Army Debates GCV Weight, Protection

Army Debates GCV Weight, Protection

For somebody who has spent the past few years covering Army acquisition, it’s been interesting to watch the service’s position change on what it wants for a future battle fleet, from the turn-of-the-century desire for lightweight, rapidly deployable vehicles, to now, after eight years at war, a clear desire for heavier, more survivable vehicles. The change is being driven by the populating of top Army ranks, including on the acquisition side, with officers fresh from the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan.

You can read it in comments by Army officers here on the Future Combat Systems (FCS) program and Army modernization. As the operational Army moves into the ranks of the Title 10 Army, bringing lessons from the current wars with them, the service’s future shape will be forever altered as organization and weapons systems are rethought, the most immediate one being of course FCS.

Former Army chief Gen. Eric Shinseki’s vision was to build a largely air-deployable Army that could be sped to distant battlefields. That vision was driven by the failed effort to rapidly deploy a brigade sized task force to the Balkans, and the resulting fear among top Army leaders that it had limited post-Cold War utility. Little did the Army know it was about to become the lead service in two protracted land wars, abruptly putting an end to its existential crisis. The service’s expeditionary push began to lose steam as IEDs battered the Army’s fleet in Iraq and now Afghanistan, and staying power and protection moved up in priority.

Colin Clark wrote up some comments from last week’s roundtable discussion with Maj. Gen. James Terry, fresh from TRADOC and on his way to take command of 10th Mountain. I asked Terry what he would like to see in the Army’s new Ground Combat Vehicle (GCV). He said the internal Army debate going on right now is over the right balance between protection and deployability. The battlefield lessons he has learned has tipped him over to the greater protection side of that debate. “We’ve got to find the right design in that protection, then we have to look at mobility and lethality.”

Terry’s comments echoed those of Vice Chief Gen. Peter Chiarelli to the Senate Armed Services Committee AirLand Subcommittee last month about GCV requirements: “One lesson learned I have from this entire experience of two years in Iraq. The deployability and ease of deployability, the expeditionary capability, is always more attractive on this side of the next war. But once you get into the next war and on the other side of that war, survivability and crew protection are key and critical elements.”

FCS designers said vehicle survivability depended on the network. That concept doesn’t work so well if a “non-emitting” irregular enemy doesn’t show up on the network. The need for a more heavily armored future combat vehicle has been a recurring theme in some of the comment threads on DoD Buzz dealing with the follow-on to FCS such as here.

Terry said the GCV must be designed to accommodate future add-on armor packages as new technologies improve protection. “If [the GCV] comes in at a certain weight with current armor solutions in five years, then how can I remove that armor at the ten year mark and put something perhaps stronger and lighter on it.” He also said all the radios, networking gear and sensors being stuffed into current vehicles is seriously taxing available power.

This website uses IntenseDebate comments, but they are not currently loaded because either your browser doesn't support JavaScript, or they didn't load fast enough.

Join the Conversation

I have a suggestion. I wonder if it wouldn’t be smart to have a tab called Acronyms, that allowed users to scroll through acronyms to keep up with acronym rich texts such as this post.

Or rich media link each acronym to the database.

Great post btw.

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

For those who want to still push for rapid mobility, the Army should fund a DARPA program that was defunded by Congress called Walrus. Theoretically the airshiop would be able to carry 1000 tons I believe.

As for the issue of protection, the network is critical, but as Greg points out, what happens if your enemy isn’t as high tech and they blend in the shadows or they don’t have massive armored formations to detect, what then? You have to have an inherently tough armor suite on the vehicle to sustain those Kornet missiles that may pop out of nowhere.

On the issue of protection still, i’d argue that we should be going towards front engines like the Israelis do on their Merkavas and look into moving towards the unmanned gun turret that is much more slender than that hunking monstrosity that was on the FCS even though it was an unmanned turret.

Keep the push for electric vehicles as it increases range, achieves the power exportability issue and is stealthier.

Haha, that picture looks like the old Heavy Tank from OGRE.

Daniel Russ,

Sorry about the acronyms, clearly I’m spending too much time at military briefings. I’ve made some edits that hopefully clarify a bit.

Thanks and great suggestions!

Greg

is there an issue with your feeds? this story didn’t show up and i only found it while reading about LM/JET issue.

I would have to agree with the concept of engines up front, but we already have engines up front…the bradley, the m113, and the stryker. The only vehicle that does not have front engine in this catagory is the M1.

