The 10 new AM2 matting LZs they built in OIF so it can safely land for GS missions.
–By they way, did you hear that they said the USN ships were made out of “inferior steel”, and that is why V-22s cannot endure on LHDs? (melt the deck worse than AV-8Bs)
–Above 10,000 MSL, some one wake up my dead pax please. (that is if the icing did not get us)
–STOP COMPARING IT TO THE CH-46! That is such Phrog burn. The thing weighs over 50,000 lbs, at least compare it to a CH-47F. Medium lift from a 50,000 pound aircraft is simply absurd. Maybe twice as fast but 1/4 the cargo and no where near the high hot performance. Numbers don’t looks so good now do they? BTW don’t give me that rolling take off crap. You mean like a plane? Call it a STOVL then, Call a bird a bird and a plane a plane shall we?
–We have not even seen the tip of the iceberg on operational costs. New aircraft are supposed to be easier to maintain (See C-130J), not harder.
–This is so wrong on so many levels.

Did the VMM-162 CO forget to talk about the LZ in the town of Hit? He almost trashed his section on the power lines they could not see during broad daylight. Ask Mr. Black, he was the FAC there.

I thought the kinks were worked out by now. One side says one thing, another side says something else. Wat is the TRUTH? I do agree companies that procure equipment to the military have gotten away with murder for years. Alot of times at the expense of Soldiers, Marines etc. Boeing is one. Colt..its pretty obvious they have the “in” somewhere. Another story for another day.

:::sigh::: Some people don’t know that they don’t know.

I have to point out that lack of perfection does not equal obsolescence. No matter the program, commercial or military, there is always room for improvement.

1. Trautman gets an “A” for effort but, truth be told, the Iran hostage rescue mission was a comedy of errors in planning and execution that may or may not have been mitigated by hardware. I commend the first chapter of Arthur Hadley’s 1986 book “Straw Giant” for a good overview of the rescue mission.

2. The Corps struggled with the Harrier for over 30 years. Despite herculean efforts and lots of smoke and rhetoric, the Harrier was, and is a failure. The Marine Corps should not make the same mistake with the MC22 if the data belies cost containment and sustainability.

@Para
I agree with you.

DOD did NOT cancel the Missile Defense programs, they simply went to “black” part of the budget.

Regrading the F-22’s, listen, the DOD has plenty of time to decide to continue/cancel the F-22 program down the line, the last one won’t run off the assembly line until 2011, so they have time to think about it. If they decide to go back to the 22’s, it won’t be hard to start the line up.

Over the past 2 decades, the US Military has been wasting more money on projects that don’t materialize, then projects that due. Put the fear of God into these companies, and I guarentee you you, down the road, we will get more bang for our buck. I agree with next years budget, we will get more from our coin, then we have over the past 20 years.

Perfect case is the Navy, how many freaking billions have we poured into the shipbuilding, only to get little in return? I mean come on. Finally, the Navy seems to be getting their butts in gear now, with their shipbuilding procedure. The DDG-1000 was a complete disaster, wasted billions, and now they went back to the DDG-51, which was a great idea because it is so modular, and easy to add on weapons (anti ship, anti sub, .ect). We will get to our 313 ship goal sooner then we would if we used the useless DDG-1000 in our fleet.

We have 283 ships in our fleet now, with 3 more coming before the end of this year.
1 — San Antonio Class destroyer
1 — Nuclear Submarine
I can’t recall what the third ship was, but I know their are three…

Let’s look at the FCS now, how many billions did we pump into that program, and what useful tech did we get from it? Nothing. So what did the DoD do? What they should have done in the first place, break the program into sizable chunks, and have the Defense companies kill eachother over it to see who comes up with the best ideas.…(competition is a very good thing in defense land.), and then let the DoD pays for what systems they want. Pretty simple, eh?

Some of you guys are making a big fuss, over nothing. This is good for our Military, long term. At the end of the day, our Military will be more powerful then it has ever been.

My 2 cents.

The Osprey will very soon cost more than 100 million each. The 11,000 dollar an hour operating cost will go up also as the airframes get older and need even more maintenance. The TRUTH is all these people defending the V-22 want a chunk of those billions of dollars. They have all invested years of their lives and bet big on this bird. They want to keep their job or want a job when they leave the service. It goes faster than a helicopter but that is about all you can say is good about it. When it comes into land where most helicopters are lost in combat it is just like any other helicopter. You can buy 5 helicopters for one Osprey. The speed advantage is hyped because it can fly more round trips in a given amount of time and so deliver more troops. But those 4 other helicopters you could buy destroy that argument using simple math. There are so many other issues but this is the argument that I think is important. Sorry for the long post.

As usual I have difficulty believing anything coming from a Dem regarding the Military. The mantra of cut spending as usual falls on any Military Project that may have a value. Lately according to Rep Murtha even head count as slim as it is in this WAR…will be cut! SO why not a valued airframe according to a good Marine Officer …who’s word I would value far above some hack politician!

NeoConVet,

Me? Actually I am a Conservative, who has this view point. Always be a Conservative. You need to look at the world now, the US is in a deep recession, do you think it is financially feasible to put more coin into the Military? I don’t think you want to bankrupt America. I was actually surprised they didn’t cut it more, which of course, I am happy they didn’t. I talked to financial experts and, they said the economy is supposto to turn around in Q4 of this year, I suspect the budget will be increased for 2011, when the economy turs around.

UPDATE: The third ship to be delivered this year is:
USS Independence (LCS-2)

In 1993 I visited the Sycorsky plant and they had a smaller verson of the CH53 they were testing to replace the CH46 hower since the V-22 program was in full swing the military never gave it a second look. However they are flying in some civilian capacity and doing quite well.

The Osprey project and all operational aircraft should be canned! Excuse me that would only be 22 of 105; send the 105 to pedestal way off in the back of Marine bases where no one will notice them or melt them. The project was a failure from the first design. The project’s poor performance, over cost, and schedule delays have been covered up by every Marine officer that was a Program Manger of the project. These Program Mangers have put the lives of our best trained combat troops in the world on a death sentence when they go up in this suicidal air craft. They killed 22 (if my memory is correct)of our best on a check out flight during the program, and that should have been enough to stop this farce of a project. The least these Marine Program officers can do is let our Marines have a fight chance when going to combat, and not transport them on this death trap. The only way they can save this project is to sell the project to the Iranians, Al-Qaeda, or North Koreans!
TCB

Back to MV-22 shortfalls please. BTW the Navy is still fighting Midway and that is why they are lost.

Great concept. Poor, overengineered implementation. Looks great in pictures. Looks horrible on the spreadsheets.
There is a lot of discussion about why it is important to support the troops with this machine. No debate about that, but why doesn’t someone stop and ask the same budgetary support questions about our automobiles first. If we stopped burning up all the petroleum to go places that most people don’t need to go, then we wouldn’t need Ospreys to fetch Marines out of the petroleum frying pans. (not to mention the per-hour fuel consumption and maintenance costs of all the cars of people driving to work to pay taxes to pay for Ospreys).

I worked on some of the very early development evaluations (cross-functional project lessons learned during testing of other planes) on the Osprey. I loved that plane. I was appalled at the complexity of the mechanical systems, though. If you want to go vertical, go vertical. If you want to go forward, go forward. Helicopter wings go in circles, airplane wings go straight. Trying to combine the two can be done, but cutting performance through compromise for any particular mission by half means cutting usefulness by 4 and increasing maintenance by 8. There are WAYYYY too many of these programs that get pushed by passionate people who latch onto a single idea as the only thing that will work, and they lobby it through CONgress until the money flows. Once the money starts flowing, they have bought supporters from around the parts-supply world. Ideas are like armpits, though, and almost everyone has at least two and they both stink. You shouldn’t get too thrilled with the first one you smell; there’ll be another coming along shortly. As soon as the Osprey is decom-ed, someone will find other workable solutions. As long as it is there, someone will bend over backward to make it work. Look how long the F-14 stayed around, and that (my favorite) was a maintenance PIG.

It is a perlexing problem, and my Corps did not help the situation early-on. Currently I’d hope there is on-going R&D being melded into the MV-22 manufacturing process. Does the whole program need to come to a screeching halt while airframes/power-plants are up-graded? The venerable Hercules went thru this process to arrive at the most dependable “lifter” since the C-3. Yes, combat conditions are what they are.….get on with solving the problems and meeting the mission. Semper Fidelis, up and down the chain-of-command! Herb “AB 26 C”

Oh, and that comment by Lt. Gen Trautman about the hostages in Tehran is totally a non-sequiter: The hostage situation arose from our installation of the Shah back in the ’50’s and his reign of terror. The current relationship between the U.S. and Iran could also be WORSE if we had rescued the hostages,(we might have ended up fighting the Russians in Afghanistan directly instead of through Paki proxies). Or, did he mean that we wouldn’t have trained OBL in Afgh if we had maintained a Shah-type puppet in Iran (to go with our other puppet in Iraq)? If so, how would Silverman have gotten his insurance payoff from 9/11?
The Middle East is a quagmire because it is the crossroads of every civilization’s history and religion and trampled trade routes, and our bumbling intelligence agencies have not helped make it any better. They have only worked to make profits for the corporations who want to either sell oil or sell weapons. So, it is no wonder that we now have the most expensive oil and the most expensive aircraft applied toward ‘freedom’.

The whole issue here is a balancing game between social entitlements or the growth of Socialism in our country and the cost of freedom. What most liberals fail to realize is that freedom is not free, and what good is entitlements if you must live in fear or possibly a dictatorship under big government.
It is not that difficult to vision if we look at the present economy and the growth of social entitlements.
We are far from the foundation and heritage of a once great democratic government where hard work, christian values, competition and being self-reliant was a cornerstone of our successes as a free nation.
If we continue to cut or to reduce military spending, then we must also reduce the overall budget of our federal government and that includes entitlements and new programs for those that are able-body.
If we forget our nations history, then we are domed to relive it, it is becoming so true today that I see much more financial and social problems for this once great country “Under God” where Christianity was once a cornerstone of our foundation.
Yes I am a Conservative but I am also a Christian first and very proud to be an American.
God Bless America and the Nation of Israel.

I joined a Harrier unit in 1975 and watched the same rhetoric as I am hearing now.
For those that claim the Harrier was a failure. I was with VMA-542 during Desert Shield/Storm. Our AV-8B’s flew multiple missions, every day, for 6 weeks. Our unit dropped over a million tons of all types of ordinance.
We had AC come back with bullet holes in the carbon fiber parts, it was patched and flying missons the next day.
Yes the program had problems, at the start, as does the V-22.
Problems that can only be found as the AC is used operationally.
The problems will be fixed and this AC will be as much a workhorse as the 46.

I just got to say first that the first poster “Lacy” is very good looking.

The V22… Not so good looking. Yes it may have a place for long range transport but to say that the V22’s would not have kicked up as much dust as the 53’s???? (That is the reason the 53 crashed) Maybe the General was thinking we may have had another plan?

Things went very bad in Iran because there was little to no training money during the Jimmy Carter years. That is what I believe attributed to the mission failure in Iran, not the equipment.

We are already at 20+ years of R&D. There is no where to go with engine power. It is a 6,100 SHP. (same engine as C-130J) It is a matter of disc loading. The only way to improve high/hot/heavy is to increase rotor disc area and they can not do that. It already does not fit on USN shipping among other reasons. They also cannot reduce weight which they have already done too much. Composites can only go so far. Furthermore parasitic weight increase is already on the rise and they are on the wrong side of the power curve, literally. The CV-22 actually has an appropriate compliment of mission systems unlike MV-22 to take advantage of the speed and range similar to the PAVE package (TF/TA radar, real time mission data, SATCOM, etc). But, the CV-22 was never intended for assault support the way the USMC does it. In other words they are just fine with taking less than 10 operators into combat. They are ok with single or limited mission set in AFSOF. USMC on the other hand needs something that can do everything. Fast-rope to external operations to Direct Action assault.

For Herb, I would not call AV-8B a success story. For the last 6 years we have crashed an average of over 3 a year. We just have gotten very good at putting it in a place where it can do ok. Give me A-10s and day, BTW going off the LHDs for them is over rated.

Rick, I think that is a picture of Avril Lavigne. Chicks like to use pictures of famous people who are better looking than they are for their profiles..unless of course Lacy is in fact Avril Lavigne, or I don’t know my female musicians.

Rick, the V-22 kicks up 3 times as much dust as 53s. They foul zones for many minutes after they land. Very problematic for large flights. It is a matter of disc loading…again. Their peak wind velocities are way worse than a heavier CH-53E. But, I think the argument would have been that the V-22 would not have needed a FARP site like Eagle 1. But as alluded to before, CV-22 with its appropriate compliment of systems could have put operators in, however neither MV-22 or CV-22 could have extracted everyone without a considerable increase in the number of aircraft. Not exactly KISS. On the other hand MH-53M PAVE LOWs of today (Before they were deceased) and CH-53Es or MH-47Gs could have done it. But lets be honest, the weather was terrible that night. That was probably the greatest single reason for the creation of the 160th SOAR.

@Jason:

Missile Defense “went black”? There’s 130 former MKV engineers in a building down the street from me looking for work, I think they’d have heard about it if BMD “went black”.

F22 can just “re-start”? No. There are electronic components that take TWO YEARS to build; if the buy ends at 187, then the factories that make those components shut down RIGHT NOW. And a factory that isn’t producing anything is a depreciating asset that produces no income; and private companies are not interested in keeping depreciating assets that produce no income. Look at the AEHF satellite; much of the cost of the fourth AEHF comes from rebuilding the chip factory to build computer chips from 1997!

Navy? Oh, please. The Navy started building a destroyer and then decided, halfway through, that they actually wanted a battleship. They couldn’t seem to understand why this would cost more–after all, it’s just a matter of putting new screenshots into the Powerpoint presentation, right? What do you mean “we’ve already completed welding the structure together”–just UN-WELD it!

FCS? Competition? Yeah, competition worked out SO WELL for the FIA program. Also next-gen space telescope. Also airborne tanker, CSAR-X, JLTV, GOES-R, TSAT…

DensityDuck, focus… V-22 remember? Not defense acquisitions on a whole. Lets be honest on another front, the Manhattan project would never make it through today’s mess either. Back to little USMC with no resources to waste.

Jason June 25th, 2009 at 11:27 am.

Jason (Mr. so called Conservative) is it reasonable for President Teleprompter to be spending a trillion on health care we don’t need, in a recession ???????

I was doing flight test when the F-22 was ‘selected’ wrong aircraft was picked. Period. Marines were bragging about the Osprey back then, it was a dodo then, still is now. But they put all their eggs in one basket.

Sometimes you stay with an ugly duckling and it turns into a swan. In this case, its still an ugly duckling. 20+ year old R&D and its a turkey. Unfortunately stupid decisions are going to kill young Marines and that is criminal. But, hey, as long as dividends are paid and the revolving door works, WTF.

Oh on health care, maybe you don’t need it being on the teet of the US government. Do you get Tricare? Try thinking outside your box or should I say cubicle. How is the weather inside the beltway anyway? BTW people talk about ABM like it is the Apollo program. It just gives the Navy and USAF something to do. There is a war going on have you heard?

Jesus, when this become a political debate? Yeah, I am a Conservative, donated my fair share of money to the RNC over the past 2 years. Referring to health care, it is retarded to pass health care in this environment. But, look at the end-game, if Obama is planning on doing what he is doing, let him. Why? Because he is going to cause a double-dip recession, starting next year, if he starts his Socialist attack on this country. When the country goes into a Depression, who becomes the Good Guys? Republicans. I said the economy will turn around in Q4, but if the spending continues the country will possibly go bankrupt.

Bankrupt = Republican’s take the Senate.

Don’t question me being Conservative, I have always been. And I will make my voice heard in 2010 and not on a website.

Tell me again who was in power the last time the budget was balanced, I forgot…

I want to talk about the plopter…

Vent your attacks on Libtards, not on one of your own kind. I realize you are pissed, so am I. Lets make in count in 2010

OIFOEFx4 June 25th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Oh on health care, maybe you don’t need it being on the teet of the US government. Do you get Tricare? ; and what is plopter.
I am sure what you are saying is interesting — but you “code language” make it hard to understand you

Yes… I do get Tricare, but I also have no problem paying for it either which is my angle.

Plopter = tiltroter… ie helicopter with props, that is what “we” call them. They are sort of a “plop” in our minds… or is it flop, I cannot remember.

OIFOEFx4…got punch some wholes in your post.

Based on some of the bullets, it seems like you are just talking about the MV-22 vice the CV-22. On the other hand you make some braod stroke points that lead me to believe you are talking about the V-22 as a whole. Anyway, herer you go.

“-Terrible high hot performance”

I would not say terrible…today for instance I am flying here in ABQ (5200PA, 30C). We have an ACL on takeoff of 6500lbs…far from terrible.

“-cannot HOGE for RVL (dusty landings) with any payload. 24 pax? Try less than 10 in Kandahar.”

I reference my previous point…every landing we make here in the HIGH DESERT of NM is an RVL/DUCE or as we call it, a brownout. Most of our LZ’s are at 6000+ feet MSL.

“-Cannot land close to target buildings, or to each other for that matter.”

Define close. 250 feet is close when you are talking about an aircraft with a 90 foot wingspan.

“-Cannot defend itself for Direct Action missions, new belly gun cannot be fired on the deck. Plus it weighs too much, subtract 4 more pax please. (going to get crushed too, first real LZ landing)”

True, the belly weapon cannot be fired on the ground, but the tail mounted .50cal can as well as other members of the flight, in the air or on the ground

“-Did anyone forget about MOUT and VBSS, cannot do those either.”

Did MOUT ops during the testing of the FAST ROPE/HOIST in 2006. No significat issues…FAST ROPE and hoist operations showed better performance that open area operations.

“-No DiRCM yet, great system but over 600 lbs, subtract 2 more pax please.“
The CV-22 has DiRCM (SLT) and it does not weigh 600lbs.

Marine pride should not mask the facts. The V22 has been given the highest priority from internal COC to be a sucess. It still has not done a urban desert night assualt on a point target. This is a combat assualt platform that cannot take men to the doorstep of 90 percent of our objectives. What else matters!

oifoefx4 has listed all its negatives besides the big obvious. I just sqeessed it down.

Marine pride should not mask the facts. The V22 has been given the highest priority from internal COC to be a success. It still has not done a urban desert night assualt on a point target. This is a combat assualt platform that cannot take men to the doorstep of 90 percent of our objectives. What else matters!

oifoefx4 has listed all its negatives besides the big obvious. I just compressed it .

Sad Day,
About 15 plus years ago while testing at Eglin AFB Fl, on the flightline we saw the original V22 take off after completing it’s tests. Sadly we were the last people to wave to this group of crew and test engineers when loading..as it crashed en-route to home in the Wash DC area. Crash investigation later found root cause was the two engines Rotors were hard-coupled and when one failed during transition flight it took the other out too. It’s too bad and very Sad that serious defect was not found earlier.

I also take exception with the General’s remarks to the question about “would the V22 make a difference on the Hostage rescue in Iran if it was available”. The answer is really NO! I was involved in and planed another Hostage rescue of that embassy personnel in Iran (late 70’s) and our findings were it would be a Suicide mission (i.e.several Lg cargo Acft landing in the city (sports)center, unloading Buses to pick-up that large number of hostages, then returning back to the large Cargo aircraft, then fly out, all done in under 30 mins) high probably of NO Success. Unfortunately they went with the other hostage rescue Msn with helo’s, and we know that ended in a failure too. So the general is wrong, we looked at it and it was a non-player!

Yes brown out, I have heard of it. OIFOEFx4 means I was in both for 7–8 months for 4 deployments flying 53Es. I did not find it very dusty in Kirtland last time I was there by the way. Actually there is nothing in CONUS that really is up to snuff. Do you couple for RVL? If so does it require HOGE? If So what is your ACL then? What fuel load? Best I can tell the MV-22 we flew with could not land closer than .1 nm or 285 meters in OIF and Yuma, AZ in flight over 2. How much is DiRCM (SLT)? I cannot recall what we added on the CH-53E. Wish you guys got the MH-47 for CSAR-X. I thought that it was the right bird. You have to remember the USMC does not have the pockets that AFSOC has. We have to do the gambit between SOC type missions to GS and everything in between. And I I have landed in the same place where V-22 land, where nothing happened to us and they punctured their right fuel cell with a rock.

What about starting fires in NC?
External loads without overheating the gearboxes? Saw that happen and it was only 85 degrees at night. Defense in the WEZ? No minguns now my friend, best “platform left” all you can.

I’m sorry but I have ridden in one of these bad boys and they operate here at that base i’m stationed and they are much much better than that crappy CH 36 and CH53. Those things only have 1 .50cal mounted to them too. These things aren’t attack aircraft. Thats that the Cobra is for. The V-22 is better then those two and should remain in active duty while they moth ball the others.

Oh and by the way. The Marine Corps version is better then the rest. Plus I’m in the desert. You talkin about only 85 deg… Those things operate here with no problems at 110 Plus degs.

We don’t couple for RVL…big sticks all the way down. However, our OGE up here gives us about 5500–6000 LBS (1+40 or 500miles).

Your DIRCM is the same one we had on our shi!!ers (Pavelow)…its heavy compared to the SLT DIRCM.

DITTO on the CSAR-X.

Fires, they happen. Ussually when the COANDA (exhaust deflector) isn’t working/on.

We don’t do externals in AFSOC.

Defense in WEZ…can’t go into it in this forum, but we have figured it out.

I miss the mini…but it is nice we will have it in the belly and a .50 on the tail.

Got it!
Explain me through 6500 lbs? Does that include combat crew, weapons, Ammo, personal body armor, buckets, flares, etc? In other words, is that in SCL (Standard Combat Load)

Are you going to fly the “big stix” in on a LLL dusty night? Good luck with that rotor wash…

DIRCM 299.3 lbs on us.

The Marine Corps has had a long history of liing about Osprey performance-not just “skewing the data”, per teh article.

And I’m sure that Lockheed and Boeing woud love to have teh taxpayers continue funding a viable tilt rotor commercial aircraft–
however–
while a tilt rotor aircraft might seem the thing, remeber that teh Sovierts had trouble with it, and if you just look at the basic layout, suddenly, you see the fuselage at 90 degrees to the rotors(vs inline with the load, like a CH47.) It works for conventional aircraft, where teh wings provide the lift, but for vertical take off, those wings have teh whole pay load working against it and have nothing to cojunter balance but stressed out rotors and motors and enginies.
Plus, the larger landing area requirement, and those engines blasting the ground are guaranteed fire starters.

That’s before we start doing all teh part revisions, which is part of any aircraft program, but this one is going to be a dilly, since we’re revising against fundamental prblems.I’d sy it’s time for the generals to forget this whole “Transformer Toy” concept and stick with something reliable, easily maintained, simple and cheap-in war, numbers count-not just “quality”-and teh Osprey has neither.

They have been trying to sell this aircraft to the civilian/military for decades.
In fact one platic model company even put out a model of it back in the 70’s. I know because I bought it.
If its been around that long and no one in the civilian avaition industry has never purchased one that is proof enough for me the darn things can’t do what the makers say they can.
More to the point, I’ve got a buddy in the Marine Corps who has three tours in Afghanistan flying Super Cobras under his belt.
And he says those aircraft are not just hated by the marines who have to use them, they are reviled as being nothing but “a death trap”.

I am curious to know just how much input Sikorsky had into thisreport? Becuase it is obvious if Boeing stops making the V-22 then it will have to be replaced by a conventional helicopter. Soooo there stands good old Sikorsky and company waving their hands like the class nerd saying we build helicopters yeah! All issues about the V-22 and the alleged Vulnerabilities can equally be applied to the conventional helicopter. But the V-22 speed cannot be matched by the conventional helicopter for getting out of harms way in a hurry. The V-22 will prove it’s metal and justify the investiment in the system. Let’s stop playing political footbll with out military personnel lives for the sake of profits. The V-22 is the system that will meet their requirements so let’s stick with it. Enough is enough.

Political_observer unless you wear gold wings on your chest you are woefully unqualified for this discussion.

I remember reading articles in “Newsweek” magazine written by so-called “defense experts” back in the early 1980,s in which then-new weapon systems like the M1 Abrams tank and the Bradley Fighting Vehicle were lambasted as unreliable and unneeded and we could “buy three old reliable M-60s for the price of a single M1” ad nauseum.These idiots disguised as “experts” suddenly shut up tight after Operation Desert Storm when both vehicles performed superbly and smashed the Iraqi Army in Kuwait. What do the politicians and media want our military to keep using equipment that is dated and will eventually wear out? What are we going to replace it with if they keep cancelling every project the military needs?

It makes no difference what anyone say to the chairman of this committee, he is just a puppet on a string, that comes from the White House Chicago Gang.
They do not want any more spending for defense until the purchasing problems are FIXED! You and I both know that will never happen. OB AMA don’t want the U.S., to have the best of the best military. Only to keep himself in office.

I live in Marana, AZ. The worst aircraft disaster, here, was when two of those things crashed and burned at our local airport (very rural), and 18 Marines died. Some lives could have been saved, but this was a secret practice run. Therefore, the local fire authorities had no time to respond quickly.

I have mixed feelings about the V-22. An innovative concept that appears to suit a mission that no other aircraft can fit. But it’s been how many years (not to mention dollars) and the technology still isn’t right?

I’m leaning towards the idea this is, currently, a money and life threatening sink hole and should be studied more on the drawing board. Not in actual practice.

I have a coworker who is retired SpecOps who has
personally been in one crash and two “unscheduled hard landings” in CH-47’s. That doesn’t deter congress from funding more and the Army/Marines from using them in large numbers. Seems to me a congressman can find fault in all military hardware if it’s not handled “nice”, but these are combat systems.
The V-22 is out there now and there will be teething problems, so fix them. The M-16 debut in Viet Nam should have killed the program 40 years ago with the logic expressed here.

Man helicopters are complicated… they drop out of the sky more than anything else in the military (mainly not from enemy fire). Your right the V-22 maintenaince is not going very well at the moment, there is no real problems with the actual flight of these aircraft anymore… beacause it was a tiltrotor we found out the hard way about “vortex ring state”. We have built systems into the v-22 to now prevent that, and also the crew is aware of its flight envelope. We should give boeing an ultimatum.… figure out whats wrong w.your design and impliment changes… i mean the goverment is the customer and they shouldnt be paying for products that arent quite working right. If you want to get technical about aircraft problems we can dig them up… because there are a few aircraft that had the same repuation or worse repuation than the v-22 in the beginning. Dont kill the program and waste 20yrs in R@D money that only throws your money in a black hole no end result…

Tony, if your friend was Special Ops then he most likely was riding in an MH-47 doing things that a MV-22 could only dream about.

Flying 250 knots straight line at 10,000′ is nothing to brag about when those SOAR boys are flying around AT NIGHT down at treetop level at 150 knots…and can land on a high ridgeline with lots of troops/supplies, suppressing threats like you wouldn’t believe.

But agree with you about teething problems being part of any new aircraft/technology. Except a V-22 maintainer I spoke with said that the top 10 items that break only account for 1% of the non-mission capable events. Everything that was supposed to last years, is lasting only months, and there aren’t the parts to replace them, which is why the improvised repairs are attempted.

Fix problems on current MV-22 numbers and buy a few dozen more. But at $11,000 per flight hour (that might drop to $10K, what a bargain) the Marines may want to consider other alternatives to round out the CH-46 replacement fleet.

The Osprey can really move when those rotors are down. It carries alot of Marines, now it has a gun. How reliable is it? Out of 10, how many are operational? Sounds like maintenance, having a difficult time keeping them in the air. So, wat is the remedy? I think JIMBO’s post makes sense.

Having watched aircraft integration into the services, one wonders why the same old story emerges everytime we intorduce a new aircraft. Nothing is perfect and refinement is part of the process. This blog mentions lots vunerability of rotorcraft but riddle me this Batman? What about the lives they save in CASEVAC missions, flown daily by the way. I don’t see any F-22s, F-18s, F-117s etc. pulling this mission. That’s right, they are not designed for that so their mission is different. Rotorcraft perform these missions well, extremely well. The amount of money poured into fixed wing / fighter aircraft to ensure mission/survivability of said aircraft is pretty substantial. When one puts money into less exotic things like rotorcraft, people complain. Remember, rotorcraft transport more than one or two people. Dollars spent here would evidently preserve more lives.

If you look farther back, the same arguments arose about the harrier program. It took time but they finaly got that ironed out, but there will always be some bugs in every system. before that they were claiming the huey was a dud do to its vulnerability and maintenance cost. It is a never ending battle. If it were up to me and a lot of guys I talked with in the field. The OSPREY should be a foward deployable SPECTERS, they can be fielded with helos, go high just ahead of them and clear the area. they do not have to have the heavy weapons the C130’s do. two or the bushwackers mounted on one side would have a definate affect from above to give fire support. They could also be deployed from from amphibs to support beach landings or at sea interceptions. They just need the right mission profile set for them and thier maintenance funding not to be redirected under the table by higher authorities to supplement thier pet pea projects which is normally the case. The OSPREY is a viable asset if it used as stated above. and as for the heat and sand, every piece of gear over there is having issues from it, not just the OSPREY. and I have current first hand knowledge of that fact as a Govt employee.

This is probably the first legitimate delay I have seen so far. This is something that is related to the aircraft’s performance, and not to the people or management issues. Safety is first… and this is the statement that should be seen here. Boeing can use this, but seems like they are like the great dog that has been beaten too much to realize this opportunity.

This delay says to me that safety is important, and they know where the problem lies and that they are working hard to get it fixed. This is not like so we have a strike where they don’t know when people will agree, or a supplier is making orders in Italian and stuff can’t be delivered because it’s in a different language. This is a problem that we should all be patient and be reassured that our safety is priority.

Happy flying.…

V-22 has been around a long time and as has several accidents and many fatal ones during the development. It is also sad that this aircraft cannot be armed to defend itself. I would think placing M230 chain guns on both sides which can be operated by pilot or copilot with helmet targeting working in tandem. Also, one 20mm Vulcan cannon hand operated from the ramp. This would be nice and at least equivalent to a Chinook. Unfortunately, that is not possible due to weight restrictions.

What I visualized was an aircraft that could do that and depart a battlefield regardless of the environmental conditions. Now, I think of the construction, because this aircraft seems overweight in the construction and the power plants way under power. I think this aircraft does need to be retired and the money spent on an ideal prototype using the V-22 model as the starting point. There is a lot of data on the performance and what type of frame will work with expectations. It is very much possible to look at the basic requirements and configure what is needed.

From memory, FCS was an all encompassing system that integrated all elements of the battlefield, new vehicles, new weapons for troops, MAVs/UAVs, etc. FCS was a lot of systems under one umbrella with a lot of money thrown in. Always thought that was a bad idea because there was not a clear goal. I do remember the spiral development pitch, which I thought was a money drain.

Now, we have a lot of partially developed systems and mixes of technology that really don’t go together. I think that was seen by Mr. Gates. I would think if the government is to throw money again, there should be a specific need, a complete plan, deadline, and termination checkpoints. Termination Checkpoint as defined as points where the government can shut off the fault or penalize the culprits. This may be harsh, but I believe that if we are going to develop a weapon, we need to finish it.

Wow… a lot to soak in… Apparently, this will go on for a while, but remember that these aircrafts are designed for specific threats and weapon replacements. F-22 is clearly a response to the SU-47 with its stunning acrobatics including flying backwards, which is possible with vector thrust. F-35 is clearly a response to the aging fleet of Harriers, F-15/16/18. F-22 is very impressive but has more limits in deployment than the F-35. Also note, only the F-35 STOVL has vertical landing, takeoff capabilities.

Overall, based upon the lessen threat of the SU-47. It is logical not to pursue F-22 for the more deploy F-35. One more thing, by choosing one and not both, this increases the likelihood of spares availability at a lower cost.


After all the years, this is still a good idea, but several problems, and unfortunately payload & weaponization is still a problem. Seems like many new ideas were added, and simplification basically was thrown out the window. Things like making the connections like making the wing sections into one uniform wing tilting with rotor part would be easier and reduce the complexity. With this can be made a v-wing as it tilts up the blades will be further from the ground. Changing the Landing Gears to Fixed and non-retractable. This would save a great deal of weight.

The more I think of this, the more I see a money pit. After 20 years of development, we are seeing the civilian market for this aircraft perform better than the military version? Worst of all that the airframe is not tweaked much. I would assume that aerospace engineers, trained in flow analysis and not much else, will see that the wing sections are huge factors in the performance. With technology of today, we can have a duplicate flight system with less weight than what it was 20 years ago. We can have a removable flight system as in a laptop. Most likely, there is a lot of technology added, but not going back to basics. If it’s military, they need it now and this is what it needs to do. If twenty years is not enough time, then how much time is needed? Remember the P-51… introduce in WWII? After first contract signing the factory was pumping those puppies out a year later. Two years later, and a few engine refits, they were escorting long range bombers. These days, by the time the contract is signed, the money is all spent.

I hear you Boomer (sir if THAT Boomer), and in a few years you probably will have a lot to say about how MV-22s are employed.

But I’m sure you know that CH-47D cost per flight hour in 2005 was around $6800 and back then a UH-60L was around $2700 (vs. MV-22 $10K). The new UH-60M and CH-47F should cost around the 2005 figures with improved maintenance and a few years of inflation.

A little back of the envelope calculation leads to these estimates, sir:

*MV-22: $72 million upfront flyaway cost and $10,000 per flight hour x 60 hours/month in theater = $600,000 per aircraft per month

*CH-47F: $36 million upfront flyaway cost and $6800 per flight hour x 60 hours/month in theater= $408,000 per aircraft per month

*UH-60M: $18 million upfront flyaway cost and $2700 per flight hour x 60 hours/month in theater = $162,000 per aircraft per month

Multiply these figures by 10 for a flight company (each with 10 aircraft) adds another zero to each figure yielding $6 million for the V-22 company, $4.1 million for the CH-47F unit, and $1.6 million for the UH-60M unit PER MONTH.

Understand that the Marines need speed and unrefueled range to go ship-to-shore and for some distant area of responsibility flights. But for shorter flights, why wouldn’t Marines be better off using helicopters more capable than the UH-1N?

FCS manned ground vehicles and V-22 are somewhat in the same predicament in their attempt to deploy forces inland early. I won’t belabor the point that the Army could have bought about 11 BCTs worth of FCS armor (3500 armored vehicles) for what the Marines will pay for their MV-22s to get nothing but light troops to shore.

However, the FCS logic fell flat in this respect. While you need some lightweight armor to deploy by air and provide a credible (Stryker isn’t) ground deterrent until sea deployed forces arrive, you don’t need 15 BCTs of medium armor…maybe just one medium combined arms battalion per modernized heavy BCT, or maybe 5 total medium armor BCTs that are far more capable than Stryker/LAV III BCT/MEU equivalents. The rest can be 80,000 lb updates to heavy BCT equipment.

Similarly, a Marine Expeditionary unit might need just 10 V-22s to get to shore repeatedly for any initial assault where 10 Chinooks and 10 UH-60s would make the ship-to-shore trip once and then support locally at a fraction of the cost/logistics (360 gals per fill-up for a UH-60 vs over 1200 gals per V-22).

Helicopters also would have greater high/hot and external load capability, easier and more dispersed shore maintenance, and closer proximity to forward Marines for QRFs and CASEVAC.

At current flyaway costs a notional Marine Squadron with 10 MV-22, 10 CH-47F modified w/ folding rotors, and 10 UH-60Ms w/ folding rotors would cost around $1.26 billion to procure. A squadron with 30 MV-22s would cost $2.16 billion for procurement, or 170% the upfront flyaway cost.

But the real expense difference would be in monthly flight hour costs of $18 million for 30 MV-22 vs. $11.7 for a squadron with 10 MV-22, 10 CH-47F, and 10 UH-60M…a 35% reduction in recurring cost per hour of flight.

In reality, you probably would discover that you could shift more flight hour burden to the helicopter fleet for most shore missions thus saving even more money. Let’s say you plan on using 25% of flight hours in the MV-22, 30% going to the Chinook, and 45% flying the cheapest UH-60M.

That ratio would result in a cost per month for 1800 hours equaling approximately $4.5 million for the 10 MV-22 (450 hrs), $3.7 million for 10 CH-47F (540 hrs), and $2.2 million for 10 UH-60M (810 hrs) or about $10.4 million a month vs. $18 million for 30 MV-22s flying the same 1800 hours.

I now realize Marines use 12-ship MV-22/CH-46 squadrons which are about half the size of an Army aviation battalion which was the way I approached the analysis. So another way of looking at it is that two Marine squadrons with 24 total MV-22 flying just 1440 hours a month would cost $14.4 million or about $4 million more per month than 3 squadrons: one with 10 MV-22, one with 10 CH-47F, and one with 10 UH-60M.

More aircraft (30) flying more flight hours (1800 vs 1440 hrs) for $4 million less a month, with far less procurement cost…and probably using a similar or less deck/hangar space aboard Marine ships. Sounds like a no-brainer.

Sure the UH-60M would carry fewer Marines but the greater aircraft numbers and the CH-47F would make up for it. 24 MV-22 carrying 20 Marines (heavier body armor/center belly gun/ hot/high) = 480 Marines in one lift. Ten aircraft of each carries 200 Marines in a MV-22, 300 in 10 CH-47F, and 100 in 10 UH-60M for 600 Marines in a single lift.

And of course if you throw a 60% MV-22 mission capable rate in the equation and 80% rate for the helicopters, suspect the lift per mixed-squadrons-alternative is more than a little in favor of the 10/10/10 mix.

Now about that EFV… ;)

OIFOEFx4
Grow-up you sound like a real jock who played football with out a helmet. It make no difference if someone has Gold Wings we are all in the same game and when we bleed we all bleed red. Give a me break.

“Got it!
Explain me through 6500 lbs? Does that include combat crew, weapons, Ammo, personal body armor, buckets, flares, etc? In other words, is that in SCL (Standard Combat Load)

Are you going to fly the “big stix” in on a LLL dusty night? Good luck with that rotor wash…

DIRCM 299.3 lbs on us.”

OIFOEFx4,

Not to get into specifics in this forum, but 6500lbs is middle of the road.

You have to understand that if we are departing from an airfield, with say, a 4000″ runway, we could easily take off weighing 57000lbs. Now, depending how far we are going to do the infil, and what sort of infil it will be, and what sort of refuel options we will have, will dictate what our ACL is. The big take away is that we have flexibility that no other aircraft has…!!!

I know, “it depends” isn’t a good answer, but when you are talking about an aircraft that makes use of its helicopter qualities and airplane qualities, you are really comparing apples to oranges if doing so in the context of what other helicopters are capable of.

As for the dustouts…we will fly big stick dustout landings at 0% or 100% illumination. We do it night in and night out here at Kirtland. Needless to say, the copilots we graduate are VERY good at doing it.

We must have similar DiRCM…our system weighs 263lbs.

What is so good about the osprey? Seriously? Why not produce more parts for the CH53E and use it more often? The 53 externals more, flys faster, and carries more internally. Maybe it is just the fact that I worked on them while I was in the Marine Corps but it seems like they are just an all around better aircraft. I work for the army now as a contractor in Afghanistan and even these soldiers sware by the 53s. I don’t see the point in wasting money on building an aircraft that can only do half of what they already have. Instead the government should be putting more money towards the 53s. Just my opinion.

Sorry, I didn’t mean fly faster, I meant out maneuver and out fly. Just wanted to clear that up.

I find it interesting that the Commanding Officer of the unit that just got sent to Iraq with the V-22 seems to luv the airplane. From his “unplanned” (I think he was heard to say this is a waste of time) remarks he seems to be a straight shooter. If he’s going to put his ass on the line and say that the planes doing its job, I’m willing to believe him.

Everett Tsosie,

This is 2009, not 2001. The V-22 has NOT had “several accidents and many fatal ones during the development”. In fact if you compare its developement to that of most helicopters its saftey record is in fact quite good.

The V-22 is NOT a gunship. The gun system developed for it (it is hoped/planned that V-22s deployed to Afghanistan will have said gun) is plenty.

I was an aircraft electrician working for Bell Helicopter on the V-22 and an Army Artillery officer. The V-22 fixed “problems” that led to crashes and no matter what they say, it was NEVER “pilot error”. The cost is way too high and there are alot of ways to save money by redesigning, rebuilding and assembling it. But defense contractor’s with “cost plus” contracts don’t want that.
Bottom line, it has to be able to perform in battle under intense enemy fire to sustain the program. It is designed to handle hostile fire by isolating systems in the building process.
However, the V-22 is perfect for the concept of battle and getting troops and equipment in and out quickly. But the current cost is not worth it, in my opinion.
Until we change a few things with it as well as how business is done with defense contractors then we will keep having the same problems.

“It would have been a successful mission and we probably wouldn’t be where we are with Iran today,”

Yeah!!! and if a frog had a glass a– it would crack every time it hopped. These guys tickle me with the what if scenarios, heres one for ya, if the CIA hadn’t plotted and overthrown the elected leader of Iran and installed the Shaw we would never have had a problem with Iran in the first place. Coulda woulda shoulda, what happened in the past stay in the past. The botton line is this, the V-22 is not as good as advertised, I think it’s a flying death trap. I hope DoD scrap it.

The Shaw? Like, a relative of George Bernard? I wouldn’t have thought we’d have problems with him.

****

Paul: Don’t you know? EVERY crash is due to pilot error. If the main spar cracks in half and the whole plane folds up like a sheet of paper, well, he was pulling too many gees! Pilot error! SURELY you wouldn’t think that these are dangerous machines that will kill you if anything goes wrong–I mean, there’ve been actual studies showing that flying is safer than walking!

You really can’t compare operational cost of the OSPREY at this point because it is still in a R&D stage which drives the cost beyond inservice cost due to it still being backed and supported by the contractor. I’m in agreement that 53’s or Blackhawaks would be better suited for transporting troops. But as I pointed out, if employed properly the OSPREY could be devistating as a weapons platform operating with helos. There are a number of good points brought up here to make it lighter so that it could carry more. it could also be more streamlined to make it faster and lighter. It would be useful to infiltrate and support SPECOPS and foward deployed troops. and it would cost less to operate and a faster reaction time to the zone being foward deployed than waiting for a C130 gunship. The ideal of the V22 is sound, just not the way they currently plan on using it.

Gentleman,
For one I have been in the V-22
But when a fellow Corpsman (medic for you army types) died do to your maintenance/de-bugging/engineering issues, and then the second pilot was too much of a chicken S**T to land it without the whole area cleared. The man I referring to should not and would have died if the V-22 worked like it was supposed to. This man devoted his life to saving others and lost it to bad equipment.
Gentleman the human fact is what is really at stake here and should be the only thing that truly counts

Can you be more specific…“the whole area cleared”. Cleared of what…?

If there were obstructions that needed to be moved, what make the V-22 not work like it was suposed to?

Sounds like it was the pilot and NOT the aircraft.

I sort-of wish we had canceled the V-22 instead of the Crusader and developed a different replacement for the CH-46. Yet we have spent so much time and money on the V-22, and it does seem to work works to some degree. Yet CH-46s are literally falling apart now and we don’t have time to develop another replacement.

Regardless of the project the trend lately has been to cancel, cut, cancel, cut, cancel, and cut military projects.

Spend, spend, spend everywhere else.

The liberals in power are going to be the death of us. God, it seems like everything is going to hell.

As with many discussions, this one goes on and on. facts are that there have many more fatalities due to helo crashes in country than from V22’s, Maintenance is a big issue with helos just as V22’s, and it’s only going to get worse. Ask anyone who deals with logistics or maintenance. While maintenance costs go up every year, the maintenance budgets on older equipment go down every year because the funds are being re routed to the newer systems. happens every time in every branch of service, and our guys carry the brunt and consequences of it. The ch47’s fell prey to the 53’s just as the hueys fell to the blackhawks. The Trident submarines lost money so that the piece of junk seawolfs could get through ship building and make it to sea, f15’s and 14’s fell to 16’s and 18’s, and it continues today. Fund shifting is depleating our forces so that the new and not always better stands out in front. The OSPREY has a good use, but it’s not as a helo replacement. and loss of maintenance funds is going to continue to get our guys killed, and the current administration is going to speed up the process even faster.

V-22 Canceled

I predict the V-22 just got canceled because the IG is looking for the 40 missing MV-22s. It seems the Marine Generals have been hiding damaged MV-22s for years and not reporting mishaps. Here is more http://​www​.g2mil​.com/​V​-​2​2​m​i​s​s​i​n​g​.​htm

Boomer, I would hardly call the Seawolf class a piece of junk, it was just a victim of the usual DoD politics. All of the Ohio class subs are still in service in one form or another.

Only definitive work on EAGLE CLAW is Col Kemo Kyle’s “The Guts to Try.” Failure a combination of factors, but simply adding a great A/C, not that the V-22 is or could not be, would not have turned that day. Like Aspin’s lament for “armor in Mogadishu,” knowing what we are about and why we are there more important than things. Desert One led to Program 11, and that is its best legacy. Leave the bird in R&D until it works. Will make good SOF platform someday.

Does any bean counter care what makes up $11,000 per flying hour? Every cost, sunk or marginal for those airframes actually flying over the total fleet whether it fly=ies or not (in depot, down for parts,.etc. If you want to sink the navy, ask the steaming hour cost for a class of ship knowing that sometimes few are actually steaming due to crew rest, overhaul in shipyards (sometimes 1–2 years downtime). Military spending on sunk cost are always insane compared to civilian / industrial world. ‘Mission essential” accepts that it took $5bil in WW II to complete Manhatten Project (also $5 bil for B-29 that dropped it (A Bomb). Success of B-29 and A Bomb was priceless…

I agree that the V-22 is a great concept, however in its current configuration it is an aircraft mishap waiting to happen. Some of which have already cost lives. If this aircraft is to ever come to fruition, it has to be redesigned. I really think that the design should be opened up to other aircraft manufacturers. Maybe a new set of eyes at the problem may help. I am not opposed at the concept. I am opposed to the current air craft and design.

Perry,

The almost 60, OOOO flying hours without a mishap would say otherwise. The last loss of live on this aircraft was in 2000. Since then the “guts” of the aircraft were completely redisigned and the root causes of all of those mishaps/fatalities have all been addressed/remidied.

What “problem are you talking about”. The biggest problem that I know about is reliability of parts…a redesign of the aircraft by “other aircraft manufacturers” won’t do anything for our biggest problem.

NEWS FLASH!!!

The aircraft has already come to fruition…there are 100+ in service.…

I personally work on the osprey and find it to be to say the least “nice” aircraft. Its not larger than the 53k though, and although it can fly almost anywhere, its up to the pilots discretion, the problem that we have with the osprey is the supply of parts, no wonder we only have less than half up aircraft out of the total amount of osprey available. It wont make any sense to stop the production after all that has gone into this program, thats like writing the decleration of independence and then saying F*** it and moving to a new country.

First it is Parry, and the situation happened at stone bay less than 4 months ago and one of my comrade died do to this aircrafts failures. A second aircraft had to be called and that pilot was to much of a wussy to do a combat land and load to save this mans life. In addition i was stationed at MALS 29 so, if your just siting back and number crunching your not getting the real global picture. There have always been hanger gueens but for this aircraft it has gotten out of control. So next time you want to ask about a not on the record mishap/F*** up just let me know. Because i know the range detail that were there.

Paul,
I am not a aviation expert but I did sit next to a Navy Helo Test Pilot for a trimester and had several interesting discussions over the Osprey. The worst fatality they had during development, the nototious Vortex Ring State (VRS) case, was solely pilot error (multiple times). The aircraft was not flying the briefed profile, it was decending in excess of three times faster than was allowed when it transitioned to Vertical Flight (and over three times faster than any helicopter is allowed to descend ever), and once the VRS was entered, he then added power (which only makes it worse, ask any Helo pilot, and it is really bad on the Osprey) as opposed to re-entering horizontel flight (per NATOPS and which is actually easier and safer than recovery from VRS in a Helo). So yes, some (but by no means all) accidents were pilot error.
IMO, The biggest problem with the V-22 has is that it is neither a fixed wing aircraft nor a helicopter. It does some things that helicopters can’t and can’t do some things a helicopter can, it also does things that fixed wing aircraft can’t and conversely can’t do things fixed wing aircraft can do. It is a compromise to meet the stated, admittedly ambitious and some would say excessive, operational requirements which frankly, no helicopter comes close to meeting (although the son of ABC concept, the X-2 holds promise). It was designed to operate from ships so frankly, the fact it is not an exceptionally good high hot aircraft (which helo is) doesn’t mean much other than it is not especially well suited to the Afpak theater (which aircraft is?). It was designed for a different mission, much as the fact that the F-22 wasn’t used in Iraq doesn’t mean it isn’t useful.

Kipling wrote a stanza I never understood until now:

When you’re trapped in a burning osprey on Afghanistan’s plains,
because in flight the V-22 failed to remain,
jus’ roll to your M4 an’ blow out your brains,
An’ go to your gawd like a soldier.

I’d like to see Bell-Boeing take 24 combat loaded superfans to an Afghan-like LZ in an osprey to show us how safe this bird is. Any takers?

*required

Spam Protection by WP-SpamFree

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement