Senate Votes to Whack F-136

Senate Votes to Whack F-136

It probably won’t mean much in the long run, but the Senate voted today to approve an amendment by Joseph Lieberman (I-Conn.), long-time opponent of the F-136, to strip $438.9 million for the second F-35 engine.

It will be difficult to prove, but I bet this was one of those trades that were worked out before the vote to kill the F-22. Sen. John McCain supported Lieberman’s amendment and it was approved by voice vote — not a roll call vote, which would have left a very clear trail for everyone to follow. While this may be portrayed as another victory for the Obama administration, which has threatened to veto the defense authorization bill should it include the F-136 funding, I think the Obama administration’s position is secondary to any deals that were worked out before the F-22 vote.

The amendment would hold up the funding until the defense secretary tells Congress that building the F-136 would lead to lower program costs, improve the planes’ readiness and not disrupt the program’s development or result in fewer fighters.

McCain and Lieberman are very close and work together almost as well as the Arizona senator worked with the recently departed John Warner of Virginia. And McCain led the fight against the F-22, which Lieberman supported mightily.

The reason I think this probably won’t amount to much is that it was approved by voice vote and the House Armed Services Committee negotiators will note this during the conference discussions. Also, the appropriators are almost certain to include money for the F-136 program in their bill. Unless some deals we don’t know about yet were worked out during the authorization vote.

President Obama had threatened to veto the bill over the provision authorizing $439 million for the backup engine if he believes it would “seriously disrupt” the overall program.

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Hey why don’t we put that $4 billion towards more F-22As? Oh wait, that would be too smart for Congress.

We’ve gotten pretty good at spending on R/D and then not leaving sufficient funds to field what’s been developed in sufficient numbers.

Wow 2 grand slams in one game. That is something that does not happen very often. Did someone start pitching vor the other team? Fore!

If this comment makes no sense to you be happy it means that you learning to separate BS from perspiration for inspiration. At least that is what my Dawg says.

Don’t cry be happy everything in America is AOK.

America should have a petrified forest but not be a petrified forest.
OOOhhhh I forgot you got bullied by a Russian or a Chinese Aircraft carrier on your way home from school. There fore to make sure that your school is safe from a Chinese or Russian Aircraft Carrier AMerica needs to project is power all around the world. Hurray Hurray Hurray 3 cheers for “force projection”. It is just, just what the world’s republics have always been missing.
Einstein said that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity. I am obviously insane. But what the hell I have nothing better to do.
Waving a red flag in front of a stupid bull is the most exciting game in town, outside of baseball that is.

Mr. Clark:
BuddalovesPaine’s post preceeding this one absolutely begs for moderator intervention. If there’s a message in there, I missed it.

From TWS:

Now They Tell Us: JSF Two Years Behind Schedule

CQ’s Josh Rogin has a massive scoop that has the potential to upset administration plans to kill the F-22 after a Senate vote earlier this week seemed to seal the fate of the air supremacy fighter. According to Rogin, “An internal Pentagon oversight board has found that the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program is two years behind the publicly announced schedule, say multiple congressional aides familiar with the findings.” Why is that important? Because “as Congress has debated the future of the F-22 fighter program, lawmakers have used the promise of the F-35 plane’s completion as a key plank in their argument that the F-22 line could be ended without a significant risk to national security.”

One defense expert emails in response to the revelations, “Gates and company get caught hiding the ball once again. Just another piece of evidence suggesting the decision to end the F-22’s production was driven not by analysis and study but simply a desire to cut the budget.”

Indeed, it’s clear the Pentagon sat on a report that undermined the administration’s case for killing the F-22 until after a key Senate vote. “Now, senators and aides are lamenting that the Pentagon oversight panel’s more pessimistic view on the F-35 program was not publicly released during the F-22 debate and are calling for more open disclosure of the problems with the development of the F-35,” Rogin reports.

Assuming there are no further problems in production — an absurd assumption — “The oversight panel’s calculations determined that the fighter won’t be able to move out of the development phase and into full production mode until 2016, rather than 2014 as the program office has said.” Of course, the JSF program has already faced major delays and according to this Pentagon report, the additional two year delay “could cost as much as $7.4 billion.”

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell denies there’s been any cover-up, but as CQ points out, the Joint Estimate Team’s findings are at odds with statements from administration officials and members of Congress who had lobbied for killing F-22 as a redundant with so much already being spent on F-35.

