Holes in US Defense Umbrella: Wynne

Holes in US Defense Umbrella: Wynne

[EDITOR’S NOTE: One of the debates bubbling beneath the surface over the last few months has been about just what effects Defense Secretary Robert Gates’ program cuts, combined with a flat defense budget projected for the next five years, would have on America’s ability to project power. Former Air Force Secretary Mike Wynne argues in a commentary that the administration is schizophrenic about its national security approach. On the one hand, the State Department is offering the broadest defense umbrella it can to friends and allies. On the other hand, Gates is cutting crucial systems that would help the US extend and maintain that umbrella.]

Wynne’s opinion piece follows:

What Umbrella?


Consistency may be the hobgoblin of little minds, but it is crucial for foreign and defense policy. Yet there is a serious disconnect between the foreign policy suggested by the Secretary of State and that being sustained by Secretary Gates. Recently, the Secretary of States underscored the strategic imperative of US global engagement and protection. Secretary Clinton underscored the necessity that ‘America will extend its umbrella of Defense to protect its allies.’ Meanwhile, Secretary Gates is continuing his path of encouraging the President to cut the tools which allow the US to indeed provide such an umbrella. By recommending the twin paths of eliminating the F-22 and significantly reducing missile defense efforts, one could ask what tools the Secretary of Defense intends to offer to implement the strategic imperative suggested by the Secretary of State

Secretary Gates has recommended that America operate with a shortened F-22 fleet and has the Air Force scrambling to figure out how to leverage this ‘Best in the World’ aircraft with fourth generation technology in the venerable F-15, and F-16 fleets. Citing the approach of the F-35, while rumors swirl that delays may plague this fine aircraft through its testing period, Secretary Gates remains convinced that there will be no need for an air dominant airplane to underwrite the strategic umbrella.

So; we examine the umbrella that has been promised and see that, together with the F-22 line closure, the budget also contains cuts in the Missile Defense expenditure in the very areas that were intended to protect allies; termination or delay in the Transformational Satellite program, which was a principal communications program to support the transformed Army, which also is losing its Future Combat System, and a delay in the Long Range Bomber and Reconnaissance aircraft targeted to replace an aging B-2, B-1, and B-52 fleet.

Together these cuts provide a strong signal that the United States is reducing investment in the strategic and deterrent forces, and is increasing investment in irregular warfare assets. This shift is big enough that in the preamble to the Australian Defense paper — their equivalent to the Quadrennial Defense Review — they state for the record that they can no longer rely in the foreseeable future on the United States to be the dominant force in the region. Australia is one of America’s staunchest allies, and this is a major change in their outlook for their region. Maybe the American umbrella is somewhat frayed as it extends across the Pacific, and the Australians don’t see where the irregular forces will fit in their plans for strategic engagement and protection.

Then there is Japan, seeking to replace their aging fleet of F-16’s, who asked to buy the F-22. This takes a page from Admiral Mullen’s 1,000-ship Navy, in which he wanted to rely on interoperable compatible partner navies since he saw the US Navy being stretched thin and was worried about strategic coverage. These worries apparently don’t extend to the Air Force, as any request for F-22’s by Japan has been quietly denied before they asked formally. Indeed, a Japanese buy of 60 F-22s, along with other allies, would have amortized the cost of adding additional US F-22s and provided US workers with 10 years of high technology work. The value of the exports, including support and training, for the next 20 years might have approached $100 billion; where else can the US spend $4 billion to reap $100 billion?

Eliminating the F-22 may result in Japan becoming very interested in the Eurofighter, as the costs for the F-35 continues to grow. So, even as we struggle to keep auto workers employed, we watch aerospace workers leave the roster; and prospects for job gains by European aerospace workers. This as well seems to confirm the Australian view; and has sent tremors all around the world as America signals a change in defense posture.

Some are beginning to see the impact of the change, though others see a huge victory over the beleaguered defense Industry. It certainly looks like a full blown recession for engineering talent looms in this vital industry, with layoffs from coast to coast and border to border. We worry about the lack of US citizens graduating in science and engineering, but we must remember that the defense industry currently employs almost 50% of these graduates. Is this short sighted, another peace dividend, or a weary defense institution saying no more? It is hard to judge, but history is a harsh critic, and we all hope the forecasted ‘Peace in our time’ is real.

One writer, Steve Forbes, in an article titled “Save the Raptor” in the latest issue of Forbes, correctly surmises that the F-22 Raptor is the finest air dominance aircraft ever built, and that the F-35, good in its own right, does not come close. Rumor has it, that the air tactics from the F-22 are not very transferable to the F-35 because of the difference in capability. Makes one wonder how much this administration really understands about what they have done, and what they have convinced this president to support. As Forbes concludes: “What a blunder.“

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He forgot to mention the potential cuts in our carrier fleet as well. Fortunately, the U.S. is still decades ahead of our nearest competitor in terms of power projection, so as soon as we kick Obama out of office hopefully the next pres can get us back on track. All of this while blitzing the CIA for “alleged abuses”.

In the mean time, don’t expect much innovation or revolutionary technologies to come along that weren’t already in the pipeline.

As sympathetic as I am to Mike Wynne, I must quibble with his examples. The F-22 is a great airplane but is so outlandishly expensive that we have finally gotten to a point that we can’t afford new aircraft. People have been pointing out the steeply growing cost per airframe and that growth curve has finally passed the affordability barrier. One of those costs $120 million where as the F-15E is $35 million. Couldn’t we develop an F-21 that had the performance but was not stealthy (for example) but costs only $50 million???
And missile defense is really at a research and development stage — not operational. As a long time space guy, we should not be deploying operational interceptors.
I would support this argument but would offer different examples — the wear on our current air fleet, the age of any of our bombers, etc.

Pardon me, but I here the grinding of an axe in the background. Didn’t Dr. Gates fire this guy?

Charles Phillips: Expense can be thought of in absolute terms, but “per-effect” expense is just as important (if not more so). It is not necessarily true that four $30-million-dollar fighters are the equivalent of one $120-million-dollar fighter.

“And missile defense is really at a research and development stage…”

Ah-heh. THAAD? SM-3? PAC-3? These are not low-time, low-maturity R&D programs.

Aurora,

Ax grinding is a fine and respected Washington tradition. And just because someone is grinding an ax doesn’t mean they don’t have a sharp point.…

“Citing the approach of the F-35, while rumors swirl that delays may plague this fine aircraft through its testing period, ”

Wake up dude. What testing? What fine aircraft?

On June 5, 2008, Robert Gates announced that he had accepted the resignation of Michael Wynne as Secretary of the Air Force because of “a decline in the Air Force’s nuclear mission focus and performance” and “lack of a critical self-assessment culture”. Unstated was the fact that Gates and the Bush Administration wanted production of the Raptor to end at 183 planes because of multiple failures by the Bush-Rumsfeld-Wynne Air Force to control costs on the program.
The fact that the Bush-Rumsfeld-Wynne Air Force also failed to control costs or contract performance on the F-35 is something he actually has the balls to cite in his screed above. It’s pretty impressive actually. Missile Defense–the Air Force managed part of that program doesn’t actually protect us against missiles that don’t actually exist yet. If they did exist in places like Iran and North Korea, it still wouldn’t work, and the Navy’s program MIGHT work if we had several weeks worth of warning and days of tracking data on missile warheads that were in orbit instead of behaving like missile warheads.
The Bush-Rumsfeld-Wynne Air Force never proposed replacements for the B-1 or the B-52, or if they did, they never went beyond a “gee, it would be nice to have that” phase, and he wants to mention that as a problem?
He could’ve saved everybody a lot of time and just admitted that he was an incompetent SECAF, whose primary goal was giving the fighter mafia whatever they wanted at the risk to just about every other platform and program the Air Force has, to say nothing of the rest of DOD, and nothing about platforms that were actually in use. Under Wynne’s watch, the Air Force staff actually had briefings for subordinate commands that described the US Navy and US Army as threat-competitors to the Air Force. Why is ANYBODY who actually loves this country and knows anything at all about national defense actually listening to this fool?

Quality is a quantity all its own. If 1 F-22 is more effective than 5 F-15 SEs, then $120million is a great deal compared to the $35 for a SE. Why are we so hung up on cost of the airframe? It’s like saying Aegis cruisers are too expensive because they cost $2billion when we could buy two million dinghies for $1,000 each. The example is a bit dramatic, but the principle is the same. People are measuring the value of an aircraft only in its cost, but value has to be measured relative to cost and capability. If the capability of an aircraft is 10x more than another aircraft but only 5x the cost, then I’d say it is of great value.

Obama is a vile, left-wing, anti-American traitor. He’s deliberately weakening America’s position to steal more money for his corrupt cronies.

Jim: Is your name Maurice Schwenkler?

I hate to pick nits, Mr. Wynne, but you’re misquoting Ralph Waldo Emerson. Consistency isn’t the hobgoblin of little minds. Foolish Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. A foolish consistency would be, for instance, rebidding the KC-X Tanker over and over again. Sour grapes, indeed.

And soonergrunt, I wouldn’t bag on Wynne for cost overruns on ANY program. The process itself is broken. First, the government incentivizes contractors to underbid. Remember, the low bidder wins the contract, and under cost-plus contracts the winner won’t be penalized for underestimating the cost to perform the work. Add in the inevitable scope creep that happens along the way, and you have virtually guaranteed that every significant development program will be overbudget (and late) when it’s finished.

It may be Maurice. It might also be Ashley Todd.

A. Nonymous–
Your point is well taken, but as SECAF, it was Mr. Wynne’s responsibility to prevent that from happening. In this, he singularly failed. If the system is broken or not, it was his, Rumsfeld’s, and yes, President Bush’s responsibility to fix it. None of them acted to do so. Members of Congress of both parties share the blame for their failure of oversight, as does President Clinton and his SECDEFs and service secretaries.
SECDEF Gates has made moves, supported by President Obama to get these problems under control, and Congress is finally making belated noises about fixing procurement.
I’ll believe it when I see it. I believe that the entire system will have to be overhauled, and I’m not sure that Secretary Gates and President Obama and the service secretaries and Congress will actually succeed. It will be their failures then, but at least they’re talking about it. This is something we didn’t hear during the last presidency. We went to war with the Army we had, not the Army we wish we had instead of fixing long-standing problems.

Capping the F22 was a good idea. Carriers too. Realigning defense spending to fight todays wars as well as whats expected in the future makes since. I agree with having the current number of F22s. As a prior infantry ground pounder — canceling the Future Combat Systems was a good idea as well.

Charles D Phillips, LtCol, USAF (Ret),

The last 60 F-22 cost an average of $140 million flyaway but a significant number more would bring the price down to $120. The F-15E cost ~90 million each, you can not even get a bare F-15 airframe for $35 million. Even new F-16s cost $40–60 million depending on what block & what systems you are buying.

And stop the ‘unafordability’ BS. Aside from misrepresenting the cost of the F-22 vs other airfcraft, even at $140 million each, 20 F-22s per year is <$3 billion dollars. That is <0.0965% of the 2008 US budget, <0.582% of the 2008 US defense budget & <2.085% of the 2008 USAF budget.

And is it not strange how there is no money for more F-22s but Gate sure will try & find money for ~150 more F-35s over the next 6 years. Funny how the cost of those ~150 F-35s is so close to what ~120 F-22s would cost during the same time…

pfcem — that true that the 150 F35s will cost almost the equivelant of 120 F22s?

Why do we need 120 more F22s from AF perspective?

soonergrunt: brilliant.amazing comment.

Pfcem,

First, you continually ignore that comparing costs of unavoidable low rate initial production F-35s in current/future inflated dollars to costs of the final full rate production F-22s in 2000-era dollars is wholly inaccurate. There would be no $140 million F-22 in today’s budgets even if full production was continuing. There was once a plan proposed to buy 7 for $1.75 billion ($250,000 each) so fail to see how you think you could buy 21 for $2.94 billion…the closest I can get to your $3 billion claim at $140 million each.

Second, the reason we need F-35s is to modernize the aircraft of three services…not just the USAF. In addition, current and projected conflicts require integrated stealthy EO/IR air-to-ground capability to distinguish between military targets and civilians in urban and complex terrain. The F-35 will excel at that while retaining stealth while the F-22 will need a future external pod or must settle for lesser resolution SAR images.

Finally, the recent RAND Taiwan study updated with information extrapolated from US Naval Institute illustrates why there is an ample air and seapower “umbrella” to handle even the worst case China scenario with just a single carrier group and smaller Marine carrier, our current F-22s, plus 1/3 of Taiwan’s overall airpower and all its air defenses:

Day 1: 100 Taiwan AF x .6 kills = 60 kills to 30 losses
Day 2: 70 Taiwan AF x .6 kills = 42 kills to 21 losses
Day 3: 49 Taiwan AF x .6 kill = 29 kills to 15 losses
Day 4: 34 Taiwan AF x .6 kill = 20 kills to 10 losses
Taiwan Patriot and other SAMs = 70 Day 1 kills (and RAND assumed all Taiwan SAMs are lost after Day 1 which we couldn’t accomplish against the Serbs in 78 days)

Total Taiwan kills over 4 days = 151 kills to 76 losses, or a 2:1 aircraft exchange ratio against J-8s, etc. plus another 70 SAM kills for a total of 221 PLAAF losses.

What this analysis does not show is that Taiwan has well over 300 quality fighters, but RAND limited them to 100 sorties on Day 1 due to TBM airfield attacks. Clearly, SAM upgrades and other aircraft in shelters and underground could replace lost aircraft so that Day 2–4 sorties might return to 100 sorties even given runway repair constraints.

Now turn to RAND’s estimate of only 20 F-22 sorties. That is an excessivley low value given that 120 deployable F-22s could be available at multiple airfields in Hawaii, Guam, Alaska, and perhaps the Philippines and Australia. However, staying with that figure to play devil’s advocate, but replacing any F-22 losses, and using the remaining F-22 sorties for bombing PLAAF airfields yields:

Day 1: 20 F-22 sorties x 2 kills = 40 kills to 1 loss
Day 2: 20 F-22 sorties x 2 kills = 40 kills to 1 loss
Day 3: 20 F-22 sorties x 2 kills = 40 kills to 1 loss
Day 4: 20 F-22 sorties x 2 kills = 40 kills to 1 loss
Total F-22 kills over 4 days = 160 kills to 4 losses or 40:1 exchange ratio

This pessimistic 40:1 exchange ratio is against mostly Su-30s/Su-27/J-11/J-10, while it would be far higher against J-8s and H-6s. This also assumes that with 120 deployable F-22s that at least 20 per day would fly the air-to-air CAP to replace losses with the remainder escorting B-2s at night to attack mainland China airfields.

Given the B-2 bombing mission, you might expect as few as four B-2 attacks per night could result in as many as 320 airfield targets attacked with small diameter bombs (SDB). If that resulted in as few as 2 in 4 B-2 SDBs finding aircraft targets, and remaining SDBs cratering runways and hitting fuel/ammo/maintenance targets, you can imagine the reduction in daily PLAAF sorties and overall aircraft inventory.

Now look at the coming inventory of Naval F-35s added to still capable F/A-18E/F and EA-18G a few years from now. Consider just ONE large carrier and one smaller Marine carrier, with each flying around 2 sorties of available aircraft each day:
———————————————
Day 1: 54 F/A-18E/F and EA-18G x .8 kill = 43 kills to 10 losses
Day 1: 40 F-35C x 1.5 kills = 60 kills to 4 losses
Day 1: 32 F-35B x 1.5 kills = 48 kills to 3 losses
———————————————
Day 2: 44 F/A-18E/F and EA-18G x .8 kill = 38 kills to 8 losses
Day 2: 36 F-35C x 1.5 kills = 54 kills to 4 losses
Day 2: 29 F-35B x 1.5 kills = 44 kills to 3 losses
——————————————–
Day 3: 36 F/A-18E/F and EA-18G x .8 kill = 30 kills to 6 losses
Day 3: 32 F-35C x 1.5 kills = 48 kills to 3 losses
Day 3: 26 F-35B X 1.5 kills = 39 kills to 3 losses
——————————————–
Day 4: 30 F/A-18E/F and EA-18G x .8 kill = 24 kills to 5 losses
Day 4: 29 F-35C x 1.5 kills = 44 kills to 3 losses
Day 4: 23 F-35B x 1.5 kills = 35 kills to 2 losses
——————————————–
Total F/A-18E/F and EA-18G over 4 days = 135 kills to 29 losses 4.6:1 exchange ratio
——————————————–
Total F-35B and C over 4 days = 372 kills to 25 losses or 14.9:1 exchange ratio
——————————————–
Adding these figure to Taiwan aircraft and U.S. F-22 kills yields:

311 Taiwan fighter and U.S. F-22 kills + 507 F/A-18E/F, EA-18G, F-35B, and F-35C kills = 818 kills
+
70 Taiwan SAM kills
+
At least 70 Aegis SM-2 kills
+
160 B-2/F-22 bombing kills

The above total of 1,118 kills surpasses the entire PLAAF and PLAN aircraft inventory in just 4 days. Modification of the RAND study results, the US Naval Institute link below, and other online predictions of the future F/A-18E/F/EA-18G/F-35C mix led to the above estimates.

http://​blog​.usni​.org/​?​m​=​2​0​0​908

This link predicts capabilities to fly 120 sorties of F/A-18E/F, EA-18G, F-35C per 12 hour flight day. The above sorties were reduced to 94 sorties for day 1 to more closely align with the recent RAND study prediction and to account for mission capability rates.

Given the total F-35C and F/A-18E/F numbers available, others could be flown in from CONUS and Hawaii to replace any lost aircraft to retain Day 1 sortie quantities over all 4 days.

With 2 CVNs operating together, naval fighter daily sorties increase to 188 and PLAAF losses theoretically could be over 1,000 in 4 days from naval fighters alone!! A two-carrier team is the norm according to the US Naval Institute link above.

These sortie estimates are based on carriers being 200 NM east of Taiwan. Greater standoff for protection against future Anti-ship Ballistic Missiles would allow 2 carriers flying one daily sortie with aerial refueling 400 NM or more from Taiwan to match 1 carrier flying two sorties closer to Taiwan.

The same link predicts that smaller Marine carriers would fly 16 mission capable F-35B (out of 20) x 2 sorties per day = 32 sorties slightly closer to Taiwan or from land bases.

Given these realistic figures, can someone please explain how we fail to meet our “umbrella” coverage requirements with the future force, even if we reduce it to 9 carrier groups? Remember that this estimate is with ONE CARRIER, while perhaps 4 would be sailing at any given time with one in dry dock, and two large carriers would be in the Pacific early in any surprise attack scenario.

Even in OIF, we only had 5 carrier groups on station, so can anyone comprehend how 8 of 9 large carriers is not up to task in a worst case surge?

In addition, the Navy is more likely to be able to fully man 9 carrier groups than the current 11. And at some timeframe down the line, the Navy is likely to field UCAV to further improve carrier-based capability, while USAF F-35A will also be added to the mix much sooner.

Alarmists need to quit predicting falling skies and continue improving counter-TBM capability with proven, still-funded systems like SM-3, Patriot, and THAAD to support the highly capable fighter force we already are planning.

Just as an aside to Mr. Wynne, when he says:
“Secretary Clinton underscored the necessity that ‘America will extend its umbrella of Defense to protect its allies”, she was referring to the concept of extended deterrence for the Middle East. Not exactly the same as massive fleets of F-22s patrolling allied skies, especially if the allies can’t afford to buy them.

@soonergrunt

Dead on comments. This is about demanding that we get not just good weapon systems, but cost effective weapon systems. The system is certainly broken and I commend president Obama and SECDEF Gates for starting the hard work that every president since Eisenhower has ignored: controlling the costs of defense, and not defaulting to the argument that every weapon system that doesn’t get produced hurts our chances of survival.

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

PS– Editors, I really do believe it would make this great blog a bit easier to read if you installed an acronym tab for those of us who don’t speak policy wonkish like you guys do. Hope you take the suggestion in good humor because I meant it to help, not to deconstruct.

May I offer two thoughts: first we really should have a separate discussion of the actual cost of aircraft (and other systems). What is the actual cost of an F-22? The one firm number that I would always begin with is the one on the official Air Force fact sheet — they say $142 million. The official fact sheet for the F-15E says $31.1 million. Now that probably is actually for airframes only, etc. Of course you could not go to St Louis and fly off with an F-15E by writing a check for $31.1 million! But it gives us a authoritative basis to compare. Based on that I would say that the F-22 is about 5 times as expensive as the F-15E.
Ok, so is each F-22 five times as effective as each F-15E? My contention is that we are safer with four F-15Es distributed around the world — with eight people looking out the windows. If cost is no object — then why not add some more capabilities to the F-22? Why not enlarge it so that is has a WSO — twice as many eyes on the sky, safer, etc. Well if we did that the darn thing would be 200 million a copy! We have been approaching the number at which aircraft are unaffordable — and that number has been exceeded. And so what it is some percentage of the US budget — for 2008. What percentage of the budget for 2007 was it? 2006? The 2008 budget had a 400 billion dollar deficit but we now have a 1.8 trillion dollar deficit!
My second point is that the F-22 is being cut today NOT in favor of the F-35!! That cut will be made after the F-22 line is shut down. The F-22 is being cut because it is too expensive. Probably if we could buy an F-22 for $50 million (deleting un-necessary stealth) we would still be buying them.
Sorry the response is so long. BTW there is no fact sheet on the F-35 but news reports have it costing $44 million a copy.

Another discussion we could have is the effectiveness of missile defense. I said:

“And missile defense is really at a research and development stage…”

And Density replied:

“Ah-heh. THAAD? SM-3? PAC-3? These are not low-time, low-maturity R&D programs.”

We are not sure exactly what Sec Wynne meant by missile defense — but the operational missile defense (currenly installed in Alaska) could have been the subject. As a guy who has worked in the space biz since 1978 (has it been that long??) my opinion is that anti-ICBM defense is at the R&D stage. There have been limited tests and limited success. The Navy shootdown of the runaway NRO satellite was nothing like the response needed to intercept an incoming ICBM warhead. That system is no where near mature enough to deploy — in spite of the fact that we have already deployed it! And now that it is a fact, even the anti-defense Obama administration is not willing to take the heat to un-deploy it.

I found out why the AF quotes $31.3 million for an F-15E and pfcem quotes $90 million. He includes the cost of the DVD player for the WSO! That way the WSO can watch “Top Gun” on the way to the target.
Just kidding, you gotta have a sense of humor in this biz.

Pfcem probably mixed up the F-15e with the F-15se which costs around 100 mill.

nope a brand new F-15K costs 110 million dollars.…Singapore paid about the same. True cost for the F-22 is actually estimated to be up to 350 million dollar a piece (fancy accounting has the price lower…just a gimmick).…so the estimated 150 mill for an F-35 is a bargain for what you’re getting. plus with high rate production the price will drop faster than a questionable woman’s reputation ( i guess i should say man’s too to be politically correct)…Gates is chopping budget and if the F-35 wasn’t thrifty it would die too.

not an authoritarian source but wiki has info on price…
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​F​-​1​5​E​_​S​t​r​i​k​e​_​E​a​gle

Charles Phillips:
“As a guy who has worked in the space biz since 1978 (has it been that long??) my opinion is that anti-ICBM defense is at the R&D stage.”

As a guy who’s worked on actual missile defense programs, and has regular contact with people who still do (they’re in the building next door), my opinion is that it’s doing just fine and is entirely operational.

150 million (est)for an F-35 is far from certain given that the aircraft is still undergoing testing. My guess is prices will probably go up given that its production process is very similar to the F-22s. Tranche 3 has also shown that despite commitments towards purchases by members, it is in no way guaranteed they will buy F-35 in the quantities projected.

Again, we could talk (and people do) all day about the actual cost of an airframe/ship/vehicle. The South Koreans just paid (Apr 08) 2.3 billion for only 21 jets — but what was the cost per airframe, cost for spares, maintenance, etc etc??? Using that number, the F-15K would cost about a billion dollars a copy! At that rate,an F-22 would be cheap.

What we’re really talking about here is saving lives pilot lives AF and Navy lives in our next foreseeable encounter. Not in the way you guy’s throw dollar $$ signs around to control cost? What’s the $$ amount for one AF or Navy airmen’s life.
Your “RAND Taiwan study” proves that flying F-22’s into battle the first 4 day war we loose a total of 4 airmen not just 4 F-22’s but 4 AF airmen dead vs. flying your so call navy’s new inventory of F-35s plus not so capable F/A-18E/F and EA-18G and now we exponentially jumps to over 50+ Navy airmen dead.
Now you don’t have to be an Einstein to figure out that our F-22 numbers (187) are minimal at best since your study states “Taiwan has well over 300 quality fighters” and “and other aircraft in shelters and underground could be replaced” needs to be increased upwards of 200+ for the AF plus a navy version of 300+ F-22N’s and yes the Navy version would be high dollars too.
Now run your RAND scenario with a mix of F-22’s AF and Navy and let’s see how many airmen we can expend or save with the air dominant F-22’s. You guy’s talk about controlling cost in this administration how is it that you over look the more important aspect saving lives.

dbk : you can’t waste billions of dollars in hypothetical “scenarios”.The f-22 is a 20 years old tech,even if it is the best fighter in the world.

The USAF needs more F-22s despite what politicians and Gates think. At roughly $140 million (2008 dollars) per aircraft the advantages in performance far outweigh the extra cost. Consider a F-15K (upgraded F-15E) costs nearly $100 million!

The F-35A will (hopefully) cost $80 million per copy in “then-year” dollars. Yet the program has been encountering plenty of problems lately.

More F-22s for the USAF makes perfect sense, and the Navy should have their own “high-end” counterpart to the F-35C. The F-22 could not be easily adapted to this role however, considering how the F-22 based NATF concept was a variable-sweep wing design.

We should put that money we supposedly saved from cutting some of these missile defense programs towards this cause.

The F-22A is not 20 year old tech. The first YF-22 and YF-23 prototypes flew in late 1990, yet that does not mean the actual F-22A that entered service in 2005 is the same aircraft. Back then those prototypes did not include the APG-77 radar and most of the important systems of the production F-22. The airframe of the production aircraft is even somewhat different from that of the YF-22.

It is true the F-22A does not feature some of the newer systems of the F-35 like EOTS and DAS. Yet a new production variant of the Raptor, lets call it the F-22C, (F-22B was the canceled two seater) could include these and other improvements. This would grant an improved ground attack capability among other things.

Cole,

No I am quoting the average cost of the last 60 F-22 — that is FY2007, FY2008 & FY2009, not 2000! And comparing likely cost of 120 more F-22 for FY2010-2015 vs the cost of the ~150 accellerated LRIP F-35s.

Clearly you have no clue whatsoever how procurement costs work. Most importantly how procuring fewer numbers significantly increases the cost of each unit procured.

You are correct however that if ‘full rate’ F-22 were continueing they would not be $140 million each, they woulr be LESS than $140 million each.

I am not saying that we do not need the F-35. WE DO! But we also need more F-22s. We do NOT need to accellerate F-35 LRIP, those ~150 F-35s will cost LESS later AND the money spent on them would be better spent procuring 120 additiional F-22.

Stop the BS, the number of F-22s needed is NOT based any any one scenario! It is based on the number of F-22s the USAF needs just to do its job day to day.

***

Don’t be fooled by those so called ‘fact sheets’. Check budget documents & foreign sales for actual cost. The F-15E NEVER cost anywhere near $31 million. They were significantly more than that even back in the 1990’s. F-15Cs in the 1980’s however…

The F-22 is NOT being cut because it is too expensive. I already put the numbers into perspective to prove that. And if it wasn’t being cut it would be costing even LESS that it has been. The F-22 never even reached full rate production for Gods sake!

***

Drake1,

No I did not mix up the F-15E with the F-15SE.

***

solomon,

No, flyaway cost of the last 60 F-22s was $140 million average. The $350 million BS is per unit TOTAL PROGRAM COST. A number artifically high with the number of aircraft being so low. I DARE you to take even a wild guess as to the per unit TOTAL PROGRAM COST of the F-15, F-16 &/or F/A-18 at just ~200 aircraft…

The f-22 is going to be replaced for something like this.
http://​www​.youtube​.com/​w​a​t​c​h​?​v​=​A​-​f​2​O​f​X​u​6js
You can see the similarity with the canceled X-44 manta .And the company is the same one that make the f-22/f-35.
Btw,this project could be manned/unmanned.

Alex doesn’t seem to realize that one reason the US military budget is tight is because of Bush/Cheney’s moronic war in Iraq, one which we clearly did not have to fight and which only benefits Iran, our main enemy in the region. It is the costs from this was which have devastated the military’s equipment procurement budget. You can thank the neocon Republicans for the current state of the procurement budget, not Obama.

You should be thankful Bush was pushed out when he was.

Cole,
Quoting a RAND study?? LOL! Was that a classified study? Without the classified stuff, such “analysis” is useless.
Most amateur military campaign analysis is amusing if you are making an entertainment piece but of little value in making cogent arguments on weapons acquisition…witness the assertion that one carrier and some Marines is enough sufficient against a serious PRC offense. Nicely written input but fatally flawed analysis due to lack of “real” data

PFCEM, marketing BS. you can play accounting games but the same death spiral that struck the B-2 hit the F-22. The F-35 will be saved because it is being produced in numbers. Sad but true. Deal with it. oh and the F-15K went out the door at 100mil. The real cost of the F-22…350mil…again…deal. IF the F-22 could be had cheaply do you really think it would have been cut…as ELP says…spin and sophistry.

dbk, believe you are missing several key points:

1) USAF, Navy, or Marine fighter pilots lives are not worth any more than Soldier/Marine lives. Are we suggesting diverting still more funds to save 15 additional pilot lives when the same funding might prevent 150 ground KIA? Which type of casualty is more likely to occur? Because the F-22 is inferior to the F-35 in air-to-ground, will that create more ground casualties? The Vietnam wall has 2587 USAF names on it compared to 38,218 Soldiers. Shall we perform similar OIF/OEF counts? Korea? In addition, suspect that ejection seats coupled with HH-60 aboard Navy ships and future CSAR (or at least ISR) UAS will be quite capable of rescuing downed pilots from the Pacific. Not so sure about the Chinese rescue capability…and they would need it.

2) Speaking of the Chinese, if you publish facts/figures that make it clear that adversaries cannot prevail if they test you in the air and in a Taiwan invasion…that test probably will never occur because the perceived gains will be deemed unworthy of the risk. If instead, you finance flawed studies slanted to presuppose that we are not up to task…and the threat reads them and miscalculates, then real world casualties COULD occur both in the air and during the amphibious assault of Taiwan and follow-on battles once allied forces are on hand to rectify the situation with our allied and Joint QUALITY AND QUANTITY.

3) No need for more F-22s or an impossible F-22N. After all, we created this multi-role (like the Russians and Chinese) stealth aircraft (unlike the Russian and Chinese) called the F-35. It carries 4 AMRAAM in the stealth configuration, has superb AESA radar, helmet mounted displays, future jamming capabilities, and DAS infrared search and track. If we add 32–64 F-35A in addition to the original 20 USAF F-22, it quite probably adds an additional 48–96 lost enemy aircraft PER DAY with a constant stream of F-35A replacements arriving to places like Australia and Japan where the infrastructure for servicing/maintaining would already be on hand and dispersed with allies. Four days x 48 kills = 192 enemy losses. Four days x 96 kills = 384 enemy losses. Sounds like the 4-day air war may have turned into a 3-day air war.

4) Finally, given 120 deployable F-22s and 84 operational ones (70% OR), you could easily field CAPs of 4 F-22s each taking off every 160 minutes from Guam to fly to Taiwan with several aerial refueling orbits en route, remaining on station 160–180 minutes and then returning to Guam…providing 9 continuous, somewhat overlapping 3 hour CAPs of 4 aircraft each carrying 32 AMRAAM. Place 12 more F-22s on Zulu alert at other closer disguised Japanese locations to respond in appropriate numbers at supercruise to surges in threat fighter/bomber activity. The result is 28 more daily CAP aircraft than the RAND projection because we were smart enough not to start out within TBM range. An additional 28 F-22s x 2 kills x 4 days = 224 additional kills with maybe 6 losses on top of the 160 F-22 kills already projected. Sounds like the 4-day air war, that turned into a 3-day air war with F-35A, just became closer to a 2-day air war…especially if you continue to field still more F-35A into theater and use the F-22 properly.

5) Have we talked about Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM) yet, or regular Naval/USAF cruise missiles? Air launched decoys? Don’t forget our jamming and AWACS advantages. Training!!!! How about Japanese fighters if some TBM target them? Suspect that would irritate them. Would they sit passively by? South Korea? Australia? Its good to have friends flying the same advanced planes.

TGIF…unless you are a Soldier/Marine who never gets a day off and is frequently deployed and under fire.

pfcem, you don’t get it. Previous Congressional plans to buy 7 F-22s for $1.75 billion ($250 million each) cannot be fully explained by economies of scale. Are you are saying we could buy another 13 F-22s for $1.25 billion to reach your $3 billion dream figure for 20?

Normally, I’m not fond of Winslow Wheeler’s advice but he may be onto something here:

“What Does an F-22 Cost” (Winslow Wheeler) 2009 excerpt

“So, where does the bogus $143 million per copy come from? Most will recognize that as the “flyaway” cost: the amount we pay today, just for the current production costs of an F-22. (Note, however, the “flyaway” cost does not include the gas, pilot, et cetera needed to fly the aircraft away.)

Advocates of buying more F-22s assert they can be had for this “bargain basement” $143 price in their lobbying — now rather intense — to buy more F-22s above and beyond the 184 currently contracted for. That is, they argue, the “cost to go” for buying new models, which do not require a calculation to amortize the early R&D and other initially high production costs across the fleet. It’s what we’re paying now for F-22s in annual appropriations bills. Right?

Hopefully, it will neither surprise nor offend you to say that assertion is pure bovine scatology.

Congressional appropriations bills and their accompanying reports are not user-friendly documents, but having wadded through them for the past 30 years, I know their hiding holes. The F-22 program has many. Let’s check through the 2009 congressional appropriations for the F-22. Most — but not all — of the required information is contained in HR 2638.

In the “Joint Explanatory Statement” accompanying the bill, the House and Senate appropriators specified that $2.907 billion was to be appropriated for 20 F-22s in 2009. The math comes to just about what the Air Force said, $145 million per copy. So, what’s the problem?

There’s more; plenty more. Flipping down to the section on “modification of aircraft” we find another $327 million for the F-22 program.

Switching over to the Research and Development section, we find another $607 million for the F-22 under the title “Operational System Development.”

Some will further know it is typical for DOD to provide “advance procurement” money in previous appropriations bills to support the subsequent year’s purchase of major equipment. In the case of the 2009 buy of 20 F-22’s, the previous 2008 appropriations bill provided “advance procurement” for “long lead” items needed to be purchased in advance to enable the 2009 buy. The amount provided was $427 million.

Here’s the arithmetic: $2.907 + $.327 + $.607 + $.427 = $4.268 billion for 20 aircraft. That’s $213 million each.

Please do not think these data represent an exceptional year. If you check any of the last few annual buys of F-22s, you will find the same pattern: in addition to the annual “procurement” amount, there is additional “modification,” “operational system development,” and advance procurement.

F-22s are costing these days a little over $200 million each. Period.

Well, actually, there’s more. Last November, Acquisition Czar John Young told the press that the first 100 F-22’s built need an additional $8 billion in R&D and procurement costs to bring them all up to their originally mandated requirements. Ergo, the total program unit cost is not $350 million each, it’s $394 million, assuming Young is correct. The annual purchase, “cost to go” (“flyaway”), price will also go up, but just how much is not calculable right now.”

Cole…your 28 Aug posting.…LOL..your grasp of air employment would qualify you as a contestant in the old Ted Mack Amateur hour.
Does stopping the F22 buy create a “hole in the US Defense Umbrella”? I hope not but the answer is “unknowable”

Cole, how do you know that the $1.75 billion ONLY included costs for seven more F-22s? It could have included costs for foolishly shutting down the production line, or upgrades for the F-22A fleet. You also shouldn’t factor money going to upgrades into “per-unit” costs. The F-15C has received plenty of upgrades over the years, as have all of different F-16 Blocks. Older F-35s will certainly be upgraded too as time goes on.

Cole it is well known that John Young was a major opponent of the F-22 while promoting other projects like the DDG-1000. I wouldn’t trust his judgment.

The F-35 is around to supplement the F-22, just as the F-16 supplemented the F-15. It is not supposed to replace F-22s. In your assessment of the F-35 you failed to note that when compared to the F-22 it is not as stealthy, not as agile, not as fast, can’t supercruise, and carries less missiles internally. The fact that initial F-35s can only carry four AIM-120s internally is major drawback. Without the AIM-9X for close combat it isn’t going to last long against aircraft with thrust vectoring and advanced short range missiles. Four AIM-120s doesn’t necessarily equal four kills either.

We still need a relatively low cost, 5th generation, single engined fighter to support the F-22. The F-35 can provide that, however the design could have been a better one and we don’t know how successful the program will be.

The USAF wants more F-22s and determined that 380 or so was the requirement. Yet not even that would have replaced all of the air-superiority Eagles according to their studies. The F-35 is not as capable as the F-22. And I know for damn sure that the USAF leadership who wants more F-22s is a better judge than some politicians. We should get enough F-22s to eventually fully replace the F-15A-D fleet, end of story.

As far as a “F-22N” goes. The changes needed to allow carrier operations would virtually result in a new aircraft. Take a look at the NATF and A/F-X concepts, both of which were related to the F-22 in some form. Very different aircraft.

I am not saying the Navy doesn’t need a “high-end” fighter to complement the F-35C. Indeed that fighter could share some components of the F-22. Yet it isn’t as simple as slapping some canards on a Raptor or something like that.

Cole is right.…for the cost of one F-22 you can practically equip a Army Brigade Combat Team or a Marine Expeditionary Unit (definitely the 782 gear which could be the best on the market instead of middling foot gear, vest which weigh a ton. a modified weapon which has been in service since vietnam, cumbersome helmets when higher tech versions are on the market etc…). Oh and I believe another Grunt died today.…when was the last aerial casualty of this war? Seems like in this day, at this time its better to focus on the ground forces.

Solomon…appears you and Cole fail to grasp the essentials of Defense procurement. We buy capability in form of weapons to defend our country and protect our vital national interest…your “aerial casualty” remark is not only off the point and only conveys emotion…our defense relies on an array of capabilities…if we slight the air & naval capabilities in favor of buying more ground capability then we are less secure…not vice versa

solomon,

YOU are the one falling for marketing BS. It is NOT that difficult to got to gpoaccess​.gov & get a PDF file of the Federal budget & see the numbers for yourself. Budget going back to 1997 are available online. There are also other budget documents where you can get the numbers as well. There is no accounting game, just the amount paid each FY vs the number procured each FY.

Who said anything about getting the F-22 cheaply? But the FACT is it is NOT that expensive & the more of they we buy the LESS expesive they get.

***

Cole,

No it it YOU who are missing several key points.

1). In a fighting war those Soldier/Marine lives lives are very much dependant on those USAF, Navy, or Marine fighter pilots. Lose the war in the air & the war on the ground is all but guarateed to be lost as well. Just imagine what Soldier/Marine losses would be if THERY were the one subjected to the power of enemy air forces…

NOBODY suggesting diverting a dime from grounds forces to ANYTHING else. But idiots like YOU are suggesting the opposite.

Educate yourself as to the relative roles or each branch of the armed forces & the systems within each branch. NOBODY is suggesting the F-22 should take over the F-35s roles. But idiots like you are ignorantly claiming that the F-35 can take over for the F-22 when (aside for the comparative lack of capability) we will be lucky to get enough F-35s quickly enough to do what the F-35 IS supposed to do much less what the F-22 is supposed to do ADS WELL.

