Comments on: To Ban Cluster Bombs http://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/ Online Defense and Acquisition Journal Thu, 09 Feb 2012 05:34:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Anabel Trevinohttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-35681 Anabel Trevino Mon, 06 Dec 2010 00:13:04 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-35681 Ominibus Ominibus

]]> By: Mike Casthttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-14098 Mike Cast Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:23:41 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-14098 Cluster munitions often kill children who find them and don't know they are nothing to play around with. If we can reduce the dud rate, that is a laudable goal. MIKE C. Cluster munitions often kill children who find them and don’t know they are nothing to play around with. If we can reduce the dud rate, that is a laudable goal. MIKE C.

]]> By: DoubleLhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13472 DoubleL Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:07:02 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13472 As someone said, we can all sleep easier tonight, Zambia will no longer use Cluster Munitions (Did they even have them to begin with?). People quote the numbers of people killed or injured by UXOs yet how many of those are due to mines and other munitions as compaired to cluster submunitions?Besides, you ban one weapon type and it will be replaced with another. History is loaded with examples of weapons developed to make war "So horrific man will never make war again." As someone said, we can all sleep easier tonight, Zambia will no longer use Cluster Munitions (Did they even have them to begin with?). People quote the numbers of people killed or injured by UXOs yet how many of those are due to mines and other munitions as compaired to cluster submunitions?

Besides, you ban one weapon type and it will be replaced with another. History is loaded with examples of weapons developed to make war “So horrific man will never make war again.”

]]> By: Alberthttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13372 Albert Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:00:12 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13372 Those nations that obey internaional law will conform. Those nations who claim to obey international law will laugh and go on their merry way. At one time I thought the notion of a one world government was the product of loons. International law is moving us one step closer to the one world government concept, and the loss of all our rights as American citizens. After all, presidential canidate Obama declared he is a citizen of the world.Think about this. What is an "internation court" ordered the halt to research into a nuclear bomb during WWII. Do you think Germany and Japan would conform? What if the U.S did obey the internation law banning nuclear research? The East coast would be speaking German and the West coast would be speaking Japanese! Those nations that obey internaional law will conform. Those nations who claim to obey international law will laugh and go on their merry way. At one time I thought the notion of a one world government was the product of loons. International law is moving us one step closer to the one world government concept, and the loss of all our rights as American citizens. After all, presidential canidate Obama declared he is a citizen of the world.

Think about this. What is an “internation court” ordered the halt to research into a nuclear bomb during WWII. Do you think Germany and Japan would conform? What if the U.S did obey the internation law banning nuclear research? The East coast would be speaking German and the West coast would be speaking Japanese!

]]> By: chuck in st paulhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13352 chuck in st paul Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:24:43 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13352 The International Court raises its ugly head once again. Propped up by America haters.While I agree that killing of civilians is something we need to work to eliminate, the very idea that our President and generals will be arrested to stand trial at the International Court bothers me immensely. I see this as just a ruse to once again defeat America by any means, not a true movement to reduce unnecessary casualties.Want to be Russia and China nod their heads and keep right on doin' what they're doin'?? The International Court raises its ugly head once again. Propped up by America haters.

While I agree that killing of civilians is something we need to work to eliminate, the very idea that our President and generals will be arrested to stand trial at the International Court bothers me immensely. I see this as just a ruse to once again defeat America by any means, not a true movement to reduce unnecessary casualties.

Want to be Russia and China nod their heads and keep right on doin’ what they’re doin’??

]]> By: Jim_in_Texashttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13316 Jim_in_Texas Thu, 27 Aug 2009 05:08:31 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13316 Sleep well tonight. Neither the Croatian, Slovenian nor Zambian air force is gonna use cluster bombs. I for one feel much safer now that they have signed on. Sleep well tonight. Neither the Croatian, Slovenian nor Zambian air force is gonna use cluster bombs. I for one feel much safer now that they have signed on.

]]> By: ReconTeamhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13300 ReconTeam Thu, 27 Aug 2009 03:21:35 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13300 It would be completely idiotic for the United States to join this "ban" on cluster weapons, thus I fear the liberals might attempt it.Cluster bombs and artillery munitions are incredibly effective in many scenarios, especially against larger formations. Improvements are constantly lowering the failure rate, and improving accuracy. It would be completely idiotic for the United States to join this “ban” on cluster weapons, thus I fear the liberals might attempt it.

Cluster bombs and artillery munitions are incredibly effective in many scenarios, especially against larger formations. Improvements are constantly lowering the failure rate, and improving accuracy.

]]> By: Drake1http://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13279 Drake1 Thu, 27 Aug 2009 01:08:12 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13279 That picture is of a Israeli bomb from a story on unxeploded Israeli cluster bombs. That picture is of a Israeli bomb from a story on unxeploded Israeli cluster bombs.

]]> By: Daniel Russhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13249 Daniel Russ Wed, 26 Aug 2009 18:53:42 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13249 The problem with cluster munitions can't be solved just by making new weapons with lower failure rates. Something like 13,000 people around the world have been killed or maimed by cluster bombs in the last 30 years during peacetime. In Vietnam, it's still around five people a week or roughly 300 a year. I have a call into a foundation in Ireland right now, I believe they are called Adopt A Minefield, and expect they have more accurate numbers on this.Some of these might just be hand planted mines.About one in three of these fatalities/injuries are children.Effective weapon? Sure, during the conflict. But the bomb doesn't know when the war is over.Daniel Russ Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup.com The problem with cluster munitions can’t be solved just by making new weapons with lower failure rates. Something like 13,000 people around the world have been killed or maimed by cluster bombs in the last 30 years during peacetime. In Vietnam, it’s still around five people a week or roughly 300 a year. I have a call into a foundation in Ireland right now, I believe they are called Adopt A Minefield, and expect they have more accurate numbers on this.

Some of these might just be hand planted mines.

About one in three of these fatalities/injuries are children.

Effective weapon? Sure, during the conflict. But the bomb doesn’t know when the war is over.

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup.com

]]> By: Byron Skinnerhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13245 Byron Skinner Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:50:27 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13245 Good Morning Scathseaigaire,You make some good points and provided the missing math on this topic. The CBU is a matured technology and may be only 10% from being perfect but that last 10% of technology is very costly. For the United States the CBU is a weapon of rather limited use, mostly early part of an engagement where the enemy might be tempted to have concentrations of troop, equipment or materials.A note here the CBU in the picture doesn't appear to be of American manufacture. The sub-amnunitions in U.S. made CBU's are colored yellow to make for easier Identification when the area is cleared for unexploded ordinance.The GPS CBU is accurate and it target coverage can be limited, but the CBU will leave behind unexploded ordinance the same as out of ever hundred rifle shots there will be a couple of flyers, this comes under the military doctrine sh** happens.Again I have to go back to the choices a field commander has, artillery barrages, or carpet bombing. These also leave behind unexploded ordinance but these forms of attack are not as discriminating as a GPS Guide CBU.I would say that other then being very discriminating and judicious in its use, the CBU as we know it will be in the arsenals of many countries for decades to come.ALLONS, Byron Skinner Good Morning Scathseaigaire,

You make some good points and provided the missing math on this topic. The CBU is a matured technology and may be only 10% from being perfect but that last 10% of technology is very costly. For the United States the CBU is a weapon of rather limited use, mostly early part of an engagement where the enemy might be tempted to have concentrations of troop, equipment or materials.

A note here the CBU in the picture doesn’t appear to be of American manufacture. The sub-amnunitions in U.S. made CBU’s are colored yellow to make for easier Identification when the area is cleared for unexploded ordinance.

The GPS CBU is accurate and it target coverage can be limited, but the CBU will leave behind unexploded ordinance the same as out of ever hundred rifle shots there will be a couple of flyers, this comes under the military doctrine sh** happens.

Again I have to go back to the choices a field commander has, artillery barrages, or carpet bombing. These also leave behind unexploded ordinance but these forms of attack are not as discriminating as a GPS Guide CBU.

I would say that other then being very discriminating and judicious in its use, the CBU as we know it will be in the arsenals of many countries for decades to come.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

]]> By: Alexhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13216 Alex Wed, 26 Aug 2009 06:51:10 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13216 And in the mean time, there is no question that our ROE using cluster munitions is quite restrictive. And in the mean time, there is no question that our ROE using cluster munitions is quite restrictive.

]]> By: Alexhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13214 Alex Wed, 26 Aug 2009 06:50:12 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13214 Scath none of those examples tell me anything, except that decades-old technology had issues with bomblet fuses. The U.S. is developing new cluster munitions with a MUCH MUCH lower fail rate, and further safeguards to prevent duds from accidentally detonating afterwords. I'm confident our defense industry will find a solution that makes this issue mostly irrelevant in future conflicts. Scath none of those examples tell me anything, except that decades-old technology had issues with bomblet fuses. The U.S. is developing new cluster munitions with a MUCH MUCH lower fail rate, and further safeguards to prevent duds from accidentally detonating afterwords. I’m confident our defense industry will find a solution that makes this issue mostly irrelevant in future conflicts.

]]> By: Scathsealgairehttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13211 Scathsealgaire Wed, 26 Aug 2009 05:08:39 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13211 @Alex "This is useless for a country like U.S that has the capability to create cluster munitions with virtually no duds."Laos was bombed with US made cluster-bombs, dropped by the US. It also is one one the leading countries in child mortality and maiming by cluster-bombs. As for "virtually no duds", CBU-75 Sadeye which the US used during Vietnam dropped 1,800 bomblets. If it were 99% failure proof that would leave 18 unexploded bombs on the ground. However that 1% is unlikely, it was probably close to 10% or 180 unexploded bomblets.The CBU-87 CEM used in Desert Storm contained 202 and had a manufacture claimed failure rate of 5%, or 10 bomblets. 10,035 CBU-87 CEM's were dropped during Desert Storm. That would leave 101,353 unexploded bomblets.It is not just civilians who get hurt. Our own soldiers can get hurt and killed by our own cluster bomb. People forget, you still have to take and hold territory, you can't just bomb and bomb some more(well flyboys like to I suppose).Now don't get me wrong, cluster-bombs have a role in warfare. But war is messy and to believe otherwise is wrongheaded. @Alex
“This is useless for a country like U.S that has the capability to create cluster munitions with virtually no duds.”

Laos was bombed with US made cluster-bombs, dropped by the US. It also is one one the leading countries in child mortality and maiming by cluster-bombs.
As for “virtually no duds”, CBU-75 Sadeye which the US used during Vietnam dropped 1,800 bomblets. If it were 99% failure proof that would leave 18 unexploded bombs on the ground. However that 1% is unlikely, it was probably close to 10% or 180 unexploded bomblets.

The CBU-87 CEM used in Desert Storm contained 202 and had a manufacture claimed failure rate of 5%, or 10 bomblets. 10,035 CBU-87 CEM’s were dropped during Desert Storm. That would leave 101,353 unexploded bomblets.

It is not just civilians who get hurt. Our own soldiers can get hurt and killed by our own cluster bomb. People forget, you still have to take and hold territory, you can’t just bomb and bomb some more(well flyboys like to I suppose).

Now don’t get me wrong, cluster-bombs have a role in warfare. But war is messy and to believe otherwise is wrongheaded.

]]> By: Drake1http://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13208 Drake1 Wed, 26 Aug 2009 01:31:24 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13208 Don't they have cluster bombs that detonate on their own after a cetrain period of time? Don’t they have cluster bombs that detonate on their own after a cetrain period of time?

]]> By: Byron Skinnerhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13202 Byron Skinner Tue, 25 Aug 2009 21:53:21 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13202 Good Afternoon Folks,War is about killing and the cluster bombs makes it possible to deal with large formations while containing collateral damage. Choices like nuclear, artillery barrages or carpet bombing kill more civilians (collaterals) then CBU's. Another option and one that I personally prefer from experience is napalm but the visual impact of the people injured or killed in a napalm strike is horrid. But when it cools down the killing is done there are no little gifts for future generations to discover.Without napalm or cluster bombs the only viable option left is chemical weapons, which nobody wants. The cluster bomb appears the be the best of nasty options, to make them more efficient would also make them safer and would better killing machines.ALLONS, Byron Sknner Good Afternoon Folks,

War is about killing and the cluster bombs makes it possible to deal with large formations while containing collateral damage. Choices like nuclear, artillery barrages or carpet bombing kill more civilians (collaterals) then CBU’s. Another option and one that I personally prefer from experience is napalm but the visual impact of the people injured or killed in a napalm strike is horrid. But when it cools down the killing is done there are no little gifts for future generations to discover.

Without napalm or cluster bombs the only viable option left is chemical weapons, which nobody wants. The cluster bomb appears the be the best of nasty options, to make them more efficient would also make them safer and would better killing machines.

ALLONS,
Byron Sknner

]]> By: rolandhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13197 roland Tue, 25 Aug 2009 21:22:56 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13197 This is like banning the Chinese,Russia, North Korea weapon. If we can do that we might as well ban all wars.How can we ban something if a country is at war and their using it against you already ? This is like banning the Chinese,Russia, North Korea weapon. If we can do that we might as well ban all wars.How can we ban something if a country is at war and their using it against you already ?

]]> By: rolandhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13195 roland Tue, 25 Aug 2009 21:20:03 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13195 This is like banning Russia, Iran, and Chinese weapons. Hey, can we do that? I just dont know if you can ban a weapon on war time. If we can do that we might just as well ban This is like banning Russia, Iran, and Chinese weapons.
Hey, can we do that? I just dont know if you can ban a weapon on war time. If we can do that we might just as well ban

]]> By: Alexhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/08/25/to-ban-cluster-bombs/#comment-13192 Alex Tue, 25 Aug 2009 19:24:58 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=9134#comment-13192 This is useless for a country like U.S that has the capability to create cluster munitions with virtually no duds. This is useless for a country like U.S that has the capability to create cluster munitions with virtually no duds.

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