Administration officials and senators repeatedly touted the F-35 program as the best bet to preserve U.S. air power superiority and as a primary reason that the F-22 program should be capped at 187 planes, as the Senate voted 58–40 to do on July 21.

“If properly supported, the F-35 will be the backbone of America’s tactical aviation fleet for decades to come,” said Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in a July 16 speech at the Economic Club of Chicago, “if — and it’s a big if — money is not drained away to spend on other aircraft.”

Experts said Gates’ tough rhetoric on the F-22 and his determined efforts to pressure senators to support the administration’s plan to end F-22 production would have been hurt had the Joint Estimate Team’s findings been widely known.

“If this information had been part of the debate over the last couple of months, several Democrats, many of whom switched their votes at the last minute, would have been much harder to persuade,” said Tom Donnelly, director of defense studies at the conservative American Enterprise Institute.

The kicker: Rogin reports that the F-35 program is such a mess that John Murtha has reduced the administration’s request for F-35 procurement funding by $530 million. The quote from Murtha, “This is a cut because we think they just can’t spend the money [they requested]…They’ve got to do a better job of oversight.” When John Murtha tells you you’re wasting money and doing a lousy job of oversight, you’ve got real problems.

It’s now clear that the Obama administration suppressed information that might have affected a Senate vote on a key national security program. It’s a breach of the public trust, and it’s evidence that this president is putting ideology ahead of national security. They were determined to kill F-22 come hell or high water. And they did. But it might not be too late to bring F-22 back from the dead.

And just for good measure, Aviation Week quotes “a senior U.S. Air Force intelligence officer”:

“The F-35 [Joint Strike Fighter] is not an F-22 by a long shot,” he says. “There’s no way it’s going to penetrate Chinese Air Defenses if there’s ever a clash.”

This is ridiculous… from a simple national security standpoint…

Currently… we have many DIFFERENT aircraft, with DIFFERENT engines on each one of them. If any aircraft is grounded for an airframe or engine related issue, we have many more to rely on.

If this holds in senate/congress… we will replace most of the US Air Force if not all with only 180 F-22s and many more F-35s. The F-22s with F119 engines, and the F-35 with F135 engines derived from the F119. Guess what happens if you have to ground the fleet due to an engine related problem, that may affect both aircraft… you just left your mighty air force without any airplanes to fight. (F-117 and B-2 are strategic and though powerful, in a serious all out war we would need to rely on more traditional fighters).

With that argument alone, the F136 should be fully funded and allowed to go into production.


I am providing a link for that cut and paste job by cvn.


Looks like the Pres may have to use that veto.

My son is at the USAFA. He says most cadets want the A10 as their dream choice. Interesting?

Thanks Drake
From TWS means from The Weekly Standard.

In any event, let barry veto our Air superiority capability while spending trillions on failed social programs and pushing socialized healthcare.

Have at it boy…

and another:

USAF General: F-35 No Substitute for F-22

One of the administration’s key arguments in killing F-22 was that the F-35 was coming down the pike soon enough and it would have much of the capability of F-22 but at a much lower cost. Apparently not everyone in the Air Force is convinced that F-35 is an adequate substitute. Aviation Week’s David A. Fulghum reports:

“I’m still planning on getting those airplanes,” says Brig. Gen. Peter Pawling, who earlier this year was commander of the Hawaii ANG’s 154th Wing and has now moved to the staff of U.S. Pacific Command. “I’ve been assured that [despite a smaller fleet] they are still coming to Hawaii.

“It’s just that the F-35 and F-22 are such different airplanes,” Pawling says. “There are those who think you can simply build more F-35s [to compensate for a smaller Raptor fleet]. But the F-22 is one of those once-in-a-lifetime airplanes. There is nothing out there that can fly against it. If we had a major conflict [against someone with advanced air defenses], I can’t imagine going in there with anything but an F-22.”

For Drake:

cvn did you just call President Obama: boy?

You know its funny how you never hear a Navy Admiral or Marine General claim that the F-35 can’t penetrate Chinese air defenses. Never a peep…ohhhh no Mr. Bill, I might have to face a 4.5 generation jet in my F-35, the horror…

It’s equally hilarious how the F-22 can be a over a decade late in totality when the Russian air threat was greater. Was the sky falling then? We fought lots of folks with 21 B-2s and 60 something F-117s penetrating air defenses.

Now with 187 F-22s and coming EA-18G facing weak threats without ANY 5th gen fighters, two years in delayed full rate production is a national catastrophe…and that’s if its true…and that’s if it’s not based on a Congressionally MANDATED 2nd F-35 engine. You can’t cut funds from the program and divert them to a second engine (as the House proposes)and still whine that the program is late.

Wait, if it’s two years late, does that mean we will have just 350 5th generation fighters to our opponents handful?

Geez, the rest of the USAF seems to do their jobs just fine without a peep…only parts of the fighter community and its contractors/lobbyist are worrywarts about Soviet/Chinese aircraft that have never beaten non-stealthy F-15/16/14/18, let alone a F-22/F-35.

The reason you don’t hear Admirals and USMC flag not talk about penetrating PRC defense is because it is the AIR FORCE’s job to kick the door in…NOT the USMC or the USN and certainly not the US Army.…it was alway the F22’ job to kick doors.…not the F35.
I can assure you that attacking S300s mated with SU30s in an Eagle or Viper let alone a Hornet would a “very close run thing”…again, that’s why the AF fighter pilots wanted the Raptor
The rest of you posting was equally silly…
You should talk with some F16/F15/B1 Weapon School guys that face the F22 in the ME phase…it’s brutal…BUT OH, we wouldn’t want to ask the experts, we should listen to guys in suits and so called “defense experts”…so be it

It seems the USAF is getting screwed over by Gates and company at every corner, despite their willingness to buy some more dedicated COIN aircraft, and their huge expansion to the UAV fleet over the years.

BuddhalovesPaine are you serious? If your not going to contribute anything besides for your liberal “cut everything” nonsense, why are you posting here.

Don’t Feed The Trolls.

Cole: “You know its funny how you never hear a Navy Admiral or Marine General claim that the F-35 can’t penetrate Chinese air defenses.”

Yeah, you know why? It’s because those Navy and Marine commanders know that the F-35 is the best they’re going to get for the forseeable future. Of course they’re going to talk it up–it’s hard to keep up your troops’ morale when you’ve got the commanders saying “yeah, our frontline fighters are crap, and we haven’t got any plans to get anything better”.

Recon Team,
Why I am posting is here is to encourage people to become Iranian or Russian Spies and actually do some good for the the United States of America and the world. Or if that is asking to much not to reenlist.
Why Colin allows me to to contribute here is anyone’s guess. He may actually believe in free speech. You may find it ironic that I support spying for a country that does not allow free speech. Because the battle for human dignity in Iran is an important battle that affects the lives of almost 70 million people but the battle against US imperialism in a critical battle that affects the lives of almost 7 billion people.
I need to post frequently because the threads pass in to history.
Having said that I do not believe that the US should have no military at all. I do believe that every member of the current military industrial complex should be fired except for 1LT. Watada and the couple dozen NCOs who have refused duty to deploy to Iraq for occupation duty and they can rebuild the US military in a manner that is consistent with a Republic and not an Empire which means overwhelmingly of reserve forces, except for NORAD.
That being said I would like to say good point to VTVR4. You made a point that even I can appreciate, about one single type of engine being used on the vast majority of our aircraft,
although I suppose if a systematic problem were found 1/3 or 1/4 of the aircraft could be grounded at one time.
One final point is that since threads fade in to history my calls for resistance in the US military to the chain of command have to be repeated over and over in hopes that one person who can be reached just might stumble across such an appeal and decide to act rather than just bitch.
Am I acting or just sitting on my ass you ask?
What the hell, do you want me to provide evidence over the internet that could actually hold up in court!

Logic check,

Door meet foot. Historically, Army/Marine feet have been more than up to task, while airpower feet pedaled continued counterpart resolve (sans nukes).

Even when USAF airpower was decisive in one 1999 instance (with ample Joint airpower assistance), without feet on the ground, surrender could have quickly returned to sadistic genocide, as occurred regardless during 78 days of bombing when little of Serbia’s ground military was damaged or deterred.

If Admiral Fallon and General Cartwright believed Soldiers/Marines, carriers, surface ships, and Navy/Marine aircraft were better protected by F-22s “kicking down the door,” they would have said so instead of recommending more EA-18G jamming and F-35 bombing capacity.

Apparently, they understood that ground coalition troops actually ARE kicking down (and knocking on) doors with Joint airpower support, instead of spouting air-to-air hyperbole with nary a U.S. ace in sight.

General Schwartz probably knew that a QDR single major war strategy nicely aligns with 187 F-22s when complemented by Joint F-35 totals. Imagined unlikely threats don’t cut it.

Objective flag officers must be recognizing the obvious:

****Due to economic interdependency and risk of MAD, there are few realistic scenarios where near peers fight: check

****Near peer threats lack technology for 5th gen fighters and better air defenses than ourselves, and have systemic engine, quality control, avionics, missile, and radar deficiencies: check

$$$$ Near peers can’t come close to outspending us on defense to afford 5th gen fighters and superior air defenses in quantity, or with adequate training and O&S: check

$$$$ Minor threats are unable to afford 5th generation jets and double-digit SAMs in quantity, and would be squashed like bugs on your windshield, while the ground fight and stability operations would remain essential and highly hazardous: check

$$$$ Many threats cannot afford any quality air forces at all, cough, North Korea

****TBM threats (poor nation’s air force) shift our land-based fighters further from the fight and place them at risk. More F-22s on the ground nearby means more F-22s destroyed on the ground by missile vollies: check

****Stealth on F-22/F-35 and less true stealth on threat fighters, if ever: check

****Allies happy to have stealthy 5th generation fighters: check

****AESA radar on nearly everything to include Golden Eagle F-15s: check

****AIM-120D/AIM-9X on nearly everything: check

****DAS and integrated EO/IR for IR search and track and ground ISR/targeting, helmet mounted displays, software favoring more modern processing power on a decade newer F-35: check

$$$$ More tankers adding more F-35 station time and range from distant bases: check

****More AWACS and inherent similar vectoring capability in F-22/F-35: check

****EW from lots of current/future assets: check

****Air-launched decoys, towed decoys, and coming stealth UAS (UCAV/MQ-X): check

****Advanced HARMs and future Joint Dual Role Air Domination Missiles: check

****B-2 fleet to bomb airfields with 80 SDBs: check

****Patriot, THAAD, Aegis SA-3, SLAMRAAM: check

$$$$ Better F-35 prognostics, maintainability, and mission capability rate to reduce O&S cost to, gulp, $760 billion: check (only because of the nightmare F-22 O&S cost alternative for similar quantities)

Guess the guy in the suit that counts, saw:

—Facts from the above checklist
—USAF exaggeration of current/future threats and ample capacity to deal with them
—Current/future threats favoring air-to-ground in support of more boots on the ground to kick down/knock on doors rather than dogfight windmills

Having civilian control of the armed forces: PRICELESS

Roger that! First reapeater on.

What is really needed around this town (building) is not more stupid IRREVERENT Facts What is needed is

Cole makes a good point. Even with all of this capability, we are somehow powerless when dealing with A300 and A400 missile sites??!!

I meant S300 400

Cole et al:

Much of the reason that there aren’t any extant near-peers it that it IS so expensive to get to our level. If our level is no longer high, then maybe it’s not so hard to get there after all. “Deterrence” means more than just “we can blow you up”.

Cole: You’re putting a lot of weight on TBM threat to fixed bases.

A: as I’ve said, THIS STILL APPLIES TO THE F-35. It’s cheaper to buy more missiles than it is to build more airbases.

B: Accurate TBM is not a trivial technology issue. We’re not talking about FROGs, here. Your “they’ll never have the technology” argument is as applicable to TBMs as it is to high-spec fighter aircraft. And there are a great many defenses against TBM–and wouldn’t it be easier to defend fewer locations than many? Isn’t that an argument in favor of consolidation (and the F-22)?

C: Maintenance costs. Allow me to pull an argument from the V-22 discussion and point out that the F-22 has been in service for less than four years. And I recall various glowing projections of how easy it was going to be to maintain the F-22; and I’m seeing those same comments in all the Powerpoint packages about the F-35. Why should we think that the F-35 will be any less expensive to operate than the F-22?

Why should we think that the F-35 will be any less expensive to operate than the F-22?

Cheaper less extensive coatings?

We could at least add a 3D thrust vectoring nozzle to the F-35A and F-35C now to partly make up for the loss of the F-22As the USAF was supposed to get.


I would like to see that also!


Yep. barry boy..

Bill Sweetman runs down the seven memes that dominated the arguments against F-22. And then he explains why they are all based on “assumptions that are, at best, unproven.”

Meme number 1: The F-22 hasn’t been used in Afghanistan or Iraq. In itself this is a statement of the obvious. What makes it a meme is the corollary that the F-22 is militarily irrelevant. However, there are many capabilities that haven’t been used in those theaters — submarines, for instance — but nobody seems to panic as we keep spending money on those.

Meme number 2: The F-22 was an airplane that the Pentagon did not want. Since when has the Pentagon been of one mind? The right number of F-22s was the subject of controversy within the Pentagon; and the firings of the two top Air Force leaders a year ago were clearly related to that argument.

Meme number 3: The F-22 is a Cold War weapon and therefore obsolete. Again, no argument, the requirement was written in the Cold War — but the same can be said of supercarriers and submarines, the Virginia being a downsized Seawolf. The Joint Strike Fighter’s basic requirement document, although it is post-Cold War, precedes the current conflict, Bosnia and the other unexpectedly messy contingencies that have followed Desert Storm. It wasn’t designed to chase Terry Taliban around the Af-Pak border, any more than the F-22 was.

Meme number 4: The F-22 was designed to shoot down enemy fighters, and there are few of those so we need few F-22s. But as anyone who was around for the start of the project knows, the combination of speed, altitude and all-round stealth was aimed — absolutely and intentionally — at defeating SAMs.

Meme number 5: The F-22 is an unreliable hangar queen — the WaPo said so. So coincidentally, just before a narrow vote, all sorts of Pentagon sources decide it’s their duty to leak all kinds of negative (but arguable) stuff about the F-22. It might have been that way. Barney might be a real dinosaur.

Meme number 6: The JSF will cost “half as much” as the F-22. It’s more correct to say that the F-35A may get to that point (the B and C certainly won’t), once full-rate production gets going, if from now on the program performs far better than any previous Pentagon project. Which, so far, it has not done. Even then, to do this it has to break the model under which similar aircraft, built under similar circumstances, tend to cost about the same amount in terms of dollars per pound of empty weight. Nobody has done that yet, either.

Meme number 7: The F-22 takes money away from the “warfighters” and their real needs. Apart from being a handy emotive criticism of any weapon that you don’t like that’s not a container-load of body armor or a one-war-wonder MRAP, it’s not correct. What the USAF has been talking about for years is — given that you’re going to maintain a fighter force — what the right mix of F-22s and F-35s might be within a given budget.


Bill Sweetman should also make a list of the seven memes that dominated the arguments for the F-22. Lord knows we see both daily in every F-22 related story.

Little tidbit off topic(forgive the drift) our Aussie friends are soon to take delivery of their first F/A-18 Super Hornets with the designated name ‘Rhino’ many of which will be wired for later conversion to EA-18G should the need arise. Gotta love our friends down under.


How old are you? 12?

If you think we have nothing to worry about go to this,http://​blog​.flightstory​.net/​1​2​9​/​v​i​d​e​o​-​f​-​2​2​-​r​a​p​t​o​r​-​v​s​-​s​u​-​3​7​-​v​s​-​s​u​-​3​0​-​v​s​-​e​u​r​o​f​i​g​h​t​e​r​-​t​y​p​h​o​o​n​/​and check out the Su37, its coming to every two bit dictator in the world

It will be a great thing if every two bit dictator has a SU37 to use against other two bit dictators. Besides many Americans would not recognize a two bit dictator if one came up and bit them in the ass. This idea that we have to be worried because Venezuela has Su37s is complete childishness. The only way the F15 would ever face a Venezuelan SU37 in combat is if the US is trying to invade some Latin American country.

How many two bit dictator’s can properly support an SU-37 airwing and keep its pilots properly trained? How many two bit dictators have the full backing of the U.S military? These two bit dictaor’s ala Saddam have all this high tech eqquipment, but lack the money and experience to use it to its full potential. his goes for all conventional capability.

@ Drake1

its not a matter of if they can… it is do they? Other things to consider:

1. I think most 2 bits dont get top notch tech in their export versions
2. They send their sons and cousins (who most likely are not the best candidates) to be their pilots pilots

1. Saudia Arabia
2. Kuwait
3. Egypt
4. Until very recently Pakistan
Another good question is how many countries had democracy until the US helped take it away?
The US has never cared whether or not a foreign country was dictatorship or not as long as they did what the US wanted.
Then take the case of Iraq. Can a country be considered a democracy just because it has an election, leaving aside the question of whether or not it is a disputed election, disputed not in the sense of the results but disputed in the sense that some factions believed the rules were biased against them from the beginning as in the case of Gerrymeandering. Also an election done the proper Continental way with proportional representation will produce much different result than winner take all districts.
Furthermore the American government also does things that the American people do not know about until many years later. How many things do they do that never comes to the light of day?
For example in January of 2007 Germany issued arrest warrants for a pack of CIA agents operating in Germany. The official reason was for the kidnapping of a German citizen. Shit Germany is supposed to be our ally. If we had evidence against a German citizen why could we have not asked the BKA (German FBI) to pick him up. I will tell you why. Because we were to embarrassed to ask the BKA because the person we kidnapped came upon some information through a friend that the CIA had a cell operating in Leipzig Germany who had the mission of altering the election results of the German Federal elections that would have occurred in Germany after the US had launched an attack on Iran which would have split the ruling coalition in Germany causing new elections and a sharp leftward in the Bundestag (Parliment) which was a side effect that the US MIC was not willing to pay. That poor German citizen had to be frightened to death to make sure that he would never utter a word about what he had figured out.

Furthermore although it is never publicly questioned in the US that the US is a democracy it is questioned by many in Europe, including many Ex-Pats.

Since there are exactly two SU-37’s in the entire world. They are NOT in production anywhere. So I can’t say that I see anyone having to worry about squadrons of the things in anyone’s hands.

Chiefy houston:

ywan… I think that age question is best directed to your man-child president who gave
$800 million to the Palestinian Authority.

Keep in mind, we could have had another eight F-22s for that price. Which, even if you think the F-22 is useless, it can’t possibly be as useless as giving nearly a billion dollars to a corrupt and incompetent Palestinian Authority.

A few things about the Su-37:

1) It’s not in production.

2) The export version would have a primitive avionics package compared to the Russian version, especially for “two-bit” dictators from Venezuela.

3) From a kinematic standpoint, it wouldn’t be a match against even an F-15 with the (V)2 AESA radar, let alone the (V)3 AESA radar that will be upgraded on majority of the remaining F-15 fleet. With this radar the Su-37 wouldn’t know it was being locked onto or tracked since the Radar Warning Receivers on the Su-37 wouldn’t trip. Also, the Su-37’s own radar would become useless since AESA radars have the ability to jam conventional radars. Should the Su-37 manage a missile shot (radar or IR), the AESA radar is powerful enough to focus it’s beam’s energy and function like a high-powered microwave… actually frying missile guidance electronics.

At the moment AESA capability is in it’s infancy in Russia and only a few select fighter aircraft actually have it or will have it, a capability that the US has had since 1999. Export versions would be less likely, and pricey.

The F-22’s APG-77 radar is a newer AESA radar compared to the first generation (V)2 radar, and has already demonstrated all the same capabilities listed above to a greater extent.

So what happens when an AESA equipped fighter runs up against someone with an ARM(R27P)Alamo?

Like conventional radar warning receivers, the R-27P’s seeker head won’t be able to detect AESA signatures thus not homing in on the source. It will require more than just a software upgrade, but hardware as well so at the moment it’s not much of a threat to AESA-equipped fighters.

Though, AESA-equipped fighters would still be able to jam and then fry the guidance systems onboard the missiles, rendering them harmless. The aircraft would only have to worry if the missile was fired in their blind spot from too close of a distance for them to react, which proper tactics would alleviate. For example in Combat Air Patrol missions with two fighters, they’d be facing in opposite directions to cover each other’s six o’clock positions. Datalinking allows fighters to share information about the battlespace, so as long as there are eyes facing in each direction, all datalinked parties will have a virtual 360-degree field of view. AWACS also possess datalinking capability, with an AESA upgrade in the near future.

This are state of the art technology. Russia and China has this technology already. It would be bad for our defenses if we dont have this F-22 and F-35.

Why do we have to go and ask facebook to get to our Military Com?


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