Regs Hinder Osprey Defenses

Regs Hinder Osprey Defenses

Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Conway has promised that the controversial MV-22 Osprey will be flying in Afghanistan by the end of the year. He recently told a Washington audience that the Osprey, “has gone from a wounded duck to a poster child in terms of what aircraft with that leap-ahead technology can do.”

Not so, according to some lawmakers on the Hill who are calling for an outright end to V-22 production, claiming the tilt-rotor suffers from low readiness rates and lacks the maneuverability to evade hostile ground fire. One of the plane’s more vocal critics, Rep. Edolphus Towns (D-NY), chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said at a hearing last month that the plane is a failure and “its time to put the Osprey out of its misery.”

Osprey critics brandished a June GAO report that cited maintenance and reliability problems and questioned the plane’s ability to fly in “high-threat” environments. Setting aside for the moment the fact that barring extensive air-defense suppression by electronic warfare and strike aircraft, the military doesn’t typically send aircraft into high threat environments, I’m not sure Afghanistan is a high threat environment. I have heard commanders there say that the Taliban has beefed up its air defenses and that it may now have some newer generation shoulder-fired missiles, or MANPADS. High-threat or not, at a minimum, then, the Osprey should have the ability to survive against occasional MANPADS.

Marine sources confirmed to me that a Marine Osprey flying in Iraq successfully evaded a MANPAD, so I have to question GAO’s statement about Osprey vulnerability. One of the reasons GAO gave, was that the Osprey lacks an onboard defensive gun to hose down hot landing zones. Now, the Marines are fitting machine guns to the plane to give it some defensive capability, so that should help out in that area.

GAO also said: “The V-22 had maneuvering limits that restrict its ability to perform defensive maneuvers.” The wording in that sentence sounded odd. Is GAO saying the plane cannot perform defensive maneuvers or is there some regulation against it performing certain maneuvers? Not the same thing.

I asked a Marine officer who is very knowledgeable on the subject of V-22 survivability about the GAO’s findings. The officer requested anonymity so as to speak frankly about a politically charged issue and I thought it important to at least present another voice in the Osprey debate.

The officer said the maneuvering limits in the official Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardization were set by engineers who did not carry out the full battery of tests on the plane because of money shortages during the operational test phase. The Osprey’s troubled developmental history meant the focus was on keeping the plane in the air, not on testing it in battlefield situations.

As currently written, those NATOPS forbid pilots from pulling back on the control stick and pitching the plane’s nose up more than 20 degrees in the vertical axis. It’s a simple defensive maneuver and one the plane is more than capable of performing. Stalling is not a factor, the officer said, as the plane is moving much too fast to stall.

The importance of MV-22 pilots being allowed to perform the maneuver, which NATOPS limits say they cannot even practice, is that it is an effective way to evade an anti-aircraft missile. “Every tactical pilot knows that success in defensive maneuver requires two elements: expendables plus maneuver… you’re throwing out a decoy and then you get away from your decoy, you displace yourself in as many axes as you can to provide the biggest solution problem for the missile,” the officer said.

Once a MANPAD missile is decoyed by a flare, and the aircraft successfully evades, contrary to the movies, the missile will not reacquire the aircraft. The missile will fly straight through the decoy flare, continuing along its same flight path until the rocket motor burns out, which happens within a matter of seconds. “You can’t just hang out on the same flight path when the missile was shot at you,” the officer said, “when the missile flies through the last flare, and at the end of that last flare there’s an airplane, it’s going to hit you.”

The seeker on most MANPADS has a very limited field of view, no more than about 5 degrees off the missile’s centerline. When the Osprey pilot hears a missile alert tone, the pilot only has to displace the aircraft 300 feet to be out of the seeker head field of view when it passes the last decoy flare, the officer said. Pulling back on the stick and pitching the nose up 40 degrees for about three seconds will do that. The pilot must then get the nose down and pick up speed so as to do the maneuver again and again until the plane is out of the threat zone. That maneuver was shown to be very effective at evading the most advanced missiles in thousands of test simulations.

The V-22 flies like a fixed wing airplane, it just takes off and lands like a helicopter. Most Marine Osprey pilots are former helicopter pilots. They fly the plane like a helicopter, the officer said, which too often means flying straight and level through a threat area and relying on onboard defensive systems, electronic missile warning and decoy flares, to protect the aircraft from missiles. The danger, the officer said, is that because of the NATOPS limits, Marine pilots are not practicing simple defensive maneuvers that are well within the plane’s abilities.

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Strictly “Animal House” — the Deathmobile.

Good Morning Greg,

I hate to tell you this Greg, but you have the threat wrong. What is bringing down U.S. aircraft in most cases are not MANPADS, but plain old garden variety RPG’s that hit them when the aircraft is on the ground discharging or taking on troops, wounded, or cargo, or RPG rounds with proximity fused RPG rounds that can get an MV-22 on approach or lift off. U.S. made Stingers that might be in the area are dead, to old to any longer be a threat.

The SA 16’s from China which sell on the international market for about $40.000, or the more effective SA-18 from Russia which the Russian sell only to Syria at $80,000 each, and the Syrians sell at a mark up to others are way to expensive for terrorists organizations. Modern RPG rounds from European manufactures cost in hundreds of dollar or euros.

The terrorists are as usual ahead of Congressman Murtha and General Conway.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

With all new systems, they are fielded with restricted parameters for use — which follow on testing and operational experience expand. This group seems to have a lot to say about Osprey, what is the follow on IOT&E plan? Is the flight envelope being opened up?
A lot of defensive capability is NOT getting into a hot LZ too often — of course that depends on knowing if someone else has plans to make the LZ hot! Hopefully we would not have too many Blackhawk Down scenarios where mistakes put people in a blender and then we throw resources in to try to extract our people.
On MANPADs, supposedly your Grail (SA-7) missile is more of a threat to a hovering/slow helicopter than a fast moving target. If they were used against an Osprey when it was arriving/departing the Osprey would have a hard time executing a hard pull up!

? helicopters will always be more of a man pad target.…. I dont see much of a difference with an ch-53 and an osprey approacing a HOT LZ other than once off the ground the osprey can get out of there much faster.. the ch-53 cant execute a hard pull up well, and i dont see the osprey doing it either.…

I imagine Pax River would be able to expand the NATOPS restictions.

I can also imagine aircrews performing the manuever described on post maintenance check flights.

When military officers don’t wish to be quoted saying something positive, it is because they want to lie. How much money does it cost to try a simple maneuver? Zero. The V-22s have 50,000 flight hours but couldn’t spare a few minutes to try a simple maneuver? It’s amazing that Marine spinmaster assumed Campbell was so ignorant that he would accept that BS.

Ask him to explain this “missile warning device” that doesn’t exist. In helos and the V-22, its the crewman looking out, which they complain they can’t do in the V-22 since it has a tiny flat window.
The V-22s in Iraq did not have flares, so how did they avoid the MANPAD? There were two reports of maybe a rifle shot or maybe an RPG in Iraq. The MANPAD is a lie, which is why it was never reported.
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The Marine Corps’ own study from 2003 focused on the V-22s instability and safety issues, http://​www​.g2mil​.com/​V​-​2​2​s​a​f​e​t​y​.​htm

In a subsequent technical interchange meeting in late 2002, the Bell/Boeing-NAVAIR team agreed, in principle, that the maneuvers should be done and embarked on an flight test program to include these maneuvers. To date these maneuvers have not been accomplished because the V-22 rotor control system repeatedly exceeded rotor disk flapping limits while approaching the requested conditions. The inability to maneuver V-22 in this fashion without exceeding rotor flapping limits is a serious safety concern in itself and argues against the ability of V-22 to safely perform evasive maneuvering in a combat environment.

and later in that article:

Because of this lack of blade flexibility, sharp maneuvers have caused new lightweight composite parts in V-22s to break during testing, so further tests were recently canceled. The Fort Worth Star-Telegram published an investigative report on September 26, 2004 by Bob Cox on recent V-22 testing which noted:

Some testing was done. But a series involving specific, sharp defensive maneuvers was skipped after Bell engineers warned that it would severely damage the rotors, according to a source within the testing program who asked not to be identified for fear of losing his job.

Several people told the Star-Telegram that the canceled tests are important.

Program officials feared the maneuvers would damage the aircraft.

Tom Christie, the chief weapons tester for the Pentagon, acknowledged to the Star-Telegram that the “most severe maneuvers” were not conducted during recent testing. When asked whether the skipped tests signal shortcomings that could affect the V-22’s performance in combat, he did not answer directly.

“The tactical implications of this limitation have been carefully considered and will continue to be reviewed,” he said.

—————————————————————————————-

Perhaps Campbell might read Military.com’s own V-22 forum where retired V-22 test pilot, Col. Bill Lawrence recently wrote.

Posted Wed 24 June 2009 08:23 AM Wed 24 June 2009 08:23 AM Hide Post

The question I keep asking is this: What is going to replace the CH-46? The V-22 was intended to be the answer for that question, but through the achingly long development process, so many KPPs were unmet and subsequently changed that it no longer is required to be capable of doing the things the CH-46 could do, and did, in combat.

LtGen Trautman denies that we did these hairy maneuvers in combat. Au contraire!! He was not there and does not know. The ’46 was described as a medium transport and compared to the V-22. But the maneuvering that could be done by the ’46 is not in the performance envelope of the V-22. And, to give tactics its due, maybe those manuevers will never again be required. But 80% of combat losses in helicopters in Viet Nam occurred during final to a zone. That’s where we did windup spirals, sideflares, and all the intensive maneuvering required to survive.

When you test an aircraft, you heavily instrument it. It is covered with strain gauges that measure tension, structural loads, etc. With the V-22, in early testing, it was found that those loads were so high that the structural life of the aircraft would be cripplingly reduced if those maneuvers were practiced, so no testing has ever been done in those areas and the V-22 NATOPS manual prohibits such maneuvering.

As I said before, if there is never again a requirement for strenuous combat maneuvering, the V-22 will probably fit the bill. There are still problems, however.

If, today, the V-22 was required to evacuate the American Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, it could go in and land inside the compound. But in those high/hot conditions, in order to lift a standard load of passengers out, the fuel would have to be so restricted that the V-22 would have to land within 60 miles of Kabul to refuel. I consider that a safety issue.

As Rex Rivulo pointed out, there will be incidents of massive power failures … always have been, always will be. And, because there is no way to get this aircraft on the ground through autorotation, folks will die. But that is no different than any fixed wing. Massive power failure in fixed wing aircraft has pretty much always meant death for the folks in the back. So, a safety issue, but not one in my mind that should be a real focus. The failure to have an autorotational capability was known from the start.

R&M aside, my problems are focused on what a pilot does. I was always a human factors and ergonomics guy. And pilots are pilots. Remember the B-52 that went in at the Fairchild airshow in 1994 … was in a 90 degree angle of bank when it hit the ground because of aggressive overmaneuvering by the pilot. Why did he do that? I don’t know. He knew better. The world’s most experienced F-16 pilot tried to do a split S from 2,500 feet west of Fort Worth with predictable results. Why did he do that? I don’t know. He knew better. Pilots are going to fly aircraft beyond the published limits in violation of common sense and rules. In many aircraft, they get away with it. In the V-22, test results say they are less likely to survive those maneuvers.
____________________________________________________

No one ever wants to land in a highly defended LZ. The problem occurs when it seems the LZ is completely undefended and as the helos set down bad guys hidden nearby open fire. If a helos engine is hit, it can autorotate to a somewhat safe crash landing. If a V-22 is hit, one rotor may stop and the other instantly flips the V-22 over for a nose first fatal crash. Even in undefended LZs, an LZ may look good at 1000 feet or lower in bad weather, but as the pilots approach they see a fence, boulder, telephone pole, hole, cow, cactus, or whatever seconds before they touch down, so they need to make a sharp last second change to land several meters to the right or left, or suddenly abort. Sometimes other helos flying nearby shift suddenly, requiring others to instantly adjust. However, the V-22 can’t handle sharp changes, and the software is actually programmed to not allow pilots full control to do such things. They may attempt the maneuver, but the controls will not fully respond.

——————————————————————————————

In short, that secret Marine officer wants some fool to believe that Marine pilots know how to evade MANPADs, but can’t because of Boeing engineers, so Marines will die. I wonder if the officer also sold Campbell some distressed real estate properties too. Perhaps Campbell should become a reporter instead of stenographer and chase down real stories, like the dozens of missing V-22s. http://​www​.g2mil​.com/​V​-​2​2​m​i​s​s​i​n​g​.​htm

Don’t ask that “knowledgeable” Marine officer for help, because his knowledge is confined to the reality that if the V-22 is canceled, so is his career.

I am sorry Mr. Campbell, I just saw that Greg Grant wrote this article. That explains much.

“The V-22 flies like a fixed wing airplane, it just takes off and lands like a helicopter. ”

…no. No, it doesn’t. It flies like a fixed-wing airplane, and takes off and lands like a STOL fixed-wing airplane (with “S” being “zero” in certain conditions.)

The V-22 is a turboprop transport equivalent of the AV-8 Harrier. And nobody expects a VTOL-mode Harrier to do anything but go up and down.

As the guy who was initially tasked with testing the V-22 at Pax River, I have to correct one glaring error. The restricted maneuvering envelope is a result of limited testing, true. But that restriction had nothing to do with a lack of money. It had everything to do with structural service life. When the instrumented aircraft was maneuvered, the measurements indicated that service life would be so adversely affected that testing was stopped. Then, through the course of development, there were several incidents where unplanned maneuvers caused unexpected results. The combination has produced the maneuvering envelope the Marine Corps is stuck with. The V-22 does a fine job of what it is authorized to do, but it is not allowed to execute extensive defensive maneuvers because of program experience.

Very informative @ chesty.
thx

WHERE O WHERE IS THE OSPREY. MARINES ARE GOING SHORT OF WATER AND HAVE CASE– EVAC DELAYS IN THE OLD OEF ‚DO TO USING THE LEGACY PACKAGE OF MEU HELO PACKAGE. THE MOST EXPENSIVE MILITARY PROJECT IN HISTORY ‚CANNOT SUPPORT A FEW HARD PRESSED BATTILIONS IN OUR MAIN EFFORT.
THIS PLATRORM HAS STILL NOT DID A HELO ASSUALT IN ANY AREA THAT HAS ANY AREA BUT THE MOST PRISTINE CONDITIONS . THE SHOW FROM FROM IRAQ WAS PICKED FOR OSPREY CAPACITIES RATHER THAN ENEMY FACILITIES.

Thank God we did not have the internet in 1960, or we would not have the Chinook, a.k.a “The Boeing Body Bag”. Thank God we did not have the internet in the 1970’s & 80’s or we would not have Blackhawk a.k.a. “Crashhawk” or the Apache a.k.a. “Hanger Queen”.

Each of those aircraft took the same kinda criticism in their day; expensive, overkill, not survivable. They however did not have pervasive punditry via the internet. It makes me wonder if we American’s can still build a new aircraft in this all seeing eye world.

Chesty — of course the MV-22 has both missile warning systems and countermeasures dispensers. Why on earth would you think otherwise? This is public knowledge, except, perhaps, to you.

The Osprey was a dud to begin with and always will be a dud. Even the name is a dud: OSPREY !!!

i worked on the V-22 it take more man HR to do maintains then working on a Helo. and that was at Paxs river

And the BS keeps coming…

“…and lacks the maneuverability to evade hostile ground fire.”

Compared to what? A helicopter? A C-130? A fighter? It is none of these…so how can one say it lacks sufficient maneuverability? Ignorance and drinking too much kool-aid…that’s how.

I have been flying on this aircraft for 5+ years. Before that, I spent 8 years on the MH-53 Pavelow. The CV-22, like the MH-53 is designed (IR and RF countermeasures) to go into anything up a medium threat environment. Very few aircraft go into a high threat environment. Those that do, do it with a gorilla package of support (SEAD, CAP, ect). Further, to my knowledge NO tactical transport aircraft today or ever, go into, intended or otherwise, a high threat environment without lots of support and even then, the threat is usually degraded beforehand.

You take my word for what it is worth…

The V-22 or at least the CV-22 is perfectly capable of operating in a medium threat environment. The combination of defensive countermeasures, speed, altitude, noise signature, IR signature and yes, maneuverability makes the aircraft very capable in a combat zone.

Most of these hacks are just repeating what some anti-V-22 lobbiest said to them or some biased report contains. The bottom line here is that this just another effort to cancel the V-22. NEWS FLASH…it won’t happen.

The USMC has retired over half of its H-46’s and is fully invested in the transition to the V-22. USSOCOM is fully behind this aircraft and what it will…is bringing the SOF war fighter. Additionally, there is WAY too much support from members of congress, on both sides of the aisle, to keep this program going.

I will agree, however, reliability leaves a lot to be desired. However, I have seen marked improvement over the last 12 months. The issue we are dealing with has to do with parts…not the capability or safety of the aircraft. The biggest issue has been parts that aren’t supposed to break, breaking. Parts that are supposed to have a 500 hour life breaking at 250 hours and all of this with a VERY immature supply system. The positive side of things here is that he engineers have been very responsive and effective at improving their parts. The aircraft is very capable…at least from my USAF/SOF perspective. I will concede however, that if reliability continues to be a problem in the long term, eventually capability will be impacted.

We have put almost 60,000 hours on the V-22 since we returned to flight in 2003. To date the V-22 has been on only 4 combat deployments over the last 20 months. Simply put, we are only in the 1st quarter…there is long way to go.

Jim, please reply to this part of the article:

“…NATOPS forbid pilots from pulling back on the control stick and pitching the plane’s nose up more than 20 degrees in the vertical axis. It’s a simple defensive maneuver and one the plane is more than capable of performing. Stalling is not a factor, the officer said, as the plane is moving much too fast to stall.

The importance of MV-22 pilots being allowed to perform the maneuver, which NATOPS limits say they cannot even practice, is that it is an effective way to evade an anti-aircraft missile. ”

This is a current restriction in the NATOPS/-1. Its been in there since the early day of the program.

HOWEVER, it was derived during developmental testing in the early 90’s. The restriction is primarily the result of civilian testing and very conservative engineers. In the test world, safety restrictions usually use a factor of 3 to ensure maximum protection. In the simulator (very accurately modeled) I have taken the aircraft to 60+ degrees of pitch. However, the anonymous source is on track with his assessment of why the restriction exists today…

We are talking about an aircraft made out of composite. As Bill stated, there are legitimate structural (G-loading) concerns that need to be kept in mind when the envelope is expanded.

On the other hand, this is just some former aviators attempt to extract a restriction in the NATOPS and mold it into an assertion that it has a negative effect on survivability. It couldn’t be further from the truth. In reality (a place V-22 critics seldom venture) the maneuverability and thus survivability are sufficient. Would it be nice to expand the envelope, yes. But remember, you are talking about a troop transport (MV-22)/special operations (CV-22) aircraft.

Bill and Jim in particular, than you for your input. After reading the various comments I realize that perhaps I was not clear in portraying the source’s position on the MV-22. The source is NOT an Osprey critic. The source believes that the manueverability restrictions are being wrongly used by Osprey critics to argue that the aircraft is not survivable.

Further, thousands of simulated tests have shown that expanding the V-22 manuevering envelope dramatically increases the plane’s chances of survival when engaged by a shoulder-fired missile. The source believes, very strongly, that Marines flying the MV-22 may be endangered by the current restrictions and that they should be lifted.

Good Morning Greg,

The airborne maneuver ability or its IR defensive systems of the MV-22 are not the burning questions of it vulnerability to hostile fire.

Unlike a helicopter which can hover, move slowly and have door gunner sweeping the flanks of the LZ as it dumps its load and exits the LZ, the MV-22 must land, lower its ramp and discharge it cargo and or troops.

The only place for a defensive weapon is on the underside of the MV-22, when the aircraft is on the ground, it is in effect sitting on a useless defensive weapon. I believe the proper military term for a situation like this is called a “sitting duck”.

The RPG has become the terrorists weapon of choice for bringing down air craft, it is cheap and at a range of up to a 100 meters a stationary MV-22 is an easy target. With readily available proximity rounds for the RPG even in the approach or take off phases of entering a LZ the MV-22 is vulnerable to ground fire from as far away as 100 meters.

The terrorists are not sitting on there laurels either. In both Afghanistan and Somalia in recent months flat bed trucks have been seen with old Soviet era, some as old as WW II vintage, dual 12.5mm, 14.5mm, 23mm and even old WW II vintage 37mm canon mounted on the flat bed with the weapons mounted so that they have a negative depression of about –15 deg. to elevations of about 60 deg. or the perfect weapon for raking an LZ.

Although in most cases the MV-22’s will have armed escorts, F-18’s and AH1’s these old obsolete weapons could create a very expensive killing field and scrap yard in a few seconds.

The concept of vertical insertion heeds some serious rethinking. Perhaps dropping a daisy cutter and few seconds before any aircraft approach an LZ might be the only workable solution to secure the LZ.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Appreciate the comments @ Jim. You’ve reinforced my belief that V-22 potential is not yet fully realized but that in time, the concept will be validated.

What I’m curious about is the ‘missing’ 40 aircraft. It looks like there’s some deception going on.

Ever see a video of a six V-22s landing in an LZ? Perhaps a V-22 fan will post one on youtube and link it here. I doubt one exists, even for training ops. First, they must remain 250ft apart to avoid VRS. Second, they must land straight and slow. Third, only around 15 combat troops fit. V-22s are bigger than CH-53s, huge undefended targets that must land slow and straight, lest the flip over due to a lack of lateral G stability.

Again I speak of the hidden agenda of this Administration, the Presidents goal and mandate to HIS Sec of Defense (Mr. Gates). That is to quietly but effectively dismantle and/or disarm America’s fighting capability to only limited defensive capability. IF they have their way (which is well underway swiftly and quietly) we (America) will soon not have the ability to wage a war outside our Country. They want to stop production of the F-22. They want to kill the V-22. They have killed the ABL. Next they will limit production of the F-35. Their refusal to listen to their General Officers on weapon systems, and what and/or how many are needed. Case in point…As found in today’s AFA’s Daily Report (July 20, 2009).
Limiting F-22 Force to 187 Is “Real Mistake”: Retired Gen. Merrill McPeak, USAF Chief Chief of Staff during Desert Storm and an unabashed and early supporter of Barack Obama’s presidential candidacy, says the President is wrong to try to stop production of the F-22. “I think it’s a real mistake,” McPeak told FOXNews​.com on Friday. “The airplane is a game-changer and people seem to forget that we haven’t had any of our soldiers or Marines killed by enemy air since 1951 or something like that. It’s been half a century or more since any enemy aircraft has killed one of [our] guys. So we’ve gotten use to this idea that we never have to breathe hostile air.” McPeak argues that Obama is “doing a tremendous job” but has received bad advice on the F-22. McPeak told Fox News​.com: “We do not want to field an Armed Forces that can be defeated by someone simply topping our capability. The F-22 is at the top end. We have to procure enough of them for our ability to put a lid on, to dictate the ceiling of any conflict.” That number, he says, is “some figure well above 200.” Of the F-35, which the Pentagon is pegging as the dominant fighter of the somewhat distant future, McPeak says, “I think the F-35 is going to be a good airplane, when we get it; it’s just not going to be surprisingly good,” largely because it’s been “compromised” by the need to field a common aircraft for three services. Of Obama’s chief military advisor, Defense Secretary Robert Gates, McPeak says, “My bitch is with Secretary Gates who I do not think has shown a lot of judgment here on these calls regarding the Air Force budget.” (FoxNews​.com report)

F22: Uh, what killed ABL? Those guys are right next door to my office, and they’re busy as bees.

I find it amusing yet sad how many people think they are experts on the Osprey, based on nothing more than what they’ve read about it on the web. (Chesty, Norman…) Much like the biased news media, anti-Osprey pundits such as G2mil serve only to spread ill-willed misinformation based on outdated program data.

Fortunately, those of us who really know about this aircraft and the program in general treat such criticism as a minor annoyance to be ignored. Remember, anything you’ll ever read about this bird on a web page has already been said before.

If you feel like you can contribute to the discussion in an authoritative manner, than please do. Otherwise, do not waste our time by parroting ‘facts’ you just read elsewhere on the web. This does not equate to having real experience or knowledge, and it shows.

Obama plans to spend more than Bush, which is also more than the rest of the world combined. How is that “Dismantling”

The ABL is a fraud that should have been canceled years ago.

The F-35 is two decades newer than the F-22 designed in the 1980s.

I suppose some who profit off the F-22 worry they will be laid off and must find work in the real private sector.

The millions of unemployed Americans wonder how better it would be if the USA didn’t spend trillons to wage war aboard.

Herbert you sound like a typical liberal

First the F-35 is not two decades newer than the F-22, and the F-22 is superior in several key areas. Haven’t you or any of the F-22 bashers for that matter read of the hi-lo mix?

Second the ABL is not a fraud and if anything is an important proof-of-concept/experimental aircraft for the future

Third, why the hell don’t the jobs of those working on the F-22 matter, but the jobs of others do? What do you mean they should have to find work in the “real” private sector. Gee I am sure they will be glad once they lose their jobs for the sake of some ineffective liberal social program.

Byron,

The V-22 doesn’t HAVE to land to unload its troops. It can do so via FASTROPE, RAPPEL, HALO, STATIC LINE or HOIST.

The only place for a weapon the V-22 is NOT ONLY the underside. A .50cal or 7.62 can be place on the ramp.

You are right about the RPG. However, the V-22 is no less stationary than any other helicopter in an LZ.

Norman,

I haven’t seen a video with 6 V-22 landing in an LZ. However, I have been in a 4 ship landing in a brownout LZ and there are pictures of that.

With regard to VRS and the 250′ limit. First off the 250′ limit doesn’t exist because of VRS. It exist s because a wake turbulence effect in tilt-rotor that is known as “ROLL OFF”. The 250′ limit is during flight. As each leading aircraft lands the following aircraft can land at close as they need to. BTW, the minimum LZ requirement for a 53 is 170 X 170…which happens to be the minimum for the V-22…weird. And guess what…we don’t have to worry about a tail rotor.
.

I thought the V-22 was going to be cancelled years ago, this is tricky technology. The combat situation empahsizes what the congress and GAO doesn’t, that the V-22 actually is performing the missions. The main issues left for the V-22 now are reliability of parts in a combat situation. Too much money has been spent to get the turkey off the ground, but now that it is there, keep it!

OKAY its great, why is it not in Afghanistan doing caseevac for the MEU right now today????

The Marines are taking casaulties and waiting for a ride in a 1971 SEAKNIGHT.

All the rest of this blog is about as worthless as a killed in action apology because you bleed out waiting for a beatdown 2nd generation helo package .…
And the men will be waiting.…

OIFOEFshepard,

The USMC was not going to be able to deploy TWO VMM until the end of this year. By the end of the year there will be enough VMM so that one will be in AFG and the other will be afloat.

Roger that Jim , what is the reason for lack of coverage

Shep,

You can only build airplanes so fast and with that u can’t snap you fingers and have 10 operational VMM’s overnight.

Congress has bought the Corps 156 MV-22s. How many are in Iraq? None. How many are in Afghanistan? None. Okinawa? None. Aboard ship? 10. Sounds like a problem to me.

Some think that every idea dreamed up in the Pentagon will work, given enough time and money. At one time, bad ideas were dropped, which happened to the V-22 in the early 1980s. However, corruption prevailed, and this is what the Corps is stuck with. As that CV-22 salesman/Boeing pilot admitted above, they have problems with parts breaking that are no supposed to break.

Suppose you bought 156 new taxis to replace your 40-year old ones that were ready for use 85% of the time. However, your new taxis cost twice as much to operate, burn six times more fuel, and are broke down half the time. Meanwhile, your taxi salesmen keeps sending you bills to upgrade your new taxis to fix problems, and assures you this is worth it because the new taxis are faster.

Cancel the V-22 today, and buy more UH-1Ys and CH-53Ks to provide double the lift at half the cost with twice the reliability.

Osprey isn’t in Iraq because Marines are drawing down from Iraq.

At least 2 squadrons had deployed there and rotated, one of them at least twice.

The most recent deployment ended late this spring.

I really doubt V-22 will be cancelled.

Speaking of UH1Y’s, weren’t they recently grounded?

Hmmm. So why is it important to yank the nose back to avoid MANPADS?
The SACT philosophy in CSAR/SOF insert-extract is “Manuever, Expend, Egress”. For those of us who enjoy that rarefied air just above the treetops, the manuever part that follows an IR missle warning includes descending, turning nose-to-threat, ACCELERATING, and masking. I don’t know who this guy is that got everybody worked up about not being able to pitch the Osprey on its tail right now, but if Betty’s bitchin’ about a bottle rocket shot at my bottom while I’m on short final, the LAST place I’m putting my cyclic is in my lap. If you’ve never seen a Buttonhook turn on goggles, just imagine that patch of ground 20 yards behind your butt come twisting back around across your nose. I couldn’t begin to tell you how an Osprey performs this maneuver, but done properly in a helo, it looks dramatic but in reality is smooth and puts little stress on the airframe.
While the Osprey’s footprint would preclude it from touching down in many confined areas (such as can be expected in forested or mountainous terrain), section tactics can adjust. In my community, we rarely put both birds on the ground simultaneously. One is usually topcover. High threat environments get mitigated to medium through the strike package; otherwise we hang out ’til the mission coordinator clears us in.
I really am disgusted with all the hand-wringing over whether or not it’s dangerous to fly an Osprey into enemy territory. This “zero-defect” mentality has strangled the mission-accomplishment right out of the once-mighty US military.
Sometimes, you just have to Git ‘Er Done.

The V-22 is the same/similar as the 53’s and 47’s…170 X 170

Yes, but all the above footprints are quite a bit bigger than a Blackhawk or Seahawk, by more than double. The new Hueys for the USMC will imho outperform even the Blackhawks, and cost considerably less. So we will maintain great capability that flies under the radar of public scrutiny.

um, that’s new Hueys are cheaper than Ospreys…

JIM,
Come on, the fight the Marines are having right now in OEF need helo support.
We have made over 140 Ospreys ‚we should be able to field a couple at least to put off the critics.

Nuchbutter: Well, seems that ‘Er was gettin’ Got Dun just fine with the old kit, which leaves one wondering exactly what the V-22 has brought to the party.

Nutchbutter has it right.

Against IR MANPADS, “expendables” (aka “flares”) and maneuver like he**! Give that little guidance package something to chew on while you get out of the way. I just might (unintentionally) violate NATOPS or overstress the bird, but consider the alternative. It’s going to run out of poop pretty quick — it’s not a rocket ship that can chase you all over the sky.

Against RPG or guns in an LZ, different threat and differerent tactics.

Jim good to see you so involved in the discussion. People stop bickering back and forth, its rediculous. When are you all going to realize this is about “MONEY” and not the war or the Americans dying over sea’s. I have been working on this aircraft for 11 years and its made me a weatlhy man. Look at this from the bigger picture. This aircaft has made a lot of people wealthy and if you try to take that away we have people on the inside to stop you.
Bell/Boeing/Ratheon/Moog/Rolls Royce trust me all the heavy hitters are on board. Is there anything anyone can to about “NO!” so deal with it people its not going away, too much money involved already. People educate yourself on the government polics involved. I one of these crash tomorrow with 15 Devil Dogs and civlian reporters onboard it doesn’t matter it will continue to fly. We have killed over 27 marines already and it still flies and it will kill more miliary workers in the future, thats the nature of the beast and there is no ethics in making money so get over it or get onboard and make some money, I did and thats the bottom line.

They’ll have to do a lot of hoop jumping this year to keep probs under wraps. More stuff keeps bubbling up, like this.

http://​www​.g2mil​.com/​V​-​2​2​f​i​n​d​i​n​g​.​htm

The only things the V-22 does better then any other airframe is suck and cost a lot doing it. It’s prop rotors are T-rex forearms. It’s lift capability is equal to an H-60. It flies as fast as an H-53. It can’t fly at altitude and it chugs along in thick sea-level air. It takes 5 minutes to land with little defensive armament. It has corrupted generals and made liars out of maintenance crews.

So we have a Blackhawk that flies a few knots faster, has a single tailgunner, blinds crew chiefs and restricts pilots from maneuvering. It costs 5 times as much as “legacy” airframes and is killing the honest culture of USMC aviation maintenance.

Thx Boeing. Hope your bonuses are worth it.

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