Hey AF! Where’s the Air Support?

Hey AF! Where’s the Air Support?

An unexpected debate about air power and close air support in Afghanistan popped up at the Air Force Association conference this week. Maj. Gen. David Edgington, chief of staff for Joint Forces Command, presented a draft version of the Capstone Concept for Joint Operations, which is n the process of being written by the folks down at Norfolk, Va.

Edgington was discussing the small unit operating concept JFCOM is advocating: decentralizing operations and empowering lower level units, battalion and below, with all of the technological enablers and fire support available to higher echelon. JFCOM is trying to develop future operating concepts that build on lessons emerging from the current fights.

Air Force Gen. Roger Brady, commander of Air Forces Europe, was sitting in the audience and asserted that’s exactly what the Air Force is doing right now in Afghanistan — providing needed air support to small units spread throughout the country: “How would we do something different than what we’re doing right now?”


Edgington, wearing his “purple” joint hat, argued the ground force’s perspective. He said the “perception” at senior military levels, is that the Air Force is not currently providing the air support ground commanders in Afghanistan need, specifically, more close air support (CAS) and more full motion video from aerial drones. “The perception at least at the senior levels, the feedback they get from the battalion and company level, is they want greater access to air when they need it.”

Brady countered that the perception is wrong. When he visited Afghanistan, he was told that everything is great and troops are getting the air support they need. The response time for close air support when troops are in contact is 10 to 15 minutes. “I’m not sure what the problem is,” he said. Furthermore, because of the concern over civilian casualties and collateral damage, ground troops are now being discouraged from calling in air support.

This issue of metrics is an important one, as is the matter of perceptions. “If the joint force had the solution right now it would be easy to ask for it,” Edgington said. There is a “conflict of opinion” as to what commanders on the ground want, available force levels in Afghanistan and the global demands on the force. Army flag officers have told him that they want two F-16s for every battalion out there. The Air Force cannot produce that, he said. There are just not enough people.

He acknowledged that the demand for air coverage will only increase as more troops arrive in Afghanistan and spread out in smaller units to villages and mountain valleys. “If the demand from Afghanistan is for more air power because they need more CAS… What is the reaction time? Give me your metric? What do you need out there?” The agreed-upon metric for troops in contact is 10 to 15 minutes, he said. Once McChrystal presents his expected request for more troops, once Afghan troop levels and where they will be deployed is known, then the Air Force can provide the aircraft needed to meet that request time, he argued.

Edgington contrasted the war in Afghanistan today with that of Iraq, where fighting was centralized in the major cities, making planning for air support relatively easy: two F-16s over Baghdad could handle all requests for air support.

Six months ago, lower troop numbers in Afghanistan meant there was plenty of air to do what was needed. Now, he said, there are more units, spread across a larger area and with new restrictions as far as calling for fires from new Afghan commander Gen. Stanley McChrystal.

We’ll continue to examine the issue of available air coverage in Afghanistan as I expect it will become a more contentious one as the fighting there intensifies and U.S. casualties increase. Our sister site, Defense Tech, has been covering the recent ambush in Ganjgal where three Marines, a Navy Corpsman and nine Afghan soldiers were killed; a reporter embedded with the unit said air support was delayed for more than an hour.

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Perhaps we see the difference between “average” response time and response time when you are taking fire. You may be the only squad around where it takes a while to get air support but that doesn’t matter to you.

My point is that the Generals deal with metrics and the privates deal with individual situations.

Still I would ask how are air support requests handled between Marine/Navy aircraft, Army rotorcraft, Air Force, allies, etc. Can we actually guarantee that NO ONE will wait for more than 10 minutes?

After what happened in Gangigal (the recent ambush with 4 marines killed because air support was denied) they better get our boys that damn close air support. This had better not turn into a Vietnam where we sacrifice our own boys because we are afriad of collateral damage.

i am a former air force veteran i agree with
lt col phillips ther should be a full compliment of cas aircraft in these theaters were the fighting ground units should not wait
with all of the allied forces in country they should have enough aitrcaft in cas operation
i.e fixed wing and or rotorcraft

Colin, Grant, et al,

Off topic, but I am fairly certain that the “Eurofighter” featured on your landing page video is a Dassault Mirage 2000.

Respectfully,

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

Good Evening Folks,

Two comments. First off it’s geed to see the AF debating an issue in a public forum like the AFA. The public has a chance to see the disagreement that is with in the institution.

A response time of 10–15 minutes is TO SLOW. I’ve been in high intensity ground fire fights and many don’t last that long. The problems appear to be getting approval for the strike, radio communication between the Army ground commander and the actual attack aircraft(s) tasked to the mission (their is none, FAC in that situation is a pi** poor second option) and the AF not wanting to come down from a cushy SAFE 10K feet.

What is needed is designate the are where a combat unit is operating as a free fire zone with the Army/Marine ground commanders in direct control with the air support and calling the shots.

It is the job of the mission planners to determine what kind of air support is appropriate for the mission and to factor in any collateral damage that could occur. Make the ground commander(s) responsible for the mission, this is what being an officer or NCO is all about, not some lawyers at Elgin AFB or the Pentagon.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Byron, don’t forget there is an entire military bureaucracy that fights tooth and nail to not be cut out of the command & control cycle. Whether it be the TAOC or the DASC, they believe an aircraft can’t get from point a to b and execute a mission without holding the pilot’s hand. Once upon a time, a pilot could talk to the guy on the ground and not ask permission because he worked directly for that ground commander.

The problem, just as it is/was in Iraq, is that we are trying to ‘fight the war on the cheap’. Too small of units too spead out & not enough money being allocated to air forces to cover them all. Given the fund to do so our air forces would be more than happy to do like they did in ODS & split up the entitre country into kill boxes & assign aircraft to cover each & everyone of them. That would be overkill of course but people need to stop the BS of saying that our air forces aren’t willing to provide sufficient CAS. It is the political leadership, not our air forces.

Oh no, it’s the air forces alright. Politicians too, including Mullen and Petraeus and McChrystal.

They got the idea they could standardize everything with JTACs and 9-line CAS. Looks pretty slick in a manual. Easy right? Throw in precision bombs, hell, nobody even has to hardly think anymore. It’s the sort of thing you could punch in to your MIL-STD iPhone, and just have whatever drone is nearby roll in. That’s what they eventually want, right? And what’s 10–15 minutes anyway? …Twice as fast as a pizza gets delivered.

Air needs to work with the ground just as fluidly as the situation demands. They need mudfighters, appropriately armed, flown by crew that are specialists at one job: Killing the enemy danger close. That’s something these wars, and every war since the invention of flight, have needed.

There are two issues here. As stated, the people on the ground want “more close air support (CAS) and more full motion video from aerial drones”. Each is a different issue. Numerous forces provide drones (USMC, USA, USAF) as well as close air support (USAF, USN, USMC). Better and more full motion video probably reduces the requirement for more responsive CAS. But then again, where is the organic fire support? How fast can the USA or USMC rain down 155mm and GMLRS rounds in support of in contact units? Call them first. A grid of HIMARS fire units with trajectory shaping, spaced 75nm-100nm apart, would cover the entire operating area with on call fire support, then it wouldn’t matter that the fast mover took 10-15min to get there. A unit supported with good recon aircraft or organic drone assets and a GMLRS battery might not need any CAS at all. All you would need was a responsive fire control network and NCOs trained to call in fire (which may be asking a lot). A lot cheaper than a whole sky full of manned aircraft. Of course you wouldn’t have anyone else to blame when you made a mistake either.

Bring back napalm!

- When he visited Afghanistan, he was told that everything is great and troops are getting the air support they need. The response time for close air support when troops are in contact is 10 to 15 minutes. “I’m not sure what the problem is,” he said. —

Really? The troops are getting all the air support they need and everything is “great”? I have a feeling the troops on the ground don’t see it quite that way.

Some of you obviously do not know how air is appropriated throughout the theater. Byron it is the job of the mission commanders to determine the air they want. They do that now. In simple terms, the units put the requests in with the Army. The army takes all the requests and rank orders them and passes them to the AF who fills them in order of the Armies priorities. I will agree we need more CAS specific airframes. We also have caps flying constantly over the most active areas. That is why the average is 10–15 minutes, obviously sometimes quicker and sometimes slower depending on where the fight is compared to the cap and who the Army decided had higher priority. I can’t tell you how many times I have been supporting a unit with ISR and you hear a call for airsupport and the ground commander would not cut me loose to go help. I have left before and have to explain myself later. I have been lucky. if the unit I was supporting would have come under fire and someone had been killed I would be strung up.

If you are getting shot at having to wait 1 min is to long. But if you want to go back to when ground commanders owned the air, you would end up with a few units that owned the air getting support and nobody else, just like what happened in WWII.

Mikej yea having people do stuff the same way so everybody knows what is going on is bad. Give me a break. Lets have the Marines, Army, Airforce, Navy and the coalition forces all do CAS and talk-ons a different way that would be much more efficient and faster.

Classic debate. Curious, but if the desire is to better enable the ground commanders at BN and even CO levels, what has been done to improve availability with their own organic assets placed closer to AO, such as Air Cav and ATK HEL BNs (i.e; AH-64, AH-1W, etc)?

Ask the troops on the ground about close air support. This should not be a debate. As long as there are troops on the ground, there should be close air support.

STODR–

My point was not “standardization is bad”, I probably would have worded things better if I wasn’t writing angry. The problem is too few of the wrong airframes armed with overkill-sized ordnance. That necessitates this kabuki dance that ground and air have to go through to get bombs dropped.

My thinking is more aligned with Gens. McMaster and Mattis. We need to disaggregate authority and operate at the speed of trust. We need aircraft, and most especially, flight crews who specialize at working closely with the ground. That doesn’t do away with the need for standardized communication, it suggests a more free-flowing cooperation where greater familiarity with a situation, once established, requires less structure.

Finally, pilots should never be put in the position of having to explain themselves for supporting troops in contact. Clearly, we need more aircraft.

Good Morning Folks,

Some good comments here, it show that the readers of dod buzz have a better grasp of the issue(s) the the Generals do, what a surprise.

To STODR. First off the 10–15 minute window is to large. The taliban/al Qaeda are not stupid. As in Vietnam they have learned to use their intelligence to gather information of the AF’s tactical plans, think of all those locals on air bases who do the sh** work that airman/women won’t do like cleaning and feeding the troops, these underclass have eyes and ears and know the market for flight plans from the trash or a conversations overheard because it was assumed they can’t speak english. In short the bad guys on the ground know who is in the air and where they are, even more so the the American forces commander does.

The Taliban/al Qaeda know that Americans like to use air support and indirect fire weapons so they will engage American forces in as close of quarters as possible. There have been incidents reported in the elite media where air support was REFUSED to a ground commander because the Taliban were to close and the AF couldn’t maintain is 1000 meters or so safety margin. The ground commander needs to make the calls, not some legalistic AF bureaucrat miles away from the action.

A 10–15 minute window beside being know to the enemy is just to da** slow. It’s not like there are hundreds of small ground units out at any give time, it’s less then a hand full, more like one or two. The AF has sufficient assets to provide on call air support for these units, there is no excuse not to.

It the Air Force’s position is extremely clear, they don’t want to be involved in the dirty ground war in Afghanistan where mistakes will be made and officers held accountable for those mistakes, they would much rather play with their F-22’s and an imaginary enemy the fight a real one.

The Army needs to take over the fixed wing ground support role and a good place to start would be to let the Army buy C-27J’s and convert the into much needed AC-27J’s Gunships with Army pilots. flying out of Army bases, living with the ground troops, and who will have to confront a pi**ed off ground commanders when they screw up.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Mikej no problem and good points.

Byron please post one comment from anybody on this board that said 10–15 min was good enough.

LN are not allowed in the fligth rooms, briefing rooms, ops building or quarters we do our own cleaning in those areas. Granted they do pass info, but it is pretty hard to hide an aircraft taking off.

There is no rule about 1000 meters. What some private tell you that? There are certian guidlines for each weapon and none of them are as high as 1000m. Most of them are right around 250m and smaller and all we need to drop/ or shoot inside of that is the ground commanders initials.

The AF is not making the call except who to support. Once we get sent to a fire fight (by the ASOC which is staffed all services) we talk to the JTAC or anouther qulified individual, they clear the weapon with the GC nobody else. If there is no qualified individual then it is up to the pilot.

And yes Afghanistan is full of small units all over the place just because you don’t know about them does not mean that are not there. It is not just US forces we are covering and we still have to cover Iraq and the troops there. And we don’t have enough assets to cover them all. Just for some trivia for you. the Army has more airborne assts then the AF, are you going to say they don’t want to support you? You want to know what the difference is. When the GC that owns them goes home so do the assests.

As for the Army AC-27J’s that is a General fight way above our pay grade.

“It the Air Force’s position is extremely clear, they don’t want to be involved in the dirty ground war in Afghanistan where mistakes will be made and officers held accountable for those mistakes, they would much rather play with their F-22’s and an imaginary enemy the fight a real one.”

yea sure what ever you say.

There needs to be aircraft in the air and in the vicinity of any troop movement. 15 minutes is totally unacceptable for arrival time. When seconds count the USAF is just minutes away. If a ground commander needs air support it should be his/her call.

“There needs to be aircraft in the air and in the vicinity of any troop movement.”

I would agree but talk to the Army staff that sets the priorities, unfortunatly for the ground guys that priority many times is watching a building for weeks on end until somebody shows up.

“15 minutes is totally unacceptable for arrival time.”

True

“When seconds count the USAF is just minutes away.”

And the QRF and helos are how far away again?

“If a ground commander needs air support it should be his/her call.”

It is there call, but which one gets priority?

Guess, I’m kind of questioning some of the enthusiasm for an AT-6 “mudfighters”:

http://​www​.airforce​-technology​.com/​p​r​o​j​e​c​t​s​/​a​t​-​6​b​-​l​i​g​h​t​-​a​t​t​a​ck/

A realistic top speed of 250 knots with external stores at lower altitudes is possibly twice that of an Apache. To get 15 minute response time requires AT-6 to be within 63nm of troops in contact and the Apache within 32nm or about 55+kms. Advantage AT-6, but not by much.

Now factor in payload. The AT-6’s payload is 1650 lbs. Add fuel, ammo and stores, and avionics/sensors, and I’m thinking it probably carries less than an Apache. It has a 850nm range clean which implies no payload whatsoever. With ammo payload and stores drag, you might be talking less than 600nm range, which is still only about 2.3 hours…about the same as an Apache.

Now add high/hot conditions and an 1100hp AT-6 isn’t looking so hot against a twin-engine Apache with far more power.

Weapons? JDAM and small diameter bomb favors AT-6. But 30mm and Hellfire favors the Apache which can fire closer to troops and produce greater lethality than AT-6 .50 caliber. I would also submit that the new Arrowhead sensors of the Apache would be far better at providing positive ID than anythin mounted on the AT-6.

What’s wrong with the A-10 and F-35 that when fielded will have ample endurance and payload, and arrives a lot sooner. I will also add that the Apache’s ability to fly low in higher intensity conflict protects it from radar air defenses, thus making it a full spectrum aircraft…not just one for COIN.

A new light scout helicopter to replace the OH-58D might actually have greater endurance at about the same price as an AT-6 which by one article’s account cost $520 million for 36 aircraft, or about $14 million each (about as much as the ARH that John Young killed). Park the helicopter closer to the fight and you have the same response time and capability to rotate multiple units through theater as opposed to a few USAF units with 36+ aircraft.

STODR, thanks for your service. Are you permitted to tell us why no fast mover support showed up at Ganjgal?

Maybe the army & marines need their own organic air support at all levels, like wwII!

Cole–

Per the Ares blog, the engine for the AT-6 is now the PT6A-68, ~1600shp.

LAAR has the dual job of CAS and ISR. I think also you’re making a mistake by focusing on weapon “caliber”; any weapon on target is better than none. Think also about maintenance man hours and costs per flying hour, much less generally for fixed wing aircraft. LAAR could have the capability of flying from rough fields, which adds the possibility of forward basing, or at least forward refueling. Time on station is more important than range.

Experience with OV-10s in Vietnam indicated they got to the target much faster than helicopters, and sometimes faster than jets due to those being centrally controlled.

Factor these into your equations, I think you’ll see the light aircraft fills a niche and adds much needed complimentary capability to the fast jet and helicopter forces.

That should be, MMO and CPFH are much less for a light turboprop compared to jets and helicopters.

Interesting commments..so, let me get this straight. What some of you advocate is “CAS” available to ground units in seconds…almost a sounds like you advocate an air platform to “hover/orbit/shadow” in overwatch for every activity down to squad size ground operations. The air platform must respond with seconds after the squad takes a round and the response must be tailored in scale to avoid any possibility of collateral damage…hearts and minds being paramount.
The air response must be able to neutralize a single or perhaps 3 or 4 bad guys, so it doesn’t sound like the opponent fights in numbers larger that company size. It sounds most of you don’t want centralized planning and de-centralized execution command and control.…instead, it sounds like you want every O-2/E-5 ground guy to have dedicated air support and that air support must be under the command of the squad leader..the air support folks should be billeted with the ground guys to assure the air guys are on board and understand the squad leader’s problem?? It sounds like a .50cal or 30mm weapon would accommodate most threats and give us the best chance at minimizing CD.
If this is the requirement that you folks advocate, then, it is different from past CAS/BAI ops. In WWII, Korea, VN, etc…ground units would request CAS when engaging superior force, hard positions, armor, etc.…it sounds like the current requirement is different?
That said…it is difficult to see how a fixed wing asset (whether an A10C, A1, Super Tocano) can meet this requirement?? Sounds like you needs thousands of Apache helos?? If this is the air overwatch force necessary for the US to be successful in Afghanistan, then so be it.
Of course, there are a couple of tough questions that must be anwered: 1. Given the experience of the British & Russians, are we sure this COIN/Nation Building strategy will work within a decade and at what cost in lives and treasure? 2. Is there another way? 3. If we give the Army this massive amount of $$ for small unit air overwatch, is it affordable? What do we have to give up? Is the small unit air overwatch viable in higher threat environments or a niche capability for Afghanistan?
My gut tells me that the “suits” have issued the military a near impossible task (we are going to “win the hearts & minds of the Pashtu etc and build a nation state where none has ever existed.…tall order!) So, we should support the guys “in the crotch” with whatever works.

i think you guys are unfairly comparing “cas-x” with f 16/f 15s. this is an aircraft that as i understand it would augment Scout weapon team kiowas as opposed to directly replace f 16/f15 as obviously they are different animals.

i think the goal with this aircraft is send 1–2 with a ground element as we do now with the k-dubs but with a platform with longer endurance greater range more payload ect. really this aircraft should be compared to rotary wing assets and not f-22s.

the arguments about survivability in a high threat environment are somewhat dis honest. this aircraft would be just as survivable as every rotary wing platform that seems to do fine, its not a strike fight but then again its not supposed to be.

these aircraft will always have a use as we will always have supply lines to patrol. they probably would do fine patrolling the border with Mexico/Canada and anti drug operations also so there is a life after Afghanistan.

Good Evening STODR and all,

Good post. What appears to have developed here is support for one of two sides with in the AF. It appears that you are in support of the remarks of General Roger Brady, and I’m more inclined to what Major General David Edington said. I wish all of the topics on these site could appear so clean cut.

Let see first to qualify something on my part, I reframe from using specifics or identifying weapons systems or delivery platforms. A thousand meters is an unclassified number that is no indication of a specific weapon and its use was simply to state that the It does as you confirmed show their are limitations of how close they will operate to ground units, that’s all I meant the number to indicate.

I think to clear up this for anybody who still cares is the MOH story of SFC Jarad C. Monti that was all over the elite media this past week. Rotary wing aircraft which compose the bulk of Army air assets and all of its combat air support, were unable to operate in the environment that SFC Monti and his 16 man platoon found themselves in. The closeness of the fighting and the appox 1:3 ration with the Taliban in my opinion was more typical then out of the ordinary.

This fire fight was initiated by, planned by and executed by the Taliban using some very good intelligence and by a very skillful commander. Sad to say but the Taliban commanders in Afghanistan are at least as good at any level as their American counterpart, and often sadly much better.

One solution to the problem of bringing in air to a unit that is engaged is to let the pilots listen in and be able to break into a company net and offer their services. This modification was done in country in Vietnam and the results were good.

In one action that I was in an Armored Cav. Platoon was heavly engaged in a quickly maturing ambush with an NVA Regiment size, the object was to over run the armored cav. platoon. They had no assigned air but a 1st. ID unit was doing a sweep about 50 klicks away and had air, the air was retasked, and released in seconds. Four F-100’s with NAPLAM were over target in less the five minutes and two had pealed off and were starting their run as com was established with the LT. who was the ground commander. This turned the ambush around although most of the Americans were kill or seriously wounded. I was one of the lucky ones.

The moral here was that this action was not authorized by four or five bureaucratic levels of command, it was the judgement call of a pilot. It worked, it turned around a disaster in the making and saved American lives. This is the way t should be done in Afghanistan.

The above is an example of how it can work. Knowing that no battalion commander would use all of his companies and that no Company Commander would all his company to a dismount in Indian country, the number of small units out on these missions are few at any one time. If the AF doesn’t have the assets in country to provide full time support then the AF is misallocating it’s assets. This is a command malfunction and can be quickly corrected. The AF has the planes, manpower and ordinance to do this mission in Afghanistan.

Good posting with you STODR. If you see me around someday, introduce yourself and lets have a coffee or what ever might be appropriate at he time and place.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

why not get mothballed F-5s back in service for cas/trike duties we should have enough of them
just get some that hve loew flight hours and get them going again why not?

you missing the point of what were talking about, its not simply sprint in bomb sprint out, its about persistent presence.

Heck of a heroic experience Byron, and I’m sure you’ve got many more, as do all the troops on repeat tours to the mideast. Stars and Stripes had a good diagram that made it clearer what occurred to SFC Monti, the Medal of Honor recipient:

http://​www​.stripes​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​.​a​s​p​?​s​e​c​t​i​o​n​=​1​0​4​&​a​m​p​;​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​=​6​4​809

That story was both tragic and amazing. You note that artillery and air support did arrive thanks to joint fires observer SFC Monti’s calls for fire. I’m pretty amazed that they used 2,000 lb bombs so close to the 16 troops on that ridge against the 50 attackers. That was horrible about the winch cable breaking on the MEDEVAC bird…probably due to carrying two heavy Soldiers at once. In addition to the troops on that ridge, another hero was that medic and MEDEVAC crew for making the attempt.

When the Army fields organic medium endurance UAS (MQ-1C), in addition to fast movers, mudfighters, and attack reconnaissance helicopters, a lethal UAS capability will exist with ample station time. In addition, in a situation like this when troops are left overnight in an unplanned vulnerable position, the Army would have medium endurance UAS able to conduct dedicated overwatch and facilitate artillery fires and Hellfire attacks.

Daniel, there are other ways of achieving persistence. You can rotate attack weapons teams through the FARP to keep a pair on station. When MQ-1C is fielded, it will be able to stay on station while attack helicopters arm and refuel.

Still believe that the F-35 variants of all services will have great air-to-ground capabilities. Don’t sell those aircraft short just because they fly higher. The optics will be phenomenal and small diameter bombs will provide great support next to troops in contact.

MikeJ, hear you on the larger 1,600hp AT-6 engine (which probably costs endurance), but the Apache will soon have a pair of 2,000 hp GE 701D engines…but admittedly it weighs more than twice as much as the AT-6 when fully loaded at weights those mountains will permit.

Good Evening Folks,

Hi Cole, my intent of using the incident with SFC Monti as only an example currently in the news that I would say is more typical then untypical of Infantry combat in Afghanistan.

You do bring up a point Cole on the type of ordinance that was used, was it the best, the worst or all that the AF could get to the site. This exposed another shortcoming of the AF as a provider of air support for ground units especially those involved in close combat action. The AF’s defense as expressed by STODR hints that the AF is short of aircraft, ordinance and personal to provide timely air cover with the right weapons. Based on the information provided by the story of SFC Monti the heavy ordinance used seemed to be a bad choice, if there was a choice.

I guess all this goes back to Sec. Gates and his announcement earlier this year that the AF is not doing it’s share in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, seems to echoed in this diecussion.

cole, thanks for making me aware of farps i only used to live 50ft from one so i hadn’t heard of them. back to my point, ov-10x or whatever the airframe ends of being if it even ends up being would be more of a complement to swt’s than any fixed wing asset and comparing payloads of f-anything with future small cas aircraft is either a dishonest argument or simply not understanding what the conversation is about. mq-1c would have a different role than a swt or this future aircraft so comparing them really has no relevance. the idea is to have the ov-x present when stuff kicks off provide immediate support and help guide in the fast movers not have it rush over from the other side of the country. that’s the job of the f-teens/f-35 when it shows up.

Another victory for Operation: USELESS DIRT.

Whining about collateral damage, certain people in command stating air will be less to satisfy the mayor of Kabul (the guy pretending to be the Afghan pres) .… and then wondering why we don’t have enough CAS on demand. Surprise! Surprise!

CAS saves lives. The lives of our troops.

Looks like there’s not enough air assets in theatre.

Daniel, if you lived within 50′ of a FARP, guess you probably have “heard” of them on many occasions. Hope they didn’t keep you up at night. Thanks for serving.

I’ve also run a FARP or two and wrote substantial parts of current FARP doctrine. The fact that you lived so close to one probably indicates a fairly small FOB. If you can put a FARP there, you can park helicopters there semi-permanently or as a day-long aerial QRF. You don’t need a runway like you do with a mudfighter. BTW, light mudfighters don’t fare too well parked or taxiing around high performance jets/props or helicopters or landing/taking off in their wake turbulence.

As for loitering and providing CAS from a UAS, let me quote MAJ Burdine from his Summer 2009 “Air & Space Power Journal” article:

“According to the 432nd Wing at Creech AFB, Nevada, Predators and Reapers in 2007 and 2008 launched 247 Hellfire missiles (95% direct hits), dropped 71 bombs, supported 834 TICs, and provided armed ISR during 2,509 raids on enemy compounds in both OIF and OEF while burning less than four gallons of fuel per hour.”

Four gallons per hour is why UAS are one answer to CAS,and in Army terms: close combat attack. Obviously fuel consumption and cost per flying hour of a larger UAS is much less than it is for a B-1B or F-15E. It would be for a mudfighter as well. But we went there in the past with FAC(A) and OV-10 and gave it up. Instead, use of Joint Terminal Attack Controllers and Joint Fires Observers on the ground with the supported units accomplish those duties. If you want a mudfighter, it should be armed to stay on station AND drop ordnance.

But mudfighters aren’t that much faster than a helicopter so you still need initial response fast movers like in Bryon’s and SFC Monti’s situations to get there much faster approaching at near mach speed…not 250 knots. Then the mudfighters arrive 15 minutes later about the time fighters leave to refuel. Then the attack helicopters and persistent UAS arrive in another 15 minutes to provide precision fires in close proximity to TIC.

The Army MQ-1C Sky Warrior will carry up to 4 Hellfires with long endurance. Along with Predators and Reapers supporting the Joint Force Commnader, MQ-1C will support the tactical commander with direct and general support. In addition, Command Posts owning the MQ-1C will be able to see the full motion video of a TIC to make decisions on release authority so that it isn’t the poor pilot getting blamed if the bomb hurts civilians. It will also be the CP’s fault if they fail to make the call to drop the bomb or send in precision artillery like Excalibur or NLOS-Launch System.

If you can drop 500 lb and 2,000 lb bombs within a stone’s throw of 16 dismounted troops in the SFC Monti incident, I’m sure there is some leeway on danger close when dropping 500 meters from a village…especially when carrying 250 lb small diameter bombs, or concrete filled JDAM.

Has the Sky Warrior been deployed in Afghanistan?

Bryon Skinner,

What recent supporting evidence to you have to support your claim made on 17 Sep of “AF not wanting to come down from a cushy SAFE 10K feet” ?

I will throw you to countless examples since 2001 of low altitude fighter operations in suport of ground troops. Millions of bullets have been shot in strafe runs from every type of aircraft flying with a gun to include fighter aircraft such as the F-15E that has a gun never intended to shoot at the ground (it has a 2 degree upcant for heavens sake). Most recently, an F-15E crashed at night, low altitude in Afghanistan, supporting ground troops. Your cushy safe 10k is over 10 years dated and you really need to get out from behind your computer and get back into the current fight before you make embarrasing comments like that.

The AF has many problems (several of which you have correctly pointed out). Tactical execution from the pilots supporting the troops is not one of them.

Bryone Skinner,

Next comment:

they would much rather play with their F-22’s and an imaginary enemy the fight a real one.

That’s like me saying, “How many troops does the Army have in Afghanistan right now?” How many troops does the Army have on active duty? Why doesn’t the Army have 300,000+ troops in Afghanistan right now? Is there some other fight out there that’s more important? What’s wrong with the Army?”

Have you ever been stationed in South Korea? Go over to Seol and tell them North Korea is an imaginary threat. What will keep Iran from getting Nukes and using them? (As they have promised to do)

Some people in this world do have to look beyond the end of their nose and actually think of global strategic issues and not just how to get weapons effects in 5 minutes instead of 10.

Cole:

“I will also add that the Apache’s ability to fly low in higher intensity conflict protects it from radar air defenses, thus making it a full spectrum aircraft…”

No it doesn’t. Reference OIF 2003 when Apache’s tried to execute deep strike into central Iraq. They got shot up so bad they were grounded for the rest of the invasion. (They also had atleast one shot down and POWs from that night) Army took deep strike out of the Apache mission just for that reason.

Bryon Skinner:

“If the AF doesn’t have the assets in country to provide full time support then the AF is misallocating it’s assets. This is a command malfunction and can be quickly corrected. The AF has the planes, manpower and ordinance to do this mission in Afghanistan.”

Ref my previous comment, as soon as the Army jumps in with 300,000 troops, we’ll be there.

AF has the planes to do this mission? Really, We’re retiring 250 fighter jets in 2010 because they’re too old and falling apart. The jets I fly are 20 years old and have flown well over their expected service life in hours. No one wants to pay to replace our fleet, yet everyone expects them to show up in force when needed.

Guess what folks, you can’t continue to screw the AF every budget cycle in the Pentagon and then expect 500+ planes to deploy to Afghanistan to support every squad on the ground who likes the sound of jet noise above them whether they need it or not.

Cole:

“Still believe that the F-35 variants of all services will have great air-to-ground capabilities. Don’t sell those aircraft short just because they fly higher. The optics will be phenomenal and small diameter bombs will provide great support next to troops in contact.”

Really? Don’t hold your breath on the F-35 being good at CAS. SDB? We tried that and put it back on the shelf. Anything with an “F” in front of it should not be your primary plan for CAS. You’re only doing a disservice to the ground troops by thinking that way.

How about we use an aircraft carrier to chase down pirates of Somalia? Maybe smaller boats would be more effective?

I’m a big fan of aircraft that start with “A” or “OV” to support the ground troops. That’s what they deserve.

More air assets will not win the war in Afghanistan.

The vast majority of strike platforms in Afghanistan right now all come back at the end of the day with ALL their weapons. Very few ever expend ordinance.

Just like in Iraq, what turned the war around there, was a surge in ground troops. MASS on the ground is the criticial element in this type of fight and just like Iraq, we’ve been slow to acknowledge this.

Daren S said: “No it doesn’t. Reference OIF 2003 when Apache’s tried to execute deep strike into central Iraq. They got shot up so bad they were grounded for the rest of the invasion. (They also had atleast one shot down and POWs from that night) Army took deep strike out of the Apache mission just for that reason.“
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I personally agree with you that interdiction attack (new name for deep attack) is not a strong Apache mission. Also work with a CW4 who was in that unit who believes the same. But they tried to hurry that mission with insufficient fuel (sufficient fuel trucks had not arrived yet) and over a route they did not prefer but were stuck with. Every service has black eyes. Shall we talk about an-Nasiriyah, Turkey Blackhawks, Canadian special forces, or recent tanker bombings and other collateral damage incidents?

However, several days after so many aircraft were shot up in that initial deep attack (and yet all but one a/c returned), the 101st executed a second interdiction attack that was far more successful. In addition, when used in close combat with ground forces, both forces provided mutual protection and loss rates were far lower.

In Afghanistan, there have been 356 service deaths to date in 2009. Only 2 were attributable to lost helicopters. In 2008, it was 294 troops lost with only 3 attributable to helicopters. Let me add that some of those were accident deaths. The Soviets lost over 300 helicopters and aircrews when they fought there.

As you mentioned with the tragic F-15E incident, there are inherent limitations flying low with fast movers at night in complex terrain. Even manned helicopters must slow down with extraordinary helmet-mounted optics we probably won’t have on mudfighters. Thus there is self-delusion in believing you could fly V-22s or mudfighters at survivable altitudes against radar air defenses at night at 250 knots.

That’s why we have stealthy F-35s to survive higher against the radar air defenses that survive…just as SA-6s still survived 78 days after attacks on Serbia commenced.

Darren S said: “The vast majority of strike platforms in Afghanistan right now all come back at the end of the day with ALL their weapons. Very few ever expend ordinance.“
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Which is why platforms like Reaper, Predator, and Sky Warrior make sense. Use them the majority of the time for reconnaissance, surveillance, target acquisition (RSTA). The Joint Force Commander ends up using his for strategic and operational intelligence and targeting (even more so when MQ-X fields), and some tactical RSTA support and can divert to TIC only as required.

But with sufficient additional tactical UAS assets, as Sky Warrior and Fire Scout will bring, you have less need to dynamically re-task joint UAS. With sufficient assets, eventually we have capabilities to divert owned Sky Warrior and Fire Scout assets in-house within a BCT sector without having to go through the distant CAOC for permission.

Darren S:“Ref my previous comment, as soon as the Army jumps in with 300,000 troops, we’ll be there.“
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Reply: You gotta be kidding me. Do you really care to compare the quantity of Soldiers who have served for long duration in both OIF and OEF to the number of Airmen? Thank you for serving, but 4–6 month tours (or flying out of Creech) doesn’t cut it compared to the 12–15 months that the Army is putting up with.
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Darren S said: “AF has the planes to do this mission? Really, We’re retiring 250 fighter jets in 2010 because they’re too old and falling apart. The jets I fly are 20 years old and have flown well over their expected service life in hours. No one wants to pay to replace our fleet, yet everyone expects them to show up in force when needed.
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reply: And yet the USAF is getting $80 billion in F-22 buys and upgrades, a trillion dollars in procurement and life cycle costs for the F-35 (with other services), and $110 billion to replace 500 KC-X. New bombers and other toys are waiting in the wings. Retiring 250 aircraft? The Army can’t get a few billion to replace 350 equally old OH-58D that actually have fought FOR YEARS in theater as compared to F-15C/D or F-22.
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Darren S: “Guess what folks, you can’t continue to screw the AF every budget cycle in the Pentagon and then expect 500+ planes to deploy to Afghanistan to support every squad on the ground who likes the sound of jet noise above them whether they need it or not.“
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reply: “You can’t continue to screw the AF every budget cycle?” You gotta be kidding me! You get nearly as much to buy and upgrade 187 F-22s as the Army would have spent for 4000 FCS manned ground vehicles that got cancelled, or the Marines are spending for a few hundred V-22s.

The USAF has and will have thousands of fighters. The Army has a bit over 500 AH-64D. The Army deploys Apaches to theater about every other year FOR A YEAR TOUR. How about you guys???????????????????

Don’t get me wrong. You guys are great Americans making a significant contribution to the Joint fight. But it gets old to hear the constant complaining that you aren’t getting enough money, while many Soldiers are spending their 3rd year in combat away from their families.

cole your ignoring two main points: they’re not going to station and a 0h 58 or ah 64 anywhere put an airfield of some type in the current conflict. this “mudfighter” would already be there not be called in, for example in iraq when we would conduct a mission, when we got air a swt would be pushed to us until someone need them more or they had to rtb. the downside there is that oh 58s spend alot of time farping the advantage is that they can farp. a light support aircraft (i dont like the term mudfighter) would have the benefit of staying on station longer,carrying more ordnance and would probably be more survivable than an oh 58. so ideally your light support set would be 0h 58s ‚future light support craft, and reaper/predator/warrior uavs. the added benefit is that the light support craft can conduct join operations with rotary wing assets because of their lower speed. this craft isnt meant to do the strike role of any of the air forces fixed wing assets.

Good Morning Folks,

Daran S. I’m not sure of what you are trying to say. If you are saying the Army/Marines should put more troops into Afghanistan, I dough that General Mc Chrystal will disagree with you. We have given the Taliban six years to rebuild and they haven’t wasted any time. In todays papers there is and article that put current Taliban combat strength at between 15-20K, five years ago the estimated Taliban strength was at about 850.

It wasn’t the men and women who have served the past six years in Afghanistan that let the Taliban dramatically increase in strength, it was the military bureaucrats and the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice/Bush Administration that let this happen.

If you talking about the foot print the US Military has to leave on foreign soil. The excessive number of service/support troops and “contractors” to the trigger pullers, you are not alone. Our ground forces travel with a way to big baggage train. So far in Afghanistan only the Marines are trying to do something about this.

As far as it distain for the ground mission the AF has been very open about this for years. Going back to the A-10 and the Regular AF not wanting anything to do with it and putting most if not all into the Air National Guard. It wasn’t until the first gulf war when the A-10 got elite media attention did the AF show any interest in the “ugly ducking”, and then it was only fleeting.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

The thing that bugs me the most about this whole situation is, there’s been pressure from within USAF for adding a light support plane for YEARS already. Now it’s going to take a couple more while they pick over the various bids…

Just going to throw this out there:

Have the contractors ship their first five planes (or whatever is supportable) over and make this a live fire competition. Separate out the serious contenders for the contract, and make them prove these things work from day one. It would also help hammer out the logistics issues. My feeling is it would tend to force them towards workable solutions.

Cole,

Completely agree on some of your points. I am not a huge fan of high level decisions to spend money on F-22 and F-35 when we should have bought an entire fleet of OV-10s, MQ-9s and new 4th gen fighters. But I gotta move on, give me 4 stars and I’ll try to fix some of that crap.

No, I will never compare my 4–6 months @ Camp Cupcake compared to what our American heroes have to deal with on their 15month tours at the FOBs. That is a seperate issue from the number of strike/CAS platforms to move to theater to support the fight. I can not put 500 jets in country and easy than the Army can put 300,000 troups in country. That’s all I was saying.

Our jets rotate to the AOR more frequently than you might think. Many are on 6-on-6-off rotations.

I’ve spent 2 1/2 years deployed to the CENTCOM AOR since 9/11 on 5 different deployments. I have volunteered for a 6th and am awaiting orders. Budget matters has nothing to do with time away from family. If the Army is complaining about tour lengths, they ought to enact the draft. We need new hardware or we won’t have anything to show up to the fight with.

Daniel, agree that most parked QRF aircraft in COIN would be at smaller secured airfield, as would MQ-1C and Shadow launch/recovery locations. I’m less convinced that you would get the USAF light close support aircraft to locate there semi-permanently in such austere conditions. But you could potentially park Fire Scouts and NLOS-Launch systems at smaller non-airfield FOBs to team with manned rotorcraft.

One factor you may be overlooking is crew endurance. Pilots only fly so many hours a day. Therefore, assume that you may have light support aircraft airborne for specific missions and timeframes but much of the remaining time would be on the ground as an aerial QRF to save remaining daily crew endurance until a TIC.

In contrast, UAS operators can have two shifts and several sub-shifts within a 24-hour period to keep aircraft airborne for multiple hours a day. In addition, the Army ground control station can be immediately adjacent to BCT CPs to provide real time imagery for RSTA purposes and for mission coordination and planning with the ground staff.

Now the USAF would have you believe that all UAS should be flown from the states because more UAS operators are available…since none ever deploy except the launch/recovery section and maintenance guys. Their planning staff is also in the states, trying to coordinate with a distant ground CP via internet chat and with stateside USAF intell guys who also are running the show from afar, not privvy to the latest info from the latest ground, small UAS, or aeroscout patrol.

Think about the long term implications of that. All officer pilots would be flying all UAS from stateside, supported by stateside USAF intell guys, using up all the satellite bandwidth (and hoping satellites aren’t disrupted) and NEVER deploying while all the enlisted USAF maintenance guys would be serving 4 month tours every 20 months or sooner. Plus all the Soldiers would still be in harm’s way for a year at a time every other year…because 10 AEFs require lots of Airmen to maintain that 4 month deployed/16 month stateside rotation. Huh??

Byron, have zero problem with an Afghan surge…but DarrenS said 300K Soldiers TWICE, and implied the Army was not pulling its weight! You wanna talk about a force that would need lots of sustainment over long supply lines through dangerous territory over unpaved roads.

Mike J, in addition to the time it will take to field the planes, you then must consider how many the USAF will actually field. If it is only about 100, you would only have 20 deploying at any given time to maintain the 4 months deployed, 16 months stateside rotation. What else would the USAF give up both personnel– and money-wise to field those 5 rotations of 20 aircraft? 1000–1250 Airmen? Moneywise, probably not a problem for USAF deep pockets, but 100 light support aircraft would be close to the cost to replace 1/3 to 1/4 of Army OH-58D!!

Of the 20 deployed light fighters only 16 would be mission capable and you would split those into two groups for day and night mission support. That leaves eight aircraft every 12 hours. Think you can cover Afghanistan with eight 250 knot aircraft? At one per battalion for each day and night shift, you are talking only 3–4 BCTs of support for 12–15,000 ground BCT Soldiers. Not even close to supporting a surge in Afghanistan, even if we could field them in time.

Daren S, had no idea you guys were deploying that much. But suspect that multiple shorter tours at airfields is still easier than fewer long tours in forward FOBs/COPs…as you seem to admit. Unfortunately, the Army requires longer tours to get to know the locals…but you would think 8–9 months would be sufficient.

Kind of get the impression you are an A-10 guy. I’m sure the Army guys really appreciate your support. Almost wish they would start manufacturing something similar to an A-10 or heavier OV-10 from scratch rather than go this lighter “mudfighter” route. Guess an attack version of the T-6 WOULD makes sense because you guys train on those already. Theoretically, a short in-country transition would be all that was required?

Thanks for serving.

Congratulations to Darren & Cole,
Your latest postings win the award for “over-the-top” jibberish. Darren’s USAF force structure — Obsolete 4th Gen, MQ-9s and (LOL) OV-10…brilliant!!
Cole is at least consistent in his sophmoric and constant castigation of all things AF

Not true Mark. Just consistent in belief that leaders don’t stay stateside while the led deploy to maintain their UAS.

Consistent in reading several articles/studies by current and retired USAF leaders that question the WWII-originated doctrine of centralized control/decentralized execution. Probably a good idea since the Marines and Army have proven for years that decentralized control AND execution can work quite well supporting subordinate tactical units.

Consistent in believing that the all seeing/all knowing CAOC and air tasking/joint targeting cycle is not such a smart idea in the 21st century. If the joint concept is to move toward smaller, more independent units, than why would airpower support remain consolidated under one senior, distant JFACC controlling a large room (no vulnerability there) with lots of staff guys at echelons above reality.

Read in one USAF officer article that some ATOs since 2005 list “XCAS” to permit taskings after take-off. Also see in Joint Doctrine that Baghdad had 4 CAS ROZ around it with 14 aircraft in each at different altitudes. Kind of defeats the idea of needing 2 days to plan and publish an ATO prior to launch, doesn’t it? Kind of eliminates the need for a single CAOC for that matter.

Finally, consistent in believing that a stateside distributed common ground system-Air Force fixed location or Creech ground control stations, cannot surpass Army versions of both sharing the hardships, coordination, and planning with deployed Soldiers, Marines, and Airmen.

Cole,
I’m not sure if you are making military posting or preaching as the disciple of somekind kooky “social movement”. Mission accomplishment & winning matters more than “sharing hardships”. You have not made your case on mission accomplishment.

Basically, according to you, our strategic and operational level problems in Iraq and Afghanistan are because the AF doesn’t work for the Army??? LOL.…The strategy was flawed in Iraq until the Marines showed the way (The Shieks) and the approach in Afghanistan ain’t ringing up winners.…all this because of the AF?? Green suiters have been in charge from these goat ropes from the start…but, according to you, things haven’t worked because of the inept employment of airpower…brilliant.

In Coles’ CONOP, we would eliminate all AF C&C including the CAOC and replace with what?? An Army 0–3 in a battlion HQ? But because the 0–3 is in a tent in theatre, sharing the hardships, air support would work better??

So, if the country listened to you & Darren and reduced AF force structure to obsolete fighters, UASs & Broncos, made AF pilots W01s/E-3s, and gave over all it’s C&C to Army officers…then the US would prevail in Afghanistan??? LOL.
If the AF is radically “rebalanced” to an irregular warfare force (as it may); what would happen in a different fight in 5 or 10 years, (even though the SecDef & others have said that conventional state on state war is over)…how would your low intensity, ground centric, ground controlled, tethered to the platoon leader Air Force fair in a high tech, high intensity, high threat fight?
OK? if I listen to you guys…this aerospace combat stuff is simple…not a problem…read a couple years worth of AvWeek, get a private pilot ticket and you got it! LOL.
Has it ever occurred to any of you guys that the ground strategy may be flawed?? You don’t hear airmen slamming ground guys…all we hear from you guys is the AF gets too much $$, buys the wrong force, doesn’t “share the hardship”, AF officers get paid too much, yada, yada, yada.
Ridiculous to the sublime.

Good Evening Cole,

On numbers I didn’t mention any I don’t think, I would say thats up to the National Command Authority to determine. I do think we have to win in Afghanistan, none of the popular post Vietnam less then victory stuff.

The problem as I see still although institutional with in the AF is communication between the pilot and the on site ground commander. If you recall in Hurricane Kartina, the CG chopper pilots went up with radios that they could monitor first responder traffic (the bought them at Radio Shack) the CG guys went to where they were needed and left their assigned AO’s. They disobeyed orders.

The Cosaties were blessed with Adm. Thadd Allen in command who saw that his plan wasn’t working and had the guts to scrapped it and let the Chopper guys do their thing, which was saving lives. The net result was dozens if not hundreds more lives saved,

I’m sure their was the traditional military a** chewing at the end of the mission for disobeying orders, as the crews got life saving medals, DSM’s and other medals for their efforts.

Point is that this is how response for air by ground troops should be handles, yes mistakes will be make, the current system if far form perfect but it would give flexibility to the air support mission.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

One major problem I see with the CAS is that a SHOW OF FORCE doesn’t constitute a CAS mission. If the Air Force were to stop these SHOW OF FORCE and actually drop the bombs on the taliban forces there would be less taliban to worry about. Thes SHOW OF FORCE may scare the taliban away for a little bit, but then they come back. Dropping the bombs would solve the problem.

so why are we using the fast-movers for ground support? Trying to up the “friendly fire” stats or what? What does the USAF think A-10’s & MQ-9’s are for? Both are specifically designed for this type of work so what does the AF do? Tosses out Mach 2 aircraft with trash hung all over them. when OH WHEN will the AF ever learn? fighters are “fighters”, not bombers, bombers are bombers and ground support are ground support. The MQ-9’s could actually be put up and left up to travel with the ground units with their day/night optics, air to ground capabilities and linger on scene times. But let’s use “go-fasts” that are 15 minutes out instead and bomb the crap out of “whatever” since we can’t target at 600 MPH.

The low-slow COIN idea is a very BAD idea. If you want to know why, read what happened to the Brewster Buffaloes in the Pacific theater in WWII and the Fairy Swordfish trying to sink the Bismark. Then toss in the ships called LST’s. The crews said it stood for “large, Slow, TARGETS”. Ca. crop-duster-like COIN’s would have the same problem. In order the be effective they’d be in the land of the “golden BB’s” and could be brought down by small arms, MANPADS and crew-served AA guns. GREAT idea!!

was army ranger advisor in vietnam.had a viet ranger bn. learned from two warrant officers flying a mohawk what the “guard” frequency was(243.6) . since I was a lieutenant without an RTO, I carried a prc-25 day and night. saw charlie, called on guard freq., usually a birddog answered, and had F-100’s with CBU’s or B-57’s with napalm,(liked the A1E Skyraiders best) whatever, and that’s how you should work air to ground commo and delivery. keep the generals cols. majors, out of it. period! fighting is done at the front.

I wonder who and how they (AF) determined the metric to provide air support should be 10–15 minutes. That sounds like a typical AF response, nothing solid and they probably have lots of Powerpoint slides to “prove it”. There are A10s, F16s, etc sitting in mothballs at Davis Monthan and the best they can do is 10–15 minutes. I wonder how much faster that metric would be if it was AF guys in contact or heaven forbid a pilot down? Do you think they might get out of their clubs a little faster and get their pretty and colorful neckerchiefs on? If the best they can do is 10–15 minutes then they are doing crap and needlessly costing lives! If a unit is moving out on a mission, the AF needs to be available as soon as the unit calls in the request, not 10–15 minutes later. 10–15 minutes? For the premier AF in the world??? You’ve got to be kidding. 10–15 minutes may be okay for a contingency or backup but it damn sure isnt okay for a unit in an engagement and sustaining losses… AF where the F*** are you? I know you can only do 4 — 5 months per deployment because we all know you dont want to be away from mommy for too long but Jeez, lets remember what your purpose is, which is to provide “Best in the World” Air Support to the ground troops. This flat pisses me off.

Add RQ-7 Shadow UAVs to the mix. They’re currently working on adding RCFC GPS guidance kits to 81mm mortars, for use as air-dropped ordnance:

http://​www​.defenseindustrydaily​.com/​M​o​r​t​a​r​s​-​f​r​o​m​-​A​i​r​c​r​a​f​t​-​T​h​e​-​S​h​a​d​o​w​-​K​n​o​w​s​-​0​5​2​26/

Ultimately, the solution looks a lot like Task Force ODIN: artillery (esp. GMLRS and ATACMS), light aircraft (which could be armed, via Viper Strike, RCFC, etc.), and UAVs of various types, with several layers of coordination removed. Fast movers weren’t really part of that equation, but could supplement as needed over the wider ground coverage required in Afghanistan, and assist with show-of-force interventions (which are useful — there’s much more to Afghan ops than just fights with hard-core Taliban).

http://​www​.defenseindustrydaily​.com/​T​a​s​k​-​F​o​r​c​e​-​O​D​I​N​-​I​n​-​t​h​e​-​V​a​l​l​e​y​s​-​o​f​-​t​h​e​-​B​l​i​n​d​-​0​5​2​50/

It’s hard to compete with MLRS/HIMARS artillery, however, for long term presence, cost-effective operation, and fast response. Bashing the USAF may actually distract from the required solutions here — given Afghanistan’s larger “active footprint,” a precision-enabled version of the Ridgway approach may be called for, with aerial assets mostly acting as the sensor net and secondary support options.

Bring back the Army’s Air Corp!!! the AF doesnt’ have money? Well somebody needs to tell them that at BAF and Uzbekistan… beer permanent barracks better MWR’s which the army is not allowed in.. sheesh where are the leaders who used to enbed with their troops? I guess the command in FL has a better view from there… You tell me how long 5 minutes under fire feels like… 2 deployment to Iraq one to Afghanistan… Infantryman… i know

DShirley wrote, “Should the increase in troops be only American? This is a NATO operation and our allies should contribute. The White House should engage our allies and move out smartly.”

LTC Shirley, evidently you don’t know squat about NATO. NATO is just a bunch of European countries on welfare from the US taxpayer. None of those countries are going to do crap over there except the bare minimum.

LTC Shirley, you can’t be a US Army LTC without being well-educated, but you didn’t learn crap in your classes.

I knew when Bush turned over Afghan ops to NATO it was going to be the flustercuck that it is… and if you could not see that, those silver leaves on your shoulders shouldn’t be there.

Run a few Raider units out there, with their own LNO, fills the gaps left by drones.

SOS! The four star is trying to shut down the two star for voicing an inconvenient truth. Just as he would have shut down anyone who tried to tell him that things were less than wonderful when he went to Afghanistan (let me guess — at the end of one month and into the next, to get two months of hostile fire pay?). If the Navy would bring back my trusry old A6E TRAM, I’d come out of retirement to provide the Marines the CAS they need and deserve.
As we used to say, “When the monkeys at the top of the tree look down, all they see are smiling faces, and when those at the bottom look up, all they see are “butt holes.” Or something like that.

A couple of comments

The USAF runs it’s ops like an airline, if it isn’t scheduled or if it might RON in a dirt hole it won’t fly

The AH-64 looks good on paper but it spends a lot of time on the ground and doesn’t have the legs to stay on station. There is a good reason why the 160th uses DAPS (armed MH-60) and not the apache

The army needs something. Like the AD-1 skyraider. It has the legs and the load and proved itself very capable in Vietnam but because it lacks panache and the sort of network centric bullsh** so popular in DC it won’t come back

Finally the USAF had no interest whatsoever in the C-27J until it looked like the army might actually get them to do the job that the AF doesn’t want which is what the Sherpa pilots do every day without recognition. The C-23 responds on demand to ground commanders needs.

Seeing that they might lose their cushy C-130 reputation they thoroughly interfered and have totally f***ed up the aquisition so badly that there is probably not a bigger example of a blue falcon in US military aviation history.

The bottom line is that the USAF has lost it’s relevance and needs to be put back into the Army where it can learn what proper CAS looks like. For starters they ought to spend some time with the MARINES.

Herr Gen. Brady is not sure “what the problem is” in Afghanistan w close air? C’mon, general. Your bosses, military and civilian, including the past the current presidents, have noted we are inflicting too much collateral damage (killing and destruction) on civilians. That ain’t the thing to do in a counter-ins. environment, right? Stop looking at your instruments and look at the ground for change, general.

(Deep breath)

OK people, please check up on the national debt of your beloved country. You might be surprised: The U.S is on welfare!

Thomas, with the U.S in debt as deep as it is, it’s actually your so-called “European countries on welfare from the US taxpayer” that are footing the bill; dying while covering your flanks up north; fighting there for years. Your Johnny-come-lately comment is not appreciated by the Dutch forces. Keep talking like that, we might be out next year and you can re-take Uruzgan, OK? I’m pretty sure the Aussies, Canadians, almost all forty nations from all over the world, with some 60K troops in total, feel the same way.

Check a map of the country you are fighting in, for pete’s sake! Better yet, try to find it on a globe! Read up on history and economy! Then, open your mouth.

(Sigh. They never learn, dear Lord.)

10 to 15 minutes is a joke.

David:

How to said this nicely. You are the poster boy of why a little knowledge is dangerous. You understand that the Buffaloes and the Swordfish fell to then modern fighter support and that a COIN scenario presumes that we own everything that flies, right? During the same world war, P-47 and F4U Corsairs did a sterling job in CAS with the A1E Skyraider emerging as the premiere propeller driven CAS aircraft.

Any new prop driven aircraft would be at the A1E level, no aircraft’s that were obsolete before the start of WWII.

So going back to our main discussion, we need air support that can be managed at the lowest command levels. When the AF maintains such out of touch metrics, they are at risk of writing themselves into irrelevance.

I agree 100% with (cabgx2),you have troops out on a mission,there should be close air support..no lag time to commit A/C …if these “generals“have a better plan for air support lets hear a good one…my plan is to put a “general” with all missions,then you will see the air support…

Since there is a large concern for collateral damage, why not smarten up 100 and 250 lbs bombs. Why put a 2000 lbs bomb on an individual or a small grouping?

For that matter, if it is loiter you want, use a B-52 to with such a load. With the proper hanging system in the bomb bay, it would seem like there was a bomb factory up there.

VNCcc

Good Post.

Great thread, except for the dumbasses who seem to keep trying to move off topic.

Support the troops.

As an addendum to the below I’d recommend folks to check out Michael Yon’s site and read up on what he has to say…

There is a “conflict of opinion” as to what commanders on the ground want, available force levels in Afghanistan and the global demands on the force. Army flag officers have told him that they want two F-16s for every battalion out there. The Air Force cannot produce that, he said. There are just not enough people.

for robertro2 et al;
That would be the ideal, but
1. Murphy’s version of reality says that the F16 on station will get called to support someone else just before it gets hot on your patrol.
2. with patrols going out in everything down to the squad level, you just don’t have enough aircraft…not just a hit on the USAF, but all mil aircraft, but especially helicopters…
again check out http://​www​.michaelyon​-online​.com/

Like an oldie but goodie, USAF wants the whole sand box for themselves.…the take…take…and take. I say give the Army back its planes it knows what it needs! USMC does not really have this problem as our job is CAS! But the USAF wants all the glory so they take all the funds from other services for new toys they dont even use in a war! A Marine air winger knows what a grunt needs. The simple solution is to have CAS cover for all operations going on! If you want to win this war…take the muzzle off the dog and let him really attack!!!

Sounds like it’s time to roll the USAF back into the USA. The US Army developed air power for CAS and it was expanded to strategic bombing. Now there is no strategic bombing being used and there isn’t enough CAS. The troops since WWII rely on CAS, not 10 or 15 minutes away, but orbiting in their box. Drones armed with missiles can go a long way to help in this situation.

Gents, the AF has done great things for the force (no i’m not in the AF, army all the way)but no doubt there are some serious problems right now and all starts from the head shed. Guys on the ground are being hamstringed as the jerks in the “chair” are making decisions for guys on the ground. In addition, its obvious maybe we dont have enough platforms in theater to service the request. But keep in mind it is impossible to provide air to every patrol all the time, that is unrealistic so please use some common sense. One thing that I want to point out that many will not agree. We are becoming dangerously to dependent on airpower in this fight. trust me i enjoy calling in air but we act like we cannot fight UW without it. ALCON are unhappy with 10–15 min response time, and I understand why. consider the platforms involved and then the restraints from higher, and the nature of the conflict. Bottom-line there will never be a definitive answer.

We are making huge mistakes with procurment and development of a bonified ground support aircraft. the A-10 perfect for this role but like many have said its not sexy. I also like the idea of using a B-52/B-1 with 250lbs ordance, it would seem like an endless store up top. remember the AF budget might be bigger or perceived to take a large portion of the budget because it is expensive to build, maintain and deploy aircraft. This problem is not difficult to solve just takes someone with common sense, with a pair of “sacks” to make the right decision. However, one thing needs to change is the guys on the ground need to have a say in this fight to often the GO’s muff this up.

chris, I hear you, but realistically, when we bail will the Afghan Army have access to 15 minute or much of ANY air support? Would we trust for calls for air support the same way we would a JTAC?

If we are trying to train the Afghan Army how to fight without us, is teaching them dependence on airpower or even artillery such a great idea?

The situation the Marines faced in that ambush is exactly why the Air Force mission needs to be changed. All close air support should be provide by Navy/Marine Corps air assets…CAS is part of the training every pilot in both branches trains for. All decisions to render CAS should be made by the Navy/Marine Corps command structure…a much smaller vertical command structure than now exists.

S/F Gordon

Okay, Cole,

I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt here…

Just a few thoughts as they cross my mind:

What Afghan Army?

Seems the traditional way the Afghans fight already works well enough for them.

Why let the enemy have any advantage? We’ve got the stuff, so let’s use it (when it makes sense), and, keep finding ways to use it better.

Assuming there will be an Afghan Army for our troops to hand off to, yes, if they call air support, we should trust them. Seems like a very hypothetical case at this point, though.

Gordon, you think the navy/marines should just absorb the air force then? talk about a low down power grab in the midst of a tragedy. i assume you think the navy/marine cas is perfect then by nature of having marine/navy on the side of the bird. i can put together a list of stuff they fed up also if you want. im curious you haven’t served have you?

Time to roll out the old AD Skyraider aircraft. Good for loiter and they can be called in for fights. They have already been paid for. They are rugged and can survive a lot of battle damage. Put mini-guns under the wings.

Also, someone made a very good suggestion on the the use of mothballed F-5 light-weight fighters. They are cheap and they are fast. They can carry mini-guns as well as other guns. You don’t need sophistication in a down and dirty brawl!

Another suggestion is to train Air Force NCOs and Army NCOs and Warrant Officers to fly these fighters. Marine NCOs as well! It doesn’t take a college grad to fly an airplane.
British NCO pilots were very instrumental in holding off the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britian in WW2.
If we had relied on college grads to fly American planes in World War Two, we would have lost the war. Plus many of today’s Army chopper pilots are Warrant Officers. The Air Force hasn’t had Warrant Officers for decades. At least the Army pilots and Marine pilots would be familiar with talking to the grunts on the ground.

In war, you have got to do what is necessary to win. Screw military bureaucratic BS! Do what you have to do in order to get the job done. Quit wasting the taxpayers money! As well as the lives of our people on the ground!

This suggestion would provide a whole lot more pilots in a hurry, and save money, as well, since these NCOs and Warrant Officers have already been through basic training and a lot more.

I know that I will get a lot of “establishment” flak on this one!

Just for arguement’s sake:
Suppose, for every $200 million aircraft, we had an equivalent buy in crop dusters? Could we deploy enough crop dusters to give every division it’s own “air force”? Every Brigade? Maybe, even every battalion or company? Sure, they don’t fly fast, but they’d be close enough to compensate and under local command. Plus, a barnyard mechanic can fix a piston-cylender engine, which are the only parts the desert dust would wear out, vs a turbine engine, which desert dust fouls, often irrepairably, and requires a well trained maintainance crew. As for the actual fighting, close coordination with ground troops can suppress RPG gunners and the like, to some extent, and coordination is what it’s all about. We’re fighting an enemy that doesn’t have an air force. If it flies, it’s got air superiority. The ticket is numbers, vs high tech “fire brigade” air squadrons that are just going to run up huge maintainance bills pounding the air traffic lanes and never be on site, soon enough. Once we establish local control, ground convoys can take the burden off the CH-47 supply: piston engines. Counter-insurgent warfare is a close, dirty, personal sort of thing, and the new doctrine says “be everywhere at once”. Cheap, robust aircraft is the only way to support that, because high tech expenses just makes attrition work against us, all the faster, and attrition is Osama’s whole strategy. Additionally, “winning hearts and minds” is essentail,but just avoiding collateral damage isn’t even half of it. A Russian LT. in the 1980’s developed a good relationship with the locals, provided protection from “bandits”, food, fuel and sat in on local disputes. He got good intelligence and played a winning hand at ambush-counter ambush with the local mujihideen. Because he was there,and established himself as the local authority, who wasn’t going away, and who could win the local game of bushwacking. As collateral damage, he got good enough intelligence from his trustees to know where to hit. He wasn’t the typical Soviet commander. But, he was a good one. He didn’t have any air craft. HE also didn’t have a Halibourton, Civil Affairs burocracy building schools with no teachers-he just listened to the local gripes and improvised out of company stores. His own burocracy couldn’t have cared less for his strategy. So, OK, we’re not going to get Snoopy’s Sopwith Camel out of mothballs, but I hope I’ve made a point. I figure that our time to prove ourselves to Afgahnistan is long gone, but, giving notice that any terrorist group can bomb NYC and get away with it, if they are persistant enough, isn’t good, either. Also, it’s not Afgahnistan that we’re at war with, it’s the Taliban. The 140,000 man Russian 40th Army wound up at war with Afgahnsitan, after they’d killed, maimed or dislocated about half the population, and they lost. Spread out, hold and choke is a good idea, sort of like the Boer War, but nobody can afford enough expensive hardware to do that. I don’t know. A couple Huey Cobras to beat up a 20 man insurgent team at the company level would make me feel better than an F-16, 100 miles away. Just my thoughts, which I’m sure won’t go anywhere.

The United States has the ability, resources, knowledge, skill, manpower, and means to locate and neutralize terrorism. The war against terrorism needs to be high priority a multinational effort. Are we doing enough to protect our troops?

Hang on, I’ll get you the CAS, as soon as I get done with my CBT training, then get put on the Cert roster, and don’t forget to get guidance from Training and QA.

Any reference to F22’s in this debate is pointless…F22’s are for air dominance, which we had on day one in OEF. Just because they haven’t been used doesn’t mean they don’t serve a purpose. How many Abrams tanks are being used in OEF? If the answer is “none” does that mean we should get rid of them? No…
Providing 24/7 CAS for every unit in a country the size of Afghanistan is not physically possible regardless of budget or what service the a/c belong to or numbers of a/c.

Look, we have always learned the hard way that in every war we have been in, we NEED an aircraft that can hang around for long periods of time or that can be stationed close, so that if the grunts need help, it’s there quickly. I’m sorry but the F-35 can not do that, with the exception that the model the Marines will use can be stationed close, but it can not hang around for long periods of time. The A-10 is perfect for this role. Maybe the F-35 can replace the AV8B, F-16, F-18, but not the A-10, no way. When I hear how the F-35 is a jack of all trades, I am reminded of the F-111 debacle. I gaurantee you that we will learn the hard way when we mothball all of these aircraft and go soley with the F-35. Just for the record, I don’t believe that it can stand up to the SU-35 either. I am not against having the F-35, I am just against being totally dependant on it for CAS. I would like to see a new attack aircraft with the firepower of the A-10 and the ability to hang around for long periods of time.

The problem with the flying military is a total lack of effective communication,
Generals are afraid to make immediate decisions for fear of not getting the next promotion.
In the interim, soldiers die for nothing.
Civilian politics stifles military effectiveness.

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