Army Future May Boast New M1, Strykers

Army Future May Boast New M1, Strykers

“I expect to be underwhelmed.” That is the response one Capitol Hill aide who follows Son of FCS expects to have when the Army unveils its plans for combat vehicle modernization in the next week or so.

Although the Army may have crafted a brilliant and innovative approach to filling its modernization stocking with new vehicles and technologies, this aide and others watching the Manned Ground Vehicle effort see little sign of it.

Instead, it looks as if the Army may well end up doing an upgrade to the magnificent beast known as the Abrams tank. The new name floating around is the M1E1, which certainly sounds much more sonorous than the M1A2 SEP or similar.


The Bradley and M113 seem unlikely candidates for any upgrades, this congressional aide said. But Strykers certainly make sense as the service’s most modern combat vehicle and the only one that boasts anything like an effective and integrated network capability, the aide said. And an Army source says the service hopes to build an additional three to five Stryker brigades — about $2 billion each — over the next five to seven years as a bridge between the current force and one equipped with the early Manned Ground Vehicle units.

Should the Army congressional liaison office need any more hints to pass to the TRADOC team and senior Army leaders working on the new Army modernization requirements, they might note that this aide was unimpressed when briefed on the Army’s efforts. In particular, the idea of rolling technology out in two-year increments, and including costs for training and forces as part of that effort, drew a congressional retort along the lines of, “I told them we don’t fund things that way. You have to fund a program and we do it year by year.” Also, the aide hopes “they chuck the five to seven year timeline” for fielding a son of FCS.

That timeline just isn’t supportable. The defense authorizers and appropriators are likely to give the Army only $50 million for 2010 for son of FCS. “I can’t imagine they are going to go in there, and say, it’s $50 million for 2010 and then next year it’s going to be a billion. I just cant see them winning that argument,” this aide said, noting that the Army can pretty much only develop requirements and do some concept of operations studies with $50 million. And it would almost be impossible for the Army to come up with substantially more money in the next year as the likely operational and force structure bills from Afghanistan and Iraq come due. Army modernization efforts often get eaten by force structure or operational bills, the aide noted.

Share |

Join the Conversation

The information he has certainly does not sound like what LTG Vane is putting out in ArmyTimes:

http://​www​.armytimes​.com/​n​e​w​s​/​2​0​0​9​/​0​8​/​a​r​m​y​_​v​e​h​i​c​l​e​s​_​0​8​2​2​0​9w/

Have no idea what the task force has come up with, but certainly doubt it places tank upgrades as the highest priority. Tankers already have greater protection than anyone else on the battlefield. IMHO, it sure seems given the reduced worldwide tank threat, that we need less tanks overall in every combined arms battalion, and what we have is sufficient for now.

Infantry are essential across the spectrum of conflict, while tanks are not. The current Bradley only carries 6–7 dismounts while the Stryker carries 9. A Bradley replacement also needs to hold at least nine.

An opportunity exists for a joint infantry vehicle for both Army and Marines that would need to carry 13 dismounts to match a Marine squad-size. That size would also perfectly align with an Army platoon with 3 vehicles instead of the Bradley’s 4 and the prior FCS MGV plan for 5. The rest could be MRAP/M-ATV for stability ops. Given General Cartwright’s comments the other day, just can’t fathom that the EFV will or should survive.

But guess we will wait and see. Is M1E1 for efficiency or electronics? An EFV only makes 1 mpg (325 gallons for 325 miles on land) and it is doubtful that even with a diesel engine that a heavier, more powerful (1500hp vs. 800 hp and 60K more lbs) M1E1 could match that.

Suspect you and this aid are correct and a 5–7 year BCT ground combat vehicle upgrade is unlikely unless we find someway to get out of Afghanistan more rapidly than it currently appears.

How much farther can a Abrams be upgraded? Isn’t it about time to get modern vehicles?

What vehicle in the world is more advanced that a Abrams ‚Zach?

I mean, the MBT could be upgraded?and how with today tech?

