I was only commenting on the human condition.

We get it stuck in our heads that we know things, and it clouds our judgment. Also stops us from listening to each other and taking what’s said at face value.

I just observed that you posted that on the 7th, so lets just move on I guess.

If you feel persecuted, find a therapist.

A dogmatic view of our world, and our opposition, has left these arguments disconnected from reality.

You shouted the same thing last post, but one economist who won an award isn’t automatically right. Despite what Joe Biden would say there is no consensus that the stimulus has worked. If you want a battle of spamming links, fine.

http://www.aim.org/briefing/brookings-experts-admit-stimulus-a-bust/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203585004574393002654707322.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/forget-a-second-stimulus-stop-the-first-one/

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/09/04/morning-bell-president-obamas-failed-stimulus/

http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/25/christina-romer-stimulus-consumption-peter-rupert-opinions-columnists-thomas-f-cooley.html

We can keep finding articles that disagree with each other for the rest of the year if you want. How typical that you say any economist that disagrees is in the pocket of the “evil conservatives”, are you one of those nutjobs who thinks Cheney had some evil plot to wipe out New Orleans? And why do you say “we wouldn’t get any more F-22s in that case?” What really got us out the great depression was World War II, remember? The tens of thousands of jobs manufacturing military equipment were key, cutting programs like the F-22 today, makes no sense at all on the account of national defense foremost, and the economy. Hell, some economists even agree.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0907/opinions-steve-forbes-resurrect-the-raptor.html

Promising figures on Wall Street don’t prove the stimulus has been a “huge success” Soonergrunt, what matters are jobs and employment, what matters is how much we continue to put ourselves into debt. You don’t just get yourselves out of trillions of debt overnight, and that is a tool our enemies can use against us.

You are the one who doesn’t know what you are talking about soonergrunt, you cling to the policies set by the current administration based solely on the concept that “Bush screwed up so lets let them do whatever they want.” You blindly spew the idiotic, historically foolish, moonbat libtard response to any scenario. You would rather shove words into my mouth than justify how your favorite politicians are screwing around with our military. You would justify terminating or down scaling any program based on “the needs of society” or because you think inferior or outdated equipment is enough. If you would just pick up a damn history book for a moment you would see that our government’s liberals have been trying to reduce the size and capability of our military for the last 20+ years. This is why drones like yourself who would let them go about it piss me off. Shouldn’t you be off rambling about repealing “don’t ask, don’t tell” or something?

So, since you’ve shown that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about with that particular subject, and you have demonstrated time and time again that your default answer to anything is an un-thinking reactionary right-wingnut response to blame Democrats and Liberals for the problems of this country, including things that are freaking common knowledge to be the responsibility of others or not even a problem at all, and that when pressed, you change the subject or dissemble, that you can’t or don’t back up anything you say with actual facts (even a disputed source would be better than nothing) which seems to be driven more by emotion or some thought about how you think things should be in absence of actual policies or plans that reflect reality–well, I could go on and on and on.
I think we’re done here.

What sort of corporate welfare for defense contractors are you referring to? Obviously there are some times when a contract is given to one company over another to ensure competition in the industry, yet that is hardly comparable.

Soonergrunt I did address your posts, the fact that you would rather blame everything on Bush instead of admitting the mistakes of Dear Leader Obama is not my problem. Bush started this “credit reform” business but Obama has spent another few billion trying to bailout deadbeats who will only pay a small fraction of what they owe at best, meanwhile those of us with some fiscal sense get screwed. I am sick of this from both administrations, and the fact that Bush did this too doesn’t mean Obama gets a clear pass.

I did not support continued F-22 production for corporate welfare reasons. USAF requirements and common sense were enough. Yet the fact is if this recovery was supposed to all about jobs, than that is one area they should have funded. Lockheed Martin is in no danger and we would actually get something out of the deal.

What don’t you understand about the concept of throwing money at a problem? If the banks and the housing industry are going to continue to fail we shouldn’t be using tax dollars to bail them out again and again. Sooner or later they would have stabilized on their own anyway. What you fail to realize is that the majority of economists can’t come to any consensus on the stimulus. Some think the worse is yet to come, some say the stimulus had no real effect. With the price of the bill and prior bailouts being well over $1 trillion, these are not the results we are looking for. For a small portion of this spending, there wouldn’t be this fighter gap because the USAF could get the number of F-22s they needed.

The MGV replacement plan is supposed to be shown sometime in the first weeks of this months, I will admit it hasn’t been long, but from the looks of it this Gates will force the Army to use MRAPs out of roles they are designed for.

Wow. Just wow.

“Yet that isn’t nearly as bad as the money being handed out to have banks “clear their books.”” Umm, that would be YOUR boy that did that. The fact that many of them are now, or have already paid back the amounts they borrowed is just mendaciousness icing on the hypocrital cake.
I suppose now is the wrong time to ask you to at least admit that you’re all for corporate welfare, as long as it’s only corporate welfare you with which you agree? I mean, you already whined about F-22 production workers, and “what the hell are they supposed to do” and now admit you supported Bush’s bailout of the banks and investment houses that got us into this mess, but even that support ended at stabilizing those banks and not protecting an industry that accounts for more GDP than the defense industry.

” I do not support cutting the F-22 program and only supported cutting the MGV vehicles if a superior plan for new vehicles was to be implemented. We have yet to see this.“
Because, you know, it really is Obama’s fault that the Army hasn’t contracted, designed, prototyped, and tested three or four different classes of vehicles in the 76 days since FCS was cancelled on 23 June, 2009.

So apparently, everybody who has a different idea than you do hates this country. Got it.

re:”…how is wanting a very capable military “reactionary?”

Nice try at redefining terms, there. No, “Conservatives = Good, Libs = Bad” is reactionary. Also, strength is much more than just military capability. We need to be strong in many ways. A wise opponent would simply choose to not engage us militarily and exploit our weaknesses.

Interesting that you can see the folly of ‘cash for clunkers’, but the same sort of corporate welfare to defense contractors gets a pass. When is the cognitive dissonance going to kick in? Do yourself a favor and get out of the right wing echo chamber. Be skeptical of anyone with an agenda.

BTW, Jobless rates are going to lag economic indicators. Don’t be so quick to declare failure. Let’s just hope this isn’t a jobless recovery.

Believe me, I have some real problems with how things are being run, too, but it’s not about left/ right. Much is wrong with the establishment, including both groups, and their sub-factions.

The US Government spends MORE money on health care EVERY YEAR than it does on national defense!

The FY2009 budget was the last BUSH ADMINISTRATION budget. The FY2010 budget is the first OBAMA ADMINISTRATION budget. And there are significant cuts in defense in the FY2010 budget JUST AS OBAMA PROMISSED THERE WOULD BE even before the financial crisis!

The financial bailouts haven’t stopped countless hundreds of thousands from losing their jobs. It continues to put us ever more deeply in debt, and far too much of the bill was plain wasteful. Pork projects, executive bonuses, and bailing out institutions that repeatedly continue to fail. The amount of money that has been paid back is an incredibly small fraction of the amount we are spending. Cash for clunkers is a fine example of a waste of our money, costing us billions in a program of welfare for the automotive industry. As usual, those of us who actually pay our taxes, our bills, and don’t spend thousands on things we can’t afford our getting screwed. Yet that isn’t nearly as bad as the money being handed out to have banks “clear their books.” Our tax dollars are used bail out fools who get themselves thousands of dollars in debt. Hell, haven’t you seen your own interest rates increase? Besides for the simple misuse of our money, just look at the jobless rate, far more people are without jobs than the administration predicted would be the case WITHOUT the stimulus. Saying “less people are losing their jobs than before” is hardly an improvement. Whatever effects the stimulus package may have, they are far outweighed by the sheer amount of waste and the debt it continues to pile upon the nation.

That isn’t the reason I am saying we should have continued F-22 production, the real reason is requirements for national defense. Yet if they were so concerned about jobs, they could have kept the program alive for that reason alone, and the country would actually get something out of it.

Sarah Palin may not have been cut out to be VP, but at least she seemed to a decent woman, without the attitude of superiority and arrogance. And she doesn’t have such a position in the government, and isn’t trying to save her ass by accusing the CIA of lying to her, or calling disagreements on healthcare Unamerican.

Yes I do tend to place people in stereotypes, because I find that plenty fit into those stereotypes, and this is the internet after all.

I understood the logic behind Bush’s first attempt at the bailouts, but once it’s effects were seen to be minimal at best, I didn’t support further “corporate welfare.” After all, insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome. I do not support cutting the F-22 program and only supported cutting the MGV vehicles if a superior plan for new vehicles was to be implemented. We have yet to see this. The defense budget shouldn’t be cut any further and nor should war supplements be included in the base budget as an attempt to make it appear larger than it really is. The overall funding has not increased due to the reason. And veterans admin costs are typically viewed as separate and shouldn’t be used in the same manner to justify a decrease in overall funding. Reforming procurement is not about the projects we are spending money on. We still need costly projects like the F-22, Virginia class submarine, CVN-78, and so forth. You can’t built a military around armored cars and infantry alone.

The reason I have badmouthed liberals in this topic because cutting down on defense has been on their agenda for some 20+ years now, and some are doing their best to continue this goal today (while hiding it), despite the efforts of others. The fact that the last administration also spent way too liberally doesn’t help either. “Religious levels of blind faith”? Religion isn’t about “blind” faith, like the kind demonstrated by those who have embraced Obama’s cult of personality.

Soonergrunt, I am not going anywhere either. “The good old days of badmouthing liberals and Democrats” as you put it are not over, in fact over the next couple of years you are going to see more of it. The problems in the procurement system isn’t limited to any political party, but the Dems always have their defense priorities misplaced, and the liberals in any party are always trying to cut down the military.

Oh and Mike J how is wanting a very capable military “reactionary?” Historically it is a wise choice. Just remember three words. “Peace through Strength.”

Please describe which stimulus you feel wasn’t helpful. The financial bailout stopped tens of thousands of financial jobs from disappearing by providing loans (billions of which have already been paid back) to financial institutions. The $8000 home rebate caused August to be the highest home-sale month in over 3 years and has stabilized home prices. The $3500 — $4500 cash-for-clunkers caused GM and Ford to reopen factories and put thousands of people back to work. Not a PENNY has been spent on health-care, but you keep screaming that it is stealing money from the DoD. It hasn’t even become a solid bill, much less been passed by the demon Democrats.

The only way to keep tax money flowing is to keep people working. If the government didn’t keep the institutions afloat, the hemoraging would have continued for years.

I do find it funny that you claim the F-22 program should have been kept running because it generated jobs, then turn around and bash the stimulus for spending money to create jobs.

And I agree that Nancy Pelosi is the Democratic equivilent of Sarah Palin. Both like to act like they are all knowing, yet in truth they are figureheads trotted out to be “leaders”. Both parties are loaded with people like this, most of them just aren’t standing in front of a camera every 30 minutes.

Just to wrap things up a bit, lest you drop me in the neat little categories you seem to have for everyone:

I support the stimulus packages of both Bush and Obama.
I support the bailouts of both Bush and Obama.
I support the cutting of the F-22 and FCS. Even the Army said the FCS wasn’t working out.
I do not support cutting the defense budget. A minimum increase equal to inflation should be maintained. Oddly enough, the “godless liberal” in office increased defense spending in 2009 (don’t keep fighting against this fact).
I support reforming the procurement system so the budget is spent on meaningful projects instead of cash-sucking black holes.
I do not support universal health care. The government shouldn’t become a health-care provider.
I support reforming the health industry through regulation and incentives. The health care industry has less regulation than the communication industry, which is insane given that it’s literally life-and-death.

Government doesn’t know how to handle money. It never has. This isn’t a liberal problem or a conservative problem, it’s a systemic issue. Those in power 6 years ago and those in power today share the same faults. Mindlessly spouting your same “I love conservatives, I hate liberals” is approaching religious levels of blind faith.

The fact that Gates and others were lobbying to kill the F-22 all along doesn’t change the fact that the program was finally killed by a Democrat controlled congress thanks in part to a veto threat from the President! Everybody involved is to blame, but the fact is that the Dems didn’t even try to continue production for the sake of jobs. Even if the government was ACTUALLY trying to reduce our debt the production line could have been easily preserved! They could have just given it those billions intended for this wasteful “cash for clunkers” program.

There has been nothing from congress showing they will oppose further cuts to the USAF and Navy! The FCS vehicles were still firmly in the development stage! Nobody knows if they would have worked or not. And we still have to see the replacement MGV plan. The fact that the Army got to keep that money doesn’t matter when their budget for researching, developing, and producing new weapon systems is shrinking!

Of course the Enterprise has to be retired soon, but CVN-78 is supposed to enter service shortly and bring us back to 11 carriers again! Yet cuts beyond that are being proposed. Retiring one of the Nimitz class would be plain IDIOTIC. Real cuts are not “inevitable” as you claim, and will only be inevitable with this idiotic leadership that is willing just to KEEP PRINTING AND SPENDING BILLIONS for everything NOT defense related!

The stimulus has accomplished nothing worth it’s cost! People are still losing their jobs in the thousands, our debt to China and other nations is growing at an unappreciated rate! Just look at the billions in pork in the bill! I have seen countless projects that don’t create any lasting jobs! The fact that some people are bound to defend the stimulus and their reputations has nothing to do with it’s effectiveness! Over 55% of the country agrees it is not working now and this is the case despite Obama’s cult of personality! All the stimulus is doing is delaying the worst of it and racking up our debt! Yeah the DoD got 2 billion out of a 787+ billion $ bill. I am not impressed, and that money certainly isn’t going to procurement.

I know veterans spending is defense related! Yet it is typically NOT included with the rest of the budget for various reasons. Why should that change? I was pissed with the last administration for some of their mistakes and spending! Their mistakes don’t grant current leadership a free pass! And I noticed you did not address my question of why war supplemental should be included in the base budget. Less money for the Dems to spend on some pet social projects I presume?

Hertiage and AEI are not “half-assed” think tanks when they actually have some facts and common sense to support their policies. They do exist to create policies they view best for the government regardless of their conservative views. Our country is heading in the wrong direction at the moment and most people agree. They try to provide solutions.

Want to know why you are the damn hypocrite? Because your message this whole damned time has been “IT’S BUSH’S FAULT” “BLAME BUSH” “EVIL CONSERVATIVES.” At least I don’t try to hide my beliefs.

Oh and the reason most people hate Nancy Pelosi is because she is a self-righteous, arrogant fool who has no clue what she is doing. Should I even have to explain that? She is matched with Hillary in terms of disgusting people. Although at this rate, perhaps Hillary would have been better than Barack.

I will respond to your second comment later.

The people who bitch about liberals are the same ones who advocate building this huge trillion-dollar military machine. Idea being, we’ll stomp the guts out of anyone who opposes us, but wrapped up in that is this altruistic idea that the world ends up being a better place, through the use of our righteous military force…

So, we spend billions of US taxpayer dollars… to make the world a better place…

Granted, we’re doing it with rifle fire and explosives instead of some limp-wristed ESL class or micro loans, but yeah.

Congratulations guys! You’re so reactionary, you forgot to pay attention to what you defend, and you’ve become what you hate. A bunch of violent liberals.

In answer to your last, before I return to this point, you are partially right…
“We do have military programs are being cut and we have billions being spent on worthless “stimulus” projects,“
DoD, led by a Republican SECDEF ended F-22 under a Republican president, again, even as a Democratic controlled congress was preparing to add money to the program for 20 more airframes, and did, in fact add money to the program for 4 more. And we cancelled FCS vehicles because they didn’t work AND LET THE ARMY KEEP ALL THE MONEY THEY HAD BUDGETED. The Navy has a 52-year-old carrier they want to cut two years early and there is a lot of pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth. Information Dissemination, a non-partisan blog focused on naval operations and strategy goes a little bit deeper into the story at: http://www.informationdissemination.net/2009/08/dropping-carrier-requirement-to-10–9.html
and we learn that this was actually pretty much inevitable, only you would have everyone believe that it’s the liberals fault, apparently because Nancy Pelosi wasn’t spending enough time assisting the engineers to overcome the problem with the new electromagnetic aircraft launching system that has caused CVN-78 USS Gerald R. Ford to slip at least a year to the right.
And I could go on and on and on, but I’ll address the part where you are really wrong–you know, about the stimulus-that bill advocated by a Republican Chairman of the Federal Reserve, passed and executed by a Democratic Congress–
From that bastion of liberalism (snark) the Wall Street Journal, an article titled “U.S. Economy gets lift from Stimulus“
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125185379218478087.html#printMode
Some of that evil stimulus money came through DoD: http://www.recovery.gov/?q=content/agency-summary&agency_code=97
And at the head of the pack of the numerous economists mentioned in the WSJ piece is Paul Krugman, who won the Nobel Prize in Economics last year.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/opinion/10krugman.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/28/opinion/28krugman.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/opinion/24krugman.html

So, having dispensed with the nonsense about “worthless stimulus projects” we’ll move forward.

Whether you like it or not, Veterans’ Affairs is part of defense spending. You conveniently didn’t address my post on that regarding the fact that it’s always been that way no matter who was in charge. I’d like an actual answer to the point I actually made. I’ll lay cash money that you never complained about this during the last administration, and probably didn’t care that VA was underfunded from 2001 to 2006 (its funding having been increased under Democrats.)
And yes, Heritage and AEI are half-assed conservative think tanks. They exist not to create the best policy for the country, but to create policies that further the goals of the conservative movement. But at least they make an actual policy-based argument, which is more than you do–which brings us back to where we started.
In this very thread, you said “I suppose it really will be the godless liberals to blame in the end.” and “Yet instead of making a smart decision, the liberals naturally shut down the production line…” and “The liberals in all parties (particularly the Dems) have been trying to reduce the size and capability of the US military since before the Soviet Union fell. We have a very liberal president, and a foolish congress with a Democratic super-majority. A party led by people like Nancy Pelosi” and I’M THE DAMN HYPOCRITE?“
And what is it with this fear of Nancy Pelosi? I never saw any liberal or Democratic leader before her get all the crap that conservatives give her, and she’s not even very effective. The only difference that I can tell is that she’s a woman. I won’t speculate as to the meaning of that. The answers are either too pathetic or too disturbing.

You know, you have shown in other threads your ability to think critically and to engage in actual debate and offer constructive stuff. I believe I have as well, but I’m sure that opinions vary. But you jump in here with a bunch of LIBERAL, LIBERAL, LIBERAL, GODLESS LIBERALS!!!!!”