The End of Acquisition?

The End of Acquisition?

Francis Fukuyama argued in his book The End of History and the Last Man that the end of the Cold War seemed to usher in the end of new ideologies and the triumph of western liberal democracy. With the necessity of fighting the wars we are in, with flat budgets planned for much the next five years, and Defense Secretary Robert Gates focused on lower costs and more flexible acquisition, analysts are increasingly concerned that we may be facing the effective end of acquisition, a period when few or no new major weapon systems are planned and bought.

One very experienced defense expert with time in the military, on the Hill and in industry said, “The question is will the balance move too far.” That balance is the difficult one between our technological supremacy, force structure and troop training, and the capabilities that potential enemies might field. This source wonders how much closer to a fair fight the Obama administration and Gates will allow the country to move. “As a former infantryman, I hate fair fights,” he said.

We need a military that can fight today’s wars, not wars we might have to fight in 10 or 20 years, say Gates and Gen. James Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs. After all, Gates put an end to the now-scorned “Cold War” weapons like the F-22 and the Manned Ground Vehicle, But the American way of war has traditionally required enormous amounts of equipment that can get to a distant theater relatively quickly. That means long-range air transports, fast cargo ships, airborne tankers, land systems that can be moved by air and sea, bombers that could penetrate enemy territory and fighters to protect the bombers and the troops on the ground.


“With science and technology spending going flat and the national fatigue for wars and defense spending, we could very well create a force with little or no power projection capability or one that is shaped due to budget considerations rather than what the last superpower ought to be thinking about — deterrence,” said one senior analyst who works with the Pentagon and the intelligence community.

The belt tightening began when the Office of Management and Budget told the Pentagon it could not longer fund system upgrades from contingency or operations funding contained in supplemental spending bills. The Obama administration pledged to fold operational funding into the regular budget. According to a source familiar with its deliberations, the Obama administration’s defense transition team considered a restriction like this. This all came about because the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq had gone on long enough that the Pentagon should have a pretty good handle on just how much it will need to spend each year — barring catastrophes — they argued.

A substantial portion of the upgrades needed to restore and improve weapons came from those supplemental bills. Then came April 6, when Gates unleashed the greatest number of program terminations in modern memory, and certainly since the end of the Cold War. Gates, Gen. James Cartwright, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and other senior officials spoke with scorn of “exquisite” weapon systems, especially those that dragged on for decades, incurred huge costs and schedule increases and then didn’t deliver the superb capabilities the services and the defense companies had pledged they would offer the country.

But the Defense Department is spending less and less on what is usually called its seed corn — science and technology. In budget parlance, this is known as 6.1 money. Within the RDT&E budget, the administration if shifting funding away from early research and development activities, such as Applied Research and Technology Demonstration and toward later developmental activities such as Operational Systems Development,” notes the most recent budget analysis by Todd Harrison of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. At the same time, Harrison notes that procurement funding went up a real 4.6 percent over the previous year’s budget. If you boil all that down, the Gates’ Pentagon is spending more on programs already underway and less on new programs.

On top of that, Harrison notes that the budget is “weighted” toward the purchase of “next generation” weapons, not new versions of existing weapons (like the F-16 Block 50) or service life extensions as was done with the M1A2. These next-gen weapons are more expensive. “An approach that includes the purchase of some next generation weapon systems, but focuses more on the production of new current generation systems, upgrades of existing systems and selective reductions in the force structure might cost substantially less,” Harrison argues.

In addition, all the analysts we spoke with expressed deep concern about the equipment the Army will buy and what shape it will take in the future. The analyst who works with the Pentagon and intelligence community also said that Gates or his replacement must concentrate on what shape the Army will take after Iraq and Afghanistan. Will it be built to fight the wars we are in now or will it be built to tackle coming threats, or will the administration try to build a varied force, something that the Army has traditionally resisted.

Another analyst points to the heavy US reliance on allies, as well as the crucial US capabilities on which they depend. “By and large, we want to insert force and withdraw it to effect a strategic result and to reinforce allies. As the only global power in the alliance of democracies, our unique contribution is to provide global tools aiding and abetting regional allies in achieving joint objectives. We should be focusing upon supporting greater convergence among air and naval systems and properly funding forces to support the post-Iraq transition, a transition in which air and naval forces will play the key role with conservative Arab states and Israelis; the deterrence of Iran and re-enforcement of Iraq within the Middle East is largely an air and naval effort,” said Robbin Laird, a defense consultant who works in the US and Europe.

Join the Conversation

“One very experienced defense expert with time in the military, on the Hill and in industry said, “The question is will the balance move too far.” That balance is the difficult one between our technological supremacy, force structure and troop training, and the capabilities that potential enemies might field. This source wonders how much closer to a fair fight the Obama administration and Gates will allow the country to move. “As a former infantryman, I hate fair fights,” he said.”
That’s why you don’t nation build. The military should have spoken up more forcefully about what we would be giving up by involving ourselves in two occupations, when it became obvious what the last President was leading us towards.

“the deterrence of Iran and re-enforcement of Iraq within the Middle East is largely an air and naval effort,” said Robbin Laird, a defense consultant who works in the US and Europe.”
_____________________________________________________________________________________
How are we going to deter Iran if they are ultimately going to have strong ties with Iran? Malaki just got excluded from a new coalition, which seems very friendly to Iran. How are we going to largely re-enforce Iraq with air and sea power, in the event of a likely internal conflict…ward off Turks, Kurds, or the Iraq military with air strikes?

“One very experienced defense expert with time in the military, on the Hill and in industry said, “The question is will the balance move too far.” That balance is the difficult one between our technological supremacy, force structure and troop training, and the capabilities that potential enemies might field. This source wonders how much closer to a fair fight the Obama administration and Gates will allow the country to move. “As a former infantryman, I hate fair fights,” he said.”

“the deterrence of Iran and re-enforcement of Iraq within the Middle East is largely an air and naval effort,” said Robbin Laird, a defense consultant who works in the US and Europe.”

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That’s why you don’t nation build. The military should have spoken up more forcefully about what we would be giving up by involving ourselves in two occupations, when it became obvious what the last President was leading us towards.

How are we going to deter Iran if they are ultimately going to have strong ties with Iran? Malaki just got excluded from a new coalition, which seems very friendly to Iran. How are we going to largely re-enforce Iraq with air and sea power, in the event of a likely internal conflict…ward off Turk, Kurd, or the Iraqi agression with air strikes? It’s funny…we are going back to the status quo of policing a new no fly zone for everyone who has a stake in Iraq.

“How are we going to deter Iran if they are ultimately going to have strong ties with Iran?”

…one can presumably expect that a country will have strong ties to itself, although I admit that with many Middle Eastern countries that isn’t quite axiomatic!

******

I’m not sure how much credibility I give Cartwright, who never saw an advanced program he didn’t want to kill. He gives the impression of still being irked that they took his M14 away. He’s being quoted now because his attitude aligns with the general idea, but he hasn’t come to this lately; he’s just saying the same thing he always has done.

I meant Iraq.

“We need a military that can fight today’s wars, not wars we might have to fight in 10 or 20 years.” Case in point to the idiocy of Gates.

We HAVE a military MORE than able the fight & DECISIVELY win today’s ‘fight’ (the ONLY thing lacking is the political will to use it towards that end) but if we do not rebuild our military for wars we might have to fight in 10 or 20 years (our potential enemies ARE doing so) we could LOSE those wars with MUCH more dire consequences than losing (much less not doing better than we already are — which is all one could really hope to do since we are in fact doing unprecedentedly WELL in terms of actual combat) this one.

And the new versions of existing weapons instead of “next generation” weapons nonsence. Image how pathetic our armed forces would look if after procuring 200 F-15 Eagles we cut the program & went back to “upgraded” F-4 Phantoms OR after procuring 2000 M1 Abrams we cut the program & went back to “upgraded” M60 Pattons OR after procuring a half dozen Tigonderoga AEGIS cruisers we cut the program & went back to “upgraded” non-AEGIS cruisers…

Obama doesn’t want us to have overwhelming military superiority — because leftists like Obama think America is too militaristic. Obama and the Left think America is too easily tempted into war. By their logic it’s good for the world if we have to fight fair fights, because that might deter us.

Obama’s gutting of defense and destruction of our future fighting force is being done consciously and purposefully. His goal is to weaken our power so we have to think twice about any future military “adventures”.

It’s evil and traitorous, but it makes sense to the left-wing, marxist world-view of people like Obama, Pelosi, Van Jones etc.

@ Jim,
if ya spend more $$$ than the next 15 to 25 nations combined on military, and you don’t have superiority, then you’re getting screwed.

If the consensus of the Pentagon and DoD and national intel is that there’s not a doomsday threat on the horizon, U might think that U don’t need an umbrella when there’s only a 20% chance of rain.

@pfcem–
“We HAVE a military MORE than able the fight & DECISIVELY win today’s ‘fight’ ” Then why haven’t we won either of them? It’s not for lack of trying on the soldiers’ part.
And which enemies are upgrading or adding forces to the point where they will actually be an operational threat?
Russia? They’re talking about buying amphibious assault ships from France (who will never sell them) because they can’t build their own, and getting ready to buy 56 SU-35s to be delivered over the next 56 months–a rate that will not keep up with attrition over that period, and no new tanks during that time.
The Chinese? Well, if they start now, they’ll soon be at a quality level roughly on par with where we were about 10 years ago, and almost as many planes as we will have.
The North Koreans? When they can feed themselves above starvation levels, then they might be a threat, but it won’t happen in my lifetime.
The Iranians? With their redesigned F-5s? I don’t think so.

I wasn’t a big fan of ending production of the F-22. I thought that should’ve run to about 260–300 aircraft. I also thought that the F-35 should’ve been cancelled and new build F-15s, F-16s should’ve been purchased, but I don’t get everything I want.
I’ll say this, and I hope I’m wrong–I work for the Air Force in my civilian job, and certainly under previous leadership anyway, it has seemed to me that the AF was more interested in beating the Army and the Navy in the budget game and public relations, and roles and missions issues than it has ever been in supporting the Army. That said, I’m alive today because of a pair of A-10s showed up one day in Afghanistan.
But I note that the AF wants to replace the A-10 with an F-35 that will carry fewer stores and a smaller gun with a higher minimum speed than the A-10

@Stephen
Don’t bother with Jim. He’s the anti-Obama jukebox.
Even if you don’t like Obama, you too will soon tire of Jim’s one-note repetoire. You could take any of his previous posts in any forum and simply cut and paste. There’s no difference. Hell, he probably does that himself.

pfcem wrote:

> …Image how pathetic our armed forces would
> look if after procuring 200 F-15 Eagles we…
> went back to “upgraded” F-4 Phantoms OR after
> procuring 2000 M1 Abrams we…went back to
> “upgraded” M60 Pattons

Nobody is proposing the equivalent of going back to F4s or M60s. But, we are eliminating a VERY expensive weapon system in the F-22.

We’ve eliminated expensive weapon systems before that had dubious value, such as the F-103, F-108, B-70, A-12, MBT-70, and Cheyenne attack helicopter. Eventually, we fielded weapons that were much more versatile and cost less to procure and maintain, such as the F-15 and F-16, F/A-18, M-1 Abrams, and AH-64. Upgrades to the B-52 made it — and continue to make it — a viable platform. The B-1 and B-2 are very expensive systems, but have probably proven their worth.

BTW, we *did* continue to upgrade the F-4 and M-60s to keep them viable; F-4G, M-60A1, M-60A2, and M-60A3.

“I’m not sure how much credibility I give Cartwright, who never saw an advanced program he didn’t want to kill. He gives the impression of still being irked that they took his M14 away”===
Having served w/Both Gen. Cartwright and LGen. Hough(ret.), both very accomplished in their own right, and being admittedly biased in their favor, I feel secure in relaying that as a superb aviator, Cartwright’s attachment to his M-14 was soon lost after Quantico.
Bios are easily available online.
Regardless of anyone’s opinion, I find it difficult to believe that any general officer would put the nation at risk except for those that are too eager to go to battle, ‘just in case’.
That’s not to say that there aren’t those that will say or do anything to secure that plum position after retirement because after all, that’s the way of the capitalist world. Not that there’s anything wrong with that! (Seinfeld)

Good Evening Folks,

Mr. Fukuyams seems to have missed his own point, the Cold War is over. The U.S. won our two main opponents squandered so much of their economies trying to compete with the United States the are exhausted and will be for decades to come.

Meanwhile the United States has found it self hotly fighting three wars against stateless enemies that have not been able to adequately convince our arrogant Generals, Admiral and Civilian officials Pentagon that they are real enemies.

While all this is going on the United States military industrial complex that neither understands no can see the military application of the current explosion in technologies.

The senior uniformed Generals and Admirals are clueless about war fighting, most of the ranking three and four star ranks have never been in combat appear to as a group lack the intellectual capability to understand the dynamics of what is happening.

Industry has no reason to change things, they have consolidated themselves and a have grown fat and sassy with contracts for Tanks, Boats and Planes that will be decades in development, which provides study cash stream with little overhead for their investors from a corrupt Congress. The fact that when the uber expensive weapons platforms/systems do go into production and the military is trying to write a doctrine for the weapon/system instead of a war fight doctrine is of no concern to the contractors.

The suggestion by a moron congressman last week that congress forms a committee to explain to members what these defense project are is a sign that the people spending the money don’t know what they are buying and refuse to accept the judgement of the Sec. of Defense who job it is to see that we have what the military needs, when they need it and at a fair price.

We are fighting at least three wars at the moment, we must win all of them, the survival of the nation hangs in the balance. Just because the enemies are not Russia or China doesn’t make these wars less important.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Wow Skinner, you stole some of my thunder…the only thing to add is it seems like damned if we do, damned if we don’t. We’ve been spending money hand over fist on everything that you could dream up in a science fiction movie for almost 8 years and the results are absolutely disastrous. Does that impact the debate……NoooOOOoooooo, of course not, that was yesterday.

FCS, F-22, Missile defense of every flavor, the Stryker, the list goes on and on. Most of it is a joke and 99% of it so expensive and unrealizable that I’ll eat my hat if you can show me how it’s better than equipment that exists today and is 1,000 times cheaper. What’s next, guided bullets….(OOPS! Darpa’s doing that right…..)

Why do some brand you a traitor or bleeding heart liberal if you object to the current policy of piling up our money and burning it as a sacrifice to the almighty God of Security?
If you suggest that we get results from our contractors and you get lobbying efforts that claim accountability will claim 1,000,000 jobs. Suggest that we stop developing weapons to counter imaginary armies and air forces and someone at RAND publishes a study that say the Martian Spacecraft to F-22 Kill rate isn’t high enough, and Grandma will die if we don’t buy 1000 more. (you love your grandmother….don’t you?)

I’d like to believe that at some point we the people would wise up, tar and feather these d-bags and fix the system.……but unfortunately I work in the system. We’ll continue to publish studies devoid of the facts, promote incompetent Generals, and elect a congress who always falls for “but if you give us another few billion we can do it…WE PROMISE!” And when they get their billions and nothing works but one subsystem of a completely incoherent and irrelevant construct, they’ll throw a party, and claim victory!

Pennst98:

Barry osbama current policy is piling up our money and burning it as a sacrifice to the welfare queens, public sector unions and other good-for nothings, (otherwise known as the Democrat base) at the price of what government is supposed to do:

PROVIDE FOR the common defense…

@dow
…promote the general welfare…

And you’re not providing for the common defense when you’re wasting money on shit that doesn’t work. I can’t find the ‘waste money on shit that doesn’t work’ clause in the Constitution.

Ummm, wow dow, thank you for the rhetoric with a lack of any real information to back up your misguided opinion. Welfare hasn’t been increased. No money has or will be provided to unions. The only thing you could call “welfare” is the bailout effort that started under the conservative Republican administration. Even they were able to see that if the government didn’t bailout the crumbling financial industry (dare I say “provide for the common defense of the economy and country”) that the spiral would continue and our country would become fodder for those countries that favor Communism. “Look what happens when you allow companies to police themselves. They bring down nations”.

back on topic: spending 4.6% more on defense doesn’t sound like a bad thing. The R&D budget for the DOD could stand a little trimming. What are they researching? What big problem do they need to address? In the past we had goals. Planes that flew higher and faster were developed to counter intercept craft. Stealth was developed to counter next generation SAMs. MIRVs were developed to counter ABMs. What do all these things have in common? They are cold-war point-counter-points.

Now we have a new style of war. There are no more super-powers to compete against, yet we are spending billions countering non-existant threats. We need that money to go towards the world that exists today: a work of asymmetrical combat with countries that lag behind us in technology.

If a new super-power begins to emerge, we can start to spike the spending on R&D again, but I can’t see why we would continue to pour money down the rabbit hole when we don’t need to. Spend the money where it’s needed, on military personel and keeping our military in shape to fight.

Keep in mind, R&D isn’t going down to $0. It’s being trimmed to more reasonable levels. This is necessary. Hell, McCain has been voting for these funding changes and spoke out against the F-22. Seems like no matter which party is in power, the budget was going to be shifted away from Cold War spending.

“But the Defense Department is spending less and less on what is usually called its seed corn — science and technology. In budget parlance, this is known as 6.1 money.”

Okay here’s a shocker. That “seed money” is just a jobs program for various small industry firms, academia, and government labs. Back before 1960, this work probably was necessary as there wasn’t a big military-industrial complex (such that it is today). But look at the numerous defense projects we have — what happens is that industry steps in with a prototype that they developed on their own dime, inserts into 6.3/6.4, and it becomes the Next Big Thing. The “best and brightest” aren’t in govt anymore, and as a result the good ideas and projects come from outside. So why get upset about this?

As others have stated, the Cold War is over. Our defense acquisition program needs badly to reform as well, but interested parties like how it works to their advantage now. We’ll easily dominate the battlefield in terms of both numbers and technology — that’s not been the problem. It’s been policy and strategy that have prevented the rapid conclusion of militaru operations. And when you spend a decade focused on military operations, of course the acquisition side is going to suffer.

We need a new approach. Obama’s not going to offer it, not because he’s a liberal fascist socialist nazi Islamic-fundamentalist Illuminati leader, but rather because he’s a centrist and recognizes that trying to change the process will stop him from actually getting work done. Maybe in his second term…

Warren: The examples you cite were either cases of sheer overreach (Mach-3 interceptors, A-12) or cases where a program spent so long in development that technology overtook it (Cheyenne, B-70.) Obviously the F-22 was within our capabilities; and even its most serious detractors can’t argue that it’s not the state-of-the-art.

“Upgrades to the B-52 made it – and continue to make it – a viable platform.”

It’s a viable platform in a no-threat environment. Ask the Rolling Thunder boys how well the B-52 does when there’s opposition.

“BTW, we *did* continue to upgrade the F-4 and M-60s to keep them viable; F-4G, M-60A1, M-60A2, and M-60A3.”

The F-4G wasn’t an “upgrade”, it was a completely different mission package. The M60A2 was a completely different vehicle that they called an “upgrade”, in the time-honored budget dodge. (Do you even know what you’re talking about, here?)

And nobody ever considered the M60A3 to be a serious contender; it was just a way to fill out the armor-unit TOEs while they waited for the M1 to show up.

I am reminded of the Parkinson’s Law, “Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.” so there will be a requirement for more Acquisition Labor as less is actually acquired. An modern example of this is amount of acquisition and proposal work has been put into the Next Generation Tanker for the number of vehicles acquired between 2001 and 2009.

This is further borne our by his Coefficient of Inefficiency. This maxim states that the more people involved with a decision the less important the decision will become.

The Interesting item about Parkinson and his laws is that even Gorbachev stated that his laws work everywhere. Our only hope is to spread these laws to out asynchronous foes. This will avoid the need to acquire any hardware.

