‘Real’ Army Hails FCS Cut

‘Real’ Army Hails FCS Cut

It’s not often that internal service debates about acquisition programs get aired in public, but the struggle to find the right path forward after the wrenching decision to kill the Manned Ground Vehicle has clearly galvanized Army officers in a fashion not seen in some time.

The DoD Buzz story, “Army Planning for Last War” elicited several comments by persons with .mil email addresses who included the time-honored “views expressed are personal…” disclaimer, and there were half a dozen posts to very recent FCS stories that appear to have come from serving officers. We also got several comments posted to the story, “It’s Official FCS Cancelled.

Perhaps the most succinct — and telling — statement put the Army’s quandary in terms Defense Secretary Robert Gates would appreciate. The major argues the service faces a zero-sum game forcing it to choose between modernizing existing equipment or to buy FCS. “The current combat systems are showing age and worn out because they are experiencing higher than expected or programmed usage rate. Modernizing these legacy systems with new or better engines, armor, and weapons will allow the Army to maintain its current capabilities in a very cost effective manner,” wrote Maj. Jay Cha. “In a resource-constrained environment with competing priorities, it is unthinkable to continue to fund the programs with delays that may be headed the wrong direction, while the proven current combat systems are falling apart due to age and wear.“
The major’s conclusion: “Unless the defense budget is increased in order to fund the FCS program, the proven current combat systems need to be utilized as long as they are capable of meeting the needs of the Army.”


So much for a rejiggered combat system that might look something like FCS, with new vehicles capable of traveling together at the same speeds and having a highly common logistics tail.

Maj. Sebastian Edwards writes that systems such as FCS aren’t needed because we will face hybrid wars. “If we want to know what future threats will look like, we need look no further than the past and present. The Gulf War excluded, the conflicts involving the U.S. military since the Vietnam war include actions in Grenada, Somalia, Haiti, Kosovo, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and others. Notably missing from this list are the types on conventional force– on-force wars that the FCS and F-22 systems were built based on,” Edwards writes. On top of that, he thinks that the US will face many more such battles as we have taken on in Iraq and Afghanistan: “Globalization, resource scarcity, proliferation of weapons of mass effect, and the youth bulge and urbanization in underdeveloped states all point to future conflicts sparked by terrorism, failed regimes, or rogue states.”

Also, Edwards argues that Gates was right not only to kill the MGV but is right to tackle the F-22. He says Gates “desires to go back to the drawing board to re-analyze future threats because acquisition decisions made 30 years ago are irrelevant today, yet the [acquisition] process lacks the flexibility to quickly adapt and modify those decisions. For example, in scrapping the FCS vehicle, Sec Gates stated that the Army will design a new vehicle from scratch after careful research and analysis.”

Finally, Maj. Aaron Gorrie praises the Manned Ground Vehicle cut because he believes this will help increase the service’s focus on the FCS network. “If there is one portion of FCS that the Army must do correctly, it is the proper construction and implementation of the network,” Gorrie writes. In addition, he urges the Army to ensure that both the service and the companies involved train maintainers: “I hope that those responsible for fielding and implementing these systems understand that not only do the individual operators need to be trained on these systems/technologies, but the leaders, planners, and most importantly the maintainers of these systems must understand all facets in order to implement and use them to there fullest capacity.“
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It’s interesting that everyone who posted, with the exception of one Army captain, is a major. And they all stand with Gates, his vision for the near future and his analysis of what is needed. Some might read this and conclude that the military put these men up to the postings. But almost 15 years of covering the military leads me to doubt it because the US Army and the civilian defense leadership are not that effective at manipulation at this level. Let’s hope that the level of passion and commitment that must drive an officer to take such dramatic public stands is a part of the new Army, the force battered and rebuilt through the struggle and sacrifice of close to a decade of seemingly unending combat.

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Also found it interesting/encouraging that so many were posting.

However, I’m sure horse cavalrymen thought their method of warfare was working and we should never invest in modernization and new ideas.

Fortunately and unfortunately, branch perspective brings a lot of slant to the argument. It is fortunate insofar as it brings focused expertise. It is unfortunate insofar as it breeds reduced combined arms thinking and a tendency to branch parochialism. Even within branches like Infantry, there is a light, mech, and Stryker perspective. In aviation, there is attack/reconnaissnace vs. lift.

If you are an armor officer and cavalryman, you think the M1A2 and tank urban survival kit are the cat’s meow. Thing like:

*torn up roads
*bridges and soft terrain you can’t cross
*lots of heavy equipment transport flatbeds
*lots of vulnerable logisticians hauling your gas around
*limited air deployability

are not foremost in your mind.

When you go that big, options to fight full spectrum conflict are reduced. There are simply too many areas where big tanks cannot go and stay without imposing a huge logistics burden in remote areas.

When you stop, you keep running that big old turbine to power your radios and sensors…and if we integrate more network, sensors, and displays into future tanks, they will need more electricity.

If you are in a Stryker unit, you may already weigh around 50,000 lbs with armor upgrades and are still not very well protected and have little firepower. But at least you have proven the advantages of on board displays and technologies and a common vehicle family. You excel in urban environments and rapid road marches without rubbling their roads…but also are vulnerable to IED and ATGM/cannon/main gun attack.

80,000 lbs. may be an optimal middle ground that protects mounted troops better and has more firepower than a Stryker while adapting its greater infantry and network/sensor emphasis. But substitute fewer future vehicles with good protection for greater numbers of vehicles that no longer face massed armored opponents.

Major Cha’s arguments are very sound. But you don’t see the Air Force and Navy resting on their laurels. They constantly modernize and seek new ways of fighting…often too excess. The Marines are pushing the envelope with the V-22 and EFV…also often too excess. But in the long run they will make their new concepts work very effectively (except maybe EFV).

Only the Army is bearing the brunt of 12–15 month repeated tours in combat that tear up equipment and reinforce branch feelings that their stuff works as is. As a result, when presented with the options to: 1) increase force structure to reduce deployments, 2) reset current equipment,or 3) modernize, it’s pretty obvious which of the three will be lowest in priority to iron majors who have been there and done that repeatedly.

Other joint services have not faced such a choice. They have been provided sufficient funding to modernize, endure shorter deployments due to adequate force structure, AND modernize.

The risk is that if what we have is deemed as “good enough” when forward deployed in Germany and South Korea…it will not be good enough when the trip to the border has a multi-month prelude on a ship. That long trip, especially in the Pacific, is not much of a deterrent, either.

The risk is that when $13/gallon fuel becomes $30/gallon fuel, those big AND too numerous armored vehicles will become less affordable for the long war, and logisticians will still be getting blown up. The risk is we cannot realistically put a battalion task force on the ground as an early deterrent to secure ports/airheads, and still sustain it with fuel.

Army aviation Hellfires and Infantry Javelins would tear up an M1A2 and Bradley through top attack…and we have had those for years. When the hybrid threat develops similar ground-based capabilities and smart indirect fire munitions, we risk that our “good enough” force…won’t be.

Good debate though. If it was more clear how risky FCS technology is, it would probably change the relative merits of the arguments. I’m not convinced that FCS was there yet in lots of area. Maybe a delay in fielding the future armored forces does make sensor to let the tech mature.

The risk, however, is that the monies to make the tech mature will go away with a strictly reset approach. This could leave the Army with lots of old equipment that is modern, but completely irrelevant to future conflicts.

Mr. Gates has everyone skaking in their boots , with his strong arm tactics. Bolstered by his latest bully beat downs (F-22 situation) he is only going to be bigger problem to deal with. There are going to be less and less people in very important positions willing to oppose Mr. gates , which also crushes free thinking and fresh ideas. –very sad indeed!!!!

Ribby, you’ve got it backwards. It’s the military industrial complex and big war is the only kind of war that Gates is trying to moderate.

He’s not even espousing that conventional wars should not be something we prepare for. His point is that there needs to be more accountability in programs that get delayed and don’t show a quick adaptability to trends. Kind of like an open platform that accepts modular changes in faster increments so that the “70% solution” is given now to the soldiers with improvements as the tech matures.

atacns: The problem is that programs might not show adaptability to trends, but that’s because the customer wants everything tested and analyzed to a fare-thee-well, and with 100% margin to boot. If you aren’t twice as good as the outside edge of the on-paper spec, then the customer calls it a failure…

Good Morning Colin,

Gee now that its over the uniforms are coming out and saying we were with Sec. Gates all the way. That’s pure Bull Sh**.

The two weekend when this issue was debated over on defense tech the only two who posted were Cole and myself. My friend Cole is still beating a dead horse, it’s over Cole, I’ve moved on to other issues.

Since that debate we have heard from the Russians who had agreed to scrap their 22,000 reserve tanks, mostly T-36–85, T-54, T-55’s, they won’t be going onto the international arms market and are going to retire their current tank force of 6500 T-80’s in some variant or another for a force of 2,500 Hybrid tanks that will T-72 hulls and T-90 turrets. The T-95 is still in development but is not expected to be ready for fielding until the end of the next decade.

Meanwhile the Chinese have also stated that they will reduce their tank forces of 6,000 to 2,000 of the Type 99 now in production.

Meanwhile the U.S. has an active and reserve force of 7,500 M1A1’s that are being modernized.

These actions by Russia and China bring into serious question what size the American armor forces should be. Clearly the sizes of the Russian and Chinese tank force would make any serious ground war outside of countries that the border or each other very unlikely using only existing forces.

The uniform desk commander types still look out the window at the weather vain to see which way the wind is blowing. The winds along with “…the times they are a changin’ “.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Big systems development does not work. Big contractors, as we have seen, are self-interested and inefficient. The Army itself is incapable of managing new systems work, no matter how much delegate to others. So, let’s think broadly and deeply, but act in bite-sized chunks–save money, and minimize the inevitable problems with rapacious contractors and Congresspeople who think military spending is just a jobs program. Rather, it is our way to stay alive and lethal.

DensityDuck,

I think Gates is aware of the issue you raise and it’s partly why he thinks highly of the MRAP program. Partly due to its tactical success, but more because of its strategic success as a model for quick acquisition. Granted an armored truck is easier to put out than a tank that is made to take a hit from tank projectiles, but the point is there was an agility in the program and the program managers in which I believe he wants disseminated throughout the Pentagon’s acquisition corps.

‘the gulf war excluded’.…..

How conveinent. Would OIF been the war it was without big army and huge air forces crushing sadams armored forces?

Come on. Gates has a zero sum game thanks to Obama and he is gutting the tech for boots. Nice little constabulary force that is the Clinton era meals on wheels all over again.

Obama Demands $60 Billion in Savings From Military Fighting Two Wars
This is the same Barack Obama who asked the entire federal government to come up with $100 million in savings over the next year and couldn’t deliver on deadline. Yet the military, actively engaged in two hot wars and fighting a global war on terror, or counterinsurgency, or contingency operation, or whatever the euphemism of the day is, will be asked to cut six hundred times as much in order to “pay for new priorities to be set by the Defense secretary, a top Pentagon official said Tuesday,” according to the latest report from CQ’s Josh Rogin:
The order from Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates is based on an assumption that there will be no real growth in defense budgets over the next five years, a radical departure for a department whose budgets have increased more than 80 percent since 2001.…
One of the driving factors so far in the evaluation is the prospect that defense budgets largely will be static in fiscal 2011 through fiscal 2015, said David Ochmanek, deputy assistant secretary of defense for force transformation and resources.
The military services must “find offsets” to make room for the new capabilities that Gates wants to add or expand, he said. “They’re now busily looking for those billpayers,” said Ochmanek. “That’s how the zero growth assumption manifests itself.”
Zero growth for our troops. Zero growth for the defense of our country. And all the while, ballooning deficits to pay for health care, stimulus spending, car companies, and a $20 million dollar vacation home on Martha’s Vineyard. Republicans are busy fending off ObamaCare (and having some success), but I suspect that when the dust settles on all Obama’s domestic initiatives, and assuming there is at least some marginal economic recovery over the next 18 months, this gutting of our nation’s military may well be the most fertile ground for Republicans in the midterm election — and in 2012.

From the weekly standard blog

The FCS vehicles were too light. Back issues of ARMOR magazine bemoaned the 30 ton vehicles.

Yes, the M-1 is gobsmacklingly heavy. I got it. But with IED’s and even small nations able to buy tandem warhead RPG’s, something has to be done.

The armored gun system was canceled during the Clinton years to pay for that misadventure in Bosnia. It needs to be brought back.

The M-113 or son-of-FCS like vehicle needs to replace some of the Strykers (light armor) and MRAPs (too heavy).

Divorce the systems from the vehicles. The network needs to move from vehicle to vehicle. Don’t buy a new tank just because you came out with a new radio or computer.

That’s like buying a new kitchen because your souse just came back from the grocery store.

heavy brigades 30ton vehicle scalable to 40 tons w/ additional armour (similar to german puma). add in second heavier chassis for mbt/howitzer recker. this is top priority

stryker brigades are relatively new vehicles, when the heavy brigade vehicles are well under production start working on stryker replacement (similar to patrica amv/SEP/boxer) 20 ton scalable to 30 tons.

light brigades get jltv/m-atv/mrap or whatever vehicle situation dictates or no vehicles if that’s requirement.

IEDS will be taken into account in design for all vehicles as they are expected to be encountered at some point in time during conflict.

acquire limited numbers of air assault vehicles similar to weasel/weasel 2

Iraq has taught us that vehicles must be heavier and better protected not “lighter and more in touch with their feelings” at some point in time you will take hits active protection/era should be a supplement not replacement for armour.

restructuring the military as a coin centric force is the same thing as trying to only fight the fulda gap. the capability to do both is required conventional war often precedes a coin environment.

Many good points from all (and still hoping to hear from active/reserve component Army).

Especially liked:

*Byron’s point about reduced numbers of tanks worldwide and the numbers of M1AXs we already have, many of which are up to task for many years to come

*Dow’s point that not one, but two recent gulf wars included heavy armor with Iran potentially a third (if Hezbollah uses a nuke somewhere), and Strykers going to Afghanistan

*Chockblock’s point that you don’t buy a new tank because you have a new network/processor

*Daniel’s point “restructuring the military as a coin centric force is the same thing as trying to only fight the fulda gap. the capability to do both is required conventional war often precedes a coin environment.”

Bryon believes we don’t need heavy armor at all which is pretty open-minded considering he is a former cavalry guy. But the trend of putting armor on nearly everything in theater, must be considered. If we must have heavy vehicles, can we get by with fewer of them?

Instead 5 Infantry carriers per platoon and 16 in an Infantry company, maybe 3 ICV (carrying 15 troops and a joint program with Marines) per platoon and 10 per company would suffice. Same for tanks: 3/10. Then M-ATVs or MRAPs can fill out the platoons to provide COIN capacity and logistics self-sufficiency.

Next, perhaps you recognize that you need fewer tanks…period. The combined arms battalion (CAB) idea is essential. However, a perfect balance of 2 tank and 2 infantry companies is already outdated given the threat. A permanent shift to 2 infantry companies and 1 tank company would reflect the greater need for infantry in urban conflicts and complex terrain where the enemy will hide.

Add a recon troop to the CAB to have 2 armor and 2 infantry companies so it can be commanded by armor or infantry officers. If you adapt such a structure of less heavy armor per platoon and one less company per battalion, you reduce heavy armor per battalion from around 62–70, down to 35 (recon troop half heavy and half M-ATV) with M-ATV/MRAP filling out the rest.

Flag officers are talking about smaller, more self-sufficient units. Believe this exemplifies such a structure and integrates Secretary Gates desire to integrate the armored trucks into Army-wide force structure. It has the added benefit of:

*26 future Infantry/Scout carriers (80,000 lbs) being transported by 13 C-17s
*10 Abrams deploying in 10 C-17s

That 23 C-17 total would be supplanted by another 10–20 C-17s carrying heavy C2 vehicles and howitzers (and NLOS-Launch system), M-ATV ambulances, mortars, LRAS3 scout sensors, unmanned aircraft/ground vehicles, and HEMTT LHS PLS trucks. Move this kind of small battalion to multiple noncontiguous points of unopposed entry, and resupply by air until sea deployed remaining forces arrive.

Such smaller heavy force task forces could air deploy to the east side of Taiwan or western Ukraine for deterrence purposes at the first sign of a build-up. The M-ATV and reduced heavy armor structure would air deploy to places like Afghanistan for counterinsurgency and enhanced clear/hold to protect the build phase.

What I find interesting is the disposition of the vehicle assets (both tracked and wheeled) that are in-country Iraq and Afghanistan. The logistics of returning and refurbishing these vehicles are so prohibitively expensive that it is almost a cliche to say that we will abandon them to the Iraquis for their own self defense. This now leaves the Army with the conundrum of upgrading our own diminished inventory or sell them off in Foreign Military Sales, FMS, and then get on with procuring an entirely new generation of vehicles whether FCS or some variant. My guess is we will find reasons to abandon the old and procure the new.

What’s missing from all this “analysis” is opportunity cost. High tech = high risk and often highly unreliable.

Thanks for another phony argument of “if we don’t get FCS we won’t be able to win wars” vs. “fix the bloated and expensive cold war platforms” crowd. They’re both bad ideas, they’re both EXTREMELY expensive.

Most of the “FCS” system would be competely useless in Afghanistan (due to mountains and roadside bombs) OR Iraq (urban, close quarters fighting). While there are no doubt aspects of the FCS system that warrent investigation & funding, no one is asking WHAT ELSE COULD WE HAVE DONE WITH THOSE BILLIONS.

The cold war stuff was great against mechanized rifle regiments, but awful and over-engineered against dismounted insurgents.

Why not take just a fraction of that money and invest it in small arms. How about a rifle family that is actually lethal (6.8mm), and doesn’t jam in every climate but a lab. How about lightweight medium range anti-personnel weapons?? We could revolutionize the Army for a billion or so and it would have a dramatic effect on day to day operations in all theaters, and in all hybrid/conventtional/etc wars future or present.

One of the most challenging aspects of this discussion is our (in)ability to accurately predict future threats. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US is able to foresee the future; we don’t have crystal balls. We can only make assessments based upon current and past information. This is exactly why throughout our history we have seemingly fallen into the trap of always fighting our last war. Even pennst98 is caught up in this phenomenon when he states that “cold war stuff” is over-engineered and awful versus insurgents. Isn’t this particular line of reasoning leading to a continuation of the “fighting our last war” syndrome. Who says or even knows that all future conflicts will be dealing with insurgencies. We must plan for and equip a military that will potentially be involved in conflicts to the end of this century, not to the end of the decade. In a time of lean budgets and harsh economic realities, the military is required to also do its part while not sacrificing the security of our Nation.

Blackhorse (Allons!)
Let me be clear, I don’t mean to cast aspersions on that “cold war stuff.” Some of it was brilliant in the context of how, when and why it was developed. I’m sure you recall that the operational realities of the Fulda Gap and numerical superiority of the enemy that pushed designers to produce the arsenal most of us are familiar with. The A-10 & Apache (anti-tank/vehicle nightmares), the M1 Abrams as MBT designed to outmaneuver and accurately decimate its former rivals, and the M2 (the $5,664,100,000 M113 with a turret and go fast stripes) to help the infantry keep up with the incredible speed of the M1. Each had its role, each was designed to meet a clear (and very real) threat that we faced.

You are absolutely correct when you say that we cannot know the future. I only counter that what we can see with absolute clarity is the operational realities of Today. Where is that equipment? Soldiers had to turn to their families and friends for Body armor as late as 2006. The MRAP was only begrudgingly brought forth to appease a group of Senators who saw a political opportunity to seize on public outrage. How they somehow found time away from cheating on their wives, visiting airport stalls and taking bribes to attend to actual oversight …..I’ll never know.

All I meant to say was that we’re not Killing FCS; The 18 systems: +network + soldier+ a little luck + fairy dust +kitchen sink + fraud +waste +abuse amalgamation of Star Trek fantasies; we’re funding a war. And given that funding isn’t infinite we have to view the opportunity cost of spending money on things that we ARGUE will work versus things we KNOW will work.

Good Afternoon Cole,

You are correct in your interpretation of my thinking on armor Cole. Like the armored battleship or battle cruiser the main battle tank is a relic. The M1 Abrams at about 63 tons is the outside limit of how big a tank can be and still be of value in battle and the 120mm canon is still the state of the art in tank gunnery. Unfortunately both have been defeated in the field by cheap low tech weapons.

The FCS if anything was several steps backwards in armored protection and fire power. If avoiding casualties is a priority in the future then the only solution is unmanned vehicles, the enemy will have weapons that will destroy any armor we put in the field. On the subject of APC’s a reasonable protection of up to 12.5mm but relaying on speed and the vehicles own fire power.

The Russians: I was involved in a discussion a while back on the future of the Russian threat and if you are a Russian things aren’t looking good. Current Russian population is about 140 million, with out the use of tactical nuclear weapons it is unlikely right now that Russian could defend its current borders. In 2025 the population projection is 128 million and by 2050 it os 109 million.

Russia by getting ride of it 22K tanks is not an act of good will but the realization that it couldn’t even man those tanks if it wanted to.

The likelyhood that the U.S. with a projected population by 2050 of 450 million, will at some time have to go and support Russia against a conflict on it’s border.

We are in a new century that requires new answers to new problems. The FCS and the 20th. Century model of an armored force is just not in that equation any more.

By the way Cole was that you byline in the WSJ last week?

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

PennSt98 said: “What’s missing from all this “analysis” is opportunity cost. High tech = high risk and often highly unreliable.“
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reply: Magically, when you answer your cell phone…it works. Why isn’t there a military version? When you buy an I-Nano, it works and you have enormous computing power…why can’t something that small help a dismounted Soldier?

Call me an idealist, but when I recall the technology of my 1979 RX-7 with 100 hp and lousy gas mileage (M1 era) to my 2005 RX-8 with a backseat, 2.4 times more power and better mileage from nearly the same engine with 500 more pounds…I gotta think, give engineers time and money and they can work reliable miracles.
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pennst98: “Thanks for another phony argument of “if we don’t get FCS we won’t be able to win wars” vs. “fix the bloated and expensive cold war platforms” crowd. They’re both bad ideas, they’re both EXTREMELY expensive.“
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reply: Win wars? Let’s start by deterring wars by getting there before they start. Several months of Cold War equipment sea deployment does not deter Russian from invading Georgia/Ukraine/Azerbaijan or PRC from invading Taiwan. A war deterred = ZERO casualties and lots of money saved by avoiding the “long war” and rebuilding all the friendly bombing damage while under fire.

Wouldn’t want to be the poor Marine on a small carrier being targeted by a diesel-electric sub at the same time a barrage of TBM are en route to Kadena/Guam and several big carriers in the Pacific AO.

War is expensive. But the risk of even limited MAD or terrorist nuclear attack is more expensive in lives and infrastructure. If Iran stops oil flow through the Straits of Hormuz or blows up Saudi oil infrastructure, that is more expensive too.
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pennst98:“Most of the “FCS” system would be competely useless in Afghanistan (due to mountains and roadside bombs) OR Iraq (urban, close quarters fighting). While there are no doubt aspects of the FCS system that warrent investigation & funding, no one is asking WHAT ELSE COULD WE HAVE DONE WITH THOSE BILLIONS.“
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reply: FCS spin outs are going to infantry BCTs. Remember when 9 Americans died in a hasty coalition FOB on a mountaintop in northeast Afghanistan when attacked by upwards of 200 Taliban? Most deaths were in a forward Observation Post (OP). If that OP had a small unmanned ground vehicle and unattended sensors as mechanical OPs to their front, I would advocate that most of those Soldiers would still be alive.

NLOS-Launch System could have been 40 kms away pouring round-after-round at the Taliban with laser designation from Class I and IV UAS and COLTs. Inbound Apache Quick Reaction Force helicopters would have seen video in the cockpit from the UAS to help identify locations of good and bad guys prior to AH-64 arrival on station.

Roadside bombs? Google ASTAMIDS aboard Class IV UAS and understand that a unmanned ground vehicles will be finding mines/IEDs as well. What happens to Soldiers inside a up-armored HMMWV, Stryker, Bradley or M1A1 when a big IED goes off underneath? What happens to dismounts who have to walk everywhere and get so tired that they miss the trip wire or signs of an IED?

Suggest better uses of billions. More billions for F-22s not supporting current or most realistic future conflicts more than briefly? $120 billion for 500 tankers because the F-22s/F-35s lack endurance that stealthy UAS would have?

More $14 Billion carriers when we already have 10 times more than any potential foe? More $2 billion Virginia class subs when the Russian subs are rusting away and unmanned undersea and surface vessels would suffice when assisted by littoral combat ships?

More V-22s that move only light troops or small vehicles and EFVs that must travel for hours over water to stand-off from shore-to-ship missiles…and then get blown up by IED or 30mm cannon fire?

Or are you suggesting free healthcare for folks who don’t work or are in the U.S. illegally?
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pennst98:“The cold war stuff was great against mechanized rifle regiments, but awful and over-engineered against dismounted insurgents.

Why not take just a fraction of that money and invest it in small arms. How about a rifle family that is actually lethal (6.8mm), and doesn’t jam in every climate but a lab. How about lightweight medium range anti-personnel weapons?? We could revolutionize the Army for a billion or so and it would have a dramatic effect on day to day operations in all theaters, and in all hybrid/conventtional/etc wars future or present.
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reply: Good points. But how much heavier is the rifle firing the 6.8mm round? How much heavier is the ammo itself? How much heavier is the “other” body armor and will it hold up to the elements? Are Soldiers actually finding short range targets to shoot at in Afghanistan or is the enemy using long range disruptive/harassing fires to get us to drive into an IED or dive into a ditch with an anti-personnel mine? XM-25? XM307?

Don’t know those answers but suspect the Infantry Center is not sitting on their hands and the answers aren’t as clear cut or cheap as you believe.

None of these are an alternative to combat vehicles with:

* armor and active protection against: artillery/cannon/ATGM/IED/mines/top attack/main gun/small nukes/chem/bio/radiological
* mobility in urban, semi-complex, and soft terrain and over non-interstate-quality bridges without using as many low boy HETS
* advanced sensors and access to full motion video, and other ISR
* advanced displays depicting friendly and enemy locations and other relevant information
* communication connectivity, voice/text/video processing, dissemination and receipt
* greater firepower than 7.62mm and .50 cal
* noise stealth and less damaging to roads band tracks
* exportable power
* reliability enhanced by common parts and better prognostics, common tools
* better fuel economy to save logistician lives, reduce fuel throughput requirements, and preclude tactical pauses, and…
* better air and sea deployability to deter war and keep a stateside Army still relevant as it moves to CONUS from prior forward deployed bases

Good Evening Folks,

The notion of an exchange of nuclear weapons between Russia and China is rather remote. First of all look at the geography along their border, one thing jumps out and that is a lack of targets that would have any significant economic, cultural or military value.

The weapon of choice would be the Cruise Missile, the MRBM and the SRBM all with ranges in the 3500Km. area. That would put major cities out of range. As for using ICBM’s, neither side has enough operational missiles and warheads to do much real damage to the other side. There is no indication at this time that either side is willing to increase the number of ICBM’s and/or nuclear warheads of them.

If China has an interest in the area it is with India and current Chines defensives in the south western part of China indicated this concern. The 2nd. Artillery Corps has moved it’s operational HQ from the east cost to this area.

Russia’s likely problem will come from an Islamic Republic that sees a declining Russia as an opportunity for territorial or ethnic expansion. The reason the U.S. would chose to become involved in such a conflict would be to stop the uses of nuclear weapons by the Russians. It must be assumed that as Russia loses population it will become more concerned about protecting its territory.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

This is a high dollar chat room.

pennst98: Allons right back at you!
I agree with your posting. You also brought up a very good and germane point when you stated, “Each had its role, each was designed to meet a clear (and very real) threat that we faced.”
This reflects the THREAT based acquisition that was happening at the time. The FCS represented a deviation from that and was a “capabilities” based acquisition. The issue is (was) that the “capabilities” we needed in the future were in the mind’s eye of a few individuals. Those individuals may very well be wrong about what capabilities we need, and it is entirely possible they gave little to no consideration regarding future and potential threats.
FCS , as a program, was started prior to OIF. Since then, history has demonstrated that the initial vision of FCS and its “capabilities” was most likely faulty and not even suited to the task of dealing with our current conflict.
Perhaps it is time to discard the notion of a purely “capabilities” based acquisition (perhaps we already have?) and return to a threat based model that involves considerably more analysis of future conflict and threats and input from more than a few individuals in high levels of leadership.

Thanks for all the comments, I like where this is going.

Blackhorse — point taken, I think my ire is more with the how long it has taken to come to this conclusion, and what I perceive as the over reaction to the FCS cancellation

Cole — While I disagree with aspects of what you’re saying.…I’m more against the FCS construct than I am some of its piece components. The NLOS-LS is a FANTASTIC concept regardless of what fight we’re in. I also don’t disagree with that other piece components couldn’t be useful in today’s fight. (Mule, Unattended ground sensors, etc…)

Final thought to everyone……I just wanted to point out that arguing over we want or could use Unobtanium if we would just fund it / develop it enough often distracts us from the “What can I bring to the fight now” discussion that all too often never occurs in the Pentagon. What is worse, arguing over whether or not we want a real time global full spectrum interoperable hip-bone-connects-to-the-shin-bone network distracts military officials and developers from working on easily solved real-time capabilities to meet TODAY’s threats, in today’s operational environments.
Should we research and fund the network and other concepts brought forth in the FCS construct? Absolutely! But throwing billions at solving dozens of nice-ta-have “capability gaps” when we have dozens of immediate operational needs is irresponsible.

- — Though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

As I read some of these post I say one thing, I am sure glad I had none of you as my leaders, some of you guys would get a lot of people killed. Gates did the right thing to kill this worthless program, Uncle Sam spent a lot of tax dollars on things that never came to fruition, thank Don Rummie for that. Using a lot big words mean nothing to a soldier in the field, they only want to know if the equipment they have will protect them and get the job done, period. You see, that was part of the problem, they forgot about the soldiers in the field and focused on making money for their buddies. The bottom line is this, this FSC is crap and like most soldiers said, it’s not needed. Sec Gates is doing the right thing by letting the Army design it’s next combat vehicle, who would know better? Thank god for TACOM, where have you guys been for the last eight years?

The views expressed here are my personal views and do not reflect those of the U.S. Army. As an active duty Army officer who commanded a mechanized company team in Baghdad, I strongly believe that the HBCT, equipped with the M-1 and M-2, is a highly effective organization that can function well throughout the full spectrum environment. Without a doubt, the M-1 and M-2 performed brilliantly in Iraq. However, the Army requires a new, common family of vehicles to replace the M-1 and M-2, which were initially designed in the early 1970s. That being said, the window of opportunity to modernize is narrowing.
With regard to the discussion on the Stryker, it is a superb vehicle, but it was also developed as an interim solution for the Objective Force, which the Army renamed as the Future Combat System. While the Stryker has performed extremely well in combat, it is not the Army’s long term solution. It met an immediate need to fill the medium force capability gap. It may inadvertently remain in that role because of its weight and transportability because no one fully anticipated the IED threat.
I strongly disagree with the notion that the tank is a relic. The M-1 has proven its value during the initial 2003 invasion of Iraq and on the streets of Baghdad and Fallujah. Furthermore, the Israeli’s 2006 conflict in southern Lebanon also highlighted the need for an armored vehicle, the Merkava in their case. Anticipating the future pattern of conflict is a nearly task, but it appears that the Army will continue to deploy to austere environments against a hybrid threat.
That brings me back to the cancellation for the Manned Ground Vehicle program. Despite the cancellation of the MGV, the requirement for a common family of combat vehicles still exists. The Army is clearly moving towards the FCS network and the MGV played a significant role in supporting that network, particularly in terms of power generation. Next, the Army currently has a logistics pipeline that must support parts for the M-1, M-2, M-3, M-88, M-109, and M-113. Each of these vehicles also requires a unique set of skills for mechanics a separate set of diagnostics equipment, and training manuals. Logistically, maintaining and updating these vehicles is expensive and time consuming. The lessons of Stryker clearly demonstrate the advantages of fielding a common chassis for both training and logistics.
Although one can point to significant cost overruns in the FCS program, the causal factors that contributed to these overruns are complex. Despite the MGV program’s cancellation, the Army still has the knowledge and skills available to field a new family of vehicles.

MAJ Chris Ayers, Infantry
Student, Intermediate Learning Education Course

MAJ Ayers,

Good comments from an Infantry officer. Nobody is saying you don’t need tanks…but do you need as many tanks when all our potential foes are scrapping theirs are they are ancient. There are many things that can kill armor…it does not need to be a tank. Can’t we just keep the M1A2 and buy an 80,000 lb family of vehicles for ICV, howitzers, C2V, and recovery?

Which is more important to full spectrum conflict…more tanks or more infantry? Could we go to a combined arms battalion with 2 infantry and 1 tank company? Could we go to a 3 ICV company carrying 15 infantry on each with 2–3 M-ATV in the same platoon for full spectrum conflict?

Applaud your call for a common family of vehicles? At what size/weight would you base that vehicle? How would you integrate M-ATV into the heavy BCT? Would you consider putting Stryker ambulances and mortar vehicles in a heavy BCT?

Do you favor wheeled or tracked? Is a mix of both types with two vehicle families acceptable: a heavy tracked and wheeled medium?

Cole,

These are my personal views only and they don’t represent the Army’s. I think that we should be wary of following the lead of China and Russia in scrapping tanks. I think the main reason that they’re scrapping them is that benefit of keeping them in service doesn’t outweigh the cost of maintaining them. Many of these tanks were the equivalent of our M-48 and M-60 model tanks. The lifecycle cost of a tank is enormous when you factor in maintenance and training. There’s a significant opportunity cost of that. Maintaining a smaller fleet of tanks means that they can purchase more modern tanks to equip a better trained force. Both China and Russia are following our lead of a smaller and better trained Army.
I think the M1A2 will remain in service for quite some time regardless of any decision to replace them, but I don’t know the timeline.
The Army modularized its BCTs starting in 2004, and there’s no longer a mech inf or armor battalion in the HBCT. We currently have Combined Arms Battalions that are balanced with 2 armor companies and 2 heavy infantry companies, an engineer company, and a headquarters company. The feedback from theater is that these battalions are very effective.
The size and weight of the new vehicle is difficult to determine. I think we know that it’ll be lighter than an M1, but heavier than a Stryker.
There are good arguments for both tracked and wheeled vehicles. Much of this depends on how the scenarios the Army anticipates it face…your guess is as good as mine.

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