Good Evening Folks,

The Abrams/Bradley/M-113 modernization programs has been going on for a couple of years now, at a snails pace but still going on. When a vehicle goes through the process it comes out as a zero hours vehicle.

It appears that Cole hasn’t heard but that both the Marines and Army are reducing the size of the squad. As for the electronics the Bradley has plenty of room for upgrades which should start with changing over the current 25mm Bushmaster to the 35/50mm Bushmaster III

A new wheeled Infantry carrier, perhaps something along the lines of the Marines LAV-25 upgraded or a new version of the HUMVEE that is more surviveable in combat. Can be transported ready to go into combat on the C-130 or be air dropped from the C-130.

The Stryker is a loser and we don’t need any more of them, 3121 Strykers are more then plenty. Cole left out an important point about Stryker, the current U.S. air lift capacity can’t deploy the Stryker.

The current deployment of the 5th. Stryker Brigade of the 2ID. The Strykers went by ship from Seattle to Diego Garcia and all 300 Strykers finished their journey to Afghanistan on chartered Russian Military AN-124’s. Cole tell me again why we need a questionable vehicle that we can’t even deploy with out the help of the Russians?

The U.S. currently has the largest, most modern and most powerful armored force in the world, by test. There is no country or a combination of countries in the world that can challenge us. We don’t need any more armor. period. The FCS MGV is dead and it’s starting to stink the joint up.

How about we spend our money on systems and equipment that will help win the war in Afghanistan, a war that is currently now going well.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

It is time for some new armor, yet in the short term it may be wise to upgrade the Abrams and possibly the Bradley. More extensive upgrades to the Stryker may also be a good decision, since GCV probably won’t aim for a “light” 20–25 ton vehicle as MGV did. If we really have 3000+ Strykers, perhaps we should just focus on upgrading them instead of buying more.

I imagine the GCV will be a family of vehicles on a common chassis, with a 40 ton max weight in order to fit two in a C-17A. These would certainly replace the Bradley and Paladin, but may leave some upgraded Abrams in service.

Alternatively it could be a family of heavier vehicles (45–60 tons), either using a common chassis or sharing many of the same parts. A MBT weighing lets say 55 tons, could easily replace the Abrams.

I rather doubt all 300 Strykers were transported by AN-124s, less than 50 AN-124s are in civilian hands, available to be contracted. Meanwhile we have over 180 C-17s, and at least 100 C-5s.

The USAF does need to upgrade all of the C-5s they can to C-5M standard, and perhaps buy more C-17s or look at new cargo aircraft for the future. We should also see if there is anyway we could improve our sea-lift capability.

Bryon, good catch on the Marine Expeditionary Rifle Squad transitioning from 13 to 8 Marines. That actually provides greater rationale for using a common Army/Marine ground combat vehicle.

It might have been more challenging to get 13 dismounts into a vehicle weighing 80K lbs since the uparmored Bradley is around 73K and has just 7 dismounts. I’m aware of no effort to reduce Army dismounted squad size below the nine desired. Please cite a reference.

You were partially correct on the Diego Garcia Strykers, but it was a combined Russian charter and C-17 effort:

http://​www​.defenselink​.mil/​n​e​w​s​/​n​e​w​s​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​.​a​s​p​x​?​i​d​=​5​5​576

Note that a combined sealift/airlift effort saved $54 million…and it was achieveable given no need to deploy forces in a shorter timeframe.

Future Stryker and Ground Combat Vehicle task forces far smaller than 300 armored vehicles could just as easily be flown from storage at Diego Garcia, or Europe while the remainder on other prepositioning ships sail from there.

JLTV is the Hummer replacement down the road, but SecDef Gates wants to include MRAP/M-ATV in the future force as well. The ArmyTimes​.com link provided hinted at the possibility of using those vehicles in lieu of other new start-from-scratch armored vehicles.

Again, the Army efforts to install concrete barriers in Sadr city back in 2008(?) involved Infantry, Stryker, and Heavy forces in the same task force. Future air and sealifted task forces may just as easily employ all three force types. We already have 7 Stryker BCTs and a poster hinted the other day that we may well end up with 12 such BCTs and 12 heavy BCTs…a potentially ideal blend when the 3rd combined arms battalion is added back to the heavy BCT.

Obviously, the fact that Strykers were sent to Afghanistan illustrates the broad spectrum of conflict that armor can be used in. We already possess exponential asymmetrical advantages in air and seapower. It’s the Army’s turn.

Upgraded ground combat vehicles simply apply the same asymmetric advantage to Army and perhaps Marine ground forces. The Abrams already far surpasses the protection of other legacy armor. It is the other legacy M113, Bradley, and AAV force that are bearing the deployment, casualty, and warfighting brunt that needs to be addressed first.

ReconTeam:
With today tech we cannot replace the Abrams.I think that the Abrams is the final chapter in the MBT race.You cannot improve the Chobham technology in the Abrams.The cannons approach impractical sizes as well.The turbine is more powerful that anything out there.You can have something like a light or medium tank but nothing in the foreseeable future can replace the Abrams.

First we should see how the Strykers do in Afghanistan — that is some pretty challenging country. They will work great down in the flat country and not many vehicles can go everywhere in Afghanistan.
The Army sure has a lot of contraints — you have to protect against a possible conflict where you need armor (such as the Israelis saw in Gaza and Lebanon) and be as light as possible to speed deployments. You need some vehicle that is resistant to IEDs but that vehicles sticks up so far that it could become an easy target.
It does sound like the current Abrams needs an auxiliary generator so it can run the electronics without running the main engine. Among other things.
The current deficit puts many things in jepardy and we have a lot of deferred maintenance coming due, from wear in SWA.
Likely any program should plan on no budget increase — just hope that budgets do not go down.

I haven’t seen anything on new infantry systems. Yes, armor needs to be modernized, networked, upgraded, what-have-you, but so does the Infantryman. Is there any word at all on new rifles, or research for same?
The M-4 is one of the best weapons on the battlefield, but that’s like saying the one-legged man will beat parapalegiecs in a foot race.
Anything new about radios or other systems?

Why the **** does it take 50 years to design and built and armored vehicle that doesn’t suck??? Talk about incompetence…

The Stryker is garbage. The thing is more expensive than it needs to be, and every time I turn my back it needs a new upgrade to what it was supposed to. I don’t lay this completely on GD, they built what they were asked to. (so this isn’t a contractor rant)

Think of it this way, entire concept for which the Stryker was built is dead. Combine that with the realities of IED’s and RPG’s it’s just an obsolete design. Would I take a Stryker over a HMMWV, sure.….but I’d vote none of the above if I had the chance.

The M1 on the other had is a real dilemma. For “know it all’s” like myself who espouse a hybrid warfare concept, we don’t see the need for tanks.…so building a new one seems like a misallocation of resources. On the other hand, I’ll admit I’m too conservative to have an Army without heavy armor.(in case of emergency, break glass)

I say ditch the Stryker, it was a worthy try; but keep the M1. Just get a manager who can count in there and bring the upgrade costs down to a small fortune. We’re paying more for certain components than we paid for the damn tank.……

Good Morning Cole,

Fun being back at it again Cole.

There is no question of the need for Infantry, really what we are taking about here is how best to get them to where they are needed with the equipment they need to carry out their assigned mission(s).

As we are seeing with the 1ID and it’s current realignment there is not a fixed definition for the BCT. I could see where the same infantry company could be transported by airmobile to cover distance, on to Bradley’s for an assault action and finally to the JLTV or LAT-25 for entering an area where collateral damage is of high concern and a softer foot print is desired.

Your comment on our legacy vehicles doing the war fighting in the current wars, isn’t that what we bought them for. As for a battle taxi the M-113 is still the worlds best and most adaptable APC/AFV, and that’s from hard earned experience in Vietnam on the M-113 ACAV.

A joint use land fighting vehicle for both the Army and marines. The JLTV still has to prove itself, and as a vehicle for urban fighting it might be fine, but what is needed is an amphibious (to cross lakes, streams and rivers, not open ocean landings) and more direct fire power to support the dismounts. So far the only vehicle that can do this is the 60 year old M-113 up to the A3 with an up armor package.

I have no doubts that more of the not ready for a war Strykers will be bought with most likely a doubling of the number or more of vehicles for no other reasons the U.S. Government now owns GM and Canada also has a chunk of GM. For building value in GM they need orders and the Strykers are a good production item for GM and Canada where they are made.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

The biggest upgrade the M1 could use is a new engine/powerplant. Besides all the network and electronics they want to pack into it (need more electricity), it is probably the most fuel inefficient vehicle in existence. Better fuel efficiency means fewer fuel trucks on the road to be shot at, long range offensives, and smaller costs to operate.

The nomenclature M1E1 does not signify that an upgrade is related to some “E” technology. It’s just Army nomenclature weenie usage for an experimental vehicle. And it’s wrong. You tack the E1 on the end of the latest type classified version so it’d be M1A2E1, or something like that. As an example the M109A6 Paladin was the M109A3E2 during prototyping efforts since the M109A3 was the only thing out there. There was a parallel effort to make an M109A3E1 that became the M109A5.

The M1 is a good vehicle but doesn’t need any more money than is required to keep in viable.

They get destroyed just like HMMWVS by IEDs — just like Bradleys.

The M1 is only used because it is a badass piece of machinery. Most of the time in our current wars the soldiers operating the tanks aren’t even authorized to fire the main gun.

The DoD needs to spend dollars on fielding a replacement for the HMMWV with a V shaped hull that can reduce the threat of IEDs.

Everything blows up.

Where is the machine gun and the missile luncher top of the tank? I guess it would be cool if it does have this on top of the M1E1 that can be controled by computer inside the tank. Most Russian and Chinesse tanks have this on their tanks

The M1 does the job it was designed to do very well and should remain in the inventory in the forseeable future, but it is expensive to operate and maintain. It doesn’t do well in mountains and it is not easily transportable by military airlift. Leave the M1 to fight other heavy mechanized divisions if the need should arise. The issue for the Army in the future is waht to do about infantry transport and protection. The M-113 was too vulnerable and teh M2/M3 Bradley too heavy. The Stryker is better, but not the best solution in all cases. The MRAP is an anomoly for a mobile force, not very good for quick deployment. Sounds like the Army needs to do more R&D on using exotic materials and come up with a vehicle that is both lighter than the M2/M3 and as well protected as the MRAP. Until then, more of the same is to be expected.

Lets focus on the war we are in NOW. UAV’s, etc should be priority. How much better can an Abrams get? I do like the NLOS system, where a box of missles can be dropped anywhere, and hit targets with precision. Don’t know exactly wat its called, but I like that.

@Ryno327–
That would be called the Non-Line Of Sight Launch System (NLOS-LS)
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​N​o​n​-​L​i​n​e​-​o​f​-​S​i​g​h​t​_​L​a​u​n​c​h​_​S​y​s​tem

Roland, the M1 Abrams has 3 machine guns and a 120mm main gun. It doesn’t need missiles. The .50 cal and one of the 7.62mm machine guns can be fired from inside the turret.

Even if we only upgrade the Abrams (new engine, ADS, etc.) one thing that should be on the replacement list along with the Paladin, is the Bradley. The Bradley was a good vehicle in it’s time, but today we could easily design a better protected, better armed, and more efficient vehicle, carrying a full nine man squad.

Here is an interesting article on the ASM program from the early 1990s.

http://​www​.secretprojects​.co​.uk/​f​o​r​u​m​/​i​n​d​e​x​.​p​h​p​/​t​o​p​i​c​,​3​8​6​0​.​0​/​h​i​g​h​l​i​g​h​t​,​a​r​m​o​r​e​d​+​s​y​s​t​e​m​s​+​m​o​d​e​r​n​i​z​a​t​i​o​n​.​h​tml

Now this is right before the Soviets fell apart, but there were some smart ideas here.

The U.S. Army plans to build prototypes of a tougher, more high-tech M1A3 Abrams main battle tank by 2014, with an aim to field it by 2017

/www.c4isrjournal.com/story.php?F=4165040

I think the M1 is probably the last tank that America will ever build. There will be modifications and such, but I doubt there will ever be another MBT type vehicle designed from the ground up.

None the less, if I were designing such a vehicle this is what I would want:

1) A more merkava style layout with the engine in the front and an access ramp in the back. That would give you the ability to carry a small (as in REALLY small) dismount element to provide close protection. It would also make it possible to replenish the tank by building the ammo and maybe some fuel into a pallet that you could pull out through the rear hatch. With the proper equipment it would take minutes to reload the tank instead of hours.

2) Leverage some of the NLOS-C technology and replace the loader with an auto-loader for the main gun. Then move the gunner down into the hull. Leave the commander in the turret to maintain his situational awareness and maybe operate the gun if the auto-loader goes down. Removing the two crew posts would give you a much smaller and lighter turret.

Re: autoloader

I think they considered an autoloader for the M1 back in the ‘80s, but at the time it wasn’t reliable or cost effective enough to justify. Since they added an autoloader to the Stryker’s 105mm cannon a couple years ago, it might be possible now for an MBT.

They did consider an autoloader TB. It was rejected for the reasons you named and because manual loading gave a greater rate of fire. I was just thinking that some of those problems must have been solved with Crusader/NLOS-C.

Rick wrote:

> A more merkava style layout with the engine
> in the front and an access ramp in the back

I’m glad someone brought this up. The Israelis, with a lot of recent experience in armored combat, came up with the Merkava with those characteristics. It’s still a heavy tank, at around 65 metric tons, with a great deal of crew protection built-in.

By the time a new tank program ramps up, a crew may not even be required anymore. No crew means a smaller, lighter, less expensive vehicle. One that probably scares the hell out of the friendlies almost as much as the bad guys.

i’d like to see a personal tank.
by that i mean an powered enclosure which protected the soldier inside.

tanks are a great idea, but how about the grunts plowing dirt outside?

that’s my point.

if we can have our kids playing with transformers and watching transformer movies, who not make (without endless prototyping) a fully armored and powered exoskeleton that a soldier could enter and be protected against most anything short of a direct missile hit?

aren’t the men and women the real asset?
wouldn’t duty in dirt be a lot more tolerable with the a/c running rather than 125F?

you tell me differently. all the news is about rifle, IED and RPG attacks. those are the threats i’d design against. i’d have these things able to climb moutains and kick the s___ out of whomever it finds on them.

that’s my input on the need for tanks (which are all well and good) but don’t address the area where most casualties and injuries occur… the exposed soldier…

Two questions: Why no reconsideration of something like the M8 with variable armour packages? And what about passing auto technology into the military? There HAVE to be more efficient diesels than what’s running the Bradleys (and Strykers? Sorry, don’t remember off the top of my head), not to mention hybrid drives, either as “power booster” for the drive or for operating the electronics without a heat bloom from the engines, and even electric drive for “stealth”. It seems like the upgrades look at obvious stuff like guns and electronics, at the expense of all other areas…

howard:look for future soldier in defense technology international in ares.They are in something like you want,.

I haven’t been able to find any information on this so called “M1E1” or what this upgrade would include. I am pretty certain M1E1 was the designation of the M1A1 prototype anyway, testing the 120mm gun and all of those changes.

M1E3 will be the designation for the development of the next generation Abrams. Once it is type classified it will be designated M1A3. It will have significant increases in on board managed power for some FCS technologies, APS, LW 120mm gun and other sensor technologies.

*required

Spam Protection by WP-SpamFree

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement