Obama Admin Crushes F-22 Supporters

Obama Admin Crushes F-22 Supporters

UPDATED: With Vote Analysis

In a vote sure to be read as a sign of the Obama administration’s power on defense matters, the Senate voted by a lopsided 40–58 in favor of an amendment stripping $1.75 billion for the F-22 from the defense authorization bill.

You could almost hear the whoops in Defense Secretary Robert Gates’ offices as he and his team scored a decisive victory. Gates’ reputation as a man willing to take tough decisions and to stick with them gained greatly and won enhanced credibility with the vote. He will be difficult to defeat on any major program decision he takes for the foreseeable future.

Sen. Carl Levin, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he knew stopping production of the fighter would be painful but he and his fellow lawmakers had to grasp such nettles “based on what is best for the nation and what is best for the men and women of the armed forces.” Another factor that clearly played a role in swinging reluctant lawmakers behind Levin and Sen. John McCain were the clear signals sent from the Pentagon that F-22 production should be stopped. “The recommendation is strong and clear, as strong and clear as I have ever heard,” Levin said on the Senate floor.

In a sign of just how much importance the White House attached to the vote, President Obama told reporters right after the Senate acted that the country just could not afford any more Raptors.

“At a time when we’re fighting two wars and facing a serious deficit, this would have been an inexcusable waste of money. Every dollar of waste in our defense budget is a dollar we can’t spend to support our troops, or prepare for future threats, or protect the American people. Our budget is a zero-sum game, and if more money goes to F-22s, it is our troops and citizens who lose,” Obama said.

The Associated Press reported that Vice President Joe Biden and White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel lobbied senators, as did Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Republican Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, who led the fight for the Raptor, said he had “never seen the White House lobby the way they’ve lobbied on this issue.”

A scan of the vote provides some interesting insights into just how bipartisan this issue was. A preponderance of Democrats did vote to kill production. The toll was 42 Democrats, 15 Republicans and one Independent in favor of Levin-McCain. True, Republicans voted almost two to one for the F-22’s continued production (25 voted against the Levin-McCain amendment), but there were conservative GOP heavyweights who voted against the plane. For example, Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona is a stalwart conservative on many defense matters. A reliable supporter of all things missile defense, Kyl voted with his Arizona colleague, McCain to oppose the F-22. Sen. Mike Enzi, another solid conservative, voted with Kyl.

Those who wanted to continue production were a distinctly more conservative lot. Some 25 Republicans voted with 14 Democrats and one Independent to keep building the plane. Sen. Joe Lieberman, a conservative on defense matters, was the one Independent voting for the plane. Of course, Lieberman was not the only Connecticut senator voting for continued production. Sen. Christopher Dodd, generally one of the more liberal members of the Senate, cast his lot with continued production. After all, there are as many as 2,000 F-22 jobs at stake in Connecticut. Dodd and Lieberman were joined by Sen. Barbara Boxer, one of the most liberal members of the Senate in voting for the F-22. Finally, they were joined by the former head of the Senate Appropriations Committee, Sen. Robert Byrd of West Virginia, and the current head of the committee, Sen. Daniel Inouye of Hawaii. The vice president lobbied his former colleague, Inouye, to no avail. Inouye’s Hawaiian colleague, Daniel Akaka, also voted to keep building Raptors.

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Great, now we can get on to other things like managing the F-35 program.

I wish they would keep the line open one more year. A lot of the arguments AGAINST procuring more are simply because the plane hasn’t matured yet. If in a year they still decide it’s not worth it, then fine…otherwise they haven’t shot themselves in the foot by making a brash decision.

Big,Big Mistake! Yes we need the F-035’s and let’s get going on them!. In the Short run no we don’t need more F-22’s, But in the long run we will need then, and we will all wish we had them.

If OSD and The Senate say that we don’t needs any more F-22s, then why can’t we sell a bunch to the Japanese? They want them, and need them, to counter the superior Chinese air-to-air fighters.

I’m looking forward to three years from now when “budget requirements” cut the production of F-35. It’ll be amusing to see people use the same justifications for cutting F-35 that they used for cutting F-22.

Now I’d like to see Gates use some of this clout to fix procurement. There’s NO good reason why a decent fighter– or anything else– needs to take this long or cost this much to field.

from the weekly standard:

A Good Day for the ChiComs

One defense expert emails his thoughts:

Clearly the White House and Gates were able to strong-arm wondering Dems, like Kerry in particular. I would say prospects in conference not good; House provision was weaker and so are the House politicians involved.

At a little higher level, this is what happens when defense budgeting is a zero-sum game. Even any Army end-strength increase is going to have to come out of some other hide (don’t expect that allegedly walled-off FCS money to be around very long).

This is also a very good day for the ChiComs: less for them to worry about, not only from us but from the Japanese (this pretty much kills export of F-22). And it is a big step in confirming the long-term decline of US defenses that the Obama budget/program represents. Even if much/most of his domestic program doesn’t make it, he’s begun locking in yet another decade of defense neglect.

There will soon be a crisis of American airpower: old F-15 and F-16s, aging F-18s and not enough of them to fill carrier decks, too few F-22s (that you’re going to be very reluctant to use) and late arriving (and limited) F-35s (and what’s the likelihood that F-35 goes forward according to plan?), plus a dinky and old bomber fleet. I haven’t worked out the numbers, but if you look forward 7–10 years, the picture has got to be very ugly.

But then again, since there are going to be no tankers, it doesn’t matter that there are no fighters.

Brilliant! We are going to spend $770B to stimulate the economy, on who know’s what poorly thought out basis, but we don’t have enough money to keep the only USAF fighter in production until the next USAF (attack oriented) aircraft, F-35, has shown any capability to replace it.

As the F-35 program continues spiraling into the toilet, we are killing a program with known and affordable costs and unparalleled effectiveness. This is done in favor of an aircraft we hope is good enough in the air-to-air role.

Well it will help pay for the next F-35 cost over-run. Hope we make buddy buddy across the world really quickly so we won’t need air dominance. Because we are choosing not to have it as an option. Ground pounders beware.

PS — Why weren’t there similar cries of unaffordability when F-35 development costs increased by $10B and overall program costs doubled??? How is that “affordable”?

Instead of cancelling the F-22, we could have bought 40, supported the supply chain for the F22 and F35 which is signifcantly the same, and exported 60 to Japan and 20 to Australia; what Gates is prepared for is a 5 year gap in actual purchases of fighter aircraft. And he has yet to grasp that an airborne platform is considerably more than simply countering other fighters, and the assumption of air superiority is simply that.

“Senate stripped $1.75 billion for seven new F-22 fighters jets”, so that leaves us at 187 planes by 2010. Some comments here make it sound like we are talking about hundreds of jets when we’re talking about 7.

Some of the comments in the link below, from a site that referenced this article when you first posted it, are pretty insightful in terms of arguments about job loss (don’t forget that creation of F-35s, and more of them in quantity, require a lot of work):

http://​www​.defensetech​.org/​a​r​c​h​i​v​e​s​/​0​0​4​9​4​2​.​h​tml

PS: Note that defense spending has increased percentage wise in other progressive domains that seem to point to continued air superiority, not to mention that some important people on both the dem. & rep. side supported this scaling back by 7 aircrafts. It’s a re-allocation of money to other aircrafts and projects, not just a reduction, right?

Badison: We *are* talking about hundreds of jets, as in the hundreds of jets that will never, ever be built now. I hope that nobody wrecks any of those F-22s, or gets into a war with them, because those 187 planes are the only ones we’ll ever have. EVER.

I think it would be a mistake to equate this “victory” to Gates’ “power”. The employees from the F-22 will eventually move on to the F-35. the money spigot will be wide open and all the snouts will be feeding at the trough. Some might be tempted to equate this outcome as an indication that Gates will get his way on the tanker. I would counsel “not so fast.…”

We can afford a trillion$ for economic stimulus and also for health care, but not a few billion for air dominance. The F-35 is an F-22 with one engine, a dog, with far less top speed, far less acceleration and maneuverability. The real truth, a huge cost increase is coming for the F-35. An independent PAE study showed cost increases so high they wouldn’t even release the numbers beyond 2015. The F-22 is being cancelled to pump up F-35 production in an attempt to lower its cost and save its international sales. We are giving up air superiority to sell 500 of these dogs overseas. Russia and the Chinese will see this and build far more air superiority fighters. Victory is in sight for them.

You know, all you supporters of the F-22, you’re kind of weak in the knees. That cancelling the F-22 is America’s death knell and the “Chicoms” are going to take over, when we still spend as much as the rest of the world combined on defense sounds like the kind of thing someone writes from underneath their bed, cowering in fear. Don’t worry, little girls, someone will protect you.

I in Xanten today visiting the Roman ruins. While there I read a quote from some ancient Roman philosopher, or ruler, or some such thing.
He said, that when a people can be bought the Senators will not be far behind.
When I read the comments about the F-22 vs. F-35 debate I think about the comment above.
A Green Beret with a degree in comparative religion and psychology is a more potent weapon system than a squadron of F-22s.
In today’s world a good sound bite is worth more than a daisy cutter.
Why does the US have so many enemies? OOOOhh I almost forgot, it is your freedoms.

Geez…i can’t believe some of the things i’m reading. Did anyone take note that the $1.75 billion was for ONLY 7 MORE aircraft. So all you supporters out there are telling me that 194 acft instead of 187 is whats going to make America safer. I’m in the army flying 30 year old UH60 Black Hawks. This is my 4th deployment and have yet to see an F-22 except on the internet. Why continue to spend $$$ on an acft that has provided absolutely ZERO effort to the war.

Badison & Rodney Bryant,

What you are missing is that those (largely symbolic) “7 aircraft” were to keep the F-22 program alive for FY2010 so that we could do this all over again in FY2011 (debating how many more F-22 to buy).

Production should continue into 2013 so some politicians with a brain could get us the number of F-22As we need.

Pray the Raptor program is ressurrected as the F-22B. (or F-22C if that was reserved for the planned two-seater)

Rodney Bryant,
Thank You!

The $1.75 billion for these whopping 7 more planes was not extra money. It was money to be taken away from personnel and operations and maintenance accounts in the Army and Air Force.

There’s one MAJOR problem with this that F-22 haters are missing.

Its not about this war, its about the next war. It’s not like once we’re done in Iraq and Afghanistan that everyone will lay down their arms and declare everlasting peace. That only happens in movies…

Oh and if were going with the argument the F-22 isn’t needed in Iraq or Afghanistan, why did we only cancel the F-22 and not the F-35 aswell? The F-35 is a stealth strike fighter, why do we need stealth strike fighters to fight civilians with guns? After all Gates said we’re going to be fighting insurgents in the future, NEVER again are we going to be in a conventional war.. Iran and North Korea are just figments of our imagination. North Korea doesn’t have a large army (their technology may be extremely out-dated but they still have the numbers) and Iran isn’t buying top of the line Russian made Air Defense systems that can detect and cause havoc to the aircraft we have now.

We aren’t EVER going to be in another conventional war against Russian or Chinese made top of the line equipment. Russia and China aren’t developing their own Gen5 aircraft together to counter our F-22. And China’s recent build up and modernization of their military is simply misunderstood, they are just building it for a nice military parade, and their air force that is larger then ours? That’s just for Chinese airshows. Oh, and their first aircraft carrier their building, that’s just to transport those airshows around the world and do a tour with them. They won’t EVER attack their neighbors they disliked for along time and reclaim territory they claim is theirs. They will NEVER need to expand their fuel supplies with their growing economy, in a world where fuel supplies are running out.

And Russia hasn’t been modernizing their military either, they aren’t becoming more aggressive in the former Soviet Union. And that invasion of Georgia was just a military training exercise with live ammo. Oh and their demands we not incorporate Georgia or Ukraine into NATO is just to keep “Neutral” nations inbetween them. They don’t want to expand their borders again. And their President isn’t a ex-KGB officer that controls the current Prime Minister. And them sending their naval forces back into the open sea was advanced cruise ships carrying tourist around the world with combat systems on board incase pirates attacked them.… in the Caribbean. No, this is just all figments of our imagination. After Iraq and Afghanistan everyone is going to lay down their arms and declare world peace. Yea right… and I’m Santa Clause.

Zach,

All good points. Why so glum, though? Who says the commies are always going to be in control in China, or that the Ruskies are always going to be an adversary? Are the Norks or Iranians really an existential threat? What possible threats are we ignoring that could spring up?

Bad stuff is gonna happen, sure. What makes you think we’d be prepared for it with 60 or 200 more, or conversely, unprepared with a few less fighter planes? The history of fortune-telling war is unkind to the fortune tellers. F-22 is a really incredible machine, but too expensive, thus rare. War is unkind to silver bullets.

