The Navy’s Fighter Gap?

The Navy’s Fighter Gap?

Is there a Navy strike-fighter shortfall? Arguably there is. Right now anyway. But that shortfall could shift to an excess, if, as we have reported, the QDR strategic review changes the force sizing construct from preparing to fight two major theater wars to instead preparing to battle a single peer competitor while simultaneously waging a slow burn irregular war along the lines of Iraq and Afghanistan.

At a discussion this week on the Navy’s “fighter gap” at the Center for National Policy in Washington, one of the defense world’s most knowledgeable sources on all things Navy, CRS’ Ron O’Rourke, tried to put a definitive number on that “gap.” From the Navy’s public statements, O’Rourke calculated the number at anywhere between 125 and 243 aircraft, although some in industry contend it’s 300 or more. The peak of this shortfall is projected to occur around 2015; the Navy contends a shortage of strike-fighters could reduce the number of available carriers from 11 to seven around that time.

Driving the shortfall is an aging F-18 Hornet fleet, the A through D models, and the buy rate of the naval version of the new F-35 JSF. The Navy is buying the larger and more capable F-18 E/F Super Hornet; it currently operates some 600 Hornets and Super Hornets and the Marines another 200 Hornets. The Navy planned to retire the older Hornets and replace them with the F-35; the Navy’s projected 2025 air wing calls for 20 JSF and 24 F-18 E/F. There is talk of extending the life of the older F-18 A through D models from 8,600 hours to 10,000 hours, but that SLEP may cost up to $26 million per aircraft, O’Rourke said, in which case lawmakers would choose to buy more E and F models.

Even with the A through D SLEP, and accelerating the F-35 buy, the Navy still projects a strike-fighter shortfall. However, if the QDR changes the force-sizing construct from two overlapping theater wars to a single theater war, then the whole idea of a shortfall will need to be recalculated. I asked O’Rourke what that change in strategy could mean for carrier numbers and he was, understandably, unwilling to go out on that limb. One thing is for certain, it would set up quite a fight between OSD and the Navy with both sides arguing the relative value of carriers in irregular wars, as a deterrent force, in maintaining forward presence/power projection and how many would be needed to battle China.

In calculating Navy strike-fighter numbers, O’Rourke said a couple of things bear keeping in mind. First, that to generate a 44 aircraft carrier strike wing actually requires between 60 and 70 aircraft. Second, any discussion of naval aviation must also include the issue of the affordability of the Navy’s shipbuilding plan. In the current and projected budgetary environments, that plan is suspect. Complicating all this further have been persistent reports from Hill sources that PA and E has done a comprehensive analysis that finds no need for any more carrier-borne F-18 fighters.

One person who says carrier numbers should be rethought is strategist Frank Hoffman, who argued in a recent CNAS paper that at an estimated $11 billion for the new Ford class carrier, large deck carriers are too costly, too oriented towards open-ocean fighting between battle fleets and air wings are too short ranged. The Navy should reduce the number of carriers to no more than 8 and should emphasize long range unmanned strike aircraft such as the N-UCAS and make more innovative use of the aviation-capable large deck amphibious ships for forward presence and power projection, Hoffman said.

The shift away from a two-theater war strategy influenced DOD’s decision on the F-22, according to testimony earlier this month by Marine Gen. James Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff. The potential impact such a change in strategy will have across the force is just beginning.

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What is the value of a carrier fleet in an irregular war? HMMMM let me think…, oh wait, even a 9 year old riding the short bus to school could tell you that. With us closing down more and more bases overseas, are we going to be giving our troops CAS with Hornets flying 15 hour missions with 5 midair refueling and 10 minutes of patrol time before they have to RTB? Laf. When is our NGB scheduled to be operational? Wait, what NGB? Yeah, now is the perfect time to reduce our carrier fleet — I’m sure China has plenty of lobbyists in Washington pushing for that.

You can make a stronger argument for carrier battle groups than you can for a certain Air Force fighter.

Replace fighters w/advanced UAVs (would make the SWO’s happy)?

Only half the Carrier Fleet is at Sea at any given time. So, how can we have a shortfall??? Further, I see little reason to keep Super Hornet Production going other than a small number of Growlers. As the future is clearly the F-35B/C and UCAV’s.

We need that QDR.

We wouldn’t be facing this problem if they’d decided to build more F-22s.

11? Oh, and then there are a couple of reserve carriers.

Rest of the world combined? 6 (4 of which are allies)

This 50 cents of every tax dollar HAS TO END.

The military needs to be placed in mothballs and the US return to the ideal of the “citizen soldier” and not the “soldier citizen”.

Q: Who is has the 2nd largest Navy in the world?

A: The US. We call it the Coast Guard.

Errata: 12, the rest of the world has 12. Apparently, somebody sold a few to Thailand, Brazil and India.

No other country has more than 2.

Good Morning Folks,

Naval aircraft are like women, they don’t age well. The years of the no fly zone, the 14 hour missions over Afghanistan, the effects of salt water from being at sea to long all take it’s toll. This is a problem that even Elizabeth Arden can’t cover up.

The F-35 is not going to be ready by mid decade, we all know this, so get real, if the U.S. wants to keep carriers even with the minimal air groups (of apox. 70 aircraft vs. 95) that are currently being deployed action has to be taken now.

To keep the carriers at sea in the next decade and beyond more F-18’s need to be bought, period. Its expensive to be sure, but the sooner its realized and planned for, the cheaper it will be. The longer we wait the more costs will go up.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Byron,

Couldn’t agree with you more my friend. The latest Blocks of the F-18E/F is a very capable aircraft.

For all of you others. Generally only a third of all surface ships can be deployed at any one time. 1/3 on deployment, 1/3 doing workups for deployment, and 1/3 in the yards/repair. That would give us a 4 carrier capability under normal circumstances with a surge of maybe a couple more.

Also remember what aircraft (and large ground force for that matter) were used to attack the Taliban and Al Qaeda after 9/11. I believe there were three carriers, B-52s, B-1s, and B-2s. No other airpower could travel that far. And the gator freighters brought in the jarheads.

There should never be a debate about whether carriers are useful or needed.

DC2

Dean,
50 cents of every dollar? When was the last time YOU looked at the % that the defense budget made up of the over-all national budget?

Dean,
The 2008 budget reflects a defense department percentage of roughly 19% which is less than the 24.6% for Health and Human Services and and the 22.4% for Social Security. Of those three, only defense is mentioned in the Constitution (Provide for the common defense…). It doesn’t say pay people unemployment or pay for their retirement.

Lets see, The F-35C is yet to do one trap or cat take-off and hasn’t even seen OPEVAL. Yet that is somehow a plan. A plan for the galactically stupid.

Super Hornet Block II can fill out the carrier deck for a low low price and have a lot of capability ( and two engine safety )

Refurbing a legacy Hornet to 10k hours is a fools errand. It isn’t as easy as it looks and each jet suffers a bit different.

Pogmusic — it does in the next line (“promote the general Welfare”). If you disagree with medical care for the poor/elderly (Medicare/Medicaid, not unemployment, are the bulk of HHS appropriations) and basic retirement as interpretations of “general welfare”, well, there are many people who disagree with unprovoked invasions and massive standing armies as part of “common defense”.

(Don’t bother arguing with me over your perception of my stance; I’m about as pro-Defense as they come. But your Constitutional argument is silly.)

Shrinking the carrier fleet is a terrible idea. Not sure what person would believe that a carrier has no role in an irregular war.

The ability to project power is always necessary, no matter what type of war. A carrier can get planes in the air and fully supported much faster than any other method.

A carrier isn’t all about sea power. It’s about all-theater power. It gets bombs on the ground, secures the skies, and controls the sea. I can’t imagine the Navy being hard-headed enough not to buy the planes needed (F-18s) to keep 70 planes per carrier.

I read through Frank Hoffman’s suggestions and was impressed. His opinions are balanced well between maintaining power and not breaking the bank.

Scot, do you realize how absurd that statement is? That’s like saying only 10% of our fighters are in the air at any given time, so we can reduce their numbers by 50%. Use some common sense.

Dean, you are obviously at a site you don’t belong. I’m not sure why anyone who believes our whole military should be mothballed would ever read a defense blog, hah.

Interesting how we are trying to re-fight THIS war and not looking to the future.

For some reason everyone has been convinced since Vietnam that high-intensity warfare is a thing of the past but in 1991 and 2003 thats exactly what we got.

While I think we should keep an open mind about new stratigies. We need to remember that it is far better to fight in someone elses country than in ones own. To do this you must project power. I would prefer to see smaller CVs in larger numbers than these giant floating targets but they do get the job done.

Jeff,

A carrier is vital to “irregular war” But it is a huge target. I would not make the assumption that “irregular” warfare is all that we will face. New threats can develop quickly but new systems take a LONG time.

Even in a regional standoff say a skermish w/ China over Tiwan imagine the political consequences of a missle hit on a CVN. Assuming it is only damaged and forced to retire they will have “defeated” the navy andthe rest of the CVNs get tied up at the dock out of fear of it happening again.

A better approach would be to look at a combination of smaller, simpler CVLs, Missles and long range bombers.

Having more options also makes the enemies job that much harder and maybe they won’t try anything at all.

With the CVNs every little pleb with an SSK is going to line up for a shot at a CVN.

barry ODR: PEACE IN OUR TIME

We need no stinking airplanes at all.. Now we can spend more $ on welfare for my acorn voters…

More money for Obamas universal health care plan, to cover the 20 million illegals.

And for those who think along the same lines as Ms. Anal rententive arse monkey poggy, better wake up.

To give you a sitrep.…we still have not found Osama Bin Laden. He has managed to gather most of his capability back from destruction thanks to our wonderful allies the Saudis, and the Chinese. WE currently have forces deployed in combat operations in the Phillipines, the horn of Africa, South America, along our border, and in central Asia(besides those in A-stan). Heck, we even have forces in Isreal manning ADA batteries. But, ol’ Liebermancrotchrocket poggy here wants to sell us out and make a quick buck or two so he can rest at night.…think about it.

Prediction — QDR will say exactly what Obama wants it to say so we can cut and don’t need anything but to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Nuclear Posture Review will agree we don’t need nukes anymore and let’s begin to dismantle the entire nuclear infrastructure. Caveat is that they will both talk tough but this will not signify anything just give political cover.

Obama is a Marxist and wants to tear down the country and the institutions that don’t support his ideals. Capitalism was first. Next step take apart the military and reduce America to non-superpower status.

The Democrats understand that if they can get everyone fighting over the spoils of government healthcare, welfare, social security and other subsidies that they will alway vote for the party promising the most goodies and that will always be the left. Don’t believe me there is archival information from the Presidential documents of FDR and LBJ that shows internal adminstration discussion that explicitly says “if we can give the voter these goodies they will vote for us forever”

And my two cents on the Constitution debate posted up the thread, PROVIDE is direct, PROMOTE is tangential and unspecific. Promote the General Welfare means allowing people the freedom to PROVIDE for THEMSELVES and not have government provide for them. Which means protection from external coersion by providing US citizens protection and recourse in a fair court system. If “promte” holds the same power as “provide” than the general welfare can mean gourmet food and Ferrari sports cars. You can ask for and get anything. I believe my general welfare is having a mansion on the beach somewhere.

Dean,
The uk currently has 3 active aircrat carriers, with 1 in reserve.
we are just starting to build and additional 2 carriers, both will be significantly larger than our exisiting ones.

in addition

America has 12 nimitz class carriers, and 12 smaller carriers, this is far more than they would need in any given situation.
most of the other nations who have carriers are also allies.
having such a dramatic number of both super carriers and regular carriers is a big reason why america is the super power it is today.
but it could easily drop a few of these and maintain a significant lead over every other country.
china has no working carriers, russia has one tired rustbucket, north korea has none etc etc.
american allies in europe have them which would be fighting side by side with america were the worst to happen and war broke out with a peer nation like russia or china.
there is having power, then there is overkill!!
i am big believer in carrier power, which is why i was so happy to hear we are updating the british fleet.
they are useful in all types of conflict, even in land locked areas, due to mid air refueling.
they can provide CAS in COIN operations aswell as strategic destruction of key targets in an conventional war.
but i do believe america could get make a smaller fleet, still having more than the rest of the world combined, and it would not be a problem for the defense of their country.

thats just my opinion.
Current serving british soldier, strong allie to america, and strong believer in carriers and their abilities.

here is a useful link for everyone on here, just to clarify a few points, a few chaps on here have no idea what they are talking about!! not meaning to be rude, just accurate

http://​www​.globalsecurity​.org/​m​i​l​i​t​a​r​y​/​w​o​r​l​d​/​c​a​r​r​i​e​r​s​.​htm

DRW,

You need to learn the difference between ‘provide’ & ‘promote’.

***

Gareth,

No the USN currently has just 10 carriers.

http://​www​.gonavy​.jp/​C​V​L​o​c​a​t​i​o​n​.​h​tml

CVN-65 USS Enterprise + 9 Nimitz class (the 10th Nimitz class, CVN-77 George H.W. Bush, was commissioned in January 2009 but not scheduled for her 1st operational deployment until early 2010 replacing the already retired USS Kitty Hawk).

The (2) LHAs & (8) LHDs are not carriers. They are Amphibious Assault Ships with only a very limited ability to operate even AV-8Bs.

http://​www​.gonavy​.jp/​C​V​L​o​c​a​t​i​o​n​.​h​tml

Think Bobbymike & Buddhaloveswhatever have unintentionally cast the central argument accurately.…the US must decide: Do we wish to be a 2nd rate regional power by allowing Obama and the American Marxists to destroy capitalism, “grace” us with European style socialism and eliminate our military ability to project power, influence/shape events and protect US interests throughout the world. OR will we remain a captitalist republic and retain our “superpower” capability to defend ourselves, maintain PAX AMERICANNA in Europe, protect the global economy and thwart mass aggression (e.g. the Nazis, Imperial Japan, the Soviet Union, DPRK, Iran). To suggest that the fundamental aggressive nature of man has changed in 2009 and the world will not longer face mass aggression is laughable.…we will see if Obama/Gates will use the QDR, as some suggest, to drawdown US power…but my fellow Americans made a choic in Nov ’08…now you may get change that you could not imagine.

Our Marxist president will call Iran, North Korea, Russia and Hamas to see what they think we should do. Then he will ask China to loan us more money so we can build some piper cubs to protect ourselves. Face it, this Marxist does not want America to have the capability to protect our country from an invasion from a Boy Scout Troop. He is selling the US out to his friends formerly known as “the enemy”. Within a year the Taliban could attack us and WIN. Thanks Traitor.

Let’s all analogize like our “intellectual” superior BuddhaLP. A soldier was walking his dog by a lake and saw BuddhaLP being held at gunpoint being robbed. BuddhaLP implored the soldier to help, he didn’t want to be hurt by this criminal. The soldier helped because he had volunterred to help puerile simpletons even if they loathed the existence of guys like him.

Don’t feed the trolls. Instead, email Military​.com and ask them to close comments and require everyone to post to a message board instead.

Geez, our government is Bi-Polar. First, they say, lets restart relations with Russia, then they do this.…

http://​www​.globalsecurity​.org/​m​i​l​i​t​a​r​y​/​l​i​b​r​a​r​y​/​n​e​w​s​/​2​0​0​9​/​0​7​/​m​i​l​-​0​9​0​7​2​4​-​a​f​p​s​0​4​.​htm

That is a great way to piss of Russia. I think it’s a good move, however. Some of you talk about the lack of “kickass” attitude America has lost lately…I don’t agree. The US government has always been two-faced. Do the usual talking points to other countries, then back-stab our enemies..And that article says it all.

BTW, if our country makes this statement, I guarantee the Missile Shield WILL go up in Poland…

Also, I just found out that the 2010 Defense Budget has been boosted to $680 Billion from the Senate. I don’t want a freakin argument, but that is a %4 increase from 2009…not bad if I say so myself.

And, Jesus H Christ, why don’t you people get over the F-22/35 crap..For the last freakin time, those planes WILL be obsolete by 2025. Maybe not the 35, but the (first day war) F-22 will be.. UCAV’s, anyone? The DoD will spend 5.4 Billion for UCAV’s this year alone! That’s more coin, then the construction of F-22’s at a decent production rate per year.Gates knows something we don’t, eh?

Gentlemen, manned fighters will be considered obsolete by America by 2025, maybe much earlier. Christ, does an UCAV need to sleep? Pass out pulling high G’s? Can re-fuel in air for many, many hours more then manned? And not to mention 10x better stealth! Just look at the B-2…no other bomber can touch it, because of no tail design…which, UCAV’s will have also.

I’m done arguing about the 22 and 35, it’s a lose-lose situation with some of you…

One more thing before I turn in.…cut the 2nd F-35 engine out of the budget Senate! Two engines mean less F-35’s over the short term. Before the X-47B lands on the Carrier next year, more F-35’s are better then more F-18’s.

Jason ran across some new ABM footage thought you might like to take a look(skunk team ftw)

http://​www​.youtube​.com/​w​a​t​c​h​?​v​=​i​-​d​t​j​6​I​3​WIA

All
Again, into the breach. Do away with the carriers, shut down Boeing Production lines for the F18 Super Hornet, change our Mil. into a Civilian ready force, AKA Minutemen, on and on.
Folks, We stand at the brink of multipule abyss’. NK, Iran, Afghanistan, Unstable Western China, Africa despots, all could, overnight, require mulitpule carriers, on site, around the globe. Ready with whatever we have up for strikes. It is so d… easy to armchair these concepts, of mission degrades, shortages of planes in the forseeable future.
Note the article authors’ response he got for his “Action Oriented Question” a simple shrug of the shoulders.
It is far better to be ready, loaded and capable than to have to go the arms locker and find it empty.
end
Semper FI

Just like I said in order to justify insanity every little problem has to be turned in to a potential big problem. Do Europeans worry about these NK, Iran, and other places? Hell no and Europeans are a hell of lot closer. Again this is just a perfect example of using any old excuse to go out and wage war to justify your pay check or your blood lust.

The aircraft carrier is a forward power projection tool, but vulnerable to enemy submarines. The new strategy is to divide the air power between big deck carriers and the gator navy. This is a good strategy to reduce the number of big deck carriers required to maintain the forward presence. The DOD is changing everything, so maybe the original Japanese idea of a submarine carrier will look good to them now.

I hate to tell you Dean, but the actual figure is less than 17 cents per tax dollar going to defense. In the 1980’s it dropped to a quarter and has been dropping ever since.

Now if you really want to discuss things that need changing, why don’t we start with the welfare state, the stimulas, the Waxman Energy bill passed by the House, and Healthcare reform. Compared to these things the defense budget is a drop in the bucket. And speaking of the above, where is the Constitutional authority for any of them? Perhaps you should read the Tenth Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Just because Congress does something does not make it right or Constitutional. And providing for the common defense is one of the stated perposes in the Constitution.

I’ve been reading the Navy’s Commentaries from you old salts, and even though I tend to post on the Army’s web page I have been suspended for posting threads due to my reference of the human anatomy with a sailor who requested if anyone would help him as he had suffered an injury from active duty.I would like to share with you old Salt’s for your patience with each other as you decribe the Human Anatomy in your commentaries as to the Naval policies towards it’s crew. If they do their jobs what they do in their quarter’s, how they talk,and how much they drink is their business as is their Liberty on Shore. Just don’t destroy to much private and public property when you do it !

12 or 11 CVBG’s would be the right fit for the QDR’s projected strategy of one major war and then an irregular conflict or two. Right now the navy is stretched to the max with it’s committments. When you look at a twelve carrier force you have to remember that three are deployed, three more are doing work ups, three to four either just got back from deployment or are in the yards, one is homeported in Japan and one is under construction. So at any one time we really only have 3 or 4 CVBG’s that can immediately react to a threat. Unless someone wants to reduce our oversees committments the reality is that the force needed to fight future wars is the force we have right now.

PS… I have a few diecast planes and model’s of planes and the Navy’s F-18 Hornet is one of them,and I have a picture of ” Pappy,“Boyington of the Marines Black Sheep Squadron from WWII. I would like to point out that Admiral Nimit’s has a family hotel in Texas which needs some help to preserve with his Navy heritage along with some Marine generals who need help as well. So instead of spending your next Lberty pay getting drunk at some Shanghai bar why not pass the hat for some of those old timmer’s who fought for US in past war’s like WWII who like the rest are suffering from the same health care plans we all are facing right now as well !

The USN should really get going on the F/A-XX program that Boeing has been showcasing concepts for the last couple of months.

I don’t believe the Navy should try to maintain any more than 11 carrier battle groups, considering the current problems the Navy faces. Following the failure of the DDG-1000 program, the Navy needs to get plans for new destroyers and cruisers on track again.

american needs more than anything is the next f-16 so our nato friend ect have a new america built plane (TO BUY) for america economy and clout,i’ve heard alot of talk of nato and other counties retiring there f15/f16 and u.s can’t sale the f22 and the f-35 is’nt what they need? and if it was’nt for the pressured put on gates to turn down the traders north grumman/a330 deal that would have send french tanker planes to the usaf.save boeing ass for 16months maybe? that was low life of north grumman! a american builder should get the right to build those planes no matter what! it seems that america plane builder& goverment have really fell asleep at the wheel and boeing needs to be puting something out fast

Frank Hoffman is a retired Marine Reserve COL and prolific writer on Marine Corps subjects. With regard to aircraft carriers, he has an agenda. The article he wrote that was published by Michelle Flournouy’s think tank (before she was picked to be OSD Policy) is a trial balloon for the Marine Corps party line. This proposal supports limiting the number of Nimitz-type aircraft carriers with catapults and arresting gear because the Department of the Navy doesn’t have enough money to buy those and the larger big-deck amphib the Marine Corps wants to be able to operate the MV-22 and F-35B (STOVL JSF). The proposed LHA® may not be big enough.

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