Our winning solution in asynchronous warfare is to send the Taliban and Al Kaida some out of mercenaries, work merchant bankers and efficiency experts. The Black Water mercenaries will alienate them from their population. The Merchant bankers will squander their money in ponzi schemes and the efficiency experts will organize them into committees to consider action to take in the future and publish minutes.

@soonergrunt

In the constitution “promote the general welfare” refers to the states not the people. It does not mean that the federal government should provide health care, medicare, education, or any of the other social programs.

@brian
I don’t know what constitution you’re reading, but the US Constitution says, in its preamble,
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.“
The constitution does NOT refer to the states as the agents of social programs. It specifically states that to “promote the general welfare” was one of their prime goals in the creation of a federal government.
Nothing that I can find in the Preamble, or any of the articles or ammendments supports your position. Where does it say this?

If the M60A2 with the armament upgraded to a 152 gun/missile launcher is a completely different vehicle from the M60A1, does that mean that the upgunned M1 (with the 120mm) is a completely different vehicle from the M1 armed with the 105?

No, Rick. The M1, M1A1, and M1A2 all use the same technology. The A2 just happens to win the game of “see whose is bigger.“
The difference between the M60A1 and the M60A2 is the difference between a tank and a tank-destroyer.
They were almost completely different vehicles, from cannon/missile launcher to fire control system.
They really should’ve had a different nomenclature for something so radically different.

secondary to my last–the 120mm smoothbore cannon was introduced on the M1A1.

soonergrunt,

What off the wall metric are you using to claim we have not won in Iraq. Perhaps you have not heard that we have turned over the security of cities to Iraqi security forces. Or how historically LOW our casualties have been. Or how well Iraqi election have gone…

***

Warren,

Read the article! And Todd Harrison is not the only idiot to put for the the ridiculous notion that we should cut procurement of “next generation” systems & instead go back to procuring previous generation sytems.

The F-22 is NOT very expensive! And it would be even LESS expensive if we procured a significant number more of them than that have been (hell, it would have been less expensive if we had been procuring more than a pathetic 20 per year). The F-22 is NOT an expensive weapon systems before that had dubious value. It is the MUCH needed (in fact overdue) replacement for the F-15 (which has ALREADY been flying with significant flight restrictions just to keep them airworthy for more than a decade).

Without the B-1 & B-2, the B-52 is NOT a viable system.

People are not talking about upgrading previous generation systems while they are being replaced by new systems (you can’t replace them overnight after all), they are talking about cutting the procurement of news systems & going back to procuring OLD ‘upgraded versions’ of OLD systems.

***

pennst98,

Becasue we are NOT piling up our money and burning it as a sacrifice to the almighty God of Security. We are piling up our money and burning it as a sacrifice to the almighty Gods of Socialism & special interests.

This is all disgusting a sad direction of the way our country is heading. The end of acquisition? Might as well be the “end of America as a superpower.” I suppose it really will be the godless liberals to blame in the end.

We must put a halt to this slash defense BS. We NEED aircraft like the F-22, we need new submarines, new ships, new AFVs, and new guns. We cannot sit idle and hope our old equipment is enough for the future.

I don’t give a damn about some idiotic health care scheme that is bound to fail or all of the vote buying nonsense these morons want to spend defense dollars on!

I know many with jobs in the industry, who have focused their education and effort in the field. What the hell are they supposed to do? What is the message going to those serving in the military? “Sorry, we can’t buy you the best equipment because we gotta build a shrine to Ted Kennedy.” Again, it is just disgusting.

And we armchair generals also need new equipment to discuss too.

Exactly WHO has suggested cutting defense spending?
Really, who has done that? Not only did we NOT cut defense spending, but we increased it at a rate exceeding inflation, and a damn sight higher than that idiotic concept of tying it at 6% of GDP–which shrank with the economy.
And I’ll note for the record that your ideas of what we NEED to spend money on aren’t the same as everybody else’s ideas–or did the concept that you live in a democracy escape you?
You didn’t add ANYTHING to the argument just now, except one point (everything else is opinion with no back up at all.) That one point is “I know many with jobs in the industry, who have focused their education and effort in the field. What the hell are they supposed to do?“
That sounds like you’re advocating defense spending as social welfare…
Military personnel will continue to do their jobs as long as we get paid, our families get taken care of, and we get our spare parts and ammunition. No one here is suggesting, or has suggested that we won’t continue defense procurement. As a matter of fact, we’ll probably be at least, if not more OK than we were after hearing about we go to war with the Army we have instead of the Army we wish we had, when we want to know about lack of vehicle and body armor.

Cutting F-22 production, cutting our number of carriers, and cutting some other 50 programs recently is cutting defense. The fact that Obama shifted some numbers around to include war supplements in the base budget doesn’t mean we are spending any more than we used to.

I understand what democracy means and what a republic is. What is your point? I don’t see you adding anything to the argument either. All you seem to be doing is agreeing with everything done by the current administration. This constant argument of “cold war spending” preached by politicians makes no more. There is still a need for all of the items we were procuring back in the cold war and MGV, while a flawed program, was in no way a “cold war design”.

We do need to fix the procurement process, yet fixing does not mean cutting or canceling everything. It means reducing the waste, the changing requirements, the price hikes, and so forth. It does not mean we cut the amount of money available for procurement, research, and development. The actual defense budget, not counting war supplements and etc. is not over 6% of the GDP. And please explain how requiring defense spending to be a minimum % of the GDP is idiotic?

The fact that soldiers will continue to do the job has nothing to be do with this. The fact that we should be supplying our soldiers with the best equipment possible does. There is simply no way we are going to be “more OK” after all of this. The military is going to be in a bad spot and is still going to need plenty of new equipment that we should have been producing years ago.

If you want to talk about “spending on items that don’t work” take a look at the fields in which countless billions have been spent recently. Those areas aren’t defense related.

First, as others have said, the defense budget went up NOT down as people like to keep implying. The only thing that happened was a shift in priorities. Ask anyone who served after 2003 and most will be able to rattle off a list of at least 10 different things that could make better use of a fraction of the F22 money. We sent soldiers on patrols through hostile cities in hummers that didn’t even have doors on them let alone armor to stop an AK round… the greatest military in the world should be taking care of its people first. Keep your soldiers happy and confident in what they’re doing and you will never lose.

The F-22 shouldn’t be involved in that equation however, especially when the F-22 is one of the items needed by the USAF. You can lower production for immediate concerns, but we shouldn’t have killed the whole thing. Either way, body armor and new HMMWVs should have been paid through additional funding, not by cutting important programs for other services.

A good part of the reason behind the lack of body armor and armored HMMWVs was due to Clinton’s “procurement holiday” and the whole idea that rear line units wouldn’t see much combat. The war the Army ended up fighting was different from how they prepared to fight. Rumsfield’s poor planning didn’t help either.

The hell it shouldn’t. The F-22 has no peer competitors now, or in the projected future for reasons I’ve outlined above in another post, so please, tell me–what good has 185 F-22s done me? I’ve had two Up-Armored Humvees blown up underneath me, and I’ve forgotten how many firefights I’ve been in, and those all happened during the administration of your supposed military supporter Bush. We’re still using the same piece of crap M-16 family weapons that were developed in the 1950s for God sake. The F-22 would’ve helped me how, again? How exactly does the F-35, which is supposed to replace the F-16 and the A-10 going to actually replace those platforms for the mission of dropping steel on target for troops in contact? The F-16’s role might be partially replaced, but the F-35 will never replace the A-10, with it’s smaller gun (25mm x180rds vs. 30mm x 1174rds and lower payload (7.5 vs 8.5 tons).
I’ll let you in on a little secret–neither of those airframes, not the F-22 which is available today, nor the F-35 were it available, would actually help me or any other ground pounder, I thought we ought to have 300 F-22s at one point.
The F-22 and the F-35 are, and have been nothing more than a military procurement plan to put money into the hands of the republican party’s biggest donors, at the costs of the lives of hundreds of grunts including more than a few friends of mine when more cost effective, proven platforms that don’t happen to have peer competitors either are still in production.
Anyone who believes differently is a flaming idiot at best.
And one more time with feeling–the government of our country does what the people want it to do, that will expressed in elections. If you want to have everything you want to have, you’re going to have to convince a huge number of people to pay increased taxes to pay for it, regardless of whatever else is going on with the Federal budget. Surely you’re not one of those fools who thinks that we can just magic these expensive aircraft and other systems out of thin air without paying for them? Because that’s what we’ve been doing.
Unless you think that we’re going to be in a constant state of war for the next fifty to hundred years, you surely understand that math is math, 1+1=2, and that the healthcare reform package envisioned will cost less than 1 billion dollars over ten years according to the GAO, which is approximately 1/640th of our defense budget. Hell, DoD lost that much to WASTE in the last three years by their own calculations, which makes healthcare reform the best military readiness program (healthier people make healthier soldiers and workers) this country will have had since the minutemen.

soonergrunt,

What planet are you on? The US defense budget has been SIGNIFICANTLY cut. The only reason why the 2010 number ‘looks’ like it hasn’t is because the Obama administration has included much of the funding for the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan IN THE BASE DEFENSE BUDGET where as in the past war funding has come in supplemental appropriations.

Of course the F-22 has no peer competitors (in service) now, but BOTH Russia & China ARE working on fighters which they hope to be F-22 peer competitors & enter service some time in the next decade. The F-15C is no longer the ‘top bird’ (not to mention that the YOUNGEST was built in 1986) that it once was. That is why we developed the F-22 to replace it — to ensure that we DO have the ‘top bird’ for decades to come.

The F-22 could very well save yours & countless other lives in a possible future conflict by ensuring the US forces continue to work under the air-superiority they have become accustomed to.

The F-35 will replace the F-16 by doing EVERYTHING the F-16 does BETTER than the F-16 could ever do. It will replace the F-16 & A-10 for the mission of dropping steel on target for troops in contact by dropping guided munitions on target from relative safty.

