Murtha Questions Army Camo

Murtha Questions Army Camo

UPDATED: Adds HASC Call for Standardized Camo For ALL Services

Rep. Jack Murtha, spurred by conversations he’s had with troops in the field, wants the Army to make sure its camo works as promised. My colleague Christian Lowe at Defense Tech follows uniform issues closely from his days covering the Marines and he’s not sure the Army should make any change. I’m agnostic but think commanders should have the freedom to pick whatever camo pattern works best in the the environment in which they are operating.

Ironically, the House Armed Services Committee has taken the opposite approach. I got an email July 10 from the head spokeswoman for HASC, Lara Battles, noting that their version of the defense authorization bill calls for “standardized” ground combat uniforms. The committee’s report says the kind of unique camo that Murtha would promote “a tactical risk in theater, especially for those assigned to combatant commands or as individual augmentees who may be wearing a different uniform from those they are serving with in combat.”

Also, the HASC report language says that the committee is “concerned” that the use of unique service camouflage uniforms means “increased costs and production inefficiencies.” The report also argues that “service-specific battle dress uniforms
magnify the challenges and costs associated with procuring personal protective gear and body armor that conform to the design
and coloration of the basic uniform.”


This is what Christian says:

No one really understood why the Army picked the sort of old-school loden colored camo. Especially since the service had already developed the MultiCam pattern with Crye Precision and Natick.

And isn’t that what it all boils down to? Everyone wants MultiCam. “Spec Ops guys get to wear it…why can’t I?” I even scoped out some photos of Air Force PJs sporting MultiCam during a deployment to Djibouti. And practically every cover shot from our friends at Tactical​-Life​.com features a MultiCam clad “operator” firing the highest speed shorty carbine around.

Look, I like MultiCam like the rest of them. But I also understand why the Army did what it did. They spent millions of dollars and lots of time studying what would work best in a range of environments with an eye toward making the Soldier’s loadout easier — one functional combat uniform for a range of environments. MultiCam was tested alongside the current ArPat (I was at Army Times Co. when the service was deciding the pattern and was following it closely with my friend Matt Cox there) and several other options and the ArPat camo won out. It was new. It was revolutionary and it was unpopular. That’s what makes me think it might have been the right choice.

But I’m willing to be convinced otherwise.

Also, we don’t have a ton of cash lying around, and some in the Army argue that the service has spent billions fielding the new uniforms and other gear in the pattern. Unless it sticks out like a sore thumb, why spend millions more to inject another version? And keep in mind the flaming hoops the Army is being forced to jump through as a line inserted by one congressman forces them to evaluate all these uniform alternatives. Nothing’s going to come of it, I guarantee you that. But Petraeus, Casey and Stevenson will have to placate the Democratic bull by saying “that’s a very good idea. we’ll spend time, money and resources looking into it for you, but we’re still going to come up with the same answer…”

I liked the congressional intervention on the M4 carbine issue, but I don’t see the sense in this one.

Here’s the Military​.com story by Bryan Mitchell:

The Army is examining the possibility of replacing its current digital Army Combat Uniform with a different model for troops being deployed to Afghanistan following a Congressional directive contained in the latest war funding bill.

The move could mean a drastic change of combat uniforms for the tens of thousands of troops most likely to rotate through the country in the coming months and years, but it’s not entirely clear if the order will lead to new uniforms or a return to the battle dress uniforms the digital versions replaced.

The move in Congress was prompted by Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.), chairman of the House Appropriations defense subcommittee, who said he was first made aware of the issue during a visit with a group of noncommissioned officer Rangers serving at Fort Benning, Ga.

Murtha queried Army leaders and learned the concern was not reserved to a handful of Georgia troops. Similar sentiments had been voiced throughout units with experience serving in Afghanistan.

“The reason is that the current uniform has been primarily designed for a desert combat, like in Iraq, and obviously the terrain is much different in Afghanistan,” Murtha said in an e-mail to Military​.com.

“I spoke to both General Casey and General Petraeus about the issue. They also have heard the same thing, said that the Army is looking into the situation, and that funding is available for new uniforms if the Army decides to go that route.”

The cantankerous Pennsylvania Congressman is a lighting rod for criticism but has often used his considerable influence to push the services into action on items he views as critical to the troops on the ground.

In the mid-2009 wartime funding bill he inserted unambiguous language to force the Army to examine an alternative to its new combat uniform – at least for Afghanistan deployments.

“Soldiers deployed to Afghanistan have serious concerns about the current combat uniform which they indicate provides ineffective camouflage given the environment in Afghanistan,” the bill states. “The Department of Defense [must take] immediate action to provide combat uniforms to personnel deployed to Afghanistan with a camouflage pattern that is suited to the environment of Afghanistan.”

Congress ordered the Army to provide a report on its progress by Sept. 30.

The Army declined a Military​.com interview request, but the Army’s top logistician said in a statement the service is looking into Murtha’s demand.

“The Army is reviewing the report language on combat uniforms in Afghanistan that is contained in the FY09 Overseas Contingency Operations conference report,” Deputy Chief of Staff (G-4) Lt. Gen. Mitchell Stevenson wrote. “Once the bill is finalized, we will work with the conferees to address their concerns. The Army looks forward to working with the Congress to meet their intent.”

The Army made a dramatic change in uniforms in 2004 when it shifted from the Desert Combat Uniform and Vietnam-era Battle Dress Uniform and black boots to a year-round digitized camo uniform with scuffed tan boots.

The uniform has received mixed reviews from Soldiers who think the camo pattern doesn’t match desert backgrounds or woodland ones, but Army officials contend the color and pattern best match a range of environments.

The Marine Corps was the first service to introduce a digital patterned combat uniform, providing both a woodland version and a desert one depending on the environment. Marines are authorized to wear either uniform in Afghanistan depending on their operations area.

The ever-popular MultiCam pattern designed by New York-based Crye Precision is gaining some institutional credibility, with Army Special Forces troops donning the pattern in certain operations in Afghanistan and Air Force pararescuemen wearing a MultiCam “combat system” during a recent deployment to Djibouti.

But with the Army spending millions to switch to an all-in-one pattern not too long ago, switching to a two-uniform system may be too costly in time and resources.

The Army digital uniform cost approximately $88 when it was first deployed. Assuming a replacement would cost a comparable amount, the Army would need $35.2 million to re-outfit 40,000 Soldiers in Afghanistan.

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Rep Murtha wants to ship the new “Murtha” pattern in the new F-22 “Murtha” from the “Murtha Airport To Nowhere”. This guy has no limits to his grabbing attention and empire building.

Uniforms are one of my MANY pet peeves — military folks have a weak spot towards having the coolest uniforms. They tend to want a new medal and a unique uniform to show that their job is special, etc. Many years ago the AF issued leather flying jackets to improve morale — now you can see personnel officers wearing their leather flying jacket to the office. Every few years the military has to have some new Heritage Coat or camoflage pattern or something. I recall going to the Air Force Space Command headquarters building several years ago — I was the only guy in there wearing a blue uniform. Everyone had flight suits on — and I did not see a set of wings on anyone.

Hopefully we will not waste more millions of dollars changing uniform patterns AGAIN just to stroke the ego of some member of Congress. Hopefully we will not waste money changing from 5.56 mm ammunition back to 7.62 mm ammunition — change for change’s sake.

We cannot issue everyone several patterns of uniforms for various environments. Just pick something that is pretty good for several environments and stick with it.

Please fix “it’s/its”.

****

Charles: Remember the berets-versus-helmets-versus-caps kerfluffle?

“Rep. Jack Murtha, spurred by conversations he’s had with troops in the field, wants the Army to make sure it’s camo works as promised.”

Its, not it’s.

Otherwise, a well-written and fascinating article.

Density brings up a point that I would have mentioned if I had remembered — the Army berets issue!! OK so the Special Forces got their green berets (certainly one of the least practical hats ever invented) and the AF PJs have their blue berets and so of course some general decided that it would raise our low morale if EVERYONE had a beret. It was probably too expensive to improve the chow or improve the assignment process or whatever.
And OK so I got too happy with a grammatical mark — it’s just a mistake I make once in a while. It’s not gonna make you think less of my opinion, is it?

My favorite Beret Story was from the Air Force Security Service back in the day. They wanted a distinctive beret for their special troops armed with radios and typewriters and wouldnt let it drop or so they said. The Uniform Board finally gave in but said that the only color they would authorize was Pink. The request was dropped after that. Granted this was only a story back in the day. It taught me the lesson be careful what you wish for in a uniform. Wishing for a Congressmen to interced on behalf of your uniform is never a good thing.

Charles: I was talking about the original article, like Andrew. I’ve learned not to bother criticizing the grammar and spelling of comments! ;)

what does murtha get out of this?

I was a “camouflage engineer” for the Army back in the 70’s at Belvoir R&D Center, BRDC, and did design and analysis on vehicle colors and patterns, uniform colors and patterns, camo screens and dozens of other camo applications and technologies. My team compared all the multi-spectral technologies used by the world armies and came to the conclusion that it is not possible to even visually camouflage for all regions for all seasons and for it to be affordable. Furthermore, the requirement to provide near IR, far IR and radar absorbing properties (think MTI) is counter to fundamental physics because the design requirements conflict; there is little synergy. By its very nature, camouflage is a huge logistics burden and in the last 40 years nothing has really changed in that regard. Because, at that time, the recognition of the futility of developing multi-spectral soldier and vehicle camouflage the Camo Lab at BRDC was disbanded and R&D funding was terminated. Multi-spectral sensor technology has advanced to the point where ground application camo and stealth cannot keep up with it and the R&D should only be expended for very special applications and strategic systems; Pershing and Lance were one such special application, THAAD and PATRIOT could be another. It is interesting to note that in the visual region ALL colors and patterns, at 300 meters, integrate by the human eye into a single homogeneous color…olive drab! It is also interesting to note that armor camouflage is only of value when in defilade and that when moving the motion and dust raised is as big a giveaway as jet contrails. Also, dust and oil fog layers on a vehicle surface change the IR emissivity to the point where it becomes a near black-body radiator.

Indeed, in urban-combat situations, it might be better to wear blaze orange so that you’re easy to identify; it’ll cut down on friendly-fire incidents!

I am a retired Marine. I do not know about the other services but we always had to pay out of our own pocket for uniforms and replacements. No survey. The GOV gives a small amount once a year for uniform allowance, but it does not cover the cost unless you have a desk job and only wear out the seat. I never liked the idea of some non military bureaucrat making decisions what is best (cheaper) for me when they don’t do my job. Bring McNamara back, he was good at that! I like the current Marine cammies which work well in the field. Because they have a green and desert, when not deployed for uniformity sake, they wear desert in summer and green in winter. Never liked that or the sleeves up or down regardless of weather conditions, just the time of year.

If it was up to me, all uniforms would be “Field Gray” and you could draw region and season specific camo if you were in the field.

All uniforms tend towards being gray after a while (especially AF blue ones) and perhaps they would actually match. Many times I went thru my closet to get rid of blue hats that no longer matched my light weight blue jacket. Or tried to find blue pants that matched my Class A jacket.

Recent trips to AF bases have had me rolling my eyes when I see people walking by with a combination of mixed camoflage patterns. People have one pattern uniform but another pattern jacket! They might have one pattern uniform and be training with another pattern of “battle rattle”.

Jack Murtha is the ear mark king. On the other hand he is a decorated combat veteran who cares deeply about the soldiers in the field. I am not questioning his motives here.

My question is an old one but remains germane today even more so– why would the Army and the Marines have different camo when they are fighting in the same environment?

We just saw a huge purchase of new AF BDUs only four years ago. I mean I can see how combat environments change. But eyes don’t change. I think changing camo right now is an appropriations shell game.

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

All politics aside, fielding the multicam uniform accross all of the services would be the smartest thing the DoD would do since the Pentagon was built. Initial cost would be high but the savings in the long run with all of the accessories will save BIG $$$. Check out sample camoflauge images at their site: http://​www​.multicampattern​.com/​g​a​l​l​e​r​y​.​h​tml

Bottom line: this uniform will save lives on the battlefield, period. The DoD and Congress need to think “joint” for any future procurements i.e. F-35, weapons, comm and battle uniforms…services can retain their identity in their dress uniforms. It’s time we modernize our way of thinking. 50–100 years from now, it’s going to be this way, why not implement it NOW!

Chief K, USAF

Well said. It’s an investment we need to make now, not later. Also, I feel like having our Armed Forces organized into silos, AF, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, and Navy seems behind the times. Why not organize them as different parts of the same organization like Israel’s Tsahal?

Different forces want different BDUs and their own berets. Maybe they should be uniform…excuse the pun.

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

I got an idea for a new and fancy uniform for all to blend in EVERYWHERE…G-string bikinis!

Michael C; There are only a handful of folks that wear their skin well enough to use that uniform.

I think that the pattern is being over analyzed considering what they actually look like after a month or so in the sun and Rocky Shoals and Chief K have it right. NOTE: What works in the Northwest will not work in the high mountain desert or the Saudi sand.

I got out of the Army in 2008, spent 2 years wearing the ACUs and I can surely say they do not blend in with sh!t, out in the field we easily noticed guys who were in the woodline, they stood out like ghosts!! The ACU pattern is only useful if we decide to occupy the moon, since that is the only thing it’s all grey pattern (don’t be fooled that is has green in it, it doesn’t) blends in with. Multi Cam is the best camo pattern I’ve seen yet, but of course the Army will never adopt it, that would make too much sense.

I’m from a prior generation. In Vietnam we wore light cotton ripstock in OD. Some special units managed to get Nam leaf pattern and everyone was jealous.
For the last 3 decades I’ve been comparing camo patterns best for the Southern Nevada and Mojave Desert area which runs from desert scrub and creosote to pine,juniper, and cedar forest areas. For what it’s worth, the best uniform overall for this varied environment, both day and night, is faded OD. And I’ve compared patterns from around the world.

Rocky Shoals and Dale have it right. Camouflage is a massive waste of money; faded OD or old USAF Sage is the best for worldwide service — and it’s far cheaper.

Camo may be high speed — but the showboat issue will not keep you alive.

Is it true that if there’s black in the pattern it shows up on NVGs?

I don’t have any experience with the ACUs so I can’t really offer any informed opinions. (I have wondered about noise discipline with the velcro type fasteners that appear common to it.) I do question the zippers. I was a Redleg during the transition from the old cotton starch uniform (with buttons) to the permanent press uniform (with a zipper). I remember them to be problematic if the pants zipper failed while in the field. Unless you were unusually experienced with needle and thread, such a failure meant an open fly. Anyway, I also remember the transition from the old OD fatigues to the woodland camouflage BDUs. (Particularly the “jungle fatigues”) I noticed that the OD coloring was often more difficult to detect during the twilight and night periods. I found that very surprising. Naturally, the “jungles” were more comfortable than were the BDU. However, the decision was made and that was that.
Prior to fielding another new uniform, I would like to see it tested (by a number of deployed line units as opposed to small special units) in varied situations. This means urban as well as rural. Iraq as well as Afghanistan.
For the fellow using the proposed F-35 JSF as an example of utility, I don’t claim to be an expert. However, I do know enough history to remember that aircraft (and practically any major weapon)that are designed from the outset as “all-mission” tend not to do any one mission very well. The same lesson might be applied to uniforms.

Go with a new version of Multicam and make multiple material types available to soldiers.
Multicam should be made of Cotton/Nylon C/N
All the Multicam I’ve seen has been 50% Cotton/Polyester (C/P). The old 6 color chocolate chip pattern desert uniform was made from a 50/50 C/N twill. ARPAT is 50/50 C/N ripstop, twill is more durable.
I wore 100% cotton ripstop BDU’s in Desert storm (wore out and tore quick throw away at end of deployment) and the 6 color chocolate chip twill, and 50/50 C/P BDUs. The C/N twill was cooler in day heat, warmer in desert night cold than either type of BDUs, fabric kept it’s life better than N/P in desert and was ideal with poly coat liner underneath if you needed lightweight extra warmth.
Pictures and monitors don’t always tell the tale correctly but from my observations the Multicam appears to be the best all around. ARPAT may have looked good in picture or digital comparisons to the people that tested it but in the field the Multicam I saw had it beat.
50/50 C/N Twill is the most durable of any material used. ARPAT C/N ripstop is a little cooler in the heat but less durable and colder at night.

Plus when someone comes rudely into doorway at night they tend to be more intimidated by Multicam, 6 color desert or tigerstripe than woodland camo or Marine digital. The very last on the list?.… How intimidated could they be with someone in Gerber Sweetpea baby puke green pajamas.….……In that situation they need to see the US Army tab (hard to read in poor light) and M4 with optics (hard to see with a good krylon paint job.:-)

Considering that the Marines, Army, and Air Force all just fielded new uniforms in the last 6 years or so, NONE of them should be fielding new uniforms for at least 10 years. Use what we have, and focus money on things that need money. The effectiveness of camoflage is so subjective, it would be a shame to have Slappy Jack Murtha forcing the Army to waste time and money on OPINION, not FACTS.

I agree that uniforms need to be a joint fielding decision. Each service can customize unit patches and headgear for utility uniforms, and continue to have branch-specific dress uniforms. These are the times when I wish each service chief and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs would send knuckleheads like Jack Murtha an official request/response to mind their own business. The VSOs would back them, and things like this would die on the vine.

I’m an infantryman serving in afghanistan right now. I was in the first unit to ever be issued the new army combat uniform back in 2005. I and my fellow soldiers have been wearing it for over 4 years now and I can honestly say it’s horrible. The first sets were not durable at all. The velcro is not tactical at all, it wears out after a while of washing and ripping off name tapes, and the crotches do nothing but rip out of these uniforms. We have been issued the FRACU (fire resistant version) and honestly there is not much difference in durability. They still rip. Now as far as the pattern goes, I would love it if we were invading a country completely covered in pigeon shit, but we aren’t. In wooded areas, soldiers stick out like sore thumbs. Even at night time, soldiers are more easily visible. In desert environments it is a little better, but only at distances. Not to mention, the soldier looks like shit when he/she wears it. The U.S. Army should take some tips from the Marine Corps when it comes combat uniforms.

Multi-cam all the way!

Some Pentagon Army Staff flunky probably earned a Meritorious Service Medal for convincing the “Bosses” that the BDU wasn’t good enough after 20+ years of service. It’s not what you where but how good of a warrior you are. The Army should stop re-inventing the wheel and get back to the basics. Stop worring about appearances, and start worring about results.
Thomas Earley
Master Sergeant
U.S. Army 1982–2004 Retired

I spent most of my time in the pre-ACU Army and was fortunate to ETS shortly after first donning this disastrous uniform for the first time. For once (and I can’t believe I’m writing this), Murtha is right.

The ACU tries to be all things to all people, an all environments, but ends up failing everywhere. I remain convinced that it was developed for 2 reasons only:

1. To one-up the Marines. “Hey, they just came out with digital camo uniforms.… so let’s do them one better.”

2. To make the rear-echelon commandos feel better about themselves. I.e. instead of having to watch all their buddies doing great things on TV (and wearing DCU’s) while hanging out in the Pentagon wearing BDU’s, now everyone gets to look like they’re fresh off the battlefield.

It is about time that in CONUS in permanent facilities that every one wear dress uniforms and quit pretending they are Capitol Region Commandos.
In OCONUS Theaters of Operation the proper camo uniform for the terrain and season should be issued.
By the way, in 1991 in Kuwait we did not get desert cammo uniforms until we were literally getting on the plane to return home! Fast forward to 2005. We did not get the Army ACU uniform issued until 3 days before we reported to the Green Ramp for our flight to Kuwait to wait for C130s for intra-theater airlift. So much for Army uniform policies.

The hell with all the useless attempts at camouflage-of-the-week. Just be bad-a**. Soldiers should wear a standard black leather jacket, white t-shirt, levis, leather belt, sneakers and carry switchblades — unless they are assigned to Washington, D.C., where they could wear bid coveralls by Oshkosh By Gosh!

All Infantry should be issued Harley-Davidsons, too. When we’re in your town, anywhere around the world, you should know it and worry.

The Army has spent millions (if not billions) to design a camouflage uniform that camouflages against nothing. In a woodland enviroment you stick out like a sore thumb. As it does not work in the desert either. Whoever came up with that pattern should be shot. Most of my uniforms are unserviceable because the velcro on the sleeves are shot. My BDUs are still in great shape and I use them hunting. I saw the pictures for MultiCam and they do look like it is more versitle than the ACU. However, who going to pay for it. NOT ME.

Wally said it perfect. the Army needs to look at the Marines and basically copy them. These ACU’s are garbage! Everyone hates them. That is unless all you do is sit behind a desk in the air conditioning. When I am outside working all day I dont nothing but sweat like crazy. GO BACK TO ROLLING THE SLEEVES! Also does not help that we wear a black beret that looks completely ridiculous. GO BACK TO THE PC ONLY! I just dont understand why the Army did all these changes without thinking first. Get rid of these crappy ACU’s and trash the beret in combat uniforms!

“Also, we don’t have a ton of cash lying around, and some in the Army argue that the service has spent billions fielding the new uniforms and other gear in the pattern. Unless it sticks out like a sore thumb, why spend millions more to inject another version? ”

The uniform does infact stick out like a sore thumb. try wearing it in the woods, you practiacally glow. when ever we did any type of training in the woods it was always really easy to pick out the guys in ACUs. and for the record i think they look cool as shit and i was excited when they came out. but i wouldnt want to be caught in a fight in say Korea with them.

in a jungle with a decent enemy this uniform will get alot of people killed. i just hope im not one of them.
its always easy for people who dont have to do the actual blending and fighting to say somthings good enough. trust me this isnt.

If “don’t ask, don’t tell is changed to “yes I am”, then but the complainers in black G-strings! hehehe

Uuuh so what do you mean grey camoflauge doesn’t work in the desert? I better test it in a green forest.. can you see me now..? can you see me now?

I’ve been doing camouflage research for over thirty years, starting in 1976 at West Point and continuing long past my retirement from the Army. I produced the first “digital” design in the 70’s (very misleading term) and influenced designs for the Army, Marine Corps, Jordan and Afghanistan, commercial hunting gear, visual mitigation of public eyesores, and continues to this day with other organizations. My work proceeded from a doctoral degree that emphasized human visual performance and from years of successful RDT&E.

I find myself in rare agreement with Rep. Murtha; for years I have pointed out that multiple camouflage patterns hand the enemy an intelligence signature. But bureaucracies invariably seem to regard camouflage for clothing and equipment as a fashion statement rather than a tactical measure. (Serious regard for camouflage depends on the likelihood that the sponsor will be compromised and killed, which is why I like working with snipers!)

I believe we can do better than any of the measures available today, including Multicam (a good measure, but improvable). But we need to refocus from “cool” to “effective.”

Timothy R. O’Neill
US Army ®
Alexandria, VA

Soldiers should be outfitted with the best pattern for the environment, regardless of cost! All military personnel in the same combat theater should were the same optimum pattern. In the heat of battle, in an amush, in a sniper attack it is very important to know who your friends are. Different uniforms contribute to friendly fire incidents. Congress, politicians and staff officers should provide the Army, the Marines, the Sea Bees, Para-rescue and anyone else engaged in ground operations the best pattern for the environment. Pilots, if you do find yourself punching out in “indian country” you may want a little camoflauge too (I know Army chopper pilots do). Cost and logistics should be that last items on the list. Let’s pick something affective, functional and comfortable and give these kids in fighting for us an edge… the biggest edge we can.

“…ArPat camo won out. It was new. It was revolutionary and it was unpopular. That’s what makes me think it might have been the right choice.”

Someone please explain to me why being unpopular is an advantage?

There are a lot of good comments here, and some down right sorry ones. I’m not a fan of Murtha but he is right about the need to get rid of the Army’s current fatigues. In reality I would prefer going back to OD green and plain Khaki for desert. I would prefer them somewhat paaterned after the new style with pockets on the sleeves and shirt tucked in. But as far as unconventional forces go, we wore multiple patterns on various missions so we could identify friend or foe faster, if you were not dressed like us you got shot plain and simple, but this took extra cordination that would not work with larger units, you have to keep your friendlies in specific areas and have established locations you will work yourself to before calling in support so they dont mistake you for the enemy. So multiple patterns do have a limitted use, but a standard uniform needs to be applied across all the services since we usualy wind up crossing paths at one point or another, our guys dont need to be carrying ammo identification manuals the way they do for aircraft and vehicles, but the way things are going right now with every branch having different fatigues — helmets and gear — it’s getting harder to tell who is an American and who isn’t. And for the fella bringing up the 5.56 vs 7.62 argument once again, the 5.56 is a dud, yes we are getting the job done with it but its only beacuse of the training of our guys and the liberal application of rounds down range. as far as the cost, you obviously dont know how much it cost to keep an M4 or M16 operational, constant barrel, gas tube, and various parts replacements, unlike your monthly trip to the range to put a hundred rounds in a paper target with your trusty Ar15, it would freak you out how fast it started falling apart on you firing a hundred rounds a day or how those pretty little paper holes wont do crap when in the torso of a 180 lb man unless you hit him multiple times. I always opted for the 7.62 or an AK and many of our guys were using AK’s they picked up off the ground for thjis same reason. We could easily stamp out our own version of an AK in 7.62mm nato for around $300.00 each, which is cheaper than a barrel replacement on an M16. Our top officials wont do this though because it is not new — fancy — or different which is what it needs to be to get approval for funding. and back to the fatigues — most of us agree the OD’s work best but because its not new they wont go that way either unfortunately.

What company in Murtha’s congressional district makes camouflaged uniforms?

I like Oneilltr’comments about camo being a fashion statement rather than a tactical measure because it is so true. I was also in the development of adaptive chromatic camouflage or chamelion skin but it was too fragile for field use and degraded very rapidly whether applied as fabrics for textiles or vehicle coatings. It works but only in very pristine and static environments. One development that we sought to kill, and eventually succeeded in doing so, was from a manufacturer of aluminized mylar who showed us prototypes of highly reflective mirror uniforms that had low emissivity for the IR region and was very adaptive to the visual surrounds since it reflected everything that the soldier was imbedded in. The poor soldier that had to wear the “suit” during the test program was soon called the “Tin Man” after the Wizard of Oz character. He crinkled when he walked. Of course the manufacturer had his political constituency behind him who was pushing the mirror suit but the ridiculousness of the idea, while technically feasible was tactically insane. Camouflage for personnel should be limited ONLY to Special Forces personnel and should NEVER become a garrison uniform. Period!

ACU’s do not get the job done. The Marine Corps field uniform in multicam would be a great start. Lose the velcro and pin-on badges and sew it back on. Also roll the sleeves when not in the field. Keep the beret for Class A’s and B’s and wear with the combat uniform only for parades and Change of Command.

cammo for special forces only is never going to happen. You are always going to have some high ranking officer who couldnt fit the mold decide he wants waht they have and change things. It happened with going from OD to cammies for everyone, then it happened with berets. They wont earn the right to wear these items when they can just change the regulations to fit thier whims. always has and always will be that way till a real leader steps up to the plate who can see through the bull.

Charles: Yes, change for change’s sake. However, if a change proves ineffective or deficient then it, by all means, should be reconsidered. The Army’s ACUs do not work well against some urban settings and possibly very, very rocky environments.

That being said, other patterns work in those environments as well as others, making them far more versatile. In a sandy, or other desert environment, as well as anything with foliage, the ACU stands out like a beacon rendering the use of “camouflage” irrelevant.

The real issue here are the individuals behind who acclaimed the ACU pattern and began mass production and issue. Not only is the pattern ineffective, but the velcro on the uniform is noisy, (so much for noise discipline), and wears out in a matter of months, (something any four year old could tell you from velro shoes). The velcro factor alone causes a large increase in monetary consumption by the Army to keep its soldiers in properly-functioning uniforms.

For as far as flexibility for multiple environments is concerned, I personally would havce to vote for Multicam. In regard to the “change” argument, well, when it comes to camouflage humans will forever be searching for something that is superior to another style. If I can be concealed better wearing something else, well then I want to be wearing that. Especially when the performance of your clothing’s camouflage ability can mean the difference of life or death, there is no such thing as “good enough.”

*Correction to my previous post*

The ACU pattern does not work well EXCEPT against some urban setttings and possibly very, very rocky environments.

The Marines won this one people! I was Army in Vietnam, walked one year with a 60 & flew one year with another 60. The 2nd 60 was a lot lighter! The Army says that black is not a natural color???? Hey smart people that work in labs, go outside, open eyes, look around in a wooded area, you will see plenty of black, it is called shadows. Go outside at night, open eyes, SURPRISE!!!! There is BLACK everywhere! Now take you head out of your rear, follow what the Marines did but make it a little, like adding ARMY all over like they added Marines all over theirs, and we have a winner!! Oh yeah, almost forgot, put out two pairs of boots, black for night and scuffed for daytime. I’ll bet it works and works a 100% better than the ACUs do.….……Out Here

I hate to say it, but Murtha is right. It’s not just in Afghanistan that the ACU sticks out, it’s everywhere. I’m in a LRS (Long Range Surveillance) unit, and whenever my recon team does a mission, training or otherwise, we never use the ACU because you stick out. We still use old BDUs, or DCUs, and are trying to get some Multicams.

RSLC (Recon & Surv Leaders Course) at Ft Benning even says the ACU doesn’t work, and allows the students to use Multicams for the field phase if they have them.

There are a few places the ACU will work, but they are far, far outweighed by places that it doesn’t. I believe the Army needs a new uniform.

Even the Marines have it right by still having two uniforms because you can’t blend in everywhere with one uniform.

How about just fixing the velcro issue, for starters! It sticks to everything and wears out and just looks like trash. Honestly, how often do you have to change your unit patch, name and rank?!? The Marines got their design right… take notes.

Exactly.…what’s the name of the company in Murtha’s district that makes cammy uniforms? There isn’t one? No problem, Murtha will “earmark” sufficient funds for a factory to be built first, then manufacture the uniforms. Jack Murtha, “retired colonel USMCR”, is as crooked as a dog’s hind leg and if there’s a way for him to direct funding to his district for any DOD project, he’ll do it. The DOD should be very wary of getting ‘ol Jack-O involved in its business; ultimately it will go wrong for the taxpayers and may not go right for the servicemen. Mrtha’s track record is long and sordid.

Jack Murtha says nothing that I want to hear. Not one thing.

“Also, we don’t have a ton of cash lying around, and some in the Army argue that the service has spent billions fielding the new uniforms and other gear in the pattern. Unless it sticks out like a sore thumb, why spend millions more to inject another version? ”

Sure, the Army is looking at an incredible cash shortfall in the immediate future, however the simple and obvious fact is that for the missions actual combat units are engaged in, their ACU equipment is simply not up to the task. The entire ACU program needed to have been scrapped years ago — the nonsense about ‘unpopular’ being the right choice is utterly unfounded. For all the tripe emerging from Natick about how they diligently studied the colors in nature, why is the ACU pattern lacking hues that are actually found IN nature?

A lot of crowing will be made about how logistically challenging such a switch may be, but right now, all the ACU and ABU patterns serve to do is to tip off the Afghans which convoys to hit and which ones to leave alone (MARPAT).

I forsee in the very near future (military-industrially speaking) a very distinct divergence between garrison and field uniforms for all branches. The evolution of body armor technologies with the realities of humping 30+ pounds of PPE gear alone, along with integration of Thermal/NBC/IR threat countering is going to dictate that field uniforms become too specialized for any practical garrison use.
With the introduction of FROG and comparable uniforms, this is already beginning to take place.

A lot of resistance is going to come from the USAF and other rear commands, the perennial ‘I want to look like a frontline warrior from behind a desk’ set that will inevitably have to wear simply different uniforms because they eat, sleep, live, and work thousands of miles from the actual boots on the ground because of the practicalities of garrison life. Correct and novel concepts are always validated by overcoming entrenched resistance.

I worry that the precedent of the big army wanting to look cool will continue to be fed, but in this instance, the basic fact is that they’ve been sent into harms way in an unsat uniform, and that despite the relatively high cost in the near future, a switch from ACU is a necessity. Us Jarheads make fun of that a lot, but it really is sad that our brothers in arms have been failed so utterly by their leadership.

Wally is right, the ACU is shit. They dont blend in with anything except a gravel pile, and since they are made by prisoners they fall apart. The stitching is very thin and weak, the velcro wears out fast, and the crotch rips out often. Oh and p.s. only a chAir Force colonel would want to retain the 5.56 instead of a 30 cal. rifle. I bet he likes the 9mm too lol. Damn POGS.

Since when is Jack Murtha a friend of the armed services… was he not a critic of the prior administration, articulating near treasonous accusations against our fighting men of war crimes to curry press coverage? Another commentator mentions caps vs berets & helmets. De ja vois the fashion statement. Looking further back, perhaps our nemises of WW2 got it right at that time, we’ve seemed to have adapted the stalhelm to kevlar and their fleck pattern was effective world wide in every environment at that time. Nothing but the best for our favorite sons and nephews, they ought to be provided with whatever they want.

Please stop the retired AF LtCol from posting anymore drivel. This is not a forum for paper pushers. If you have no idea why something is the way it is .…shaddup.
Some examples:

“Hopefully we will not waste money changing from 5.56 mm ammunition back to 7.62 mm ammunition – change for change’s sake.“
It’s because the 5.56 doesn’t have the stopping power. If you were ever in combat you’d know.

“OK so the Special Forces got their green berets (certainly one of the least practical hats ever invented)“
Berets are French and look best on a poodle. No self respecting fighting man would be caught dead in one. As for functionality, they have no visor, period.

Whether the ACU is an effective camo is irrelevant to Murtha. I doubt he is really concerned. His problem is it isn’t made in his district or by a company that contributes to his campaigns. With the recent string of corruption accusations surrounding companies linked to Murtha, he has slightly less credibility with me than Bernie Madoff.

I personally hate the ACU, I have be in an environment that it works well in. Well, except that funky floral pattern couch I was sitting on a few months back. That being said, Murtha is a political hack whose main purpose is to enrich his cronies and political donors.

Murtha has no credibility whatsoever. He’s a political hack, whore and glory hound, nothing more. that being said, the ACU COULD use some help!

OK, here goes. First, LOOSE the velcro! Good heavens, whoever thought of that has never been out in the woods.

Second, there is no such thing as a cammo pattern that will work everywhere. It’s just not gonna happen! The pattern should change with the environment. Yeah, I know I’m talking money here, but with all due respect, I’d like to keep my butt in one piece! Gees, even deer and duck hunters have better sense!

As for ammo, give me a .45 pistol and a .30 rifle any time! It actually STOPS the SOB!

Finally, the uniform should fit the job. Since I’m in a Guard environment, I’ve seen exactly what the “Blue Suiter” LTC has referred to. What IS up with wearing a flight suit when you never get in an aircraft?? Or for that matter, wearing cammo when you’re not getting shot at!

Just a thought on that one. Gotta defend a “Blue Suiter” sometimes! :-)

They would’ve had to kick me out of the Army, before i would wear that digital crap our troops have to wear. There was nothing wrong with the woodland pattern. All they did when i went during the first year of iraqi freedom, 04, they just changed the color to desert, which was just fine. The digital pattern was the worst idea they came up with in awhile.

If we stop all the benefits to illegal aliens there would be more than enough money to outfit our servicemen.

Save money? — Do away with the dress uniforms, all combos. The military exists to prevent and fight wars, we do not need to look like a businessman or woman to meet our mission, We try too hard to let the general population forget our primary mission by trying to dress like them.
Patterns? They are called uniforms for a reason, we focus on ranks (the AF and their sleeve rank is an expensive joke) and unit designations. They need to be left on our luggage, not sewn on a combat uniform. No one pattern is going to work in all terrains, but in most combat situations outside stealth maneuvers, life gets too involved to be worried about blending in.
Caliber? I would rather shoot a single round with effect than kill a jungle with rounds downrange. Our weapons and training should focus on effectiveness not density, one of the few heritage items we should be focused on.

You need to check your math.
40,000 x $88 = $3,520,000 not $35.2 mil.
Or is it that you used the “Math Made Easy by Murtha” method, then I can understand the discrepancy.

Jerry I disagree with you. The Dress uniforms worn by the our military are used for formal occasions such as basic training graduations and events that require the service member to “dress up”.
The reason that they have the ranks are so people can identify their leaders in the field. that is the sole reason for having ranks on the uniforms.

Gee there is a lot going on with this subject. Plain and simple fact is the brass is going to pick what they want despite what we say here, always have. The brass is all about developing the latest duplicates from star wars or star trek. Soon I am expecting them to to restart the exo suit concept again, as soon as they watch G.I.Joe. You cant have one uniform/ weapon/ and gear combo that will work in ervery enviroment. If the brass would ask the troops what they want we would still be wearing slant pocket greens,boonie hats or hockey helmets, jungle boots, and old style web gear, carrying M14’s and 45 auto pistols. But the brass want our guys to look like movie storm troopers or movie special forces (spec ops guys dont wear the majority of issued gear in real life, light weight, comfort,and speed is the rule). Some of the new stuff is OK but most is unpractical due to weight and comfort. Luckily we dictated what we wore when deployed as well as what weapons we utilized.the majority of the time it was old school gear because it still works best. especialy in hot enviroments with rough terrain.Brass is going to pick a new uniform, I just hope more of our guys will attempt to dictate what it might be by voicing thier opinions in various military publication blogs. The multi cam is a good start, all U.S. branches need to be the same to avoid confusion in the field though, communications are not dependable enough to call and ask who just crossed your line of fire, and GPS fails too often to not stray from your AO into someone elses, been done too many times recently.

Murtha wants to award another earmark to one of his political contributors. Murtha is nothing but a traitorous piece of crap after his statements about our troops in Iraq.

Murtha was a part time marine, and also was a part time congressman. What else need to be said. Perhaps he and some general are in cahoots in a uniform mfg company. Give it some thought…
The army baret is stupid for everyday wear. It was intended for special groups as was the leather flight jacket.
Give me a mustang anyday as a leader.…

For what its worth, i’m not speaking from a postion of authority here. I never served over seas in combat or had an occation in which camo put me in a life or death situation. My experience is with the U.S. Border Patrol where we wore forest green uniforms without a pattren and have recently gone to a OD utility style uniform. I have to
tell you, the faded OD just works. Its just as effective from the lush green sub tropical we have in deep south texas to the sage deserts of southeren California and even in

the mountains in Arizona. Now I can see where it might stick out a bit in a pure sandy desert, so wear tan or carry a tan shemagh. What I DO know is that the detailed guard
units that work with us in there ACU stick out like sore thumbs in ANY enviroment. The exception to this rule is when using NVG equipment. In this case the ACU does blend in better, but heres the irony, who has the NVGs most of the time in modren warfair? US!!!!! So here is what ACU does, It makes you harder to see by frienly forces and easyer to see by the enemy. Does this make any sence to anyone?

I do have some expence with pattren camo in another place. Ok before I say this, please understand this is a hobby. I am an avid airsofter/milsimer. (ok, finish laugin and read on). One thing that this type of gaming is good for is testing uniforms. Think about it guys, we dont have any restrictions on what we wear, we have money to buy whatever tacticool crap we want and get to see ALL types of uniforms right next to each other all the time. I was at a game just this last weekend where we had teams wearing ACU, MARPAT, DMARPART, Multicam, DCU, BDU, Black and OD. Thats not to mention the guys that wear guillies, cadpat, flectarn, that british pattren that i cant rember the name
of and even XCAM which is a digital multicam (Dumb Idea anyone?)

The envirment we play in is both green wooded and tan sage so you get a bit of all colors. I’ve been doing this for 4 years now and Ive noticed a few things.

1. Multicam isn’t
2. ACU is like wearing hunter orange
3. Marpat is not bad but not great (too much brown)
4. DMarpat is just DCU
5. Air Force digital is ACU
6. BDU and DCU are as effective as Marpat and Dmarpat (exception, BDU in green woods is a bit harder to spot)
7. Faded OD green with a bit of natural foliage is as hard to spot as pattren camo.

So what works? Well they all do except ACU. Here is what I recommend. Insted of doing all of this R&D in the latesist and greatist camoflage color, start focusing on physicaly breaking up that silhouette. Change your headgear or attach items that make your head look like a blob insted of, well, a head. When I was tracking aliens (the undocumented kind, not the little green ones) thats what we would look for, the silhouette of the head and sholders. I use a shemagh to great effect. Its light weight, effective and I can carry more than one in diffrent colors and instantly swtich from tan to green and hide anywhere. I drap it over my head, around my neck, over my head and sholders, over my rifle or what ever part happens to be exposed physicaly disrupting my silhouette insted of relying on a pattren that is fixed on parts of my body. Heres the best part, THERE CHEAP. They can be made of any materal, and can easly be modified to use natual foliage. I have one that i sew a net on to and I stick all sorts of sage and grass into it, keep it in my cargo pocket and yank it out and reload it with what is immediatly around me when ever im going be “laying in” and in 60 seconds i got a sniper hide. Now im not saying this is a final soulution but camoflage manufatures and people who decide what uniforms people are wearing need to start thinking outside the box or in this case outside the uniform. Put eveyone in Multican, train them with cheap alternative camoflague devices and call it a day. Thats my two cents.

It’s easy to be apathetic, my friend, when you aren’t the one being shot at. I feel like a sore thumb in ACU’s, unaffectionately dubbed “I See You’s” during my first Iraq deployment. They’re like a multitool — able to do many things but not particularly good at anything. A soldier you can see is a soldier you can kill. I pay taxes like anyone else and sure wouldn’t mind a little of that money being allocated to uniform change. It may just help me live a bit longer.

–SP–

Why does the Dept. of the Army have to pay for unforms for it’s troops? They should do like the Marine Corps and have the troops PAY for their uniforms. It’s not a novel idea. Besides, I guarantee the troops will definately take better care of them if they have to dole out the money for unsatisfactory and damaged uniforms.

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