2. Stop the BS. The size of the US Armed Forces is NOT based on fighting China!

3. Again, educate yourself.

4. Good God man, the F-22 is supposed to replace the F-15. The entire F-22/F-15 forces would NEVER be sent to just one conflict. The USAF has many responsibilities all over the world in which they are needed for

5. Again, educate yourself.

And it is YOU who do not get it. If you wich to be even remotely intellectually honest you MUCH compare ‘apples-to-apples’. That means that if you are going to make an agrument as to how much something cost them compare it to the SAME cost vs other.

I especially love your BS cost claculation which not only include doubling up costs which are already included in the yearly cost AND adds up cost meant for the entire fleet (or previously procured aircraft) plus other costs which have NOTHING to do with the procurement cost of the F-22. But aside from it being incorrect in the 1st place how about doing a similarly incorrect assesment of the cost of the F-15, F-16 or F/A-18…

ALl
“Some are beginning to see the impact of the change, though others see a huge victory over the beleaguered defense Industry. It certainly looks like a full blown recession for engineering talent looms in this vital industry, with layoffs from coast to coast and border to border“
bt
The end result is exactly what the Code Pinks, ACLU, SEIU and CPUSA folks want for the USA>
IE: Demise of the USA systems of defense, GNP = zero and a Socialistic OBNA control.
We are well on the way, and this is symptomatic of their tactics for the Demise Movement.
bt
A simple read of the various agendas as listed on their web sites offers proof.
end

ALI–You need to get your medication changed, because it is clearly not working. We look forward to the day when you can join the rest of us out here in the real world.

That should be tenn slim.

pfcem said:

“1) In a fighting war those Soldier/Marine lives lives are very much dependant on those USAF, Navy, or Marine fighter pilots. Lose the war in the air & the war on the ground is all but guaranteed to be lost as well. Just imagine what Soldier/Marine losses would be if THEY were the one subjected to the power of enemy air forces…“
==================================
You haven’t been paying attention.

I just outlined realistic exchange ratios, realistic sortie numbers, and realistic USAF airpower numbers that illustrate that there is no way on earth that we do not possess sufficient airpower for any future conflict.

Only two nations have a ghost of a chance of downing even a single USAF, Navy, or Marine fighter in air-to-air combat. Their losses would be far greater and they know it. Their airpower would be gone in days and primary air defenses gone in weeks.

The greater need to protect the U.S. ground component in any conceivable conflict is air-to-ground, not air-to-air.

The whole question can be reduced to: do you want to have the best (air superiority) fighter in the world when you go to war or do you want to buy extra bodybags. Ask any soldier’s Mom.

pfcem said:

“2. Stop the BS. The size of the US Armed Forces is NOT based on fighting China!“
===================================
Pray tell me what other scenario could possibly need more than 186 F-22s and 1763 F-35A then? Why do we even need that number of F-35A when more MQ-X and bombers would do so we could buy fewer tankers and more C-17s?

3. Again, educate yourself.

4. Good God man, the F-22 is supposed to replace the F-15. The entire F-22/F-15 forces would NEVER be sent to just one conflict. The USAF has many responsibilities all over the world in which they are needed for

5. Again, educate yourself.
=====================================
Redundant answers without addressing the cited issues is the mark of a man without an answer.

Number 3 dealt with F-35A which weren’t even addressed in the modified RAND scenario that I offered. Obviously they would be a major airpower addition if we could find a location closer to Taiwan that was safe from TBM and supportable logistically.

Please explain why F-35A is irrelevant to protecting Taiwan? In number 5, please explain why other U.S and allied advantages are irrelevant to defending Taiwan and other far east allies?

Bottom line: You have no answer because those issues are factually correct.

As for number 4, the 750 F-15s procured to battle a Soviet threat do not need to be replaced on a one-for-one or even one-for-two basis. Today’s air-to-air threats simply pale in comparison to the Soviet threat…and you know it.

As for not sending all available F-22s to battle China, first I showed you that even 20 F-22s could be sufficient to eliminate the PLAAF in a matter of days if we were dumb enough to use that few daily F-22 sorties.

Second, even if we sent every F-22 available to the Pacific, our and allied thousands of F-35A would still be in reserve for any other sudden conflict elsewhere…that obviously would not match the Chinese threat.

In addition, since it would only require a matter of days to dispose of the PLAAF aerial assets and the SAM threat could be more deliberate, some F-22s could quickly redeploy to another conflict to finish off whatever the F-35A were not up to…which isn’t much.

Cole,

YOU are not paying attention. Without air-superiority (F-22s), air-to-ground is being done by the enemy on YOU rather than by you on them.

Again, stop the BS about any one single conflict. It doesn’t work that way & is NOT what the US Armed Forces structure is based on. Just because you are engaged in a conflict (big or small, low-intensity or high-intensity) does NOT mean your day-to-day PEACETIME resposibilities go away.

What on earth is Pakistan doing with missiles? And we’re worried about the non-cost of the F-35?

Mr. Wynne, Japan has F-15s not F-16s. This was not mis-speak since this is your written article. An error which shows your limits. Then quoting a “rumor”?

I wish everyone would stay off their Cold war crack pipes and read about the world so they don’t continue to pretend China may attack Taiwan.

Did someone say we would eventually have 1700+ F-35As? I’ll be surprised if we end up procuring even 500.

I like keeping current. I try to whenever I have time. The one thing that I rarely see is the Russian threat to the United States. Obama went to Russia and met with their president and Putin. He said basically to Putin get over yourself the cold war is over. After that comment there have been tests to just how little the cold war is over. After that comment Russia launched 2 ICBM from the North Pole without the US knowing till they were in the air. Then we had two Russian subs patrolling in international waters off our east coast. So in looking at the Russian forces. I found that they have come a long way and they really are pushing hard to come further.
There is an article I read that they are making 6 attack subs that only purpose in life is to sink an aircraft carrier. They are armed with nuke war heads. So they will not even have to get close to fire. Just so happens we have 5 active carriers and one being built. Losing 6 aircraft carriers would be a huge ham string to the us navy and air force.
Then there is the new T90 tank it’s a tossup on what is better T90 or the M1 Abrams. This is not a subject I want to talk about because Russians will say there are the best and US will say they are.
The new attack helicopter sku-25 will beat an apache helo. Again I am not going to comment.
The Claim that they can detect our stealth fighters or bombers. That is the edge we have is it lost?
Russia is building more accurate ICBM’s we are consolidating our forces to what is now called super bases. You take out these super bases and what do you have left? Not a whole hell of a lot.
A strike on our 6 aircraft carriers. An ICBM launch ageist our air bases and our ground forces would be slaughtered. Today’s wars are fought from the air own the air own the battle field.
What is the president of the united states done spent tons of money on socialist programs and has not cut the military as bad a Clinton, but that moron did enough damage. Am I right or wrong?

Sure we can afford billions of dollars for more aircraft when we’re 10 trillion in the hole and growing quickly. Are you absolutely insane? This country is going downhill so fast we don’t need to worry about some other country over running us. We’re digging ourselves a hole that we won’t be able to get out of eventually. The last thing we need to worry about is building another 100 F-22’s. Social Security, our rising deficits, possibly going to have to raise taxes to bail us out of this mess. Get a clue you ignorant fool we don’t need more aircraft that we can’t afford. You only purchase extra luxuries when you’re in the black, not 10 trillion in the hole and rising fast.

grumpy:
Only the Challenger and the Leopard 2 could be match to the Abrams.
su-25 is not a attack helicopter.
They claim that they can detect our stealth fighters ‚they lie.
they have problems with their new ICBM(bulava)
No country in the world is near our military capabilities .
You are right that we cannot lose our edge,but wrong in the kind of weapons.

John WIlliams,

Get a clue. At $140 million each (again, IF we were to buy a significant number more they would actually cost LESS), 20 F-22s per year is <$3 billion dollars. That is <0.0965% of the 2008 US budget, <0.582% of the 2008 US defense budget & 200 F-22s. Or what about the $25 billion auto indusry bailout which did NOT prevent GM &/or Chrysler to declaring bankruptcy… Don’t get me started on the $700 billion NON-stimulus bill. There are COUNTLESS examples of things that money is being thrown at with ZERO understading as to if it will actually have the desired (err..claimed) effect.

But of course the real kicker is that Gates (while claiming there is no money for F-22s) plans to use the money not procuring additional F-22s to accelerate F-35 LRIP. Basically he is ‘replacing’ ~120 additional F-22s with ~150 F-35s that would cost significanlty less if they were procured (as previously planned) during full rate production.

Meanwhile it is only a matter of time before another accident grounds the entire F-15 fleet AGAIN with less than 200 F-22s to do the jobs that require 500+ air-superiority aircraft to do.

With all this billions of dollars spent on defense and offense equipment. Perhaps we should also consider diplomacy and faith in Jesus Christ. It will not cost us a single dollar and will not have to fire a single bullet if everyone is at peace.

Roland,
Appreciate your sentiment but there are billions of people on the planet that do not believe in JC. Diplomacy only works when supported by resolve and a formidable defense…that’s the reality.

elgatoso:

Sorry I was mistaken i was talking about the su-25 I was talking about KA-50/KA-52. I hope they lie about being able to detect our planes. Thank you for your info.

The Russians can’t even detect their own planes.

the ka-50/52 look really formidable​.In a Turkish design competition for a $4 billion contract for 50 helo The Ka-50–2 Erdogan beat the Eurocopter Tiger, AH-64 Apache and A-129 Mangusta helicopters.The problem is it was — uniquely among gunships — to be operated by a single pilot only .the question was if a single pilot can carry out the entire mission alone​.It is still an unanswered question if the pilot would suffer from excess fatigue from this combined workload.Like other Kamov helicopters, the ka-50 features Kamov’s contra-rotating co-axial rotor system, which removes the need for the tail-rotor and improves the aircraft’s aerobatic qualities — it can perform loops, rolls, and circle-strafing where the aircraft maintains a line-of-sight to the target while flying circles. Using two rotors means that a smaller rotor with slower-moving rotor tips can be used compared to a single rotor design. Since the speed of the advancing rotor tip is a limitation to the speed of a helicopter, this allows a maximum speed than helicopters such as the AH-64.

Cole I don’t know if you are trying to defend everything the Obama admin does when it comes to defense, but for God’s sake stop for one second.

First of all you seem intent on pointing out every problem the F-22A has faced, yet you remain convinced the F-35 will work out as planned and we will get 2000+ of them.

You also remained convinced that no opponent will develop a fighter comparable to the F-35 in the next 20 years. Yet the Flanker and other aircraft already beat the the F-35 in range, agility, speed and payload. Sooner or later another countries will start to catch up in terms of sensors and stealth. The F-22 is not only superior in those regards, but is stealthier as well.

It is true the USAF does not need to produce 1000 F-22s to match the 1000+ F-15s we produced. But 180 is not enough, and the USAF agrees. We cannot rely on our allies like you seem convinced we can.r We don’t know how the F-35 will work out, and even if it does, the USAF needs more manned combat aircraft than the F-35 for it’s future.

ReconTeam
…the Flanker and other aircraft already beat the the F-35 in range, agility, speed and payload.
—————————

How do you know this…Air Power Australia? Some of these are a given while others are not.
—————————

Sooner or later another countries will start to catch up in terms of sensors and stealth. The F-22 is not only superior in those regards, but is stealthier as well.
—————————–
Stealthier yes, but from the tidbits we have gotten I would say that the sensors on the f-35 are superior on the F-35, but we don’t know for sure.

The F-35 doesn’t possess all-aspect stealth. Only the a narrow portion forward of the aircraft is completely stealth. Especially when you consider that in order to have a decent payload and range without aerial refueling, under-wing pylons must be used for weapons and external fuel tanks.

The Marine F-35B would be heavier, less maneuverable, with a lower payload, and lower range than the Air Force version since Marine Corps version will have the lift fan for VTOL capability and a lower thrust output compared to the A and C models. It won’t even include an internal cannon, instead gun pods are being designed. The Navy’s F-35C will require reinforced structures for carrier operations, but will have a larger wing area to improve low-speed control and range, but still won’t have the same maneuverability of the A model. Despite not having the handicaps of the B or C models, the A model still does not have much performance in terms of maneuverability, loaded power-to-weight ratio, payload, and stealth.

lol @ faith in jesus christ. No offense, but that might be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.

Carry on.

Unfortunately, STEALTH is underway, and so is an asymmetrical campaign that will render the enemy inescapable of ever coming forward again. ;)

Unfortunately, the exaggerated F-22 is incapable of doing anything but crashing and burning, and jet fuel for the military is so expansive, says an AF fuel specialist.

The exaggerated and non-precise F-22 is not capable of doing anything without a good map, nor precision technology that the guys who wrote this seems to think more about money without any real knowledge about the military, who couldn’t tell a SAC base from their local Walmart.

No one weapon system has ever won a war, as the Nazi’s learned from the V2. There is a need for technological superiority to offset numercial inferiority in key areas. Air domiance has always been a high tech race since it’s inception. The country with the best aircraft and pilots wins the battle. The problem is, they often lose the war of attrtion. Stopping the F-22A at 187 aircraft is that scenario. There is no room for attrition and there will have to be alternative plans devised to use other aircraft to fill the void. The bottom line for all weapon systems is they have to be viewed as expendable by the theater commander.
The F-22A is loved by all of us in the Aerospace industry and we would like to see more produced, but at what costs? When a B-2 cost half as much as an aircraft carrier, we can’t afford to lose any B-2’s. The approach that Gates is advocating is one of expendability. Make weapon systems cheaper and more of them. Of course, that makes the men and women in the military just as expendable.

And the F-22 is non-capable of maneuvering out of tight situations. Point blank, they invested too much money in the F-22 to produce the craft they wanted, with too much expensive parts and still a piece of junk.

why not sell the f-22 to the Japanese? its like a no-brainer. the costs would come down, etc. Even the Australians should have it. You want capable allies in the region to offset the Chi-coms. wat bothers me is they are using thier trade $$ to build thier military. When you buy Chinese products, alot of those companies are run by the PLA. Wake up please!!

F-22’s have gone 2 vs 6, 10, 12 F-15’s-and cleaned up. how can anyone say this aircraft is not worth it? Come on now..

In some future military action against a well equipted enemy air superiority(F-22) is key, without it the guys on the ground are dead and the F-35 is just a target.
Does anybody remember what happened the last time the US tried to build a one size fits all aircraft?

Chris: You mean like the H-60 program?

Mr. Wynne has does not see the big picture. Yes it’s bad for the airforce but it’s good for the country as a whole. Not to mention the fact that he’s resentful that Gates not only fired him but essentially publicly humiliated him to make an example that incompetence and excess will not be tolerated.

DensityDuck: I’m pretty sure that Chris was referring to the F-111 fiasco.

With all due respect to Mr. Wynne, he is just plain wrong in most of his points. How he can he possibly justify any continued expenditure on the F-22, and its onerous price tag, when the F15, F16, and FA18 are more than adequate for any current mission simply defies belief. He would do well to review the history of WWII, when American fliers were able to hold their own quite admirably in the Pacific Theater even though at the beginning of the war most Japanese aircraft were arguably superior to ours. It is simply not always about having the latest and greatest toys Mr. Wynne. I for one would sleep better at night with a few more Eagles, Hornets, and Falcons in our hangars, not to mention additional Reapers and Predators, as opposed to a few more aircraft of dubious usefulness like the F22 in our inventory

Trophy,

Absolutely incorrect.

The F-35 DOES possess all-aspect stealth. Like ALL stealth aircraft it is stealthier from the front but it IS stealthy from all-aspects.

Sorry to have to break it to you but ‘just’ two guided munitions + two AAMs is a pretty typical strike loadout for light/medium fighters these days & the F-35A’s range/combat radius with such a loadout (with internal fuel ONLY) is GREATER than that of any 4th generation light/medium fighter even WITH two external tanks. The F-35 is a light/medium strike fighter, NOT a bomber for Gods sake so stop the nonsence of dissing it for not having bomber-like payload/range.

Of course the F-35B is heavier, less maneuverable, with a lower payload, and lower range than the F-35A. It is a V/STOL strike fighter to replace the AV-8B & it is a quantum leap in capability over the AV-8B.

Of course the F-35C HAS reinforced structures & a larger wing area for carrier operations. Its maneuverability vs the F-35A is inferior is some repects but superior in others.

What part of a COMBAT LOADED F-35A has similar acceleration & maneuverability to a CLEAN F-16C Block 50 do you not understand?

Most simply put the performance in terms of maneuverability, loaded power-to-weight ratio, payload, and stealth (& much much more) of each F-35 model is SUPERIOR to the aircraft that they are replacing.

***

M. T. Majors,

Very simple. The price tag of the F-22 is NOT onerous (ESPECIALLY when looking at it in terms of cost-effectiveness) AND the F-15, F-16 & F/A-18 are NOT adequate (much less more than adequate) for current & (more importantly) FUTURE missions. Sorry but doing as ‘admirably’ as we did early in WWII is not acceptable these days. It is truly pathetic to talk about MUCH needed fighters necessary to provide the kind of air-superiority the US has become accustomed to as toys. A few more Eagles, Hornets, and Falcons in our hangars, might help you to sleep better at night but the fact of the matter is a few more F-22s would do MUCH better to actually keep you safe.

pfcem, try to be constructive and answer a few aircraft engineering questions/concepts if you have that kind of background as it sometimes appears.

Seems I read that a loaded 777 can use nearly as much fuel as a C-17…around 20,000 lb/hour. Given that you seem to support Boeing or the U.S. aerospace industry in some way or another…why not use a modified C-17 for aerial refueling?

I’m not talking about the current C-17 either. First, would it be feasible to change from a 4 engine to two-engine configuration to save fuel…even if it meant a reduced payload? Second, would it be feasible to put some sort of aerial rearming system on the tail ramp that could reach up and load some sort of AMRAAM armament pod into the bottom of a F-22?

Guess the idea is that many C-17 loads cube out before hitting anywhere near max payload, so some payload could be sacrificed for better fuel economy with two larger newer engines. Given the current trend of launching from Guam and more distant bases, an aerial re-arming capability coupled with aerial refueling could be an outstanding combat multiplier.

It seems like you could incorporate the probe directly into the tail ramp so the entire fuselage would not require modification.

Plus, believe with revised requirements requiring a refueler that also carried combat vehicles you would have a sure winner for a U.S. provider…without the wasteful more of the same that 767 seems to bring and excess that 777 would mean.

If you gotta spend over $100 billion to replace 400+ aerial refuelers, at least this way you would also enhance U.S. airlift, as well.

Mark, you out there?

Cole…yes, I read this with amusement.
Oddly, the KC10 gave us the capability to refuel and haul our mx troops & support gear. That worked really slick back in the day. The KC10 is an outstanding refueling platform and a dependable performer. That said, the notion of modifying a C-17 to multi-role a/c may be possible but would likely be very costly. The C-17 was designed for inter & intra-theater lift and can go places an “off-the-shelf” a/c would have trouble getting into…including KC10s & 767/777 class a/c. There would likely be issues with modifying a C17 to accommodate extra fuel and hall cargo…don’t how big an engineering challenge that would pose…working the “plumbing” for boom & probe drogue refueling with the back ramp would be a test.
I thought the most cost effective replacement tanker notion was to buy a “COTS” a/c and modify to the military mission. I’m not the “regular crew chief” on this mission set… to get the straight skinny on this issue, you would need an AF troop with big time AMC experience.…I was a customer and fan of the capability that AMC provides but my experience was focused on kinetic problems.

“The F-35 DOES possess all-aspect stealth. Like ALL stealth aircraft it is stealthier from the front but it IS stealthy from all-aspects.”

Reduced-RCS shouldn’t be confused with stealth.

“Sorry to have to break it to you but ‘just’ two guided munitions + two AAMs is a pretty typical strike loadout for light/medium fighters these days & the F-35A’s range/combat radius with such a loadout (with internal fuel ONLY) is GREATER than that of any 4th generation light/medium fighter even WITH two external tanks. The F-35 is a light/medium strike fighter, NOT a bomber for Gods sake so stop the nonsence of dissing it for not having bomber-like payload/range.”

Right, and light fighter F-16 in strike configuration can mount two AIM-9’s, two AIM-120’s, six GBU-12’s, and two 370 gal external fuel tanks. Or the other light-weight F/A-18C/D carrying two AIM-9’s, one AIM-120, two GBU-12’s, one targeting pod, and one 330 gal external fuel tank. The medium-weight F/A-18E/F could likewise be configured for two AIM-9’s, three AIM-120’s, two 480 gal external fuel tanks, one targeting pod, and four GBU-12’s. Give the F-35A four under-wing pylons and it would be able to carry ten GBU-12’s with two AIM-120’s, two AIM-9’s, and even an external fuel tank. That would put it close to being on par with the F-15E’s payload of 12 GBU-12’s with the same amount of missiles.

“Of course the F-35B is heavier, less maneuverable, with a lower payload, and lower range than the F-35A. It is a V/STOL strike fighter to replace the AV-8B & it is a quantum leap in capability over the AV-8B.

Of course the F-35C HAS reinforced structures & a larger wing area for carrier operations. Its maneuverability vs the F-35A is inferior is some repects but superior in others.”

And not everyone understands that. Especially those in the upper levels of government confusing the A, B and C variants performances.

“What part of a COMBAT LOADED F-35A has similar acceleration & maneuverability to a CLEAN F-16C Block 50 do you not understand?”

I doubt it being more maneuverable. Just because they’re both labeled 9g fighters doesn’t mean the F-35 would be able to pull as tight a turn with it’s additional heft over the F-16. The Su-35 is also classified as a 9g fighter, but would definitely fly circles around the F-35. Some aerodynamic compromise must be made to make room for the stealth aspects. Acceleration I can believe, given the newer powerplant and that reduced-RCS/stealth intake design doesn’t hamper engine performance much if at all.

“Most simply put the performance in terms of maneuverability, loaded power-to-weight ratio, payload, and stealth (& much much more) of each F-35 model is SUPERIOR to the aircraft that they are replacing.”

There’s no contesting the radar lower radar signature compared to legacy aircraft, the actual effectiveness is still in question. The payload is impressive with four under-wing pylons, but lacking for internal stores. Given the better avionics package (especially the EOTS), it would be able to make better use of it’s payload. We’ve come a long way from the days of the first Gulf War of sending multiple F-16 flights dropping an obscene amount of Mk. 84 dumb bombs in the hopes of destroying a structure only to find out it still stands… now we can actually drop a few JDAM or PAVEWAY equipped bombs and score direct hits.

But I still contest the maneuverability and loaded power-to-weight being superior. The power-to-weight ratio is about the same in air-to-air and strike loadouts as the F-15C, F-15E and F-16C. But that’s going off of officially published data I read on the F-16C and F-35A and my real world working experiences on the F-15.

Glad I could give you a laugh. Check out these figures from a September 2005 GAO study:

Out of 8909 C-17 sorties, 81.5% were below the planning factor payload of 45 tons.

Out of 4425 C-5 sorties, 97.4% were below the planning factor payload of 71.5 tons

Out of 186 KC-10 sorties, 81.7% were below the planning factor payload of 32.6 tons. Doesn’t sound like the USAF is using the KC-10 as much for cargo these days.

But it sounds like there are lots of loads being transported by C-17s that could be more efficiently moved by a lower payload C-17 version powered by two fuel efficient engines. Major Mark Kruse at Maxwell did a study in 2005 showing that in OEF C-17s only transported an average of 20.4 STONs during deployment and only 19.4 STONs during OIF. C-5s had similarly lousy payloads of 28.1 and 36.7 STONs respectively deploying to the same OEF and OIF airfields.

What is the logic in spending billions to replace tankers with a nearly identical fuel payload 767 KC-X. The future KC-Y and KC-Z would clearly be even more expensive and larger aircraft to replace the KC-10. Rather than go through the nightmare of future refueling competitions, continuous improvements of the C-17, as has occured with the C-130, would keep the C-17 line open for the next 20 years and solve the refueling and airlift mess simultaneously.

Given a heavier Army being forced upon us, and the capabilities for two-wide vehicle transport of lighter vehicles on C-17s, you could still move 4 32,000 lb M-ATV at a payload of 128,000 lbs. You may not realize that the C-17ER has fuel in its center wing tank. And you could easily put a removeable fuel tank in the passenger compartment.

Also believe a ramp-mounted re-arming arm could be designed to keep F-22s on stations much longer as they quickly expend their AMRAAM. Some manner of rotary pod ala those for the B-2 small diameter bomb could be designed to fit internally to maintain stealth. Pull the empty pod out and replace it with a full pod…then rearm the retrieved pod with on board armament teams for the next F-22. Perhaps the same arming arm could be designed to reload a B-2 with SDB as well, to get one more bomb load once they arrive from Missouri/Guam.

Optimize the aircraft you have as the USAF did with the B-2 carrying 80 SDB. More new F-22 airframes aren’t necessary…just keep the ones you have on station longer.

Why do liberal administrations think that just because we don’t need a strong military at the moment (even in the face of evidence) and that we won’t need that long term.
SAC, the nuclear subs and the threat of the Strategic Defense Initiative won the Cold War.
But afterwards they like to diminish the military strength and availability of weapons. Then somebody comes along and pokes the US in the eye and pisses us off enough to get off our fat asses. Obviously a few marines in another country getting blown up in their barracks isn’t enough but 3000 people in our laps is for a few news cycles.
So lets not keep our military strength up and let the tech leaks give the advantage to our competitors if not enemies. Then when war happens (not if) we can struggle to come up to speed and win a stalemate like every “conflict” after WWII.

Cole,

How about instead you try & convince airlines & freight companies that the C-17 is as efficient as their current airliner-based freighters. :)

***

Trophy,

I am not confusing reduced RCS with stealth. There ARE reasons why the F-35 is a stealth aircraft where reduced RCS aircraft like the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon & Rafale are not.

You missed the point. What ever the loadout, the F-35A has GREATER range than an 4th generation light/medium fighter. AND the fact of the matter is for MOST strike missions these days, light/medium strike fighters carry ‘only’ two guided munitions & a number of AAMs for self defense (plus external fuel tanks, targeting pods, EW pods et cetera — ALL of which the F-35s carries INTERNALLY).

Upper levels of government are unfortunatley easily confused…

Doubt/contest the F-35’s maneuverablity all you want. Those who have actually FLOWN it say it is as good or better than the aircraft it is replacing (& being so IS a goal/requirement).

Again, the F-35 is NOT a bomber! And again, for MOST strike missions these days, light/medium strike fighters carry ‘only’ two guided munitions & a number of AAMs for self defense (plus external fuel tanks, targeting pods, EW pods et cetera — ALL of which the F-35s carries INTERNALLY).

The government bean counters appear skit zo fren ick. Why obstruct the production of a superior F22 which our allies want and our forces deserve? Why do we not go forward with both the F35 and Raptor? Challenges that are developing guarantee we may need both to maintain air superiority. Will we again place our aviators in planes that are inferior; as we did in WWII, Korea and Vietnam? Why are lessons learned so east to ignore and why are the bean counters so powerful? We need a strong military with the best tanks, artillery, planes, ships and people; and that is history we can not afford to forget.

The US has had continuous air superiority since 1943. Besides all this will be over come by unmanned airplanes. The writing is on the wall, next year the USAF will purchase more unmanned aerial platforms than manned aerial platforms. Robin Olds, a legend in his time, thought the F-22 was so expensive it would destroy the USAF by taking money away from other required missions. By the Way the MC-12 will the pilots preferred weapon system of the future, cheap, capable in a non-hostile environment, and the ability to log flight time.

pfcem said: “How about instead you try & convince airlines & freight companies that the C-17 is as efficient as their current airliner-based freighters.“
=======================================
How many times a day does FedEx moves vehicles and outsize/oversize cargo? The USAF isn’t in the small package business. Routine transport of 40,000 lbs with a plane capable of 170,000 lbs would leave the USAF out of business in a hurry if operating as a business.

Bottom line: a middle ground of frequent loads is too small for the C-17 and too far for C-130s. Outsize/oversize loads and vehicles don’t fit freight planes.

With 777 variants upt to 775,000 lbs. MTOW and two engines each making up to 115,000 lbs of thrust (more variants around 90,000) there should be a suitable 777 engine to handle a C-17s 585,000 MTOW and its four engines each making 40,400 lbs. Sounds like one of the fuel efficient 90,000 lb 777 engines would be ideal.

Plus aren’t you the one always complaining about aircraft size on the ground? Doesn’t a 777 take up more ramp space than a C-17?

While the C-17 line is still open (sound familiar) crank out a few more 100 dual-use C-17s at a reduced price (sound familiar). Then you can go to a smaller future 787 tanker after initial demand has died down.

Why don’t we hear the Air Force Association and retired Generals making similar arguments for its every day essential-grind missions supporting other services like we do for it more glamourous F-22 mission and self-support aerial refueling?

Cole–

re: Swapping four engines for two on a C-17… It’s not quite that simple. C-17 uses those four engines to blow on the flaps, which contributes to it’s good short field performance.

Cole,

Once again you miss the point. Which is that airlines & freight companies don’t use C-17s because airliner-based frighters are more efficent at transporting ANYTHING which can fit inside their airframes. That goes for people, cargo AND fuel.

I get so tired of all the finger pointing and and blaming Obama or whoever and all the psuedo discussion! Consider this: we spend more on defence than the rest of the world COMBINED! That along with almost 800 overseas bases is a bit rediculous! If we can’t adaquately protect ourselves and still take care of our interests while cutting back or at the very least holding the present amount of funding then maybe it’s time we look at the entire military industrial complex and WHO it works for?

Name calling, finger pointing, and rock throwing have become national sports.

The simple reality is we have a huge national debt whose interest payments would buy all the toys you want.

The core question is what is the role of the US in the world? Then what force structure do we need to support that role at what cost?

Are we simply defending the US or are we functioning as the world’s policeman?

We have never had, nor will we ever have, the capability to defeat either Russia or China in force-on-force war. Don’t get mad at me; those are simple statements based on numbers. It is why we went to Plan B, a nuclear MAD strategy.

Today, in OIF/OEF, 80% of the dead bad guys are from small arms fire. What the shooters need are intelligent sights and better weapons (like the 25mm) with high-fidelity force-on-force training (CTC-like capabilities within the unit). In that environment, the A10 or the Harriers are a better platform. (Boy am I going to get yelled at)

What force structure do we need to fight the next generation Threats? More planes or more lasers? More tanks or better missiles? More real-time intelligence assets?

The dialogue is way too far down in the weeds. We’re broke; we have to prioritize rationally against the projected Threats. In 50 years there may be no oil, no ice, and 50% of the world starving to death (ok a little dramatic). At that point, does it matter if we have 200 F15E or 25 F35s?

CWolf88. Well thought out and what a refreshing thing that is! Fact is you can’t charge the government billions or rape the taxpayers building A-10’s. The military industrial complex must have a “bogy man” to scare the American people and “justify” our obscenely large defense budget. I completely agree that we cannot now (if we ever could?) defeat Russia or China in a conventional war and we never will be able too! Get used to it and get used to a much smaller role in world affairs. The fact that Germany, Japan and even Italy are abandoning their long held principle of a small defensive military are restructuring their military to be more capable of an offensive strike capability. Everyone seems to see the handwriting but us. I don’t buy that we have ever been the world policemen. Our military has been used to intimidate the acceptance or our corporate development and expansion. There is plenty of trouble in the world but we are seldom involved unless there is something of tremendous monetary value at stake. We have pretty much positioned ourselves to intervene anywhere in the world to protect this interest. We also don’t go to war to spread democracy! When most of your allies in a region are totalitarian states, to say you invade a neighboring state to spread democracy is ludicrous! As for terrorism (the new bogy man), how do we justify sending troops around the world to die and get maimed for a perceived threat that we don’t even take seriously enough to secure our boarders or our ports. Hell, we have no idea who or what has entered the country since 9/11 so what the hell are we doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? I don’t know but the lack of common sense, all the lying and spin put on everything we are told is really pissing me off! Hey our empire is ending, so have all the others that came before! The 21st century will be an Asian century!

I agree in substance with the two letters just above mine. Something is terribly wrong when our nation ALONE matches the annual “defense” budget of all the other nations on earth combined. As Dwight Eisenhower, a five star general (retired) and president of the U.S., 1953–1961 pointed out, we must watch lest the “military-industrial complex” grow into a monster pursuing its own objectives and consuming ever-larger shares of our national budget and thereby depriving literally millions of people here and around the world of healthcare and education. What is wrong with this country of ours, that we have become so “security-obessed” that we will stop at nothing to build more and more weapons. And we call ourselves a “Judeo-Christian” country. What a cruel joke that statement is. I am ashamed of us.

All this is very interesting, but I don’t understand why US is given up their “air-dominance” by saying yes to the JSF. I say this, because as active pilot in the Air Force I also flew the “JSF simulator” in both UK and Wright Patterson. I can tell you, that it is worth close to nothing in that role. When we were oponents to the JSF flying Russian Fighters, we were not even alloved to configure them with the missiles we want. And we was not alloved to “spread out” as we wanted, because doing that would “hammer” the JSF out of the sky. Again — why do you want it? Or don’t you? Is it because LM has comitted themself so much, so it now is only money they think about, and not the most importent thing: To be able to defend a world where we are free to think and talk. And talking about price, LM will not give us a fixed price or guarantee orders if we say we will buy under those conditions. I hope that it will end up showing JSF being capable, but we don’t know before 2011-12 where we will be able to fly the plane and test it operationally. As it is now, I have the feeling that LM can tell (and does) whatever they want about capability, price, LSC and much more without consequenses at all. Sorry Gentlemen, but I feel realy something is vrong.

Be sure to tell the news media of your concerns and point out in detail where our weaknesses are.…Back in WW 1 & WW 2 our enemies had to maintain a costly spy network to learn our secrets.…today, that is not necessary…there are too many reporters like Geraldo and others who have to expose such things in order to get their raises and promotions… This country is it’s own worst enemy ! Take a lesson from the satire movie ” The Mouse that roared ” It is clearly stated, that : the best thing that a foriegn country can do is to start a war with the US and lose it ! The American People„,particularly the politicians, are far too generous and gullible, and have been rapidly draining our resources and the taxpayer for decades…now they stand around in bewilderment and say ” What happened ???” We need to cut off foriegn aid and pay our own bills and help our own citizens…about 4 million who are jobless and homeless…

Sadly
What little stealth the F35 had has now been negated as the Russians have also unveiled an L-band AESA embedded in the wing leading edge of the Su-35 (and it can be retro-fitted to other aircraft). The latter would have only one possible use — counter VLO.
This will totally negate any stealth that the JSF or the new Boeing F-15 Silent Eagle has. This is a huge development in Air to Air Engagements, as now the Su-35 has more fuel, more power and weapons than anything except the F-22 Raptor(F-22 has a lower weapon count also); and with this new L-band AESA radar the Su-35 will be able to INDEPENDANTLY intercept aircraft outside land based systems and fly against stealth configured aircraft. For all and intense circumstance all aircraft except the B-2 and F-22 will have to fight just to get into a launch position ‚let alone launch an land attack.

There seems to be a lot of discussion on the “non” affordability of the F22, its too expensive, cold war relic etc.
Given that a large part of procurement & oporational “affordability”, in terms of maintainance costs with the F22 is attributed to stealth, is it not feasible to build & operate the majority of the fleet in a non stealth configuration to reduce maintainance costs whilst still maintaining sufficient aircraft in a stealth config so as to not de skill ground staff. Aircraft built & maintained in a non stealthy config could be brought back to a full stealth config only during a time of conflict & in scenarios where the benefits of stealth will be req’d. ie penetrating heavily contested airspace.
I find it astounding that the US Gov’t can justify pouring endless sums of money into what is looking very much like a failed project, from a project management perspective, in the F35 yet obvious cost saving measures as I have suggested dont seem to have even been considered. The performance of a non stealth F22 is & will remain for some time superior to anything potential adversaries are able to develop.
Continue production of the F22, kill off the F35 & replace it with new build F16/18’s, after all once the F22 has cleaned out the airspace 4th generation aircraft such as the F16 will be survivable in a battlefield strike, close air support role.
But thats just my opinion.

First, everything I have read would indicate that a NON stealth F-22 would come out on the short end of an incounter with an SU35 or SU35S.
Also as far as “foriegn aid” goes consider the following quote:
The EU gave away $36.5 billion in development aid in 2003. The US managed just one third that amount—and much of that foreign aid either went to Israel or else came with strings attached: nearly 80 percent of all American “development aid” obliges recipients to spend the money on American goods and services. On Iraq alone the US spent eight times the amount it gave in overseas aid to everyone else. The US is the meanest of all the rich countries on the OECD’s Development Assistance Committee. The Europeans are by far the most generous.
Just another example of perception not matching reality!
I have a real problem with the spin, lies of omission as well as comission and half truths we are feed 24/7. Pravda had nothing on US!

Just a follow up comment! The Russians are due to unveil their fifth generation fighter later this year! It is said to be a world beater?Don’t you think it would be wise to have a look at the capabilities of this new fighter BEFORE we make any further plans on the F22 question. It will be stealth and have the networking capability of the F22! Or maybe we will simple underestimate our advisaries capabilities as is usually the case!

I rdcently ask the 4Th dist DEMocRate questions about Medicar, socical sucKs SEC. were they were going to get moeny for that and the military PAY if one dozen’t get a raise the other don,t, the government has borrowed all the money from soc sec, there allmost broke and medicare is in worse ship, and Defese of this Great country is more inportant then, overhauling medical which we cann’t afford either, and they wom’t answer quetions about there free medical, dental/ pay raises?? We SURE DON“T NEED ANY MORE OBAMA< DEMOCRATS STUPIDITY For any thing.… FiRE THEM ALL

“The EU gave away $36.5 billion in development aid in 2003. The US managed just one third that amount—and much of that foreign aid either went to Israel or else came with strings attached: nearly 80 percent of all American “development aid” obliges recipients to spend the money on American goods and services. On Iraq alone the US spent eight times the amount it gave in overseas aid to everyone else. The US is the meanest of all the rich countries on the OECD’s Development Assistance Committee. The Europeans are by far the most generous.
Just another example of perception not matching reality!”

So what? We need to work on our own problems these days. If the Europeans want to take over our role of handing out money to everybody, let them.

Take over our role of handing out money? Here is a news flash! We have trailed the rest of the industrialized nations in foreign aid for decades. However, we have and still do lead the world in arms sales! Wake up, we are in Afghanistan because of a pipeline, helping Georgia for the same reason and we are in Iraq so we can influence the oil producing Middle East and protect Israel! Just Google Afgan pipeline! The biggest threat to the United States of America is the insatiable greed for power and money that drives every fabric of our society! The country is bankrupt and the only real threats to our national security besides ourselves are countries that can already kick our ass in a conventional fight! If we don’t give up this illusion that we can dominate the world and force our will on everyone else, someone sooner rather than later is going to point it out to us! If we don’t begin to look out for our own people and clean up our own house, this FORMER “Great Country” will become a backwater! I say these things as a concerned patriot that firmly believes in the principles that this Country was founded on! That does not include invading foreign countries for financial gain! This and the way we treat our own people betrays what we say we stand for!

When it comes down to defending America and our allies the cost of weaponry is like an ounce of prevention. We need to be strong and courageous enough to protect American Freedom and the freedom of our friends.You can’t appease fanatic
terrorists, you are either with or against
them,left wing social bleeding hearts JIBE won’t get the job done.
“SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM“
America, don’t allow our wrongly elected and appointed loser’s to destroy and discard 233 years of INDEPENDENCE AND FREEDOM, whining about yesterday is futile and stupid.