I just love how poeple pull numbers out of their behind for how many F-22s we ought to have. So PLEASE inform us how it is 300 F-22s could do the job that it has been determined requires a MINIMUM of 381 F-22s + 186 F-15Cs.

The F-22 is to replace the F-15C. The F-35 is to replace the F-16 (& many other types). Join the 21st century. The F-15C fleet is ALREADY older than it should have ever gotten & the F-16 fleet is moving more rapidly than previoulsy planned into the same situation. It is idiots like you that would have had us still relying on P-51s in Korea or F-86s in Vietnam, or F-4 Phantoms today. The F-15 & F-16 have ALREADY been surpassed by potential adversary aircraft — we NEED the F-22 & F-35 to restore superiority balance BACK to out favor.

Good God man, the GBO says that the healthcare reform package will cost MORTE THAN $1.6 TRILLION over the next ten years (that is more than $160 billion PER YEAR)! If you want to talk about waste just look at Medicare (the supposed shining light of greatness governement controlled heathcare is to be based/built on).

Sounds like soonergrunt is getting his views directly from Nancy Pelosi’s office. The F-22 and F-35 are evil schemes to pay Republicans? Your insane. The only point I will agree with you on is that the A-10 should have a dedicated replacement eventually.

pfcem wrote:
soonergrunt,

What planet are you on? The US defense budget has been SIGNIFICANTLY cut. The only reason why the 2010 number ‘looks’ like it hasn’t is because the Obama administration has included much of the funding for the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan IN THE BASE DEFENSE BUDGET where as in the past war funding has come in supplemental appropriations.
====================================================================================
That’s how it should have always been. The wars should be included in the base budget or you end up creating huge deficits.

Medicare and entitlements are a mess because voters want to have their entitlements but don’t want their taxes raised to pay for it. Politicians therefore use creative accounting and quick fixes to maintain the status quo, so the public does not have to make any hard choices. Progressives like to proclaim how Clinton balanced the budget, yet entitlements were not included in that fuzzy math.

The defense budgets of the last Administration was very similar to the situation I just discussed above concerning entitlements. The Administration and the populace gave no thought to how invading two countries and the subsequent nation building would affect the rest of the defense budget-and really didn’t care. The President didn’t have the guts to tell the American people that the wars– and the subsequent nation building, would eventually force trade offs (cuts) in defense procurement that many have become accustomed to. Therefore, he created supplemental that masked the true cost of the war while continuing to borrow money to fund procurement and defense programs; essentially racking up huge debts that were not accounted for in the official budget.

That’s essentially the problem with both political parties and the American people. The American people want a world class military with second to none, but balk at the cost of paying for it. So politicians borrow money and run up huge deficits, while turning a blind eye to waste of their darling defense, while trying to cut the other parties pet projects to pay for it. Americans want entitlements and any other free handout they can get (Bush’s drug benefit comes to mind), but balk at the cost of paying for it. So politicians borrow money and run up huge deficits, while turning a blind eye to waste of their darling entitlements (like the President is currently doing) while trying to cut the other parties pet projects to pay for it. Of course both entitlements and defense are racking up huge unfunded deficits and waste, but the American people are going to let it continue, because they want it all-without the costs. The political parties are more than willing to oblige, because waste and deficits only matter when the other party is accruing them.

@ sooner grunt

the fact that you say the ar series of weapons is junk destroys your credibility. more firefights that you can remember? well please write a book. 1 billion for health care reform well puhhleez cite a source for that one lol.

Taking your points one at a time:
“What planet are you on? The US defense budget has been SIGNIFICANTLY cut. The only reason why the 2010 number ‘looks’ like it hasn’t is because the Obama administration has included much of the funding for the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan IN THE BASE DEFENSE BUDGET where as in the past war funding has come in supplemental appropriations.“
the 2009 budget did NOT include supplimental spending for Iraq and Afghanistan. It did include a 5% increase over the previous year’s non-supplimented budget.
http://​www​.nytimes​.com/​2​0​0​8​/​0​2​/​0​4​/​w​a​s​h​i​n​g​t​o​n​/​0​4​m​i​l​i​t​a​r​y​.​h​tml
The 2010 budget hasn’t even been relesed yet, but we do have some information from the Army Times, 05/25/2009 wherein we find that the 2010 budget will be bigger than the 2009 budget, both in terms of baseline $550.2 billion vs $537.8 billion, and in terms of the supplimental funding of $130 billion vs. $69.7 billion. There is no “bridge funding” for this year.
“Of course the F-22 has no peer competitors (in service) now, but BOTH Russia & China ARE working on fighters which they hope to be F-22 peer competitors & enter service some time in the next decade. The F-15C is no longer the ‘top bird’ (not to mention that the YOUNGEST was built in 1986) that it once was. That is why we developed the F-22 to replace it – to ensure that we DO have the ‘top bird’ for decades to come.“
Umm, no. Russia, as I pointed out earlier in this very thread is going to buy 56 SU-35 aircraft over the next few years, at a production rate of one per month. I fail to see how 56 SU-35s, which are no match to the F-22 in ANY regime are a threat to the F-22 force which outnumbers them by 3.3 to 1.
To say nothing of the fact that if the Chinese really hurry up, they can get some aircraft in about 10 years which will be almost as technologically advanced as our planes were 10 years ago. And with these planes that seem to make you want to pee your pants, they will threaten their largest trading partner? The one nation they HAVE to deal with? Really? How the hell, pray, will that work out for them?
As for the F-35 replacing the F-16, it may do so, but it damn sure won’t ever replace the A-10. That mission has to be done down in the weeds. Since you don’t know anything about how CAS actually works, let me tell you. The pilot does not release his weapons without seeing the target and the troops in contact. That means he has to get in close. There is, after all, a reason it’s called CLOSE air support. It’s not Fir Support from relative safty(sic). That gets grunts killed.
As far as the CBO numbers (there is no such agency as the GBO) goes, I misread billion when it said trillion. This is a non-trivial error.
Less than a trillion dollars over 10 years.
http://​www​.dailyfinance​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​0​7​/​3​0​/​w​i​t​h​-​c​o​s​t​-​c​u​t​s​-​h​e​a​l​t​h​-​c​a​r​e​-​r​e​f​o​r​m​-​b​i​l​l​-​b​a​c​k​-​o​n​-​t​r​a​ck/
And the CBO itself has revised it’s numbers to show approximately $400 billion less over 10 years than the CBO had previously estimated, due to changes in the proposed legislation as written. http://​cboblog​.cbo​.gov/​?​p​=​315
And as far as Medicare costs going up, you can thank the Republicans. Part D was their baby–the part of medicare that buys prescription drugs, but does not negotiate prices like every other customer of the pharmaceutical industry in the entire world does. When that hole is fixed, you’re looking at somewhere in the range of $400–500 billion per year saved there too.

Problem 1: Congress has grown fat on industry campaign contributions and votes from defense workers. They will fight for pork in their districts.

Problem 2: Industry loves to throw taxpayers money at answers looking for questions: Manned Ground Vehicle, DG-1000 etc.

Problem 3: Defense critics and “reformes” think that a few upgrades will make old aircraft good as new. Instead they will make aces out of enemy pilots and SAM crews.

On the ground, the vehicles don’t really need to change. The spin out’s from FCS are awesome, the MGS was weaksauce. Too light and too vulnerable to IED’s (the sp artillery was a good idea though). More UAV’s are needed, the NLOS missile is desperately needed.

The EEV is needed, but pehaps a re-do may be in order. The Marines amphibs are long in the tooth.

Defense contractors are idiots for insisting on a new track or truck every time computers or missions change. Politicans are even bigger idiot’s for listening to them.

The F-16,-F-15 are done. Stealth or Low RCS is the name of the game. 1970’s era aircraft are just targets. The B-52 and B-1 are exceptions, but even then airframe life will claim them as well. And then they need the F-22/F-35 to survive.

The newer chinese J-10, Su-27/Mig-29 and S-300/400 series of SAMs will kill the teen series of fighters deader than disco.

The F-35 is the only fighter game in town. The light attack craft may save the A-10 and compliment it.

While the M-1 may soldier on, the sun has set on the F-16/15.

pfcem– Enough of this nonsense about “possible future conflict”… Try thinking about ACTUAL CURRENT CONFLICT for a change.

The defense budget is already 3/4– to– 1 trillion $ PER YEAR right now; if you don’t think so, please explain how DHS, DOE nuclear work, and Veterans Affairs (three examples of many not included in the baseline) are not defense related. You can latch on to one typo in soonergrunt’s numbers (it’s clear what he meant) if you like, it doesn’t change the fact that you’re proposing fiscal and social ruin for this country, for what? So we can march around the world killing bad guys?

Our domestic problems are fundamental and serious. They need dealing with right here, and right now, or we’ll never even get on the field for your hypothetical next war.
_________________________

soonergrunt and Drake1– Doing some great work in these comments, keep it up!

@mike j
Thanks for the support, but I really DID read ‘billion’ instead of ‘trillion’ and ran with it–“1/640th of defense…“
Corrected numbers do not change my premise though.
We either fix the things that are wrong in this country or we don’t. But if we don’t, we will rapidly slip to a lower status in the world, and all of the shiny, fast moving noise makers in the world will not change that as other countries move to a different reserve currency and our manufacturing base dries up because it’s too expensive to produce here. If we don’t get healthcare spending under control and reduce its share of GDP, we will, within my children’s lifetime, collapse as a country, and become a 21st century version of late 20th century Russia with all sorts of expensive toys laying around and no money, ability, or political will to use them.

heh, and then I overlooked the ‘1/640th’… oh well.

Kinda scary that you can move the decimal that far and still be right.

Here’s the problem–
left unchecked, Medicare and Social Security will, sometime in the 2080s, take up 90% of the Federal Budget to cover the costs that Medicare premiums and SS collections don’t cover. So we can either get rid of Medicare (and that really WILL KILL GRANDMA!!1!!ELEVEN! because she can’t afford private insurance in retirement) or we can fix it, and the rest of our health care industry.
Politi­cians and the media focus on Social Security’s financial health, but Medicare’s future liabilities are far more ominous, at more than $89 trillion. Medicare’s total unfunded liability is more than five times larger than that of Social Security. In fact, the new Medicare prescription drug benefit enacted in 2006 (Part D) alone adds some $17 trillion to the projected Medicare shortfall — an amount greater than all of Social Security’s unfunded obligations.
These numbers come from a variety of sources, like the CBO, and a couple of public policy shops on both sides of the aisle.

Mike J and soonergrunt, I don’t have much time for comments at the moment. Yet how is blindly throwing defense money at these “domestic problems” going to fix anything? We are going to end up with some absurd new entitlements sucking up even more government cash, delivering poor results, and draining money for new equipment. There is a huge list of things the military needs, the F-22 is one of those items. Yet instead of making a smart decision, the liberals naturally shut down the production line rather than keep it open with low rate production.

And war supplements nor veterans affairs shouldn’t be factored into the base budget, considering that when they are, the larger number is used to justify more cuts for research, development, and procurement by the liberals.

ReconTeam–

This Liberals/ Conservatives stuff isn’t helpful. It’s much more useful to say we have a two-faced party of the establishment, then we can find some common ground. You’re correct that many defense-related programs are not included in the defense budget for totally political reasons.

The F-22 is dead. It was already effectively dead under the previous ‘pro-military’ administration. Time to move on.

Now, who saying we’ll just throw our money away on domestic programs without thinking? That *might* happen, there’s no reason it *must*. The only thing that must happen, is these fundamental problems get fixed, for the reasons given. We will not be able to afford any military at all, if we fail at this. Americans have to take responsibility for the decisions being made in our name.

soonergrunt,

The FY2009 budget was the last BUCH ADMINISTRATION BUDGET. The FT2010 budget is the FIRST OBAMA ADMINISTRATION BUDGET. True the final FY2010 budget has not been released but preliminary FY2010 budget numbers HAVE. Numbers that INCLUDE cuts to MANY programs (not just cuts TO programs but programs BEING cut) & the inclusion of funds for the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan.

Russia is indeed procuring a number of Su-35s over the next few years AS A STOP-GAP to production of the PAK-FA (its ‘F-22 peer’ 5th generation fighter) which it hopes/plans to have in serial production in 2015. And China’s ‘F-22 peer’ 5th generation fighter is claimed to be just a couple few years behind the PAK-FA. And there are ALREADY potential adversary fighter IN SERVICE TODAY that are superiot to the F-15 & F-16 (with these CURRENTLY in developemen ‘F-22 peer’ 5th generation fighters being even better)!

Yes, the F-35 WILL replace the A-10. This is the 21st century. CAS is now done by dropping guided munitions on targets from the relative safety of medium altitude. Get over it.

reconteam–
“Yet how is blindly throwing defense money at these “domestic problems” going to fix anything?“
How is it ‘defense money’? Is there some federal law or clause of the constitution that I missed that says we have to spend a set fraction of resources on defense?
“And war supplements nor veterans affairs shouldn’t be factored into the base budget, considering that when they are, the larger number is used to justify more cuts for research, development, and procurement by the liberals.“
So it’s liberals faults the things that veteran’s spending has always been part of the defense package, even under republican congresses and presidents? Wow–that’s incredibly intellectually dishonest, mendacious, crass, and downright stupid.
The concept that the war supplimentals, which did more to pay for procurement of capital end items than the war itself shouldn’t be folded into the budget is more dishonesty. It also ignores that fact that the baseline budget grew anyway. This is like a dishonesty triple play. A mendaciousness hat trick, if you will. A veritable 3-pointer of crassness.
And as mike j pointed out, it was under a republican president that the F-22 production line was closed. I’ll note that this happened even after the democratic controlled congress appropriated more money for more aircraft. But somehow that’s Liberals fault?
Is anyone beginning to see a pattern here? No truth to anything he says, no facts, heck not even a link to some half-assed conservative ‘think tank’ like the heritage foundation or AEI. Just a lot of disjointed sputtering about LIBERALS!!!1!!ONE, most of which is a lie on it’s face, and the rest of it easily discoverable as such with a little searching.
Dude, you have not only jumped the shark, but you fell in the tank and got eated.

pfcem–
The PAK-FA? Again, REALLY?
A plane that hasn’t had a single prototype fly at all yet? A plane whose engines are having problems that require further research as of two weeks ago?
A fifth generation all aspect stealth plane from a country that hasn’t been able to produce spare parts for its current obsolete inventory, let alone new aircraft at anything other than a hand-built pace for an entire generation? And assuming that any of this works they might be able to enter production in 10 years?
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​S​u​k​h​o​i​_​P​A​K​_FA
Color me singularly unimpressed. The chicken little routine over a product that doesn’t exist from a nation that can’t build it sure isn’t a reason to waste a whole bunch of money.
“Yes, the F-35 WILL replace the A-10. This is the 21st century. CAS is now done by dropping guided munitions on targets from the relative safety of medium altitude. Get over it.” First point to that one is that we have that capability now, and we don’t do it because it doesn’t work all that well. See, there are these things called clouds that seem to show up whenever it’s bloody inconvenient, and the enemy has a nasty habit of moving around and not staying at one GPS location, and the good guys almost never have lasers and other stuff to guide the bomb onto moving targets, and so the CAS drivers have to get down below the soup and in the weeds and put their eyes on the bad guys.
So I and every other grunt needs to get over the fact that the AF has just unilaterally taken itself out of the CAS game and we get to relearn the lessons of WW2, Korea, and Viet Nam in our next war with the F-35. So, how many dead grunts do you think it will take?
I sure hope that the Armed Reconaissance Helicopter program goes well. The Army’s going to need that capability even more with the Air Force out of the picture.

That’s one of the main reasons why the Army is investing in Odin and Warrior.

soonergrunt: AF taken itself out of the CAS game? What are you talking about? The most-requested CAS platform of the current conflict is the F-15E dropping PGM.

“…so the CAS drivers have to get down below the soup and in the weeds and put their eyes on the bad guys.”

This doesn’t optimize to the A-10; this optimizes to the AH-64.

I never said it was optimized for A-10(the whole point of odin is too avoid relying on the AF), but its existence gets to the heart of what soonergrunt has been saying about AF responsiveness to ground unit needs. Despite the AF assertion that they should be the “primary manager of all medium– and high-altitude unmanned aerial UAVs”, the Army has been steadily plodding ahead with Task force Odin which happens to use Apaches and UAVs.

–and surveillance aircraft.

soonergrunt,

FOUR PAK-FA prototypes have been built. The 4th having just been completeed or to be VERY shortly (was to be completed in August) & is to take its 1st flight THIS fall (although eve Russian officials are admitting it may slip to closer to the end of the year). Yes Russia’s time table is very optimistic but reguardless of whether they are actually able to keep to it or if it slips EVEN BY SEVERAL YEARS, PAK-FA’s (same goes for China & its J-XX) ARE coming. And AGAIN, even IF the PAK-FA & J-XX didn’t exist (as appearantly they don’t in your dream world) there are ALREADY potential adversary fighters IN SERVICE TODAY that are superior to the F-15, F-16 & F/A-18.

No the USAF has NOT taken itself out of the CAS game, but technology (BOTH on the CAS & the threat side) HAS evolved such that ‘getting down & dirty’ is no longer the way to get it done. Like I said, join the 21st century & get over it.

I’d like a link on that, pfcem.
And trust me when I tell you that technology does not replace simple requirements. They WILL have to get down in the weeds, and they won’t be able to do it as well as they do it today. And grunts will die. There’s enough history on this from WW2, Korea, Viet Nam, and yes, our recent conflicts that this is a very safe bet. They tried this argument before the first gulf war when they mothballed hundreds of A-10s and kept F-16s and the A-10s turned out to be the best CAS platforms. They tried it again–there was a plan in the early turn of the century to pass the remaining A-10s on active duty to the guard and reserve, and they ended up upgrading the platform and keeping it until 2025 instead of getting rid of it in 2010 like they wanted. Now, I’ll be long out of service by then. But one of my children could be in that situation, and so might one of yours. It is certain that somebody’s child will be in that situation.

DDuck–that only applies when you are within range of the Apache’s base. I’ve been farther away from the wire than that and needed air support. And that’s the A-10.

Further–I’ve had F-15E drop JDAM, or more accurately, I’ve been near a JTAC who had F-15E drop JDAM. I’ve also had F-16 and F-15E unable to drop because of too much cloud cover. I’ve had A-10 support more often. A-10 is still a better platform in the fluid fight, in my opinion. You don’t always have JTAC available.

Soonergrunt you are so wrong it is plain sad. We do have military programs are being cut and we have billions being spent on worthless “stimulus” projects, cash for clunkers, this screwed up healthcare plan, and so forth. Some of that money being spent is defense dollars, money that should have have gone towards production of new equipment or R&D.

Stop and think before you post. Veterans affairs are related to the military and DoD naturally, yet usually that money is factored out of the picture when looking at the base budget, because that really has nothing to do with maintained, enlistment, research, procurement and development. Why on earth do you think war supplements should be included in the base budget? It is not the military who makes the call to go to war and if we want to win we need to step up the cash flow. War costs shouldn’t be subtracted from the budget used to buy new equipment and so forth. It is not a healthy policy. What don’t you understand about that?

Are you truly so blind? Have you failed to read other recent on DodBuzz? Discussing cutting our number of carriers, Navy and USAF fighter gap, missile defense canceled and so forth. The liberals in all parties (particularly the Dems) have been trying to reduce the size and capability of the US military since before the Soviet Union fell. We have a very liberal president, and a foolish congress with a Democratic super-majority. A party led by people like Nancy Pelosi, and lacking strong political opposition at the moment. We are seeing the effects of that now, and the military is going to take more hits than this.

Oh and why are AEI and the Heritage Foundation “half-assed conservative think tanks?” The policies they propose make far more sense than our current policies you have evidently embraced. Stop the name calling you damn hypocrite and tell me why our current defense policy is a good direction?

Regarding the PAK-FA read this article. Confirms three prototypes have been completed. The fourth prototype which will take the first flight is almost ready.

http://www.russiatoday.com/Sci_Tech/2009–08-13/deter-space-strikes-russia.html

Reopen the Colorado and Alaska gold mines and revitalize the oil production in Alaska, Colorado, Texas, Utah and other States. Start oil exportation. These gold mines is what the government needed to battle the recession and strength to our military modernizations.The mines are used during the recession and war on the old times.

The point of all that is that your whole schtick is “LIBERALS LIBERALS LIBERALS!!!!! WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!!! GODLESS LIBERALS!”

In answer to your last, before I return to this point, you are partially right…
“We do have military programs are being cut and we have billions being spent on worthless “stimulus” projects,“
DoD, led by a Republican SECDEF ended F-22 under a Republican president, again, even as a Democratic controlled congress was preparing to add money to the program for 20 more airframes, and did, in fact add money to the program for 4 more. And we cancelled FCS vehicles because they didn’t work AND LET THE ARMY KEEP ALL THE MONEY THEY HAD BUDGETED. The Navy has a 52-year-old carrier they want to cut two years early and there is a lot of pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth. Information Dissemination, a non-partisan blog focused on naval operations and strategy goes a little bit deeper into the story at: http://www.informationdissemination.net/2009/08/dropping-carrier-requirement-to-10–9.html
and we learn that this was actually pretty much inevitable, only you would have everyone believe that it’s the liberals fault, apparently because Nancy Pelosi wasn’t spending enough time assisting the engineers to overcome the problem with the new electromagnetic aircraft launching system that has caused CVN-78 USS Gerald R. Ford to slip at least a year to the right.
And I could go on and on and on, but I’ll address the part where you are really wrong–you know, about the stimulus-that bill advocated by a Republican Chairman of the Federal Reserve, passed and executed by a Democratic Congress–
From that bastion of liberalism (snark) the Wall Street Journal, an article titled “U.S. Economy gets lift from Stimulus“
http://​online​.wsj​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​S​B​1​2​5​1​8​5​3​7​9​2​1​8​4​7​8​0​8​7​.​h​t​m​l​#​p​r​i​n​t​M​ode
Some of that evil stimulus money came through DoD: http://​www​.recovery​.gov/​?​q​=​c​o​n​t​e​n​t​/​a​g​e​n​c​y​-​s​u​m​m​a​r​y​&​a​m​p​;​a​g​e​n​c​y​_​c​o​d​e​=97
And at the head of the pack of the numerous economists mentioned in the WSJ piece is Paul Krugman, who won the Nobel Prize in Economics last year.
http://​www​.nytimes​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​0​8​/​1​0​/​o​p​i​n​i​o​n​/​1​0​k​r​u​g​m​a​n​.​h​tml
http://​www​.nytimes​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​0​8​/​2​8​/​o​p​i​n​i​o​n​/​2​8​k​r​u​g​m​a​n​.​h​tml
http://​www​.nytimes​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​0​8​/​2​4​/​o​p​i​n​i​o​n​/​2​4​k​r​u​g​m​a​n​.​h​tml

So, having dispensed with the nonsense about “worthless stimulus projects” we’ll move forward.

Whether you like it or not, Veterans’ Affairs is part of defense spending. You conveniently didn’t address my post on that regarding the fact that it’s always been that way no matter who was in charge. I’d like an actual answer to the point I actually made. I’ll lay cash money that you never complained about this during the last administration, and probably didn’t care that VA was underfunded from 2001 to 2006 (its funding having been increased under Democrats.)
And yes, Heritage and AEI are half-assed conservative think tanks. They exist not to create the best policy for the country, but to create policies that further the goals of the conservative movement. But at least they make an actual policy-based argument, which is more than you do–which brings us back to where we started.
In this very thread, you said “I suppose it really will be the godless liberals to blame in the end.” and “Yet instead of making a smart decision, the liberals naturally shut down the production line…” and “The liberals in all parties (particularly the Dems) have been trying to reduce the size and capability of the US military since before the Soviet Union fell. We have a very liberal president, and a foolish congress with a Democratic super-majority. A party led by people like Nancy Pelosi” and I’M THE DAMN HYPOCRITE?“
And what is it with this fear of Nancy Pelosi? I never saw any liberal or Democratic leader before her get all the crap that conservatives give her, and she’s not even very effective. The only difference that I can tell is that she’s a woman. I won’t speculate as to the meaning of that. The answers are either too pathetic or too disturbing.

You know, you have shown in other threads your ability to think critically and to engage in actual debate and offer constructive stuff. I believe I have as well, but I’m sure that opinions vary. But you jump in here with a bunch of LIBERAL, LIBERAL, LIBERAL, GODLESS LIBERALS!!!!!”

<damnit–hit the enter key…
so, where was I? Oh, yeah…
But you jump in here with a bunch of LIBERAL, LIBERAL, LIBERAL, GODLESS LIBERALS!!!!!” which does NOTHING to advance the conversation. What was your goal with that? Were you trying to piss somebody off? Get some affirmation for your political beliefs sinc your party has had its ass handed to it in the last two elections? Shut down the conversation? Because it damn sure wasn’t about policy prescriptions or technical discussions or any of that kind of stuff.
You know, I’ll engage on as high a level as anyone else will, but when people bring that crap out, the intent is almost always to shut down opposing viewpoints and control the conversation. I used to have to put up with that crap when Bush was in charge and the Republicans ran everything (and conservatives like congratulating each other all the time and badmouthing people who disagree with them instead of engaging them), because as a soldier I didn’t think I should badmouth the CinC. It’s bad form, unprofessional, and sometimes just flat illegal. But I’m not under those strictures anymore, and if anybody who posts stupid shit like that gets their feelings hurt when I call them on it, I don’t really care. I’m not going anywhere. The good old days of badmouthing liberals and Democrats in an unchallenged conservative circle jerk are over.

Ya know? Think this through:

The people who bitch about liberals are the same ones who advocate building this huge trillion-dollar military machine. Idea being, we’ll stomp the guts out of anyone who opposes us, but wrapped up in that is this altruistic idea that the world ends up being a better place, through the use of our righteous military force…

So, we spend billions of US taxpayer dollars… to make the world a better place…

Granted, we’re doing it with rifle fire and explosives instead of some limp-wristed ESL class or micro loans, but yeah.

Congratulations guys! You’re so reactionary, you forgot to pay attention to what you defend, and you’ve become what you hate. A bunch of violent liberals.

The reason I mention the godless liberals is because they ARE screwing the country over despite your apparently love for them.

The fact that Gates and others were lobbying to kill the F-22 all along doesn’t change the fact that the program was finally killed by a Democrat controlled congress thanks in part to a veto threat from the President! Everybody involved is to blame, but the fact is that the Dems didn’t even try to continue production for the sake of jobs. Even if the government was ACTUALLY trying to reduce our debt the production line could have been easily preserved! They could have just given it those billions intended for this wasteful “cash for clunkers” program.

There has been nothing from congress showing they will oppose further cuts to the USAF and Navy! The FCS vehicles were still firmly in the development stage! Nobody knows if they would have worked or not. And we still have to see the replacement MGV plan. The fact that the Army got to keep that money doesn’t matter when their budget for researching, developing, and producing new weapon systems is shrinking!

Of course the Enterprise has to be retired soon, but CVN-78 is supposed to enter service shortly and bring us back to 11 carriers again! Yet cuts beyond that are being proposed. Retiring one of the Nimitz class would be plain IDIOTIC. Real cuts are not “inevitable” as you claim, and will only be inevitable with this idiotic leadership that is willing just to KEEP PRINTING AND SPENDING BILLIONS for everything NOT defense related!

The stimulus has accomplished nothing worth it’s cost! People are still losing their jobs in the thousands, our debt to China and other nations is growing at an unappreciated rate! Just look at the billions in pork in the bill! I have seen countless projects that don’t create any lasting jobs! The fact that some people are bound to defend the stimulus and their reputations has nothing to do with it’s effectiveness! Over 55% of the country agrees it is not working now and this is the case despite Obama’s cult of personality! All the stimulus is doing is delaying the worst of it and racking up our debt! Yeah the DoD got 2 billion out of a 787+ billion $ bill. I am not impressed, and that money certainly isn’t going to procurement.

I know veterans spending is defense related! Yet it is typically NOT included with the rest of the budget for various reasons. Why should that change? I was pissed with the last administration for some of their mistakes and spending! Their mistakes don’t grant current leadership a free pass! And I noticed you did not address my question of why war supplemental should be included in the base budget. Less money for the Dems to spend on some pet social projects I presume?

Hertiage and AEI are not “half-assed” think tanks when they actually have some facts and common sense to support their policies. They do exist to create policies they view best for the government regardless of their conservative views. Our country is heading in the wrong direction at the moment and most people agree. They try to provide solutions.

Want to know why you are the damn hypocrite? Because your message this whole damned time has been “IT’S BUSH’S FAULT” “BLAME BUSH” “EVIL CONSERVATIVES.” At least I don’t try to hide my beliefs.

Oh and the reason most people hate Nancy Pelosi is because she is a self-righteous, arrogant fool who has no clue what she is doing. Should I even have to explain that? She is matched with Hillary in terms of disgusting people. Although at this rate, perhaps Hillary would have been better than Barack.

I will respond to your second comment later.

I don’t see him saying it’s just Bush’s fault. He’s saying that there is plenty to go around, and blaming just one group is wrong. Yet you continue to lay it all on one group keeping yourself blind to the realities of the world.

Please describe which stimulus you feel wasn’t helpful. The financial bailout stopped tens of thousands of financial jobs from disappearing by providing loans (billions of which have already been paid back) to financial institutions. The $8000 home rebate caused August to be the highest home-sale month in over 3 years and has stabilized home prices. The $3500 — $4500 cash-for-clunkers caused GM and Ford to reopen factories and put thousands of people back to work. Not a PENNY has been spent on health-care, but you keep screaming that it is stealing money from the DoD. It hasn’t even become a solid bill, much less been passed by the demon Democrats.

The only way to keep tax money flowing is to keep people working. If the government didn’t keep the institutions afloat, the hemoraging would have continued for years.

I do find it funny that you claim the F-22 program should have been kept running because it generated jobs, then turn around and bash the stimulus for spending money to create jobs.

And I agree that Nancy Pelosi is the Democratic equivilent of Sarah Palin. Both like to act like they are all knowing, yet in truth they are figureheads trotted out to be “leaders”. Both parties are loaded with people like this, most of them just aren’t standing in front of a camera every 30 minutes.

Just to wrap things up a bit, lest you drop me in the neat little categories you seem to have for everyone:

I support the stimulus packages of both Bush and Obama.
I support the bailouts of both Bush and Obama.
I support the cutting of the F-22 and FCS. Even the Army said the FCS wasn’t working out.
I do not support cutting the defense budget. A minimum increase equal to inflation should be maintained. Oddly enough, the “godless liberal” in office increased defense spending in 2009 (don’t keep fighting against this fact).
I support reforming the procurement system so the budget is spent on meaningful projects instead of cash-sucking black holes.
I do not support universal health care. The government shouldn’t become a health-care provider.
I support reforming the health industry through regulation and incentives. The health care industry has less regulation than the communication industry, which is insane given that it’s literally life-and-death.

Government doesn’t know how to handle money. It never has. This isn’t a liberal problem or a conservative problem, it’s a systemic issue. Those in power 6 years ago and those in power today share the same faults. Mindlessly spouting your same “I love conservatives, I hate liberals” is approaching religious levels of blind faith.

Instead of recognizing any failures of the current administration he tries to blame it entirely on the guys who have left. I am not the one blind to the realities of the world Jeff. Those who are blind are the ones who continue to lead us down this road. When it comes to the military, there is a huge list of things that need to be done. This includes everything from new fighters to modernizing our aging nuclear arsenal, yet none of this is occurring. Nor is anything good occurring when it comes to the economy or society. The Bush administration made mistakes and was a missed opportunity in many regards, but this is far from the “change we need” or whatever was that slogan.

The financial bailouts haven’t stopped countless hundreds of thousands from losing their jobs. It continues to put us ever more deeply in debt, and far too much of the bill was plain wasteful. Pork projects, executive bonuses, and bailing out institutions that repeatedly continue to fail. The amount of money that has been paid back is an incredibly small fraction of the amount we are spending. Cash for clunkers is a fine example of a waste of our money, costing us billions in a program of welfare for the automotive industry. As usual, those of us who actually pay our taxes, our bills, and don’t spend thousands on things we can’t afford our getting screwed. Yet that isn’t nearly as bad as the money being handed out to have banks “clear their books.” Our tax dollars are used bail out fools who get themselves thousands of dollars in debt. Hell, haven’t you seen your own interest rates increase? Besides for the simple misuse of our money, just look at the jobless rate, far more people are without jobs than the administration predicted would be the case WITHOUT the stimulus. Saying “less people are losing their jobs than before” is hardly an improvement. Whatever effects the stimulus package may have, they are far outweighed by the sheer amount of waste and the debt it continues to pile upon the nation.

That isn’t the reason I am saying we should have continued F-22 production, the real reason is requirements for national defense. Yet if they were so concerned about jobs, they could have kept the program alive for that reason alone, and the country would actually get something out of it.

Sarah Palin may not have been cut out to be VP, but at least she seemed to a decent woman, without the attitude of superiority and arrogance. And she doesn’t have such a position in the government, and isn’t trying to save her ass by accusing the CIA of lying to her, or calling disagreements on healthcare Unamerican.

Yes I do tend to place people in stereotypes, because I find that plenty fit into those stereotypes, and this is the internet after all.

I understood the logic behind Bush’s first attempt at the bailouts, but once it’s effects were seen to be minimal at best, I didn’t support further “corporate welfare.” After all, insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome. I do not support cutting the F-22 program and only supported cutting the MGV vehicles if a superior plan for new vehicles was to be implemented. We have yet to see this. The defense budget shouldn’t be cut any further and nor should war supplements be included in the base budget as an attempt to make it appear larger than it really is. The overall funding has not increased due to the reason. And veterans admin costs are typically viewed as separate and shouldn’t be used in the same manner to justify a decrease in overall funding. Reforming procurement is not about the projects we are spending money on. We still need costly projects like the F-22, Virginia class submarine, CVN-78, and so forth. You can’t built a military around armored cars and infantry alone.

The reason I have badmouthed liberals in this topic because cutting down on defense has been on their agenda for some 20+ years now, and some are doing their best to continue this goal today (while hiding it), despite the efforts of others. The fact that the last administration also spent way too liberally doesn’t help either. “Religious levels of blind faith”? Religion isn’t about “blind” faith, like the kind demonstrated by those who have embraced Obama’s cult of personality.

Soonergrunt, I am not going anywhere either. “The good old days of badmouthing liberals and Democrats” as you put it are not over, in fact over the next couple of years you are going to see more of it. The problems in the procurement system isn’t limited to any political party, but the Dems always have their defense priorities misplaced, and the liberals in any party are always trying to cut down the military.

Oh and Mike J how is wanting a very capable military “reactionary?” Historically it is a wise choice. Just remember three words. “Peace through Strength.”

Jeff Razer,

The US Government spends MORE money on health care EVERY YEAR than it does on national defense!

The FY2009 budget was the last BUSH ADMINISTRATION budget. The FY2010 budget is the first OBAMA ADMINISTRATION budget. And there are significant cuts in defense in the FY2010 budget JUST AS OBAMA PROMISSED THERE WOULD BE even before the financial crisis!

ReconTeam–

re:”…how is wanting a very capable military “reactionary?”

Nice try at redefining terms, there. No, “Conservatives = Good, Libs = Bad” is reactionary. Also, strength is much more than just military capability. We need to be strong in many ways. A wise opponent would simply choose to not engage us militarily and exploit our weaknesses.

Interesting that you can see the folly of ‘cash for clunkers’, but the same sort of corporate welfare to defense contractors gets a pass. When is the cognitive dissonance going to kick in? Do yourself a favor and get out of the right wing echo chamber. Be skeptical of anyone with an agenda.

BTW, Jobless rates are going to lag economic indicators. Don’t be so quick to declare failure. Let’s just hope this isn’t a jobless recovery.

Believe me, I have some real problems with how things are being run, too, but it’s not about left/ right. Much is wrong with the establishment, including both groups, and their sub-factions.

“Instead of recognizing any failures of the current administration he tries to blame it entirely on the guys who have left.“
Instead of actually addressing my posts with anything other than unsupported blather, he engages in even more unsupported blather with the claim of failure by an administration that has been in power less than a year.

Wow. Just wow.

“Yet that isn’t nearly as bad as the money being handed out to have banks “clear their books.”” Umm, that would be YOUR boy that did that. The fact that many of them are now, or have already paid back the amounts they borrowed is just mendaciousness icing on the hypocrital cake.
I suppose now is the wrong time to ask you to at least admit that you’re all for corporate welfare, as long as it’s only corporate welfare you with which you agree? I mean, you already whined about F-22 production workers, and “what the hell are they supposed to do” and now admit you supported Bush’s bailout of the banks and investment houses that got us into this mess, but even that support ended at stabilizing those banks and not protecting an industry that accounts for more GDP than the defense industry.

” I do not support cutting the F-22 program and only supported cutting the MGV vehicles if a superior plan for new vehicles was to be implemented. We have yet to see this.“
Because, you know, it really is Obama’s fault that the Army hasn’t contracted, designed, prototyped, and tested three or four different classes of vehicles in the 76 days since FCS was cancelled on 23 June, 2009.

So apparently, everybody who has a different idea than you do hates this country. Got it.

Mike J, disliking liberals has nothing to do with being reactionary. I am not extremely conservative either. I just hate their policies and goals. And you are right that we have weaknesses, this spending is going to bite us in the ass sooner or later.

What sort of corporate welfare for defense contractors are you referring to? Obviously there are some times when a contract is given to one company over another to ensure competition in the industry, yet that is hardly comparable.

Soonergrunt I did address your posts, the fact that you would rather blame everything on Bush instead of admitting the mistakes of Dear Leader Obama is not my problem. Bush started this “credit reform” business but Obama has spent another few billion trying to bailout deadbeats who will only pay a small fraction of what they owe at best, meanwhile those of us with some fiscal sense get screwed. I am sick of this from both administrations, and the fact that Bush did this too doesn’t mean Obama gets a clear pass.

I did not support continued F-22 production for corporate welfare reasons. USAF requirements and common sense were enough. Yet the fact is if this recovery was supposed to all about jobs, than that is one area they should have funded. Lockheed Martin is in no danger and we would actually get something out of the deal.

What don’t you understand about the concept of throwing money at a problem? If the banks and the housing industry are going to continue to fail we shouldn’t be using tax dollars to bail them out again and again. Sooner or later they would have stabilized on their own anyway. What you fail to realize is that the majority of economists can’t come to any consensus on the stimulus. Some think the worse is yet to come, some say the stimulus had no real effect. With the price of the bill and prior bailouts being well over $1 trillion, these are not the results we are looking for. For a small portion of this spending, there wouldn’t be this fighter gap because the USAF could get the number of F-22s they needed.

The MGV replacement plan is supposed to be shown sometime in the first weeks of this months, I will admit it hasn’t been long, but from the looks of it this Gates will force the Army to use MRAPs out of roles they are designed for.

And again, you make a bunch of statements with absolutely no support.
“What sort of corporate welfare for defense contractors are you referring to?“
“I did not support continued F-22 production for corporate welfare reasons.“
“I know many with jobs in the industry, who have focused their education and effort in the field. What the hell are they supposed to do?“
That was your initial argument. You changed it when you got called on it.
As for your assertion that “that the majority of economists can’t come to any consensus on the stimulus,” that would be wrong.
The Nobel Prize Winner in Economics, Paul Krugman, has, as I have already shown, credited the stimulus package program with preventing a full-blown depression, and allowing a soft landing. If you read more of his stuff, you’ll find that for quite a while he believed that we should’ve spent more than we did.
The only article that I can find that even says anything like what you claim is on CNN Money:
http://​money​.cnn​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​0​8​/​3​1​/​n​e​w​s​/​e​c​o​n​o​m​y​/​N​A​B​E​_​s​u​r​v​e​y​_​m​o​n​e​t​a​r​y​_​f​i​s​c​al/ where it notes that 35% of economists in the National Association of Business Economists (a conservative group) think that current fiscal policy, i.e. the stimulus package, is “about right.” 50% of them do not, thinking that it’s too stimulus-focused, and %20 believe that the stimulus might have actually slowed the economic recovery.” Meanwhile, just about everything else I can find on the subject credits the stimulus package with preventing another great depression. Well, since you wouldn’t be getting anymore F-22s in that case, since tax revenues would’ve collapsed…
From economist Brad Delong:
“Claims that deficit spending doesn’t work in the short run hinge on either (i) rapidly rising inflation so that increased spending doesn’t mean increased production–we don’t have rising inflation–or (ii) rapidly rising interest rates so that the rise in government spending is offset by falling private investment. We don’t have rising interest rates.“
And “I went surfing on the internet this morning and found John Taylor [1] in 2003 as Undersecretary of the Treasury talking then about how Bush’s deficit-spending plan would in the short run “creat[e]… more jobs… encourage [businesses] to invest… elimination of the double tax on dividends will… encourage investment and job creation.… The expansion of the child tax credit and the extension of the 10 percent income tax to more taxpayers are examples of how the tax cuts apply to all income tax payers…” The stuff about how deficit spending helps in the short run–“sustain[s] the recovery” was the phrase Taylor used–makes a lot of sense. Can I have the John Taylor from 2003 here to debate?
I should note that the parts of Taylor’s 2003 speech that talk about how Bush’s tax cuts and deficits are good for the economy in the long-run are politically-motivated bull. Destabilizing a government’s finances so that everybody knows that taxes must go up or there must be a lot of inflation but no one is sure how or when is a very bad thing for a government to do. Deficit spending gives the economy a short-term boost when it needs it–like most of us need that one cup of coffee perks you up in the morning. But it’s not a good idea to drink 24 cups a day, even if Starbucks will sell you the iced drink of your choice after 2 PM for only $2.
It’s a fact that the economists who make a living by selling their analyses of the economy to manufacturing firms that need information about demand and to financial firms that need information about profits are overwhelmingly assessing that the Obama short-run deficit-spending program has been and is being and will be effective. It’s only those economists who make a living by pleasing Republican politicians who are skeptical.“
Jerry Webman, chief economist for Oppenheimer Funds, said last week, on the notoriously Liberal Fox Business, that we had only spent about an eighth of the stimulus package and that the rest of it will spur significant growth over the next year as more of the money is obligated.
http://​www​.foxbusiness​.com/​s​e​a​r​c​h​-​r​e​s​u​l​t​s​/​m​/​2​6​1​4​3​7​6​1​/​g​r​o​w​t​h​-​f​r​o​m​-​s​t​i​m​u​l​u​s​-​p​a​c​k​a​g​e​-​i​n​-​2​0​1​0​.​htm
From Kim Petersen, economist and economic blogger at MSN Blogs:
“In fact, much of the stimulus package hasn’t even arrived yet. Only $60 billion of the $288 billion in scheduled tax cuts has come through, and $84 billion of the $500 billion in spending has been paid. Stimulus spending is supposed to peak later this year or early next year, the Journal reported.
Still, there appears to be little doubt that the economy is in recovery, and the stimulus — love it or hate it — has had a hand in that. But for many Americans still struggling to find a job, it won’t feel like a recovery anytime soon.
http://​blogs​.moneycentral​.msn​.com/​t​o​p​s​t​o​c​k​s​/​a​r​c​h​i​v​e​/​2​0​0​9​/​0​9​/​0​2​/​t​h​e​-​s​t​i​m​u​l​u​s​-​i​s​-​w​o​r​k​i​n​g​.​a​spx

So, since you’ve shown that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about with that particular subject, and you have demonstrated time and time again that your default answer to anything is an un-thinking reactionary right-wingnut response to blame Democrats and Liberals for the problems of this country, including things that are freaking common knowledge to be the responsibility of others or not even a problem at all, and that when pressed, you change the subject or dissemble, that you can’t or don’t back up anything you say with actual facts (even a disputed source would be better than nothing) which seems to be driven more by emotion or some thought about how you think things should be in absence of actual policies or plans that reflect reality–well, I could go on and on and on.
I think we’re done here.

Here we go again soonergrunt. Once again you are making baseless personal attacks because I have offended your political views. How dare I?
First of all, I never said that was my main reason for supporting the F-22. If you had read any of my other posts on other topics, you would see that is not the case. I was pointing out the obvious, that if this stimulus was supposed to focus on jobs, than we should not be cutting defense projects everywhere that are actually producing results.

You shouted the same thing last post, but one economist who won an award isn’t automatically right. Despite what Joe Biden would say there is no consensus that the stimulus has worked. If you want a battle of spamming links, fine.

http://​www​.aim​.org/​b​r​i​e​f​i​n​g​/​b​r​o​o​k​i​n​g​s​-​e​x​p​e​r​t​s​-​a​d​m​i​t​-​s​t​i​m​u​l​u​s​-​a​-​b​u​st/

http://​online​.wsj​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​S​B​1​0​0​0​1​4​2​4​0​5​2​9​7​0​2​0​3​5​8​5​0​0​4​5​7​4​3​9​3​0​0​2​6​5​4​7​0​7​3​2​2​.​h​t​m​l​?​m​o​d​=​g​o​o​g​l​e​n​e​w​s​_​wsj

http://​economix​.blogs​.nytimes​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​0​7​/​1​5​/​f​o​r​g​e​t​-​a​-​s​e​c​o​n​d​-​s​t​i​m​u​l​u​s​-​s​t​o​p​-​t​h​e​-​f​i​r​s​t​-​o​ne/

http://​blog​.heritage​.org/​2​0​0​9​/​0​9​/​0​4​/​m​o​r​n​i​n​g​-​b​e​l​l​-​p​r​e​s​i​d​e​n​t​-​o​b​a​m​a​s​-​f​a​i​l​e​d​-​s​t​i​m​u​l​us/

http://​www​.forbes​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​0​8​/​2​5​/​c​h​r​i​s​t​i​n​a​-​r​o​m​e​r​-​s​t​i​m​u​l​u​s​-​c​o​n​s​u​m​p​t​i​o​n​-​p​e​t​e​r​-​r​u​p​e​r​t​-​o​p​i​n​i​o​n​s​-​c​o​l​u​m​n​i​s​t​s​-​t​h​o​m​a​s​-​f​-​c​o​o​l​e​y​.​h​tml

We can keep finding articles that disagree with each other for the rest of the year if you want. How typical that you say any economist that disagrees is in the pocket of the “evil conservatives”, are you one of those nutjobs who thinks Cheney had some evil plot to wipe out New Orleans? And why do you say “we wouldn’t get any more F-22s in that case?” What really got us out the great depression was World War II, remember? The tens of thousands of jobs manufacturing military equipment were key, cutting programs like the F-22 today, makes no sense at all on the account of national defense foremost, and the economy. Hell, some economists even agree.

http://​www​.forbes​.com/​f​o​r​b​e​s​/​2​0​0​9​/​0​9​0​7​/​o​p​i​n​i​o​n​s​-​s​t​e​v​e​-​f​o​r​b​e​s​-​r​e​s​u​r​r​e​c​t​-​t​h​e​-​r​a​p​t​o​r​.​h​tml

Promising figures on Wall Street don’t prove the stimulus has been a “huge success” Soonergrunt, what matters are jobs and employment, what matters is how much we continue to put ourselves into debt. You don’t just get yourselves out of trillions of debt overnight, and that is a tool our enemies can use against us.

You are the one who doesn’t know what you are talking about soonergrunt, you cling to the policies set by the current administration based solely on the concept that “Bush screwed up so lets let them do whatever they want.” You blindly spew the idiotic, historically foolish, moonbat libtard response to any scenario. You would rather shove words into my mouth than justify how your favorite politicians are screwing around with our military. You would justify terminating or down scaling any program based on “the needs of society” or because you think inferior or outdated equipment is enough. If you would just pick up a damn history book for a moment you would see that our government’s liberals have been trying to reduce the size and capability of our military for the last 20+ years. This is why drones like yourself who would let them go about it piss me off. Shouldn’t you be off rambling about repealing “don’t ask, don’t tell” or something?

I’m not going to lay blame for nor continue this trainwreck, I’m bored of it.

A dogmatic view of our world, and our opposition, has left these arguments disconnected from reality.

Mike J I think I see the reality of all of this far more clearly than you do. If you don’t want to continue this trainwreck you shouldn’t make more snide comments about myself.

What part of “not going to lay blame for” do you not understand?

If you feel persecuted, find a therapist.

Proceeding to say “you and your arguments are disconnected from reality” after saying you weren’t going to continue or lay blame for this rather defeats the purpose. Don’t ya think?

I just observed that you posted that on the 7th, so lets just move on I guess.

Uh, no. Read it again. “OUR world… OUR opposition.” Those aren’t typos.

We get it stuck in our heads that we know things, and it clouds our judgment. Also stops us from listening to each other and taking what’s said at face value.

Well I don’t think you and I are going to come to any sort of consensus here, but from my point of view it seemed you were directing your comments only at me.

I hear you.

I was only commenting on the human condition.

*required

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement