Use FCS Guts: Yakovac

Use FCS Guts: Yakovac

The Army has been pretty tight lipped on the design of its future battle fleet ahead of the release of its omnibus ground combat vehicle modernization plan, expected within the next few days. The service knows its margin for error is pretty small on this one after having spent billions of dollars on the troubled FCS program, only to see it dissected by a legion of critics and then chopped up by OSD.

For the Army’s former acquisition chief, the choices are clear. The critical components that would go inside a future combat vehicle are already at various stages of development thanks to FCS, said retired Army Lt. Gen. Joseph Yakovac, now with the Cohen Group. “Why throw away that money… you have the guts [of the vehicle] already done, you paid for it. Why not leverage it? Then put whatever hull you want on it with whatever level of inherent survivability you need.”

Since affordability is one of the biggest hurdles the Army faces as it tries to modernize its battle fleet, Yakovac recommends sticking with common chassis design for future vehicles. Rolling out separate vehicles, as was done with the Abrams, Bradley and Paladin self propelled howitzer, is a much more costly approach than developing a family of vehicles that share a chassis, power train and other components.


The most costly parts of a fighting vehicle are the internal components — the electronics, computers, software and power-train — not the armored hull, he said. Cost savings would have been achieved through FCS by developing eight common vehicles sharing major component parts and technologies.

It would be a waste of money to re-compete the contracts to develop the “guts” of any future vehicle, Yakovac said, “that was all competitively done… when somebody says lets go back out and recompete everything, well you can, but what’s wrong with the first compete? You already did it.”

He fears that’s exactly what will happen as the Army attempts to develop a new ground combat vehicle (GCV). In the current environment of acquisition reform, the Army may be forced to write up a new program contract and restart at “Milestone A,” which means drawing up entirely new requirements and gaining approval from DOD acquisition authorities to proceed with development. If that turns out to be the case, the Army will not be able to develop a new vehicle within its 5 to 7 year timeframe. “You have some chance if you leverage FCS; you have no chance if you don’t,” Yakovac said, speaking last week at the Center for National Policy in Washington.

The problem with FCS, he said, was that the Army did a poor job of explaining exactly what it wanted to get out of the program. While strategic mobility was always a major design factor, flying fully combat capable FCS vehicles in a C-130 cargo lifter was never part of the requirements. “That was a stretch goal, it was never meant to fly inside a C-130.”

The often stated original 20 ton weight limit for the vehicles was not the “curb weight,” it was the “disassembled weight,” minus the modular armor packages that would be carried aboard other aircraft and added upon landing. The real requirement, Yakovac said, was to be able to assemble a combat ready vehicle within an hour or so after landing.

“We rolled [FCS] out quickly and we didn’t explain it very well,” he said. FCS was intended to provide the Army with a full spectrum fighting capability. Only, when FCS was developed, full spectrum meant something a little different than it does today. Back then, the Army viewed full spectrum battle in sequential terms: the paratroopers of the 82nd Airborne would go in and seize an airfield, and then sequentially heavier forces would be flown in to provide greater punch to deal with the higher end fight. Under that concept, FCS vehicles would be flown in, assembled, and the vehicles would drive off to battle alongside the light infantry, providing needed mobile protected firepower.

Iraq changed the idea of full spectrum, in that light, medium and heavy forces were deployed together in the warzone, simultaneously fighting different missions up and down the conflict scale, Yakovac said. In the face of soaring casualties from IED attacks, survivability rapidly became the key driver in all vehicle design, not strategic mobility.

What does he expect to come out of the Army’s new vehicle plan? Yakovac said he would have to see what the new requirements are. To add an IED blast deflecting V-shaped hull to the vehicles to satisfy FCS critics who say they lack survivability, would mean sacrificing mobility.

Yakovac said future combat vehicles will need increased armor protection to account for the hybrid threat: enemies equipped with advanced anti-armor weapons. That could be achieved by developing modular armor packages that could then be put-on or taken-off the vehicle according to the expected threat.

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Good Morning Folks,

Here we go again. The think tanks put out this kind of garbage to try and get gullible members of congress to fund these worthless, unneeded, unwanted boondoggle defense projects.

When Sec. Gates terminated the FCS vehicles he terminated all of it, if there was any part worth keeping he would of. The FCS is dead it is stinking and so is the process that won’t let it be buried. Prolonging these issues cost the tax payers money and the only ones who benefit either way are the pimping Conservative think tanks and corruptible members of congress.