Rorge,

You need to educate yourself as to the purpose of L-band radar…

***

Geoff,

I don’t know what you have been reading but even a non-stealth F-22 would be superior to ANY Flanker.

Not just any flanker, the SU35S!
Quote:
In strategic terms the Su-35S is a game changer, as it robustly outclasses all competing Western fighter aircraft other than the F-22A Raptor. Deployed in significant numbers it is capable of changing the balance of power in any region where this occurs. This reality does not appear to be widely understood in most Western air forces, or DoD bureaucracies.

Al Yates, what are we defending America from in Afghanistan and Iraq? Terrorism? Al-Qaida? Al-Qaida or its offshoots are in Malaysia, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and many other places! Are we going to invade them all? This entire War on Terrorism lacks any credibility until you secure the boarders and the ports! If the threat is so great, how can you explain a policy by which we have no idea who or what may have entered the country since 9/11? There is no question that we need weapons to defend ourselves and our allies! But we have to stop acting like kids in a toy store! We can’t afford to buy everything we see. We must be realistic in what we need and how much we can spend. I just don’t think it is wise to leave these decisions blindly to politicians that want jobs in their districts, defense contractors that want to suck up all the tax money they can get and in some cases Military Leaders that may have an eye on a Political Career or a lucrative job with one of those very same defense contractors! It happens way too often! What I am trying to say is that we as the American people need to have some faith that decisions made on our behalf and actions taken in our name are not made for purposes of greed and power but rather for the good of our country! That good should be defined by the principals this country was built on rather than the spin and deception of corporate greed driven to more and more wealth and control. History has shown that not all wars are a good idea although ALL wars make money for some!

Geoff,

ANY Flanker. INCLUDING the Su-35S!

Yes the Su-35S is a gain changer. It is because it requires true 5th generation fighters like the F-22 & F-35 to ensure the kind of positive kill/loss exchange ratio we westerners demand of our air forces.

pfcem,
“Claims by the Joint Strike Fighter program office and manufacturer that the Joint Strike Fighter can outperform “Sukhois” in air combat operations are impossible to reconcile against what is known about recent developments in Sukhoi Flanker capabilities, and the known design limitations of the Joint Strike Fighter. This paper performs a critical analysis of these statements against known Russian technological capabilities, tactics and doctrine. The only conclusion which can be drawn is that the claimed simulations which yielded a “400 percent result” did not represent the variants of the Flanker which the Joint Strike Fighter will have to confront in operational service, and did not account for known Russian doctrine and capabilities intended to support these fighters. The only feasible explanation for such results is therefore that the simulated engagements were flown by Joint Strike Fighters against legacy Flanker variants with low power N-001 radars, 1980s generation missiles, warning systems, defensive jammers, and supporting systems. Therefore, a 2015 Joint Strike Fighter with its supporting systems is pitted against a 1980s threat without its supporting systems. Such results are only useful in assessing the effectiveness of the Joint Strike Fighter against some African or Middle Eastern nations and are clearly not representative of the Asia-Pacific environment post 2010. The reality is that the “threat environment” the Joint Strike Fighter will confront in the Asia-Pacific is very different to the environment expected and envisaged when the Joint Strike Fighter was conceived during the early 1990s. There have been significant technological advances in two metre band counter stealth radar, passive emitter locating systems, infrared sensors and high power-aperture X-band phased array radars. Moreover, DRFM jammers are proliferating, and Flankers now have the option of towed decoys like the KEDR, both diminishing the effectiveness of the AIM-120 AMRAAM which is to arm the Joint Strike Fighter. For all practical purposes, technological evolution has rendered the concept of the Joint Strike Fighter obsolete before it has even completed Flight Test or entered full rate production. This is a clear case of failed technological strategy on the part of the Joint Strike Fighter planning staff. It is now abundantly clear that the Joint Strike Fighter is not going to be viable in Beyond Visual Range air combat, just as it was clear from the outset that it would never be a serious player in Within Visual Range air combat. Improvements in the capability and number of internally carried missiles will not turn this problem around, since the opposing sensor and weapons capabilities will continue to evolve over time. The remarkable claims about Joint Strike Fighter air combat performance made recently by the program executives and manufacturer’s public relations staff can be explained only if the cited simulations were conducted against 1980s Sukhoi variants, devoid of the capabilities of contemporary and future Flanker variants. As such these claims clearly lack analytical rigour and cannot be taken seriously.”

They call them paragraphs, Geoff.

In which of the following areas do the the Russians distinguish themselves with leading edge or even moderately competitive technology on the world market:

* Automobiles
* Spacecraft
* Computer processing and avionics
* AESA radars
* Tanks
* Commercial aircraft
* Aircraft carriers, submarines, surface ships
* Nuclear sub missiles
* Aircraft engines
* Stealth aircraft comparable to the B-2, F-22, F-35 (don’t answer Su-35S or Pak Fa)
* Missiles with a proven air-to-air record

Given their mediocre-to-poor product track record, decades behind the west in many areas, what leads you to believe the Russians suddenly can build fighters remotely competitive with the Europeans, let alone the U.S.? Paper stats and inadequate training do not an effective air force make. If you think our operational readiness rates are low…

Look at the respective track records. No Soviet/Russian fighter has ever shot down one of our non-stealthy F-15/F-16 let alone an F-22/F-35. Will stated Russian aircraft purchases actually materialize or are they a face saving measure for aircraft they could not sell elsewhere?

Read recently that Russian annual defense budgets lately have been reduced to $35 billion compared to our over 500 billion. Much of their budget has been squandered trying to get the Bulava nuclear missile to work. A good portion of the Russian air force is grounded or was shot down by the Georgians. Thousands of tanks have been retired. They want to buy a French helicopter carrier and continue to have problems trying to rebuild/update an older Soviet-era carrier for the Indians.

Meanwhile we will be building thousands of F-35s that their radars can’t see until an AMRAAM is already close at hand.

Like so many others, you inflate air-to-air threats that exist in only a handful of potential threat nations. Our combined Joint and Allied force is more than capable of destroying any such threat in weeks at most. The true need is for long war air-to-ground capability at which the F-35 excels.

Sorry about the paragraphs!

I suppose that an attitude similar to yours was prevalent when they shocked the crap out us in Korea with the MIG15? How could such a backward and unsophisticated country build such an advance aircraft. Or indeed beat us with the first earth satellite, the first man in space or the best ground attack plane of the second world war? Then there is the T34 tank that was so good that the Germans used much of its innovation in there later designs. They have the largest cargo planes in the world which we on occasion actually leased because we have nothing to match them. They also produce some of the best helicopters. The AK47 is generally regarded as a milestone in small arm development!

You may want to do a little checking on a joint military operation done recently between us and the Indian Air Force. Fighter on fighter without our AWACS the SU’s cleaned up on the F15’s!

You may also remember after the cold war we fitted Russian ejection seats into some of our fighter because they where a superior design.

Do a little reading on the US doing exercises with the German Air Force and how our FA18 had a hell of a time with their MIG29’s.

As for the Pak Fa, nobody knows as of yet! However, it is pretty well recognized outside the Pentagon and US manufacturers (who obviously have something to gain) that the SU35S and its later siblings are the most maneuverable and deadliest close in aircraft on the planet and only the F22 is superior in BVR!

I am not saying they are ahead of us across the board and they do not have their problems. But your conclusion is a dangerous assumption! Check out ausairpower​.net you will get an education!

Quote:
This paper performs a comparative assessment of Russian technology employed in contemporary fighter aircraft and associated systems and weapons. Models of future air combat are defined and discussed. All categories of basic systems technology are then consecutively compared against their US or other Western equivalents. Finally, fighter types are compared to the first order. In conclusion, the notion that contemporary production Russian fighters are inferior in technology, performance and overall capability to their US/EU peers is largely not correct, and predicated on assumptions about Russian technological capabilities which ceased to be true a decade or more ago.

geoff :you are using APA . APA is know because they are completely anti-f-35,you can see entire blogs of discussion about this ‚but no one PAK-FA is even in the prototype stage and only 3 su-35,or two because one crashed.The fighter jet and the main battle tank are in the zenith of their evolution .You can not improve them to much with today technology.

elgatoso
So you are saying that these guys are anti F35 because?? Following your logic, they are also anti every US fighter EXCEPT the F22? They are also anti all European fighters?

I think they pretty much know their stuff! It would not be the first time we procured a pig in a poke! In addition, this attitude I often see expressed here of our ultimate supremacy in all things is simply not true! I will accept the following until someone provides a more convincing argument!

If we compare a late model AESA equipped F-15K/SG subtype against the late model Su-35BM/Su-35–1, both likely to be rolled off a production line at the same time, these Flankers will outperform these F-15s in much of the flight envelope, especially at transonic speeds. With the AL-41F engine the Flanker will be able to sustain decent supersonic speed on dry thrust, giving it an energy advantage throughout the envelope. How much supercruise capability the hybrid AL-31F-117 series engine will provide remains to be seen. With conformal fuel tanks the F-15 will have comparable range to the Flanker with external PTB-2000 drop tanks. Equipped with the Irbis E the Sukhoi will achieve a first look / shot capability over the F-15 with an APG-63(V)2 AESA radar. In terms of EWSP capability, the Sorbstiya jammers will deliver better EIRP than the legacy ALQ-135 series, and the Khibiny-M will be comparable to the ALR-56M series. An area of uncertainty is how much of their newer radar signature suppression technology the Russians will incorporate in export Flankers.

In performing an overall summary, the Flanker will outperform or match the F-15 in most cardinal parameters and capabilities.

The other production Boeing fighter is the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet with its much vaunted APG-79 AESA radar. The Su-35BM/Su-35–1 outperforms it on all cardinal parameters, including radar range, but excluding the somewhat academic measure of clean radar signature – academic since in combat external stores must be carried by both fighters.

Lockheed’s F-16E / Block 60 subtype with AESA and conformal fuel tanks is not competitive against the Su-35BM/Su-35–1 on any parameters, the Sukhoi cleanly outclasses it across the board.

The Lockheed-Martin F-35 JSF will be outclassed in all cardinal performance parameters, with the exception of radar signature when the JSF is flown clean with internal stores only. That advantage may also be entirely academic if the Flanker is networked with low frequency band radar to cue it to the JSF. It is also not entirely clear whether the radar signature of the export variants of the JSF will be low enough to deny lock-on by the powerful Irbis E at useful missile ranges.

The Eurofighter Typhoon with AMSAR will compete with the Su-35BM/Su-35–1 in terms of close combat agility and dash speed, but it does not have a decisive advantage in systems and sensors and cannot match the radar range of the Irbis E, and will not match a supercruise engine equipped Flanker.

The Dassault Rafale share many qualities with the Typhoon, but is smaller, and much the same comparisons apply to the Su-35BM/Su-35–1.

A key advantage the Flanker will possess against all but the conformal tank equipped F-15 is combat persistence, which provides far more flexibility in choosing engagements and the opportunity to run an opponent out of gas.

Geoff,

I don’t know where you got that trash but the F-35 has NEVER been pitted against ‘legacy’ Flanker variants. It has ALWAYS been pitted against near FUTURE Flanker variants.

The “400%” number comes from computer modeling/simulation done way back in 2002 vs a “threat aircraft in the not-too-distant future” — it does not take a brain surgeon to recongnize that to be an advanced (as of 2002) Flanker varient. More recently (results made public in Feb 2009) the computer modeling/simulation was done again & obviously the “threat aircraft in the not-too-distant future” there was the Su-35BM/Su-35S [based on the results I SERIOUSLY doubt it to be the PAK-FA] — and you have your head in the sand if you think we don’t have a more than fair idea of the capabilities of the Su-35BM/Su-35S. The Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Saab Gripen, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Sukhoi Su-30MKI all FAILED TO ACHIEVE A POSITIVE KILL/LOSS EXCHANGE RATIO vs the “threat aircraft in the not-too-distant future” but the F-35 did.

Wht you need to realize is that pure flight performance has not been THE determining factor in air-to-air effectiveness. The days of having to point the nose of your aircraft at your opponent in order to target/fire on it have long passed.

pfcem
In my humble opinion everything you site is from people who want to sell F35’s or they in some other way have a vested interest? They are salesman or promoters! In other words, “they have a horse in the race!” It is like listening only to the coal companies about coal pollution! Or saying that the new Chevy Volt is this or that because that is what General Motors says, supported by the government officials who have committed to buying the damn thing!
I would not disrespect your belief by calling it trash but I believe that anyone who only considers information from one side of a debate is very narrow minded. I don’t know what the F35 would do against a SU35 and neither does anyone else until it happens! They can make predictions, but they are just that! I think the jury is still out and all reasonable opinions should be considered!

For your information, the SU variants are based on the T10 and have nothing in common with the future Pak-FA or T50!

Air Combat can be simulated on a computer and the accuracy is completely dependent on the data entered, the quality of the simulation software and in some cases what you want for an outcome!

The US Air Force F-15’s that got “smoked” without AWACS assistance against Indian Flankers was not a computer simulation neither was the FA-18’s problems with German Air Force MIG-29’s.

Please don’t insult my intelligence, of course there is more to air combat then flight performance! I also know that placing too much importance on Stealth can be dangerous. If there is a sudden counter measure developed, you are screwed.

Google “F35 Predator or Prey?” Here is a small portion. Just because it disagrees with your opinion does not make it trash!

How people feel about this quantity of F-35 JSFs depends on two factors — firstly whether the aircraft will be protecting or attacking them, and secondly whether it will be effective or ineffective at National-Defence-critical roles such as air dominance and penetrating strike.
Many in the Western World have full confidence in the F-35 ‘Lightning II’, and are comfortable with the thought that this world-wide armada of aircraft will protect them, their Nation and its global interests. They are willing to pay an unknown price for the privilege. Cost estimates have the price at least $150M a copy — the most expensive production fighter aircraft — ever.
Outside the West, the view is different. How would Nations like Russia and China feel about having 3,500 combat aircraft arraigned at them? Insecure? Threatened? Non-Western military arms companies might see this differently. A threat of this magnitude presents a huge opportunity to develop effective countermeasures which can be sold in large volumes for large profits.
And so Russian and Chinese military arms companies have been investing substantial resources in analyzing the F-35 JSF to find ‘chinks’ in its armor. They draw on the immutable laws of physics to find their answers and opportunities.

pfcem
Where are the simulations for JSF V Su30, I’ve never seen any results except for older aircraft and then they were not fully loaded for air to air against the JSF. (LM’s own study)If you look at that study you see if both the Su27 and JSF were fully loaded for A to A the Su27 won.Not real flattering for the JSF.

Geoff,

Wow, you write fast.

You are neglecting four things: 1)training, 2)human factors, 3) politics, and 4)defense budget

1) A Russian or Chinese pilot getting 4 hours a month will not surpass an American/European/Israeli pilot getting far more hours in both aircraft and quality simulators. Better trained race car drivers or pilots in inferior equipment will best lesser trained counterparts in better equipment…and our equipment is not inferior. Even in Korea with nearly identical equipment, our loss exchange ratios was what, 10:1? Our current training simulation technology is part of what makes our pilots better.

2) Human factors include motivation and intoxication. Russia has a serious alcohol problem. This impacts aircraft engineering, production, quality control, mechanics, parts producers, and pilot capacity. With insufficient flight hours and pay, morale is affected and the best candidates will want to pursue other more lucrative jobs.

The Australia clan looks at aircraft performance in the absence of these factors and whether Russian equipment actually WORKS as advertised. They appear to still believe that most air-to-air will occur WVR where Russian pilots, if adequately trained and with no hangover, might have a chance.

The problem of course is they will almost never get that opportunity due to our stealth and superior radars, jamming, AWACS, and missiles. If they did vs. an F-35, its well-trained pilot would use off-axis AIM-9X and helmet mounted display to end the matter quickly before aircraft performance came into play.

3) Politics is what influenced the Indian-U.S. wargames. Obviously we do not fly without AWACS and the Indians have no identical capability yet we provided them vectoring in the wargames. We were restricted from using our best AESA radars…fighting with one hand tied behind our back. Finally, they were not fighting our newest stealth aircraft.

4) Defense spending is the last factor where we surpass the Russians. With one tenth the defense budget they simply cannot produce sufficient planes to match our R&D and manufacturing rate. They also lack modern sterile factory infrastructures for both aircraft and parts manufacturing.

The Chinese spend twice what the Russians do but still far less than a fifth of our budget. They rely on either being sold or copying Russian technology. The Russians are tired of losing the revenue and technology to the Chinese.

Our technology advantage could be duplicated and surpassed if we sold our F-22 to the Japanese, Australians, or others. That is not politically correct to say, but nevertheless would occur. Plus, if we sold a few nations the F-22, other nations would feel slighted and fewer nations would want the next best thing –the F-35.

The sky is not falling. The Air Force Association makes their living trying to scare Congress into spending more for the last ounce of unfair advantage for Air Force pilots. Yet the scenarios where major F-22 air-to-air battles could occur are few and far between, and the F-35 is more than capable of picking up any slack.

Meanwhile, real,not simulated casualties occur daily in Afghanistan against actual threats. When does the Army gets its chance at an unfair advantage?

Watch Air Force commercials showing F-22s, or Airmen in the U.S. helping ground Soldiers with a Reaper, and then they ask “Science Fiction?” Then they show that the Reaper is real.

The implication, of course, is that technology only works in the air, and it is a not-so-subtle slight against FCS tech. It employs recruiting advertising monies (how many enlisted pilots are out there?)to attempt to sway those holding the budget purse strings to fund aerial technology to the exclusion of ground tech…where troops are actually dying. Geez.

Cole
I guess no one having any aircraft comparable or superior to any of ours must be a new law of Physics? Also, if Chinese and Russian pilots are under trained, alcoholic buffoons why even build an F22? We don’t need it! We can just point these “facts” out to them and they will stop fighting!

Degrading and underestimating your potential enemies and having no respect for their capabilities are alive and well in the US! The religion of American Exceptionalism, we are the best and the smartest in the world, all that we build and do is superior to all others and we can kick anyone’s ass any time we choose! Some of you guys live on a different planet than I do! This is not the decades after WWII, the rest of the world is catching up and in some cases leaving us behind! We are also broke and barrowing money from the Chinese to stay afloat! History has shown that underestimating the capabilities of our enemy has ALWAYS come back to bite us in the ass! The Japanese “Zero” and the MIG 15, the “Battle of the Bulge” and the “Tet Offensive” come to mind! All were a sobering shock! Economically and hence Militarily our power is declining, our infrastructure is crumbling and if we don’t begin to come to grips with these facts we are in big trouble!

Geoff,

The F-35 has has NEVER been pitted against ‘legacy’ Flanker variants. It has ALWAYS been pitted against near FUTURE Flanker variants. Therefor that whole long spew (premised on such falsehood) is trash.

For your information I never said the PAK-FA had anything in common with the Flanker. The only thing I DID say is that based on the results it is doubtful that the “threat aircraft in the not-too-distant future” in the latest simulations was the PAK-FA but rather the Su-35BM/Su-35S.

As for “Predator or Prey”. Just one example of how incorrect its assumption are — the F-35 was NOT designed for the 1990’s environment, it was designed for the 2015–2050 environment.

***

Rorge,

No, the simulations were (BOTH those in 2002 & those in 2008/2009) a number of modern western fighters & the F-35 vs “threat aircraft in the not-too-distant future”. While the publicly released results do not indicate exactly what the “threat aircraft in the not-too-distant future” it is quite obvious that (in both cases) it is some advanced Flanker variant. I don’t know what study you are referring to but NO Flnaker has EVER ‘won’ vs the F-35. BUT assuming you are reffering to that infamous RAND study…http://www.rand.org/news/press/2008/09/25/index.html

The US is making a big mistake to can the F22. As an Aussie, it would have made a lot more sense for us to have purchased the F22 than the F35. The Russians don’t seem to have a problem exporting their top line equipment to anyone. Why can’t the US sell the F22 to close and trusted allies?

Gates DID fire this guy for incompetence, if he wasn’t smart then, what make people think he is any smarter now? I just think mil​.com could have somebody better for this. He’s probably bitter for being fired. I’ll bet Gates is shaking in his shoes worring about this guys opinion of him.

Sec Gates did not say the F22 was not a good bird, he said it cost too much, besides, wasn’t a lot of right wingers behind the F35 because Rummie and all the republicans was behind it? Sometimes I get the idea the right wingers don’t know what that want. They do know how to say No though, thats a good leadership trait, ain’t it? I’am just saying.

Steve,

Some technologies are too sensitive to sell to even your closest allies.

***

Armamentsoldier,

No, Wynne was NOT fired for incompetence (Gates is the incompetence one). Wanye was fired because he dared to stick to the truth that the USAF needs more than 183/187 F-22s in direct contradiction to Gates’ position.

True pfcem, wasn’t it odd that those who supported the USAF’s final F-22 requirement were the ones chosen to take the fall for that cruise missile incident. If anything that showed how the loss of SAC negatively affected that portion of the USAF. Perhaps Global Strike Command or whatever is that new group can fix things.

The F-22 was not too costly, it was simply an unjustified political murder. The F-35 is a compromise in several areas, but considering it should have only replaced the F-16 and AV-8, but that was okay. The F-22 did not compromise and was needed for air-superiority. It is a mistake to substitute it with a fighter inferior to upgraded F-15Es in some regards.

Well, let me put it this way. Last year, when the Air Force was getting hammered in public by Gates, those of us on the Army side just hunkered down and were glad it wasn’t us. We hoped, wrongly as it turned out, that the COIN jihad wouldn’t come our way. But this year, it did, and FCS went to hell. So I’d be sympathetic towards Mr. Wynn’s arguments vis a vis the ad hominem attacks made against him.

The fact is that he has a point. If we won’t spend the money on our own to put new technology in the field, and won’t even let our allies buy the best technology we have, then we should not be surprised at all if we gradually lose out to the Europeans and perhaps even the Russians. Exactly how is this in our national interest if burden-sharing is the goal ? America always seems to want to impose these silly, self-serving unilateral policies not just on our enemies but on our friends. It is no surprise that they will draw their own conclusions and reduce their dependency on us. I’ve been browsing through Guenther Rall’s biography over the weekend, and one fact that comes out is that the Luftwaffe would probably not lost so make of its pilots in the F-104 Widowmaker if our tech control policy had been more enlightened and less bureaucratic, and significant safety-related changes had not been held back.

late in the game and buried at the end — “Holes in US Defense” — somebody please tell me how to say “can I kiss your a!@ in Chinese”!? (cause I don’t want to be an organ donor)~!

Either the nano/et tech is really good and classified ultra top secret, or we are giving it away?

And, Obama is raising the Chinese flag on the White House law to celebrate the communist takover of the pnrc — where 40–60 million were slaughtered to build the “working class” — give me a break!

pnrc: has a port in Long Beach Harbour, OWNS the Panama Canal, built the largest deep water port in the Bahamas, cyber-swyped the F-35 database, and is OUR FREIND!?

pray to Creator Gates knows what he is doing — hey, they don’t give me the top intel — but, it looks like a sell out and I will go down swinging a BIG FIST! And, I won’t be alone.

Fund the F-22, forget being the policemen for the NWO, give the illuminuts the finger, or we we’ll all be singing the Chinese national anthem, or sniping their sleeper cells. And, I can’t sing~!

militia man

I love to know the figures, but if the JSF had been cancelled a couple of years ago, when everyone except for Gates and L/M knew the programme was in serious trouble. How many extra F-22’s and new build F-15E’s/F-16’s could have been purchased ? Let alone the money that is now being spent, and still the first true production planes haven’t flown, all test aircraft are unique.
The original fuselage design has slowly changed with a loss of stealth, check out the prototypes to later aircraft. Airpower Australia did a study into the JSF’s stealth and L/M and Gates won’t make direct comment on their findings.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230209–1.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009–01-Annex.html#mozTocId787784
The USN and USMC would have to source another aircraft though for their missions if it were cancelled. Maybe even this would be worth considering (even without the stealth coatings).
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009–01-Annex.html#mozTocId787784
Yes these guys don’t like the F-35 JSF, but they put forward a model for the RAAF which involved F-22’s and modified F-111’s. The model was attacked by the Australian DoD , but last year RAAF F-111’s and the Raptors flew combined missions at Red Flag, and all worked as suggested in their submissions. So much so the exercise wasn’t reported widely as in previous years, and again these 30+ year old birds had the best maintenance /sortie rate bar none. Imagine an updated F-111 working with Raptors , both aircraft have speed to burn and good internal fuel capacity, negating the size of tanker support. The RAAF is INSTEAD getting Super Hornets the slowest Fighter since the late 60’s in the RAAF. The USAF still mourns the death of their F-111’s, but especially the EF-111 Ravens, the F18 Growler is so slow and range hampered.
Check out their site ! They have the best summaries on Soviet / Chinese equipment available on line even the US services refer to a lot of their work, especially on Soviet radar and weapons systems.
We are now hearing reports that the cost of the P/W F-35 engine costs are set to blow out, hence the DoD is dispatching a Tiger Team to monitor the situation. New built legacy fighters with enough F-22 support, will achieve more than the JSF could ever hope for and would be easier to support due to user service knowledge and won’t need the amount of tanker support.
The US must support it’s allies Japan and Australia and make the F-22 available in some form to these countries! Or risk future relations and/or military sales.
When will this madness end.

Drake1 August 30th, 2009 at 9:53 am
The Russians can’t even detect their own planes.

What does that say about their radars?

The F-22… too expensive… maybe, but you need to look at it in the environment it is designed for, Air superiority against any threat. in this role there is no other fighter in the sky that can expect to fly out of an engagement with an F-22. and the 187 of them to be built is not enough. how many are available for deployment at any one time? what about training units, development units, and maintenance? my 2c worth is build them (lots of them) & sell them to (at least) Japan & Australia.

Just released extensive forensic analysis and performance modelling of the airborne L-band AESA radar for the Su-35.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-140909–1.html

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009–06.html

Every national military disaster on our history has been preceded by cuts in defense development. And the obama administration is going to overcome historical facts in defense issues as well as in economic issues? Yeah, right.

Mr. Wynne, as any private citizen, is entitled to express his opinion.

As a cashiered former SECAF, I find his opinion of marginal interest.

Mr. Gates is the SECDEF, is in charge and makes the decisions. Mr. Wynne bet his career on forcint the F-22 issue and seems to have come out second best.

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