The brass that is studying this concept of the Army’s new vehicle needs to take into account the current airlift capability to get some of these vehicles into combat..and maybe purchase new airlifters for the air force along with vehicles for the army. These vehicles will still need to be airlifted into places like central Asia where overland supply routes are under danger of attack. And as for add on armor…why not stick with vehicles designed along the lines of the Bradley, and the Abrams. The Abrams for one has heavy armor and protection already. As for the turret…manned systems still out perform auto loaders. And there lies the problem.

You have to have a balance between protection and survivability and thereis the problem. And as for power needs on vehicles…install generators on them. And yes, this is an easy fix.

I think that you could not find two vehicles on the face of the planet that are more different than the Bradley and the M1.

*Ignores the troll and goes back ON TOPIC*

Finding a balance between protection and mobility is always a difficult task, but I believe once all the dust has settled we’ll have a awesome product.

The FCS technology of sensors should be incorporated into the new system aswell, the problem of insurgents not showing up on it is why UAV’s go ahead and spot the guys holding guns, and hopefully the sensors can be replaced easily as they become better, maybe a IED/mine detector? Science fiction is for the most part reality today.

As with the manned guns on the vehicles, I might be missing something, but they should be remotely controlled from inside the vehicle, having someone sit ontop of a vehicle and shoot a gun is so stone age like and not to mention extremely vulnerable.

The answer to the questions the Maj Gen Terry asked are quite rather straight forward. Pass them on to him if you like

1) For payload and weight…Use a monocoque structue. (single shell) This is where the outside skin of the vehicle is also part of the structure. (think hollow inside) This type of design gives maximum internal room for cargo/personnel/equipment, and minimizes redundant framing and crossbars. The soviets used a titanium monocoque hull to keep down the weight of the HIND-D attack helicopter. That’s why that beast can get off the ground and fly.

2) The armor upgrade answer is the TACOM A kit / B kit armor designs. The Europeans have actually been doing this for years. (except they upgrade the INSIDE armor , not the surface armor) The A kit is the vehicle’s skin. It has armor properties of anything from small arms 7.62mm to .50 cal resistant. The B kit is an applique (or applied armor) you attach on top of the A kit. (you can even use reactive tiles for RPG threats)

3) The solution to the gear problem is simple.…GET RID OF ALL THOSE PROPRIETARY CRAP. Keep the radios, and even some basic positioning/locator gear and ditch the rest. If you can’t do without it then you need to have a serious come to Jesus moment about integration.

Don’t let your contractors sell you an “open architecture system of systems engineering” and all that nonsense. It comes into play, but its oversold. Besides you probably already paid them to do it on an aviation platform or other vehicle.

Finally….Use more commercial parts where you can. Good packaging will do 90% of what all this “ruggedized” stuff will do. Whenever you get shown a box for only $10K ask yourself if you reallly need this stuff waterproof or ARTIC RATED in the desert? Espeically when you could buy 4 for the price of 1 uber component.

Bring the various component providers into a room, put a smart guy in charge, and tell them what you want. Then tell them their due date. Inform them that if any of them play turf war or is uncooperative they’ll be replaced that day. (if you don’t they’ll drag feet and then come to you one at a time to say they could do this faster themselves if it was sole source..)

Some of them will play ball, some of them won’t. The ones that don’t you don’t want to do business with in the first place. Never forget that half of what they’re selling you is already in the other guy’s stuff, they just don’t want to use/share his component because they’re on a cost + contract…..

1) Sorry, spaced armor. With the hull being part of the armor/structure, spall is a major problem. THe Army will just have to bite the bullet and buy vehicles in light, medium and heavy (i.e. keep the M1-AX around longer).

2) add on armor is good, the AGS and M-113 upgrades were good ideas. Perhaps a variant to replace the strykers?

3) The “come to jesus” moment should be why electronics/weapons are tied to the platform?
Unbolt what works and put it in whatever vehicle that works.

4) Keep the MRAP and strykers in reserve. We paid for them, keep them. Use them in place of HMMWV/JTV for command posts, medevac, etc.

5) Bite another bullet and buy more C-17’s/C-130’s and maybe a C-5 replacement. Stuff ain’t getting lighter…

6) real networking, vehicles crews should be able to call in artillery or Predator/F-35 strikes without calling layers of command, just point and click.

It will be interesting to see how, if at all the Army overcomes the options of infantry on foot for anything less than a month, or heavy mech with the multi-month preparations. Predictability remains a bad habit for warfare.

Personally I think the CV-90 series is on the mark. If only we could figure out how to make them in Michigan.

*required

Spam Protection by WP-SpamFree

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement