Cyber Can Kill SAMs

DC2 Jennings July 6th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

I don’t agree with Colin’s remark about the F-35 being superior at SEAD than the F-22. The way I hear it the F-22 is more stealthy than the F-35, by a large margin.

But back to the main information.

Didn’t the Isrealis use cyber warfare against the Syrians when then blew up the nuke facility? I am sure we have a lessons learned on that mission.

DC2

dave July 6th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

Also, cyber attacks exploit holes in cyber defenses … which can be fixed. 

Air-to-ground missiles from an F-22 exploit more permanent things like physics and stuff-being-blown-up. There will be no overnight anti-JDAM software patch to fix that.

Cyber attacks might work, but it sucks if you are relying on the enemy not to install their latest patch.

DensityDuck July 6th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

Charles, I haven’t seen anyone talking about “Rods From God”, except for A: sci-fi readers nerding out about the idea, and B: actual engineers explaining why it won’t work.

As for your “And the thought…” paragraph: Give me a break. You’re honestly saying that someone whose ass isn’t directly on the line won’t do a good job? That’s spitting directly in the face of dozens of UAV operators.

You “may” be a Luddite? No “may” about it, man.

DensityDuck July 7th, 2009 at 1:12 am

…are you seriously using the “some of my BEST FRIENDS are negroes–uh, UAV operators” argument?

“So you are saying that they have as much skin in the game as a grunt looking back at an RPG?”

You’re right, we should install claymore mines under the seats of the UAV operator booths, because otherwise they just aren’t MOTIVATED.

You know, you’ve talked like this in other threads, and I really don’t get it. I’d think that a zoomie would at least understand how technology makes things possible. 

You talk about drone operators “not having any skin in the game”. But was it really better back in the old Wild Weasel days, when the conops was “fly around and wait for someone to launch a missile at you and hope you can blow up the radar before the missile hits”? Is that seriously how you think the military should operate?

Cole July 7th, 2009 at 8:39 am

DD said:…are you seriously using the “some of my BEST FRIENDS are…UAV operators” argument?
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reply: Some of the Soldiers I admire most are enlisted and warrant officer Army UAS operators, who are paid substantially less, yet often work 6–7 days a week and many hours a day in combat zones. They don’t believe that what happens nears Vegas, stays near Vegas. It isn’t a temporary tour flying unmanned aircraft. It is a military occupational specialty or warrant officer career field where a career of expertise is developed. They deploy repeatedly to theater with their ground brethren, where they can:

- Monitor automated launch/recovery to reduce mishaps and assure scarce UA availability
– Conduct non-satellite UA handovers with other controllers in the same local unit to alternate launch/recovery responsibilities, save bandwidth, and assure unity of command
– Locate ground control stations at airfields/field sites or next to ground Command Posts where they can fully coordinate/collaborate with Army commanders/staffs who have the most current local information
– Support tactical reconnaissance surveillance target acquisition and report that information responsively to address local commander’s critical information requirements and targets
– Respond to local ISR and target cueing support and combat information
– Exploit habitual relationships with local contingency forces such as QRFs and Army manned-unmanned aircraft teaming and cooperative engagements
– Support one tactical unit in Direct Support or several units in General Support to better familiarize themselves with:
o local mission requirements,
o enemy/insurgents operating locally
o troops and support being supported and able to cue or respond rapidly,
o local terrain and weather, to include local airspace concerns
o tactical timelines/constraints and latest time information is of value
o civil considerations, tribes, and cultural nuances of a smaller familiar area of operations. 

Army UAS operators realize that the corner Police precinct and patrolling local cop has better response time and awareness of the local situation than the FBI agent servicing 10 counties. The local cop also is there to protect and serve a mayor (commander) LOCALLY, not FBI HQ in Washington (CAOC). 

While there is a place for the FBI, just as there is a critical mission for Air Force UAS, don’t recall a single FBI Director ever asking for Centralized Control, Decentralized Execution of all local Police throughout the nation.
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DD said: “So you are saying that they have as much skin in the game as a grunt looking back at an RPG?”

You’re right, we should install claymore mines under the seats of the UAV operator booths, because otherwise they just aren’t MOTIVATED.
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reply: Heh, let’s control all Police helicopters remotely from FBI HQ in Washington D.C. Boeing already has their Little Bird. We’ll just hook up a few hundred Ku Band links through satellites to D.C.

Could there actually be any advantage in knowing the local Police, the local street layout and airspace concerns, as well as the local criminals/neighborhoods on the ground? Nah, you just call the FBI and they will happily show up for a few hours and coordinate with their local field office before moving on…probably before you are done needing them.
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DD said: You know, you’ve talked like this in other threads, and I really don’t get it. I’d think that a zoomie would at least understand how technology makes things possible
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reply: Heh, if we build enough nano satellites, we could technically fly the ENTIRE AIR WAR via satellite and no Airman would ever need to deploy or pilot an aircraft in combat…
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DD said: You talk about drone operators “not having any skin in the game”. But was it really better back in the old Wild Weasel days, when the conops was “fly around and wait for someone to launch a missile at you and hope you can blow up the radar before the missile hits”? Is that seriously how you think the military should operate?
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Unfortunately, there is a continuing trend that funding for less “skin in the game” seems to always “aim high” (stealth expense, invulnerable F-22, Creech, Global Strike, 4 month deployments, etc.) while the ground component gets their attempts to have less skin exposed go unfunded, underfunded, or cancelled/delayed.

But beyond that, seems to me that Army leadership continues to let its Soldiers down. The Army must take immediate steps to:

1) Remove every Soldier from the battlefield as possible, and replace them with satellite controlled robots controlled from Disneyland…close to CENTCOM HQ…or Hawaii would also work for PACOM.

2) Create a fleet of robots whose job is to protect local villagers/routes, interact with them, and rebuild their infrastructure…or maybe we can do that from the air with UAS? Big loudspeakers? Cropdusters dropping I-Pods on happy Afghan kids…oh wait forgot about that electricity thing and missing internet cafes…

3) Spend billions to make all armored vehicles invisible to radar…after all the Russians and Chinese may have a version of JSTARS in 2020!

4) There is a vast OH-58D gap! Those aircraft have excessive hours IN COMBAT (as opposed to airline pilot’s flying club) and soon will begin dropping out of the sky if not replaced immediately by aircraft costing many times as much, in equal numbers, and stealthy…oh wait that was Comanche….or cost $12 million (ARH) which is 1/6th the price of a V-22, or 1/19th of a 2010 F-22…nope that didn’t work…can they get rubberband-powered props that cost as much as a Air Force Airman’s annual salary and flight pay/bonuses? Come on, throw us a bone.

5) Homeland defense! The Russians might drop paratroopers from their Bear bombers or terrorists could infiltrate into the U.S. via Piper Cub so we must field Army helicopters that can respond at 270 knots! Wait make that supercruise!

6) Modify all Army aircraft so they can be flown at 15,000’, above IR SAMs, AAA, and other pesky ground fire…never mind that you can’t see anything down there

7) Immediately claim dibs on a dedicated CSAR fleet because Army aircraft are clearly going down in every conflict at a greater rate than other component aircraft

Spend $120 billion to create a fleet of 500 robotic ground refuelers that scurry about the battlefield refueling thirsty M1A4 Abrams tanks and AH-64Gs since they only have a few hours endurance

9) Create a Global Strike capability to drop Soldiers from space, fly them via hypersonic transport for immediate response from the U.S. within minutes to take out Osama bin Laden and other high pay-off/time sensitive targets…never mind that the adversary may mistake it for a nuclear attack

10) Centralize control of all Air Force airfields and missile silos under the land component commander…after all they are on the land!

11) Use taxpayer dollars to advertise our role in cyber warfare and UAS to attempt to gain a larger share or DoD lead in those areas…

John-Michael July 7th, 2009 at 10:21 am

Is it not widely assumed that the Israelis used just such a capability to disarm the Syrian air defense network when they took at the plutonium reactor in 07?

Sam July 7th, 2009 at 11:07 am

Speak as someone named Sam. I fond this highly disturbing. I think I will be going home now.

Daniel July 7th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

ok ill tell a uav operator they are a remf, literally you cant get much more rear echelon than vegas. when i was sitting in the JCC of al-haweja iraq those for off uav operators look a hell of a lot less soldier to me. you want to tell me that the guy in the air conditioned trailer is the same as me im in 120+ degree heat picking up body parts?

Daniel July 7th, 2009 at 6:07 pm

there’s only tension when somebody spouts off at the mouth. some push buttons some pull triggers when button pushers think they are trigger pullers there’s problems.

know your role.

Mark July 7th, 2009 at 7:00 pm

Charles D.,
Shack.….It is just as well that these folks went totally off the subject, foaming at the mouth about remfs, infantry, etc as Gen Schwartz’s comments were too close and too much.
Besides, these “Audie Murphy’s” enjoy their ranting & raving about the lack of “social justice” between the services…of course, they ignore the fact that the US military is an all volunteer force and the AF folks are reporting to their duty location as ordered…they do not get a choice as it’s the leadership’s call on how & where they and their weapons are employed. I would bet that the fighter pilots doing duty as UAV drivers would much prefer to be beaming around the AOR in a Viper, a Hog or an Eagle. That said, these guy’s heart felt indignation is entertaining, so let’s not discourage them.

Cole July 7th, 2009 at 10:07 pm

If you read the link transcript that “What do I know” posted, on page 20 (during questions)there is an interesting tidbit back on the cyber subject:

“Secondly, there are potential offensive applications of cyber that also are essential to the way we do business. Traditionally, for
example, we take down integrated air defenses via kinetic means. But if it were possible to interrupt radar systems or surface to air missile systems via cyber, that would be another very powerful tool in the tool kit allowing us to accomplish air missions assigned by the Joint Force Commander. We will develop that – have – capability and we’ll certainly mature both of those aspects, offense and defense, as we go forward, and we will provide
that via a new numbered Air Force, 24th Air Force, to whatever architecture is ultimately approved for national cyber responsibilities. And again, I think that will all be a little clearer to us within a matter of weeks.“
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Also thought it was interesting when Gen Schwartz mentioned that some new UAS payloads create so much information that additional analysts will be necessary. LTG Deptula made similar references to adding 2500 more USAF analysts today in several articles just to analyze views that are up to 2.5 mile x 2.5 mile mosaics.

I wouldn’t think it would take that much analysis even on a wide field of view or with a SAR picture to spot the air defense systems depicted. They sure don’t look like they would be very good at shoot and scoot ala SA-6 either.

But did anyone note the “Assassin’s Mace” article on “Wired” that supposedly is being developed by the Chinese to replicate 10,001 air defense radars all around the actual one to defeat HARMs? I was also somewhat surprised to learn that HARM won’t fit internally in F-35, but SDMs do glide a really long distance, and maybe they will get that stealth cruise missile to work. Anyway, wonder if that Assasssin’s Mace will work as well as GPS jammers did in Iraq?

BTW Mark, note the smiley face…normally not a sign of heartfelt indignation. I was having too much fun making fun of some USAF policies to be indignant…

Also, returning to a serious note, General Schwartz made a great point that Airman sharing convoys with Soldiers will carry that experience with them throughout their career. Suspect some of them will be in the Cdr’s office asking why all the enlisted guys are in Afghanistan turning wrenches and doing launch/recovery while the officers are back home with mama. Right now it isn’t as much an issue because contractors are doing a lot of it.

Louie Labadie, MSgt USAF (Ret) July 8th, 2009 at 10:51 pm

To LtCol Phillips and DensityDuck, et al.

This is absolutely crazy. Being a retired AF SP and Aviator (30 years), the Colonel is correct there is NO substitute, to your own skin looking down the barrel of any weapon system, trust me it is a hell of a motivator, I say that from experience.

Second, not all AF Aviators are Officers and YES it is very true that the enlisted corps is the backbone of ALL services and those men and women do work a lot more and for far less pay than the officers.

Third, on MOST important, ALL of these discussions are focusing on personal perspectives. The Colonel knows (I am sure he does) that no ONE element of the modern battlefield is the “Fix”. It is the combination of ALL services and ALL weapon systems and their operators that is what makes our MILITARY so much more advanced and effective than those of other countries.

At the USAF Senior NCO Academy (Which is attended to by all services and many of our allies) we discuss the very fact that each service brings to the battlefield their experitise and equipment in order to accomplish the MISSION.

So PEOPLE, take off the blinders and realize that the word TEAM means “Together Everyone Achieves More”.

The effictiveness of our TEAM will ALWAYS depend on EVERYONE not one weapon system.

Taking pride in one’s service and/or weapons system is great, but it is a forest NOT a tree.

Now is your turn to rip into me, have fun, I am extremely thick skined like all NCO’s old and new.

HasBeen July 9th, 2009 at 3:35 am

No argument from me. It takes all services and requires both techies and grunts on the ground.

I’d emphasize that I want whoever is controlling day-to-day operations to be spending time with the grunts and locals on a nearly daily basis. You cannot understand our current battlefields unless you do that.

That doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the genius flying the UAV as much as I do the grunt carrying the M4 — but I’ve had enough of commanders who relied on data streams without being out in the field and being screw-ups without ever knowing they were.

Gordon July 9th, 2009 at 6:02 am

Depend upon technology…I would have to believe based upon what I have read and been told, cyber warfare is only as good as the satellites we have orbiting the Earth, without them, we will be blinded. And we all know, at least China and the US have the ability to knock out orbiting satellites…there may be others who have the ability but are mum on the subject. Once the satellites are inoperative, concentration on ground line communications would commence along with the destruction of power grids…this is all hypothetical but it seems a logical tactic by an enemy. Our cyber technology seems to be vulnerable and an easy target…if the system goes down, what then?…flag signals, Morse Code with a light, carrier pigeon?

S/F Gordon

clyde July 9th, 2009 at 9:05 pm

Well, here’s my deal!

You’ve got the DoD trying to ban ALL MP3 music players and ANY digital mass storage device on all DoD installations, because our security shits cant’ handle it, while the insurgents still use ipods and cell phones to touch off IEDs.

The DoD hasn’t got he brains for “cyber warfare”.

Any kid playing Marilyh Manson can outwit the DoD, so, give it up.

It’s too “hard”.

Plus, computers are just a “force multiplier”.

Hard to tell whos eforce they are multiplying, but, they can have their uses, provided:

1) You know computers.

2) You know that it’s bombs and bullets that kill, and not computers.

Stephen July 10th, 2009 at 6:09 pm

“One F4 driver told me that air combat is a knife fight.“
… I disagree.
from D. Russ.

“Air combat is decidedly not a knife fight. It is a kill from a distance.” again, from D. Russ. 

Mr. Russ, I disagree w/ your first comment and agree w/ the second.

If the F-4 driver flew over Vietnam, he was hobbled by the need to visually ID his target, engage initially w/ a suspect AIM-7 system, which failed well over half the time, close in for an AIM-9 kill against a family of more manueverable MiGs, having to manuever to get a tail shot because of seeker limitations, and perhaps having no gun,(’til the E model came along.) then it looks and I suspect feels alot more like a knife fight than a gun fight.

But that was then.

Today, with better missiles, sensors, and support, ideally the kills will be beyond visual range. While all current ‘fighters’ have a gun, it’s primarily for defense in the air to air arena. Because there’s a lot of high quality, relatively cheap aam’s out there, it’s better to avoid getting in their envelope and just bring the jet home rather than relying on the gun to make sure the jet gets back to a runway rather than in the weeds.

Dr. Rocky Termanini July 12th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

The Technological advances in the last 25 years are in fact, far greater than the sum of all the technological discoveries inventions since the beginning of time. Let me give you an eye opener analogy: give your mobile to Apostle Peter and tell him, “please talk to Jesus, he is calling you from Palestine…” can you imagine Peter’s amazement?…well, cyber technology is at its dawn, and Cyber Wars will be logarithmically more lethal and strategic…the Pentagon Cyber Command Headquarters one day will monitor the world and track every hostile move and operation. By the way, we gave Internet to the world on a silver platter, and we now need to keep something to ourselves. We need to protect our young generation and homeland. The world is biting the hand the feeds it and enough generosity with our enemies.
I do believe that autonomic robot fighter planes (in the near future, say 15 years) will be programmed to store exact instructions from the Cyber Command Headquarters. The incoming Cyber War will implement invisible robot armies (in the millions) that will be launched like a virus rain to infect all the critical infrastructures of the enemy has. It is very dreadful and scary.
The future trajectory shows that Internet is going become our universal computer. Cyber War is counting on The rule of thumb: if it is activated by a computer, then it can be penetrated.

CHRIS August 14th, 2009 at 5:08 am

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN CHINA KNOCKS OUT OUR SATELITES

AND OUR GPS IS USELESS??

CHINA SPENDS BILLIONS ON SATELITE WARFARE…

WE BETTER WAKE UP

Colin Clark August 27th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

LewFoo,

If memory serves, that article was about a concept and its possible application. It was the AF Chief of Staff, Gen. Schwartz, who said the country possessed the nascent capability of taking out SAMS using cyber.