I’ll go one step deeper: The US doesn’t have a grand strategy that I can see, apart from “Dominate Everything.” Weapons should be designed with the strategy they’re meant to support in mind, and so we get systems like the F-22: the “Air Dominance Fighter”. Problem is, “Dominate Everything” can’t last, especially not with our economy, the low-intensity wars we’re in, or other fundamental problems like aging population, etc. And then there’s that whole world out there we don’t control. Those silver bullets are awfully neat toys, and they’ll do a lot of damage to be sure… but regular bullets work just fine, and they’re cheap.

I think cutting the F-22 was a good and necessary step towards breaking bad old habits and making better choices. We need to be more realistic in our goals, more flexible and less wound up over every little hiccup out there. Some more optimism wouldn’t hurt.

Mike,

I’m only so glum on this issue, cause after reading comments about the F-22 for awhile now, it seems those who support canceling the F-22 seem to think we will never be in a conventional war again. And while what you said Mike makes alot of sense, and I can agree with alot of it, it is still better in my opinion to be prepared for the worst, even if it doesn’t happen. Then to let the worst happen and not be prepared for it. “Prepare for the worst… hope for the best”.

Btw, you brought up the cost, I’ve seen studies that show if we bought more F-22’s the price would fall, how much the price would fall I don’t remember. But the extra cost of the plane is development cost we haven’t paid yet. (Why we don’t pay for the development cost during the time things are being DEVELOPED I have no idea).

“Its not about this war, its about the next war”

Actually, it’s about the last war, the one against the Soviet Union that never came. The next war’s going to look like Iraq and Afghanistan and Somalia and so on.

Priorities are critical in the terrain and strain of AFPAK. It seems that some of you still do not get the basics of bringing 400AD to 1776AD, so that we are not subject to EMP over here.

OK, to be illustrative here, I will say it is like worrying about a current single bee sting from a distant hive, when a hornets nest is sitting on your head!

The U.S. Air Force is and will have to contribute more to the conflict that we are in or the money we spend there may mean the reduction of that force! How the USAF reacts to this will be critical to it’s survival. Anybody want to take a nap in farm ranch silo?

I say put some of the Marine Corps Air Wing
with the Air Force just to keep them honest until they decide how committed they are to changing the way they support the rest of the war fighters. Do they need to change their officer/enlisted ratios with more combat going to enlisted? Recruit pilots from the PJ ranks, maybe that will wake them up about the responsibilies in AFPAK. What about A-10 pilots in leadership positions?

What I do know is that they are not top gun trained, only AF standards.
We need Top Gun to be the standard for all combat pilots with a real budget, not a reduction. It was a shame the way F-4 pilots were blasted out of the skies by gun fire from MIGS, the first years of Vietnam because of the lack of pilot skills until Top Gun was established.

Do some of you remember the analysis that was given about AFGHAN. prior to us going in after 9/11? If we get bogged down, you won’t have to worry about the F-22 since we will not have money to fly it. We have the capacity to tool up and down at will to produce anything we need in a timely fashion, that is if we decide to put this country on a WAR footing, instead of putzing around the rosey about the cost of a plane for profit to the defense contractor.

The other big vote of the day when the F-22 was cancelled was the approval of 30,000 troops for the ARMY over the next 3 years. Is this becoming a little clearer now? DEFSEC Gates only asked for 22,000.

http://​www​.dodlive​.mil/​i​n​d​e​x​.​p​h​p​/​2​0​0​9​/​0​6​/​a​f​g​h​a​n​-​s​e​c​u​r​i​t​y​-​f​o​r​c​e​s​-​c​o​n​t​i​n​u​e​-​t​o​-​g​r​o​w​-​g​a​i​n​-​c​a​p​a​b​i​l​i​t​i​e​s​-​g​e​n​e​r​a​l​-​s​a​ys/

While Obama sends our nation spiraling into trillions of new debt, his $1.75 billion in savings by cutting the F-22 amounts to less than one third of one percent of the overall 2010 defense budget. This is not about saving money.

This is about limiting the power projection capability of the United States to hamstring our sovereign options in the future. As taught to him by his pastor Jeremiah Right and fellow traveler Bill Ayers, Obama sees American power as the true threat to the world.

Whether it is eliminating the F-22, the Next Generation Bomber, the DDG1000, the FCS, gutting ABM or reducing the number of flexible strategic system, the one consistency is that Obama means to cut America down to size….

dow,

FOX NEWS BS! Power projection my a**! Keeping our people alive on the ground is the issue.

How is it that the DEF budget went up in real numbers?

http://www.defenselink.mil//news/newsarticle.aspx?id=55190

I thought that I had relayed this story earlier but in my old age maybe I only imagined it.
My dog is not very well trained. It does know that it is not supposed to defecate on the sidewalk. Well today as I was walking my dog down a wide paved bicycle path between two wheat fields we came upon this clump of dirt laying on its side with about a dozen wheat stalks and a daisy growing out of the clump spread over the pavement. Well my dog squatted down and dropped his load with perfect precision right on that clump of dirt. The best trained pilot in the US Air Force could not have dropped it more perfectly. Any person who walks along this path today and comes upon this work of art will not be able to believe that it was created by two separate and totally unrelated events.
The moral of the story is, that today even the most precise bomb in the US inventory is not worth a piece of dog “waste”. You may be able to come up with another moral to the story but if it contradicts my moral you did it would not agree with me, myself and I.

“While Obama sends our nation spiraling into trillions of new debt, his $1.75 billion in savings by cutting the F-22 amounts to less than one third of one percent of the overall 2010 defense budget. This is not about saving money.“
The previous admin tried to scuttle the F-22 and didn’t succeed. If the powers that be are in consensus on the issue, then one could conclude that indeed money is being saved by not spending it on something the consensus says isn’t needed.

The F-22 is the most advanced (declassified) air to air combat plane in the world, which was commissioned to replace the FA-18. It would certainly create air superiority in any battle field. I really don’t think that the pentagon would leave us defenseless. Remember how we all of the sudden had the F117 stealth fighter bombers in the first Gulf War? If we were to enter into a war that requires advanced air to air capabilities, I wouldn’t be surprised if we
would have something else up our sleeve.

Obama 1
Military Industrial Complex 0

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

Supporters of the F-22 forget that the airplane was a product of the Cold War. It was a weapon system designed to counter the red menace, the Soviet Union. But, with the end of the Cold War, circumstances changed and the need for the F-22 diminished. Then as F-22 delivery was delayed and its costs spiraled, America and China became economically interdependent, thereby reducing the likelihood of armed conflict. Yet the Air Force and its corporate allies dogmatically said America needed the airplane. While working at Air Combat Command in 2002, I vividly remember staffers trying to justify the need for the F-22 while raping other programs to keep paying for the Raptor. The facts are that the world has changed since the F-22 was first conceived. Economist John Maynard Keynes once asked a question that I’d like to ask F-22 supporters: “When the facts change, I change my mind – what do you do, sir?”

William Lind says that every officer should read Ideas as Weapons. Why the hell not every NCO and
enlisted man as well? Better yet why not every citizen? (I get a special exemption my the way due to my special status)
William Lind says that we need to read it before we bomb and rocket ourselves to defeat. Did he say defeat in Iraj and Afghanistan? I can not really remember?
But where in the heck our the American people really get their ass kicked the worst? Is it possible that William Lind really believes that this book needs to be read so that its lessons can be applied in the US and not half way around the world in some God forsaken desert.
Of course if William Lind were to even publicly imply such a thing he would loose all political credibility.
If you want to get back to the beginning you have to ignore the powerful people who define what is politically credible and join those weak and meek people who define what is politically incredible.
Maybe some F-22s would be nice, maybe not, who gives a rats gas when.…..when what, there are no serious problems in America that need to be solved and the minor problems will all be solved by engaging in Asian conflicts.….Oh my dog, I wasted my time. Jesus, I hate that!
Dorothea (Dorthy) Preuth

This is another example of the obama administration’s desire and intent to weaken the military. Every week we see another scheme to reduce our capabilities so the USA will have to rely on the UN AKA the United Nincompoops. By 2012 our military will ALL wear blue helmets.

“This is another example of the obama administration’s desire and intent to weaken the military”

So, what was it when Bush/Rumsfeldt try to end it?

“The F-22 is the most advanced (declassified) air to air combat plane in the world, which was commissioned to replace the FA-18.”

xx

NO, it was the replacement for the F-15.

xx

“Remember how we all of the sudden had the F117 stealth fighter bombers in the first Gulf War?”

xx

F117 made it’s public combat debut in Panama, Operation Just Cause, in ’89 I think it was.

With the cancellation of further F-22 production, we are saying that air superiority in the future will be a secondary consideration. A heck of a gamble IMHO. Another 60 F-22 purchased over the next 6 — 7 years would greatly reduce the risk.

To the poster who is working on 30 year old Blackhawks, some F-15s are the same age if not older. But it seems we are not going to replace them now. B-52 and KC-135s are a couple of DECADES older, so do not fret, your airframes are a long way from the oldest. I used to work acft older than 30 years, nothing but a thing.

To those of you who tout the F-22 as a product of the cold war and therefore obsolete and not needed, think of this; the A-10 is a cold war relic. You willing to get rid of them? How about LA class subs? B-52s? B-1s? Aircraft carriers? The thought of being worthless because something was conceived during the cold war is baseless.

To the poster who talked about USMC showing the USAF how things are done and Top Gun and all that crap; you are clueless and really do not know what you are talking about.

8% of the $787 billion stimulus given to DoD could have alleviated many of the decisions and ills being felt. Did the administration or congress do that? No. They spent the money a million dollar ham and on jobs where the funding will run out in 2 years so the states will have to pick up the tab.

With all the faith we are putting into the F-35, I hope it lives up to expectations. And even if it does, it will take 25 years before all are purchased. Guess those aging F-15s will have to soldier on.

Guess those aging F-15s will have to soldier on.
======================================
Yep, becuase the Air Force is stupid.

Has NO FAITH in Obama regardless of what he says. The man spins everything that comes out of his mouth !

Paul,

BS. Cold War or no Cold War, the threat in the coming decades from potential enemy fighters superior to the F-15 exists. We just don’t need 750 F-22s anymore but we DO still need F-22s and 187 IS NOT enough.

F-22 F-22 delivery was delayed was delayed in order to rethink & rework what it needed to be post-Cold War & the F-22 of today is a quite different beast than the YF-22…

The need for F-22s is not about the US fighting China!

The money saved here can be used to stimulate the economy on some more ‘shovel ready’ crap.

IMHO any conflict that is severe enough to deplete the 187 F-22’s and the other fighter aircraft will depend more on the economic success and manufacturing capability left in the US and it’s adversary. A scenario akin to WW2 where the US gradually gained upper hand due to superior manufacturing.

Either that or it will be a conflict where there will be very few of us left.

The debate over defence budgets is ongoing everywhere. Here in Denmark we made the “brilliant” decision to support our troops in Afghanistan better (good) and then proceded to cut down on tanks (very bad). Especially since our troops there have been asking for extra armour capability allmost since arriving.

If I had to choose I’d cut down even further on the F-35’s were apparently wanting to buy (we can’t afford many) to keeping more tanks in business.

Nevertheless you americans DO realise you’re not totally alone in the world?

NATO and the british, Danish and alot others are fighting alongside you in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Our President and Senate finally so “hell no” to the industrial complex! For too long we have been buying crap that we don’t need. A-10 are more useful that F-22. I do believe the Israelis cancel F-15 orders and use the savings to buy more “single engine” F –16 that still hold their own. F-15 Strike Eagles were created to justify the expensive F-15 existance. it’s the same her with over price F-22’s versus F-35’s. As far as “Force Projection” goes, I do believe that is still done with “old” F-18’s along with newer Super Hornets! Lastly we need more predators, reapers and global hawks than expensive F-22’s that ain’t made a single Taliban/jihadist take up residence with the EVIL ONE! UAV’s are the future and will replace expensive man aircraft including manned fighters that can on pull 12 g’s max! Just like WWII expensive Battleships need to be rethought and replace with newer, deadlier and long range weapons ( aka aircraft carriers with their planes).

Ops.. Sorry for the typo’s!

I think F22 defeat will only pave way to more advance aircraft, the F35 w/c is more advance than F22 and affordable.

Now just maybe they will fund the F-35, if the almighty doesn’t bailout anymore private businesses.

Before all of you toot your horn, the Senate vote, not as lopsided as percieved (by 18%)has no bearing on what happens. It is the House of Representitives that decides Military Spending, and if in fact the Raptor will be capped at 187 birds. I intend to hammer my Rep Roy Dyson of Md. to continue funding for a leat another 1 to 2 years. The threat that will matter is the one we dont see yet, Air Superiority or Air Dominance, which one do you want, when an unforseen enemy starts to attack your hometown. Deterence has always been the best measure, not stand head to head and go by attrition. Civil war tactics

I believe the responsibility for the F-22 cancellation rests squarely on the series of AF program executive officers and program managers and their industrial partners starting with Lockheed Martin at the top. The F-22 went into full engingeering development in the 1987 timeframe which meant that there were earlier technology exploration-identificatin efforts before that. You just can’t take over 20 years to field a weapon system and expect to hold the mission requirement, funding, and political backing constant and focused. How many failed-cancelled AF programs (and other services are just as guilty) do we need to learn this lesson? We need to shorten the development cycle times while also concentrating on delivering reliable and maintainable systmes that meet affordable life cycle costs. This is emmanently doable if we would stay on task with a stable set of requirements and the political and technical management resolve to satisfy them in quick order.

For the less stupid readers here.

Raising Army end strength increases jobs for unskilled laborers on the south side of Chicago, East LA and Juarez. Who does Obama care about and who cares about Obama ?

Killing the F-22 line lays off skilled labor and creates structural unmployment in California, Georgia, Connecticut and Massachusetts. In some places, there will be noticeable impact on the housing market and increased stress on banks. Apparently, John McCain doesn’t understand this either.

As Loren Thompson has written, Transformation is dead, and all you have left is political pork barrel criteria for keeping or killing programs. This foolishness will continue until some crisis takes place, panic sets in, resulting in even more uncontrolled and wasteful spending. The outyear budgets are not encouraging for those of us who care about military preparedness…slow squeeze to the bottom.

YOU KILL THE F-22, THEN WE ARE WEAKEN BY POWER. AND LIKE BILL R MANY JOBS WILL BE LOST AND THEN THERE WILL BE MORE PROBLEMS. WE NEED THE F-22 SO THAT WAY THE USA CAN GET RID OF THOSE WHO WANT TO HARM AMERICA. OBAMA REALLY NEEDS TO THINK THISA THROUGH. I THINK HE NEEDS TO LOOK WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST AND CHANGE HIS MIND.

So many tears from the fans of waste who do not understand even national defense deserves no blank check. and expenditures must be subject to the democratic (small d)checks and balances in the congress. defense programs are so wasteful and so poorly managed, while also hidden from honest view. we will win the next war, if it is winnable, without the F22. meanwhile the Nation has many pressing other things to spend on, including other, simpler things that the military needs. no more give-away and no-accountability to Lockheed Martin.

Like the Sgt york that came before it, the F-22 cost too much money and have yet proved to be an effective asset. When I first saw the F-22(at an air show)I thought it was the baddest bird I’ve seen sence the A-10, thats was before I saw the price tag, right away I thought somebody is ripping off the tax payers. You don’t pump that much money into anything to save jobs, cause if you did, I can assure you, you won’t be in business for long. If you can’t sell your product, then you don’t have a product to sell, simple. This F-35 is suppose to be as good or better than anything in the sky, I hope for the sake of the U.S. and the World we never have to find that out, but it remains to be seen. The SECDEF said from the beginning(based on the recommendations of his Generals)the F-22 cost too much and we don’t need it, I’ll go with that, after all, he is the subject matter expert. As far as I’am concerned, it’s case closed.

Many of our “allies” wish to purchase the F-22. there are features of it that the Air Force and the DOD don’t want anyone, including our allies to have, i.e. avionic systems, computers and communication systems to name but a few. If the F-22 were redesigned to remove or modify those features and the design and cost of the planes paid for by the potential buyer, our allied governments, would the Air Force and the DoD sell them (see Obama). This would the need for an increased design staff and possible keep production at current levels or (gasp, heaven forbide)increase those levels of employemnt. Can you say “STIMULUS”. Others want the F22. We need the sales. Keep It Simple Sam.

“Nevertheless you americans DO realise you’re not totally alone in the world?

NATO and the british, Danish and alot others are fighting alongside you in both Iraq and Afghanistan”

78stonewobble …You have to realize that the majority of these guys that complain and make this an “Obama” issue have probably never seen a paved road or lived in a house that didn’t have wheels on the bottom. So to answer your question “no” they don’t realize we aren’t in this alone. I guess they didn’t read that there were republicans that voted against it as well. Just look at the post from Varmint and it confirms everything I am saying. Fear propaganda created by Fox News no doubt. “He’s gunna take our guns!” “he’s gunna disarm our miltary” “he’s not really an American” I know, lets have a tea party!!! That’ll solve our problems.….

Just because they stop production on the F-22’s does not mean that we are going to stop using them. 7 more of these particular fighters will not sway the difference between air superiorty and air dominance, and if does come to that then it was piss poor planning not our assets. There is no reason why we can’t circle back around and start production again at a later date when the time or opportunity is right.

This HAS to be one of the worst decisions that
this administration has yet to make , having worked for a major airframe/engine company , I see a lot more people in the unemployment lines
around the country .
And those Morons in DC can’t see beyond them–
selves !

i remember DFAS and its series of multiple anagrams before DFAS telling us or the policy people from high up in The White House told us…all of us techies programmers with security clearances plus military service back in 93–94 that they needed to save cash so they needed to have us early retire. Transfers were near impossible as the other departments were trimming all of us down too. In the end; the real story was (contractors private contracts for private industry). SECNAV Perry told us get more skills. Contractors bridged their skills to get our jobs. Become more invaluable. Now; the news is DAFS is printing checks for inaccurate and with inaccurate data. Cyber warfare; many of us were thinking of that; but politics needed to feed our jobs to others in the name of cost cutting? To get rid of people; the tactics get real ugly; all sorts of wicked things happen to the military and civil service people; if someone says U Got Ta Go. Doesn’t matter if you are valuable. The attitude is you are low tech too low tech to be retained. They were wrong;but it doesn’t matter because they run the show for those who run the show. Maybe we can sell F22 Raptors and keep something to put an F22 Raptor tactical air squadron together. We can save cash by enforcing some kind of American National Standards. Standards applied to data integrity accountability responsibility loyalty. We need to continue our applied scientific green energy projects in DOD and in government. Lincoln offered civil service opportunities to his civil war veterans. Why waste good men, good money and good training? If John McCain says its not the time for the F22; then he is probably right from his beat down dogged humbled fighter pilots point of view. Trillions in debt; maybe 300 grand to create a single U.S. job. You could save a load of cash and give the client a 100 grand debit card to start their own small business? Government used to receive 90 per cent of its revenue from the small business sector. The Chinese currency is undervalued to undercut international competition. They undervalue their currency to beat U.S. ; so their behemoth can float. We sell our debt to Big China so we can float. Quid pro quo. Rome used to subcontract its legions. We can manage our assets better. We could spend billions on R+D. Something undesirable would probably enable the competition to reverse engineer our Raptor. It is a tough serious game; the business of competent government.

sw614,

Would you like to bet?

http://​www​.dtic​.mil/​d​o​c​t​r​i​n​e​/​j​o​i​n​t​_​d​o​c​t​r​i​n​e​_​d​e​v​e​l​o​p​m​e​n​t​.​htm

The CIC of Usurpers states that the F-22 would be a waste of money. What about the pieces of crap called Stimulus Plan and OBUMahealth? Talk about waste. Back in the mid-70’s we couldn’t even get toilet paper in USAREUR because of the other idiot peanut farmer, Jimmie-boy Carter.

Don’t worry be happy! They haven’t crushed all the F-14’s yet. We can always buy them back from the Saudis. It was a great plane. Besides just because China is advancing and the rest of the world, does not mean we need too. I mean Kenya has some French planes from the cold war. Most service people voted for Obama. So let change and hope be your watch word. Obama knows French so should our service people. We need to learn to be more like Mexico and Canada, useless.

Perhaps El Presidente, will be good enough to take the lead in a 4 plane formation. Into North Korean air defense’e in our “Gen III” fighters which were rolled out into service in 1972.

That’s right.….….….the F-15 Eagle was rolled out in 1972. So our boy’s and gal’s will be going up against.….Gen IV Russian fighters. I guess I don’t have to paint to many strokes on my canvas, to illistrate a picture, that is devestating.

Now there’s alot of folks out there that are going to say.….….What about the JSF Lighting II ?? Well.…What about it ?

The Raptor was designed to do (1)…one.….And one thing only. AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER and, that’s it’. The JSF Lighting II on the other hand, is on the other hand. Is supposed to do everything.…..How’s that worked out in the past ????

The JSF II is supposed to.….STOVOL, VTOL, Convential TO&L,and among other missions it’s supposed to.……Air to air, Air to ground, Air to sea.…..Hell, I guess they can also have it valet you’re car too.

Now a few questions.…..What happened to the Navy’s request that it’s figher’s have 2 engines ? This plane is still exspensive, and yet.…no thrust vectoring and.……more importantly, the JSF II is nowhere as stealthy as the F-22 Raptor is.

And I could go on and onas to why the Raptor is a better plane.….…Hell, Lockheed’s prototype LOST a fly of to the Raptor. No w you’re tellin’ me.……That Lockheed still wins, with a plane that wasn’t even designed to do what the Raptor does.

You’d think that looking back at the F-15 Eagle, that the US has a good expierence getting there monies worth out of an exspensive Airplane. The Eagle wasn’t cheap when it rolled out in 1972, it’s been in service some 37 years and is scheduled to fly for sometime. The B-52 Stratofotress was first bid on in 1946 and first flew in 1952. She is scheduled to be retired in (gasp) 2045 !!!!!!!!

Not fully funding these planes, is going to cost lives.…pure and simple.

The old saying goes, “Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.” My question is: Are we preparing for the worst? It doesn’t seem like it.

Huge mistake. F-35 was intended and designed to COMPLEMENT the F-22, not replace it. The Raptor is a substantial leap forward in aviation technology providing stealth without sacrificing performance. 187 fighters is not nearly enough for our long-term goals, especially when we’re suppose to be capable of fighing on two fronts. That has been one of our basic defense policies dating well back to the beginning of the Cold War. How do our beloved congressional leaders get around this? Oh, I know: fighting on two fronts is no longer necessary. I may usually be half asleep when I’m watching the news but aren’t we fighing on at least two fronts now and have been for the last six or seven years? Our defense gurus are expecting way too much out of the F-35. This program will undoubtedly run over budget just like everything else that the Osama administration wants.

Dont count on the F-35 ever getting into extensive service. Someone in Congress will probably decide it also is too expensive; then the Obama Administration, like Senator McCain, will decide that we need to buy something European, along with tankers and presidential helicopters.

IT DIDN’T WORK AS ADVERTISED! Read the news related to the latest F-22, and all the news about how it’s not as “invisible” as we were all lead to believe. IT DIDN’T WORK AS ADVERTISED!

Once again, a big “W” Bush MISSION ACCOMPLISHED to the Air Force for spending the most tax dollars on crap that doesn’t work, and if it does work, not using it in the wars we’re fighting today.

The WORST is a nuclear escalation, not among us, but factional regions like India and Pakistan, North and neighbors, Russian and neighbors, etc.

Do you honestly believe we would even consider pushing around a country, like Iraq, if they had nuclear weapons?

Nope. That is why the argument with China and Russia are irrelevant…they have nukes, and protracted wars with countries that have them are not an option, instead proxy wars are, with third world countries — and even the most advanced weapons can’t win those — remember Korea? Remember Vietnam? We had the best technological weapons, and still conceded.

So let the plane lay where it is, and move on.

As this administration continues to erode our defensive foundation, the Chinese PLA continues to increase their technological and military capacity. Not only economically, but geopolitically our past advantages are slipping away.

Unfortunately, we are starting the downward spiral that only corrective change will require. The F22 is only a start to this decline. Our only hope is to start to train for the Cold UW (My term called Cold Unconventional Warfare) mission we will need to prepare for based on this careless direction.

A boots on the ground example: Have you seen a GTA card on the order of battle for the PLA? It is not available, it has not been created because of the “impression” that we may need to prepare for the “unthinkable”.

Strong Survive, the weak.….

Dow has it right. It will become clearer for everyone over time and maybe it won’t be too late.

WOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOO now if we can get them to get ride of the the new SQN of B-52’s I think we will be all set

On a lighter note:

These planes look GREAT during Sporting Event Fly By’s. Lots of Ooohs and Aaahs for the $Billion$

The lesson not learned is we need to rethink and fix out procurement system. Period. I was there when we had the flyoff with Northrup. We didn’t pick the right fighter. Period. Both were close enough either could do the job.

Now, I can’t argue that the mergers and acquisitions and all the lets make money for the stockholders helped this fiasco, but there were no adults in charge looking at how much money was being poured down the rat hole.

At some point Congress WILL wake up and go, costs are too much, kill it. And in these economic times, thanks to a lot of bad economic decisions by Congress and the Executive branch over decades, we’re broke.

The idea that this is taxpayers money and that costs need to be watched and cut is not a culture that is in the contractor community, in this case USAF, or in the guys building the new bird. Its gotten worse over the decades. It seriously needs to change. We need to RIF some REMFs, so be it.

“187 fighters is not nearly enough for our long-term goals”

Ok.…JB, so you really think that we would only use Raptors in an air to air fight should the situation arise? and what makes you believe that the F-22 is in our “long term goals” anyway? Ever hear of coalition forces? Do you have any idea how long the complete lifecycle of an asset is from cradle to grave? Do any of you even know how much it would cost to dispose of an aircraft like the F-22? I guarantee you they wont end up in a desert lot in Arizona next to some old C-130!

These fighters haven’t even seen Iraq or Afaghanistan so what two war fronts are you reffering too sir?

I smell more Faux News.….

“They haven’t crushed all the F-14’s yet. We can always buy them back from the Saudis.”

xxx

The Saudi’s don’t own any F-14’s.
But the Iranians do.

Big Daddy,

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the F-22 was not designed to be ONLY an air superiority fighter. They packed ISR gear and bombs into it. Adding that to the plane reduces range, manueverability, increases cost, and development time.

I have a couple of thoughts on this matter , first i hear people say and have read many comments that the F-22 has never seen a day in combat . just for the record ( please do your homework if you don’t believe me) the airforce wanted to send the F-22 to IRAQ but Mr.Gates refused to send it because they were worried about how IRAN would react to the Raptor be sent to the sand box. second , I am sick and tired of hearing people use the phrase cold war platform. listen folks the F-15, F-16, and all the other platforms that have served us very well in the last three conflicts (gw1 Balkins, Gw2). an you imagine what shape the airforce would be in if we had only bought 187 f-15s in the ‘70s. Now they (f-15s ) are at the end of their service life and they will need to be replaced with something. At the begining of the F-22 program they stated that they were going to buy 750 f-22s and we have 187. I hope the F-35 program works out better . All indications are that the F-35 will cost around 100 milliom each and could reach as high as 140 million . I hope for the sake of my family and my fellow americans that this dispute between Gates and the airforce does not cost us in future conflicts. I hope the non trust vectored half as stealthy mach 1.5 little jet will be good enough when it really counts, the troops on the ground will need it to be!!!
P/S without spell check my spelling is awful –sorry

At 135 million per plane (wiki), that’s only 12 planes. The entire F-22 program is 65 billion, so 1.75 bil is about 2 percent of the entire program. Get a grip!

sorry folks i had a glitch on my laptop. , I was saying that the F-15 , f-16 and all the other platforms are all products of the cold war but have served us well in the past 3 conflicts. can you imagine what shape we would be in if we only bought 187 F-15s back in the ‘70s .

Sorry boys, the days of the unlimited candy store are over. We can’t be spending billions of dollars on fantasies and career paths. We need weapons (and intelligence work) to fight the real adversaries that we have now. Drones may not be very exciting but they are in daily use while the F-22 has no role to play in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Our existing fighter force will be a deterrent for many years to come. There are a lot more factors in deciding to go to war then just having advanced fighter jets.

Geez, 7 new F-22s for only a billion bucks. I feel the airplane manufacturer’s pain. I’d feel even worse except for the fact that we groundpounders are still stuck with that crappy beefed up .22 leftover from my war in VietNam and have to shoot up hill in the Hindu Kush was the equivalent of a peashooter. Give us a real rifle and I’ll look the other way while you waste some more money on a really, really expensive plane.

Anyone who is worried about the lost aerospace jobs should go check out a job posting board. There are currently thousands of open positions for people skilled in aerospace and defense engineering and manufacturing. It would be an easy transition for the displaced F-22 folks to move to any of those projects. The loss of jobs is a weak and uneducated argument!

Nord, you guys on the ground getting a new carbine or rifle has nothing to do with money. It is all politics. The Army is still testing carbines and rifles in 5.56x45mm and newer calibers. Yet the reason you won’t any results for another 10 years is due to the politics, not the funding.

Regardless we have just shot ourselves in the foot here by not buying the number of F-22s the USAF needs to replace the F-15A-D fleet.

We built 1000+ F-15s and over 5000 F-4 Phantom IIs. There is no excuse for the USAF not getting at least 400 F-22s.

We have been here before. Read Caidens book on the P-38. We only had budgeted for 100 of them before WW II. How many did we end up needing? How about the wooden guns on Washington buildings the day after Pearl Harbor. The killer for the F-22 is the stopping of the production line and the subcontracts. Much of the cost is in the avionics. HOw about just buying airframes with less capable avionics? Gates is an uneducated man who does not read history. Mr. President, use some of the stimulus funds to actually keep people at work on items that will help defend us.

kill a program that is wasting millions, how unusual for the army –now if we could kill the marine “take off like a helo and fly like a plane ” that cost 100 mill. each and arn’t suited for combat, now that is a feat

“We built 1000+ F-15s and over 5000 F-4 Phantom IIs. There is no excuse for the USAF not getting at least 400 F-22s”

$140+ million per copy seems to be a pretty good excuse for some people.

This price would go down on the F-22 once we pay for the development cost. (Which should be paid during DEVELOPMENT, but politicians are stupid).

I agree that we need more F-22s but not right now. I have a question if we stop production of the F-22 now cant we just start it up again in the future if we need to? Another point i would like to make is as of right now we dont need more planes we need more armor for our troops that means mraps to replace hummers. If cutting the F-22 Means that our troups get that armor or the other gear that they need RIGHT NOW i am for it.

Hey little ones, it is time to get our a– kicked, and once it gets kicked, the top boys will learn a lesson.

OBAMA LIES

“At a time when we’re fighting two wars and facing a serious deficit, … we can’t … support our troops, or prepare for future threats, or protect the American people. … who lose,” Obama said. … F-22 production should be stopped, etc.”

F22 is what protects the American P(SH)EOPLE~!

I wish they could keep the plane in production​.It took so many years to develope and now that it,s ready to be put in service, they pull the plug.For those of you who saying ” good, now we can get on with the F-35″, I,ve got news for you. The bean counters are already zeroing in on it as too expensive, unreliable,etc. The meatheads in Washington don,t want to pay for any new system. I guess we,ll just have to use the old stuff till the wings fall off.

Rondo: they did the same with the Comanche helo — almost 10 yrs in alleged r&d (cia had em) — plan cancelled 2005

War Pony, I think “the CIA had Comanches” might be the funniest thing I’ve heard all day.

This is also a very good day for the ChiComs: less for them to worry about, not only from us but from the Japanese (this pretty much kills export of F-22). And it is a big step in confirming the long-term decline of US defenses that the Obama budget/program represents. Even if much/most of his domestic program doesn’t make it, he’s begun locking in yet another decade of defense neglect.

I think the F-22A will have logistics difficulty in about 10 years, no parts!

Pitiful arguments for continuing the F22, all of them. Secretary Gates made the right decision to kill this “pork barrel project”.
The military is FOREVER focused on fighting the last war…the F22 puts an exclamation point on it.

This acquisition has been treated as a “pet rock” by 435 or so self-interested politicians who have only themselves as their primary interest.

Park it and move on.

Congressional Quarterly has just come out with the news we all knew was going to come, the F-35 is 2 years behind schedule.

http://​www​.cqpolitics​.com/​w​m​s​p​a​g​e​.​c​f​m​?​p​a​r​m​1​=​3​&​a​m​p​;​d​o​c​I​D​=​n​e​w​s​-​0​0​0​0​0​3​1​7​5​2​9​5​&​a​m​p​;​m​p​=​M​o​s​t​_​V​i​e​wed#

These facts were hidden from Congrees as the Senate was voting to terminate the F-22 production line and while ensuring that F/A-18 did not get a multi-year production contract. Based on how these efforts where shoved down Congress’ throat by Gates and Obama, there can be no doubt that there was a cover-up. My guess is that that is also why DoD is going to try to withhold the Selected Acquisition Reports on Nunn-McCurdy breaches.

People should be going to jail over this and the American public should demand a full investigation!

Oooops.

Almost forgot. Let me be the first to coin the phrase F-35-GATE !!!!!!!!

or F-35-GATES?

Did everyone forget that the F-35 r&d was hacked by the commies? Lockheed admitted the info drain went for hours.

…actually the narrow minded ones are the ones saying that “we do not need the F-22…” well yes today in Afghanistan! …BUT can anyone say for sure if 5 years from now, or 10 or even in 15 years from now we may not be in a shooting war with lets say China over Taiwan, or Russia over some territory they claim as theirs just like their “intervention” in Georgia, and then as we face them we wish we have had the vision to have continue building little by little the most sophisticated fighter in the sky, the F-22 instead of having killed it as we have just done? And once in that fight we surely will not be able to crap F-22 out of our behinds then, by that time it will be too late. As for the ones saying the F-35 is a good replacement, I say you are the same bunch that said the F-18 could fully replace the F-14…boloney! History repeats itself…the Pollack’s fighting German tanks with cavalry, the US not ready for WW2 because “Hitler was Europe’s problem” etc etc etc… the narrow minded ones are the ones ONLY seeing today’s problems and not being ready for the POSSIBILITIES of the next 20 years… like my first Navy Chief used to say: “The Stupid Shall Be Punished…”

When the Taliban and Al Quida get fighters, maybe we will have to rethink our fighter policy. But right now, no way. Good call, Secretary Gates. Let’s spend our precious tax dollars on today’s issues.

Maybe we should have a tax check-off for certain defense spending programs. Then people can put their money where there mouth is.

This is a very short sighted decision. The F15 fleet is ageing badly. Not only is the F22 the only replacement, other nations have in the field or on drawing boards fighter that are better and more advanced than the F15. What ever happened to providing out troops with the best availble equipment! We should take a page out out own history and lession we should already know, at the beginning of WWII we were out classed in fighter aircraft by both Germany and Japan. Is this what we are going to return to, being outclassed by other nations we may one day have an issue with, or one of there customers? Have our so called leaders forgotten we are in a resession and you are putting more people out of work. If you need more money, stop the failed bailouts program. Will the our future history books list Obama, Biden & Gates as the ones who destroyed America through their short sighted decisions!

i think this is time for repairs rather than destroying.

i think president OBAMA should rather face the repair work than continueing in danmaging.the work OBAMA to talk to with his good manner speach and not to take the that rough steps war and damage.i believe OBAMA is the right leader the world could have in this time so let say no for the f22 mission and let face total peace the world over.

If you read the military rags (as I have been doing for the last three years) on a regular basis, you should know the F-22 costs $355 million dollars a pop. The F-35 (currently) costs $239 million dollars a pop. Both of those numbers are from the Air Force Times — look them up.

JDS,

Any particular reason why you consider the F-22 to be a pork barrell project? This is the next-generation fighter that can meet our air-superiority needs for years to come. It may not be practical in the Iraq or Afghansistan operational theatres, but consider the future when we may be in conflict with North Korea, Iran, or even China. Would you rather have an advanced tactical fighter like the F-22 on hand or be scrambling to deploy the world’s most expensive, STOVL paper weight? As I said in my previous post, the F-35 is suppose to COMPLEMENT the F-22, not replace it. 187 planes is not enough to effectively fight a war against an adversary that possesses sophisticated surface-to-air capabilities. The increased costs for more F-22s can be offset by scrapping some older, obsolete weapon platforms.

My Republican friend in Georgia says the F-22s were axed because Georgia voted Red. I think it’s ridiculous bu wanted to throw it out there to see what response I get.

F-22 projects force, and provides jobs while the F-35 (not a dogfighter) R & D database “flew” into commie hands. The RAH-66 was on recon in ’96 — saw it. When the whip comes down, we will miss the progress made by continuing production — STAY IN THE GAME — like GW (endurance)~!

I think you will find compelling reasons for F-22 production halt at a fleet size of ~180 aircraft.

see link
http://​theboresight​.blogspot​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​0​7​/​a​i​r​b​o​r​n​e​-​i​n​f​r​a​r​e​d​-​a​n​d​-​s​u​p​e​r​s​o​n​i​c​.​h​tml

see link
http://​theboresight​.blogspot​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​0​6​/​s​u​p​e​r​s​o​n​i​c​-​r​a​d​i​o​-​s​p​e​c​t​r​u​m​-​a​i​r​f​o​i​l​s​.​h​tml

You’re all wasting your time.

WE AS A PEOPLE WASTE TOO MUCH MONEY ON FEDERAL PROJECTS LIKE THIS THAT WERE SPOCE TO GIVE A CHANCE FOR SUCCESS “WE NEED TIME TO WAIT AND SEE” IS FOOLISH AND LEAST PRIORTY IN AMERICA WHY NOT TAKE THAT 7 BILLLION DOLLARS TO SOMETHING MORE EFFECTIVE.

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