The sad thing is that this is the process, reprocess that the defense programs go through. A few envelopes to a corrupted Congressman like Murtha and Senator or two and “IT’s ALIVE”. these Conservative think tanks like The Cohen Group are the pimps of the Defense Industry.

I hear that there is plenty of room in the cell block where the king of defense industry corruption Randall Harold Cunningham. I would imagine that you could fill the prison with enough guilty members of congress to hold committee meetings.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

There are some major problems with Yakov Smirnov’s ideas here:

a) SUNK COST: Sunk cost is the notion that money already spent should not effect decisions made going forward. Constantly adding it into the decision making process makes no other idea possible.

b) TOO MANY PEOLE LIKE YAKOVAC in DC: We might as well ask Ryan Leaf to teach us how a pro-bowl quarterback succeeds in the NFL.…HE DOESN’T KNOW; neither do guys like this. They’re political appointees or lobbyists in DoD clothing. They couldn’t buy birth control at Walgreens without screwing it up, yet we keep going to the same stagnant pool of no-talent clows for ideas on deign/procurement.

c) COMMON VEHICLE IDEA MUST DIE: Everyone hears COMMON and gets overheated. Problem is each vehicle has COMPLETELY different needs. Recon, Medical, Command & Control, and IFV’s have about as much in common as tanks, school buses, and mopeds. You’re not saving anything if half your vehicles are woefully underengineered, and the other half are woefully overengineered.

When are people going to wake up to the men, money, and time we waste year in and year out is absolutlely unforgivable.…

Mr. Yakovac,

A common chassis design results in inferior vehicles than separate vehicles for MBTs, IFVs & SPHs. Especially when (as was done with the FCS) your are forcing the larger heavier types (MBT & SPH) on to the smaller/lighter chassis (IFV).

@pfcem
I KNEW we could agree on something!
Why would we spend one more penny trying to make an idea that didn’t work after hundreds of millions of dollars spent in the hope that if we only keep throwing money at the problem, it’ll work THIS time, by God!

And I’ll get a pony!

Gates needs to stop trying to get the Army to use MRAPs as a substitute for other vehicles. Leave MRAPs out of the picture as they should be used on an “as needed” basis.

Even if a common chassis proves more problematic than it is worth, we could certainly have these new vehicles use many of the same parts.

Considering that MRAP was never meant to be anything more than a stop-gap, and everybody has serious problems with using it for anything besides a stop-gap, I don’t think that’s the problem. The problem is all of the time and money we lost being fixated on one problem with the program–the weight of the vehicles. This problem was supposed to have been solved by the creation of newer, lighter armor, among other things.
I think what you’ll end up seeing is a family of vehicles that will have common engines, some commonality among transmissions, and commonality among hotel and service load electrical systems and sensors/optics. They may not all be able to share drive shafts or transaxles among all of the vehicles, but there will be some level of commonality.

pennst98,

It’s disappointing to see your disrespect to a retired Army Lieutenant General. This is the former Army Acquisition Chief. Suspect his qualifications to comment exceed yours as a former disgruntled Army enlisted man.

Now my retired Vietnam vet Command Sergeant Major father-in-law…I would respect his opinion enormously as I would any Soldier who recently served in Iraq or Afghanistan…but then they wouldn’t stoop to calling a retired LTG the things you have.

Regarding your dubious attempts to express an informed opinion:

A) Sunk costs do not need to mean sunk R&D. That work can be applied to larger ground combat vehicles thus saving future R&D costs.

Examples? The Crusader autoloader was applied to the NLOS-Cannon as it can further be applied to the GCV howitzer. Active protection can further protect heavier vehicles in the future, once all bugs are worked out. Hybrid-electric drive will be a necessity on many future vehicles as fuel supplies dwindle and fuel expenses rise.

B) Too many people perform in a clueless, rude manner on the internet without qualifications to pass judgment on others, and without offering constructive exchanges. Boorish behavior discourages others with knowledgeable input from offering otherwise valuable input due to “clows” like you.

C) Please explain why lessons learned by engineering one group of vehicles do not save R&D funds otherwise required to build 6 or 7 dissimilar, separately engineered vehicles trying to survive at nearly identical forward locations on the battlefield.

What do you suppose would happen to a self-propelled howitzer that is hit by an RPG? Do you imagine that no enemy will shoot at our reconnaissance vehicles that are out in front of our main body or screening flanks? Do IEDs pay attention to the Geneva Convention and avoid ambulances? Is it possible you might desire to have your C2 vehicles more closely blend in with other battlefield vehicles so as not to be specifically identified and targeted in a group as they advance?

pfcem, I’m starting to see you defending the F-35, elsewhere. Don’t you think the same principle applies to ground vehicles given the proven Stryker example? Do we need 8 different drivetrains and mechanics trained for each different type?

Perhaps you are correct about the main battle tank, but then why is one group of Soldiers entitled to far greater protection than all other Soldiers on the battlefield?

There is a degree of recklessness in tankers plunging into battle and expecting their infantry, field artillery/mortar, engineer, ambulance, scout, and aviation brothers in arms to plunge into the same kill sacks they bypass and are immune to.

Also, tanks single-handedly multiply forward refueling requirements by exponential quantities (one tank requires the fuel of 4 Bradleys), thus endangering fuel truck logisticians. Believe I just read that something like 44 fuel trucks have been targeted by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Yes, there is great shock value in tanks, but the number of tanks does not need to equal the number of infantry vehicles on the battlefield in the absence of diminished tanks threats throughout the world. Going from two 14-tank companies in a combined arms battalion to just one 10-M1A3 company would retain the shock with less logistics and deployment burden.

A single family of vehicles is unnecessary, perhaps, but one family of vehicles for infantry carriers, howitzers, reconnaissance and surveillance vehicles, and C2V in the 80,000 lbs range could be augmented by modified M-ATV serving as mortar carriers, ambulances/treatment vehicles, and scouts replacing HMMWVs in Recon Squadrons.

I highly doubt you could turn a M-ATV into a mortar carrier given the layout of the vehicle. Most MRAPs are top-heavy enough as it is.

Personally, I believe our next infantry carrier vehicle should have a similar level of protection to our next MBT. If we go for a 40 ton MBT (supplemented by some upgraded Abrams), than I would like to see an IFV with the same level of armor.

C-17 can carry approximately 85.4 short tons. Two Infantry/Mortar carriers in the 35–40 ton class, possibly. 9 to 11 man squads in these vehicles, not including crew if possible. Preferably tracked. Cav Scouts should have something smaller and faster, like M1117 Guardian, or a tracked analog to same.
M2A3 Bradley weighs 30.5 short tons, more or less.

@Byron Skinner

Dead on. The problem with think tanks is that they are populated with people paid to disseminate particular point of view as opposed to actually thinking. They are disguised as academics. But there is no academia there at all, just lobbyists essentially who remember how to write a term paper. I also think lobbyists are part of the problem with military procurement. They have 24/7 access to the legislators and their staffs. That gives them more say so in national defense matters than someone who who has seen war for what it is, and knows what it’s like to be shot at.

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.cm

answer is use two tier family of vehicle

heavy chassis (mbt howitzer ect)

medium chassis (ifv motor carrier maybe assault gun ect)

use common components where realistic the chassis dont have to be identical just use some of the common components,

take a good look at the german puma and swede cv90 and go from there.

mine protection and fuel consumption should be key benchmarks. if the future vision requires a new network and some high speed platinum plated hybrid flux capacitor engine, build those first and then the vehicle so you arnt waiting for a hypothetical lighter armor all knowing network invincibility active protective system and 5000 mpg engine.

Again I think the biggest question is if we go for a full blown 50+ ton set of vehicles? Or something with a 40 ton max so we can get two in a C-17A?

@ recon

i would say that question would be answered by what brigades these would be fielded in. obviously not light, we just bought the strykers so i would advise against replacing them, so that leaves the heavy bcts. as they would be replacing brads and abrams i would say that we should go with the 50+ type. stryker as i understood it was supposed to be the just for the hell of it rapidly deploy able force.

Cole,

Who said anything about needing 8 different drivetrains and mechanics trained for each different type? All I said is that showhorning ALL AFV types into a common chassis results in inferior AFVs to separate dedicated chassis (ESPECIALLY whn you are shoehorning them into a smaller/lighter chassis). I don’t think we should replace US combat aircraft (USAF, USN & USMC + reserves & national guard) with the F-35. It is all good to replace the F-16 with the F-35A, the F/A-18A-D with the F-35C & the AV-8B with the F-35B but don’t fool yourself into think it is a good idea to replace the F-15 (C & E), B-52, B-1, B-2 et cetera (ALL combat aircraft) with F-35s.

The Stryker is a PRIME example of the limited combat effectiveness of light AFVs. The Stryker is a GREAT ‘battlefield taxi’ for giving light infantry some AFV mobility & firepower but is ain’t no replacement for the Abrams & Bradley in high-intensity warfare.

Stop the BS of tankers recklessness in plunging into battle and expecting their infantry, field artillery/mortar, engineer, ambulance, scout, and aviation brothers in arms to plunge into the same kill sacks they bypass and are immune to. They do so such thing. And by the way, I think we SHOULD have some ‘heavy IFVs’ with near MBT armor for those situation when you MUST have infantry fighting right up along side the MBTs ve enemy heavy forces.

Stop the BS that there will never be another war where significant numbers of enemy tanks could be encountered. Not to mention that tanks are good for a LOT more than just taking out enemy tanks.

I don’t like the ‘new’ two armored + two infantry combat teams. Before we had a smaller number of three armored + 1 infantry units & a larger number of one armored + three infantry units. So when you needed a lot of heavy armor, you had it (with basically just supporting infantry) & when you didn’t need a lot of armor but still needed some armor you had units which were primarily infantry (with basically just supporting armor) PLUS you still had the non-aromr units as well.

I TOTALLY agree with the idea of a family of ‘medium combat vehicles’ (which could even include a ‘medium tank’ for those areas where a 60+ ton MBT is not warranted/applicable). BUT you should still have/need ‘heavy combat vehicles’ (MBT, Heavy IFV & SPH) & a ‘light combat vehicles’ (ala Stryker) — not to mention non-combat utility vehicles (HMMWV, trucks et cetera). And you can have degrees of commonality without a ‘one size fits all’ chassis.

Stryker is not really a light combat vehicle. It could fairly be considered a medium combat vehicle, but not a light one, unless you classify light as 20 tons.
Maybe the old Marine LAV 25, at 12.5 tons might possibly be called light, but the stryker at 16.5 tons isn’t.
Neither is the M-ATV which will weigh in somewhere around 16 tons.
The M1151 UAH could be considered light at 7.5 tons.
The M1117 Guardian weighs 14.75 tons, and could be called a light combat vehicle though it’s near the top of the range. There is a stretched version that carries 10 dismounts.
M113A3 at 12.3 tons is a light vehicle. I don’t know why we don’t use more of these.

….“It’s disappointing to see your disrespect to a retired Army Lieutenant General. This is the former Army Acquisition Chief. Suspect his qualifications to comment exceed yours as a former disgruntled Army enlisted man.” — Cole

1st and foremost I don’t feel attacking a man’s ideas is the same as an ad homonym (personal) attack. While I used humor I didn’t disrespect him personally; I attacked an institutional practice of hiring people who aren’t up to the job. If you listen to half their “ideas” you would think they’d gotten all of their knowledge of war fighting from watching Hogan’s Heroes. I could forgive them being promoted beyond their talent, but what I can’t forgive is their promotion of ideas that have long been discredited. (after all isn’t that the job of Republicans and Democrats)

Rank isn’t in itself a problem, hierarchy is a natural progression of human organization. However once you stop promoting based on merit the whole system falls apart. Pretty soon no one is making decision based on what is good for the Army, they’re doing what is best for themselves. This is exacerbated in the military because of the rigid adherence to rank. Pretty soon everything becomes the Wizard of Oz meets the Pentagon. PAY NOT ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE 4 STARS!!

Never before in our history has America had such a professional, experienced, capable, and dedicated Military. These men and women aren’t conscripts. These men and women are professionals that serve, and continue to serve despite GLARING displays of incompetence and mismanagement by those that command them.
I mean do you think we’re going backward in Afghanistan because we have OUTSTANDING strategic minds and leadership? Or is it like your posts which indicated our need for FCS-like interoperable full spectrum non-line-sight superiority Wunderwaffen?

For my experience and money I’d rather have Marshall, Patton, Bradley, and McArthur and go into battle with gear from Vietnam than go into battle with laser guns and hovercraft under these morons. WE DON’T NEED MORE TECHNOLOGY, WE NEED TO REMEMBER HOW TO FIGHT A WAR.

Good Morning Daniel Russ,

The problem as I see with Generals and Admirals, while in uniform they are incapable of making decisions regarding weapons and systems, Doctrine, tactical and strategic decision and have to farm them out to private consulting firms like the Cohen group. The Cohen group works both sides of the political isle, it is funded and support at least in part by the defense industry and vigorously support their interests, that’s OK and thats what the Cohen group is paid for.

But in my opinion the Cohen Group, Cato, Hertiage etc. cross the line when they hire retired flag officers to promote the products of the defense industry both to the politicians and the media as being necessary an vital for our national defense.

Lt. General Yakovac while in uniform and on the tax payers payroll was the Army Acquisitions Chief and his record is nothing to be proud of from the problems with body armor, running out of ammunition, up armored HUMVEES for the troops in Iraq, etc. I could go on but I think I made my point. He was a failure and he cost lives of American soldiers.

No Lt. General Yakovac is selling his military services to whom ever wants to but them and is now an expert on what the Army needs, this is the same guy who couldn’t even get the right boots to the troops in Iraq or Afghanistan or see that in combat troops use up ammo at a voracious rate and permitted the U.S. ammo supply get to the point where the Army had to contract with foreign manufactures who provided ammo that was of questionable quality. Is this the type of general who should be providing the expertise to rebuild the Army? Not!

During the Rumsfeld era 39% of the decisions regard the military including advice on the actual going to war had the involvement of these private think tanks like The Cohen Group. The record speaks for it self. t is noted that the prime architects of the American Fiasco’s in Iraq and Afghanistan Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith when the left the Pentagon peddled their services to the highest bidders.

Sec. of Defense Gates has publicly stated that he intends to cut back on this contracting out of the Acquisition and Planning to something below 26%, I think it should be zero %. What these former uniforms and ranking civilian high officials is do can’t help but bring o question in reasonable American of where their own personal divided loyalties lay.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

soonergrunt,

Forgive me, I was responding to Cole & therefor my comments were in the context of ‘discussions’ we have had in the past (note for example his comment ‘family of vehicles for infantry carriers, howitzers, reconnaissance and surveillance vehicles, and C2V in the 80,000 lbs range’ — the 1st I recal him using such a large number since he is so big on the supposed transportability & fuel savings of significantly lighter vehicles).

For the beneift of you & others who may not have read or recall such previous discussions I will elaborate. [Cole, forgive me for ‘speaking for you’ here. Feel free to eloborat/correct your point of view.] Despite our many differemces of opinion, as others have noted, we actually agree to some extent with reguards to ‘light’, ‘medium’ heavy’ combat vehicles.

My ‘transformational’ army combat vehicles…

‘light combat vehicles’: 20 tons (40,000 lbs) MAXIMUM gross vehicle/combat weight — as in no vehicle exceeds 20 tons. Family of M113A4 Mobile Tactical Vehicle Light-like tracked vehicles. Family of Stryker-like 8x8 wheelled vehicles. ‘Base’ vehicle the (tracked/wheeled) family is based on being 16 ton APC/ICV with optional 4 ton (20 ton total) armor packages.

‘medium combat vehicles’: 40 tons (80,000 lbs) MAXIMUM gross vehicle/combat weight — as in no vehicle exceeds 40 tons. Family of CV90/FCS-like tracked vehilcs. ‘Base’ vehicle the family is based on being 32 ton IFV (less ARMED vehicles being a bit lighter) with optional 4 ton (36 ton total) & 8 ton (40 ton total) armor packages. Includes a 32 ton NLOS-C like 40 cal 155mm SPH.

‘heavy combat vehicles’: NOT identical but very similar/much commonality chassis. A 40 ton 56 cal 155mm SPH (basically Crusader) & a otherwise identical 40 cal 8″ SPH. A 48 ton ‘base’ Heavy IFV with optional 4 ton (52 ton total) & 8 ton (56 ton total) armor packages. A 60 ton MBT (56 cal 120mm main gun, or if/when needed 48 cal 140mm main gun). Plus a related but a bit smaller 40 ton ‘base’ MEDIUM tank (48 cal 120mm main gun) with optional 4 ton (44 ton total) & 8 ton (48 ton total) armor packages.

Starting from a ‘light’ unit, all vehicles being (wheeled or tracked or even mix & match) ‘light combat vehicles’. ‘Medium’ units substituting ‘medium combat vehicles’ in combat roles but still utilizing ‘light combat vehicles’ more utility/less direct combat oriented roles with upgraded armor packages applied as applicable. ‘Heavy/Medium’ units substituting ‘heavy’ SPH & 40 ton MEDIUM tank. ‘Heavy/Heavy’ units substituting 60 ton MBT & (some but not all) ‘heavy’ IFVs.

I realize that in terms of TOE this is rather complicated. With three tanks (32 ton IFV based ‘light’ tank + 40 ton MEDIUM tank + 60 ton MBT), two IFVs (32 ton ‘standard’ + 48 ton ‘heavy’) & two 155mm SPH (32 ton 40 cal ‘medium’ + 40 ton 56 cal ‘heavy’) but with the commonality within each family (& even across families) of vehicles, logistics/maintenance really isn’t. With the three ‘weight’ classes of vehicles & the optional armor packages within the families you have ‘light’ units of no more than 20 tons, ‘medium’ units of no more than 32 tons (which can be upped to 40 tons), ‘medium/heavy’ units of no more than 40 tons (which can be upped to 48 tons) & ‘heavy/heavy’ units of no more than 60 tons (with in fact only the MBT weighing 60 tons, a small number of 48 ton ‘heavy’ IFVs [vs a larger number of 32 ton ‘medium’ IFVs], 40 ton 56 cal 155mm [& 40 cal 8″] SPH & everything else being basically the same as a 32 ton ‘medium’ unit).

And last but not least, even though I realize it would be hellishly expensive, given the realities of ‘hybrid warfare’ where even traditionally ‘safe’ zones can become combat zones I would extend the familty of 16/20 ton Stryker-like 8x8 wheelled vehicles to include 12 ton (max GVW) 6x6 & 8 ton (max GVW) 4x4 ‘utility’ vehicles (much like the 8x8/6x6/4x4 Piranha family) & do away with the HMMWV/jeep all together as well has have as many other utility vehicles (trucks) be based on the MRAP concept as possible.

One final note. Weight assume/include the use of a significant degree of advanced light weight materials to reduce weight 10–20%. For example the 40 ton 56 cal ‘heavy’ SPH using “traditional” materials/construction would weigh ~48 tons & the 60 ton MBT would weigh 66 tons (with slightly smaller size & more weight efficient design such that it having greater armor protection than the ~70 ton M1A2 SEP).

What if, in the world of increasingly “nano” systems and increased soldier agility linked with robotics, compacted power, rapid deployment of dispersed force and networked UAV delivered force projection, there is little need for “heavy combat vehicles”? What if?? What if it is a combination of pennst98’s conclusion above — Leadership with true warfighter guts AND a level of today’s technology metered appropriately to be fluid in movement with our young warfighters??

pennst98:“1st and foremost I don’t feel attacking a man’s ideas is the same as an ad homonym (personal) attack. While I used humor I didn’t disrespect him personally; I attacked an institutional practice of hiring people who aren’t up to the job.“
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reply: Yet you said:“They couldn’t buy birth control at Walgreens without screwing it up, yet we keep going to the same stagnant pool of no-talent clowns for ideas on design/procurement.”

No personal attacks there, right?

Please describe your superior alternatives for military design/procurement. Up-armored HMMWVs, MRAPs, Bradley improvements, Tank Urban Survival Kit, new trucks, Stryker fielding, Lakota, Patriot and THAAD improvements, UH-60M, CH-47F, and Apache Block II,and Hellfire upgrades, Shadow UAS, MLRS and Excalibur GPS munitions, and supervision of FCS under Boeing/SAIC lead sounds like LTG Yankovac was rather busy.

ARH should have survived. But a former Navy Undersecretary chose to kill the Army’s:
* low-cost-per-flying-hour
* $12–14 million flyaway cost
* daily-flown in combat as opposed to late arriving or never served
* underpowered posing a safety hazard
* old, worn out OH-58D replacement

Meanwhile, the six-time more expensive V-22 built in part by the same screwing up Bell Helicopter (IMHO), costing $11 grand per flying and hour gets continued reprieves and other Marine contracts. EFV is extremely vulnerable to IEDs and has more troops aboard yet that was an excuse for killing MGV.

True FCS had/has other problems but fixing those areas and Army-wide fielding of other succesful spin outs is still part of the answer. Heavier V-hull ground combat vehicles, and current vehicle upgrades embracing some FCS technology will fix the rest.

So far, I’ve only heard you advocate reviving dead leaders and returning to WWII, Korea, and Vietnam level old technologies that resulted in enormous casualties. So half a million dead is better than current casualties? Would you have us fire bomb or napalm the Taliban like the good old days? Carpet bombing anyone?
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pennst98:“If you listen to half their “ideas” you would think they’d gotten all of their knowledge of war fighting from watching Hogan’s Heroes.“
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reply: You’re confusing the reruns that you and your party school classmates were watching while General Yakovac, Petraeus, Odierno, McChrystal, and McMaster were at the school just ranked number 1 by Forbes.
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pennst98 said:“However once you stop promoting based on merit the whole system falls apart. Pretty soon no one is making decision based on what is good for the Army, they’re doing what is best for themselves. This is exacerbated in the military because of the rigid adherence to rank. Pretty soon everything becomes the Wizard of Oz meets the Pentagon. PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE 4 STARS!!
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reply: Yeah, your right, the system that chose Generals Yakovac, Petraeus, Odierno, McChrystal, and McMaster (and 3 out of 4 WWII ones mentioned earlier)must really be screwed up.

I’m confused though. Were those Generals solely looking after themselves when they stayed deployed in combat for years on end while their wives and children missed them at home?
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pennst98:“Never before in our history has America had such a professional, experienced, capable, and dedicated Military. These men and women aren’t conscripts. These men and women are professionals that serve, and continue to serve despite GLARING displays of incompetence and mismanagement by those that command them.“
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reply: I agree they are great. So are their leaders. Cite specifics and how you would have done it better.
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pennst98 said:“I mean do you think we’re going backward in Afghanistan because we have OUTSTANDING strategic minds and leadership?“
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reply: Did the surge in Iraq not work? Is it worth trying in Afghanistan? Did you read General McChrystal new strategy? Are Army generals responsible for receiving insufficient forces and rebuilding funds in Afghanistan? Were Generals responsible when we abandoned the Afghanis following the defeat of the Soviets there? Are Generals responsible for the warlords, corruption, poppies, ISI, Durand line, and lack of willingness to progress technologically or in human rights?
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pennst98:“For my experience and money I’d rather have Marshall, Patton, Bradley, and McArthur and go into battle with gear from Vietnam than go into battle with laser guns and hovercraft under these morons. WE DON’T NEED MORE TECHNOLOGY, WE NEED TO REMEMBER HOW TO FIGHT A WAR.“
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Funny, I thought it was a counterinsurgency the last few years, not a war.

But since you want to talk about war, please peruse comments from a November 2005 article: “Lt. Gen. Joseph L. Yakovac said that when he entered the service in the early 1970s, the soldier was a “cheap instrument of war” outfitted at roughly $2,000 per soldier. “It was a very simplistic Army,” he said.

Review Vietnam casualty levels. Then tell us that low spending level per Soldier described by LTG Yakovac are the answer coupled with bullet and bomb-proof leadership. I enlisted as a combat engineer in January 1975 and it wasn’t a pretty sight. I recall working on M113s back then a decade after their introduction and yet many troops are still riding around in those thin skinned, weakly armed vehicles that are IED bait.

Review the most recent Michael Yon articles where effective British Soldiers and leadership fail to compensate for insufficient spending on helicopters, sufficient troops, and technology to find IED in British sectors of Helmand province. Do you want that to be our Army, too?

Cole the M113 is pretty thin skinned too. That APC is better than an up-armored HMMWV in terms of protection and crew capacity, yet not by much.

Cole……don’t know where to start. You don’t refute anything I say….you just postulate questions I think I’ve answered and cite anecdotal evidence. What about This! What about
That! (GASP) You seem like a bright guy, really, but I think you’re mostly angry that I’m not cheerleading this Afghanistan death march our troops are on.

Look, when you realize you screwed up or brought the wrong kit (and that will happen)……you improvise until you can get the right stuff into theater. Unfortunately we’ve been winging it for damn near a decade brother! (count it…..8 years!) In that time we’ve done what? Strapped too much armor on the HMMWV until it became a golf cart?! (only after pretending for 3 years it wasn’t necessary) Managed to produce a marvel of innovaction the MRAP! Only that vehicles was produced in the 1970’s/80’s by the the South African/Rhodesian armies to combat anti-vehicle/tank mines. (and we’d been using them since the 1990’s for EOD) Only our were around 20000X the cost! Then we went and completely rebuilt the Stryker so that it could survive 7.62mm Bullet hits. Who saw that as a threat? (true story, go look at the MEXAS I debacle……had to strip the whole thing down)

I’m sorry that I’m so outraged that the greatest military industrial complex ever conceived on the planet seems more focused on future wars than the one its fighting! Almost ANYTHING you can claim as an advance or response worth noting was done so AT THE OBJECTION OF OUR SENIOR GENERALS. I remind you all that body armor, up-armored HMMWVs and Support Trucks, squad radios, and most recently the MRAP were only instituted after embarrassing the Services on TV. Most were NO BRAINERS and cut the casualty figures damn near in half after we delievered them. (at which point the Pentagon patted itself on the back to say what a bangup job they were doing for Joe…)

Even when we implement somethign we need like the MRAP; we get boned on maintenance and support. It’s so bad now that the Marine Corps parked theirs in Kuwait and said “no thanks!” The vehicles are poorly built and are shaking apart. They can’t go down city roads, and flip over every time the top heavy beasts lean more than a few degrees to the right or left. (That’s why OshKosh is building their M-ATV)

What is the alternative? Go look at KMV’s Dingo, F2, and other vehicles which are highly engineered for this type of work. If you want immediate high rate production we could have called OTT in South Africa for their vehicles, and we’d have gotten them much, much, much cheaper…..

Well I’m getting long in my response so I’ll leave it here. I’m writing a book on all this, hopefully I’ll get it finished between work and everything else I have going on. The point I am trying to make is that we seem to have lost our ability to plan, design, lead, and execute militarily; and if we can’t do that what else does the rest matter? If it’s your contention that this is textbook strategy, planning and execution then you and I have very differing ideas on what success and competence are and I don’t know what else to say.…

Cole, I’m not trying to take you to the dark side or believe I’m completely right, but take some time to think about what I’ve said. Catch you later, getting ready for a much deserved vacation…..

Good Morning Folks,

Since I’m not really in the on going discussion here about what is need since I’m of the opinion that currently we have more then enough armor to cover any future contingencies that any expenditures at this time on armor would be a foolish allocation of dwindling funds.

I must say that pfcem has done his homework on armored forces, perhaps better then those who are trying to get their hands on the $86 billion that was taken out of play with the cancelations of the FTC, and that’s really all that this is about getting that money back in the budget. This argument has nothing to do with the men and women currently fight Americas war and making life and their jobs wasier

Good Morning Folks,

I was cut off, I guess the editors again don’t want to hear what I have to say, oh well that’s life. I know who pays the bills.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

pennst98,

I understand your passion but your anger/distrust is misplaced. The generals do not make the rules OR choose what they go into battle with. Those decisions are made by civilian leadership & pencil pushers at the Pentagon. IF the generals made the rules & chose what they went into battle with, we would have had twice as many troops in Iraq & Afghanistan AND after we kicked but we would have been “peace keeping” with M1117 Guardian armored security vehicles rather than HMMWVs.

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Byron Skinner,

Thanks for the kinds words. I don’t think anybody is arguing that we need MORE armor. But the ‘decision’ has been made that we are to have a “transformational” medium force. Key to the “transformation” is new ‘medium’ AFVs (more than HMMWVs & other utility vehicles of Light Infantry but less than the Abrams/Bradley of Armored forces). Accepting that said “transformation” is to take place there are two primary points of question/discussion. What ‘weight’ are these “transformational” medium vehicles to be (20 tons, 30 tons, 40 tons MAX GVW) & what is to be the new heavy/medium/light forces structure (how many heavy units, how many medium units, how many light units).

Pennst98, the M-ATV seems to have some promise, but the rest of our MRAPs are going to be of “questionable” utility after the current war. We did look at some foreign designs designs, yet the problem was that many did not have a v-shaped hull setup.

We also did buy a few thousand RG-31 and RG-33 vehicles, which are produced by the South Africans. I know the USMC bought some Israeli Golans too.

Some of the MRAP designs are based heavily around trucks manufacturing by these companies. While we can built MRAPs much quicker this way, there are design problems soldiers have pointed out. Ideally after these wars we should sell and put into storage many of the less than ideal designs.

pfcem; I agree with you that they aren’t the only ones to blame, but unlike Congress and other civilians they’re supposed to know better. It is their DUTY not just their job to stand up for Joe. You want to see how it’s done, take a look at (Polish) Army chief General Waldemar Skrzypczak. He resigned after his repeated requests for better equipment were denied by an incompetent Polish Defence Ministry. It’s the least he could do to bring some attention to the issue. Imagine if someone had done the same here.….

ReconTeam — Good read on the MRAP’s. Being in industry I’ve been around them and your assessment is accurate. I’m hoping for the troops sake the M-ATV shows some promise. The only thing I’ll add is that the RG-31/33 are completely overpriced to the point of being fraudulent, and that doesn’t include the 500K-1M dollars worth of “communications” gear they stuff in. I know some of this stuff (won’t say for opsec) aren’t radios, but COME ON!

We need some audit teams to do a price check on isle 4.

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