GCV — Tracked, Auto Guns, 40 Tons?

GCV — Tracked, Auto Guns, 40 Tons?

The veil will be partially lifted next week but almost nobody outside a small group in the Army knows what the service’s new Ground Combat Vehicle will look like or what it will be expected to do.

Earlier this week at the Army’s annual conference in Washington, Chief of Staff Gen. Gorge Casey said it’s still too early in the process to know what it will look like, though he did leave people guessing if he was right about its weight being 25,000 pounds.

Since the Army isn’t talking until next week’s industry day, we spoke with an array of senior industry leaders at the Association of the US Army’s annual show. They know there’s a lot of money at stake. When Defense Secretary Robert Gates killed Future Combat Systems earlier this year, he said around $90 billion that would have gone to develop the FCS vehicles would be walled off and made available for the Army’s follow on fighting vehicle effort.

(Even when the Army speaks next week there may not be much detail. No requirements document will be presented then. A draft requirements document is likely in early November.)

About all we know officially is that Gen. Casey told reporters two days ago that the first version of the vehicle “would probably” be “too heavy” and he acknowledged those who say the Army is risking much as it plans to deploy the first vehicles within five to seven years. But he answered those critics, saying “it just makes sense that we ought to be able to do this.”

The only other detail: the new vehicle will bear “nine to 10 troops,” Casey said.

About all the Army has said is that it wants an infantry fighting vehicle, that it must carry around ten troops and that it must be resistant to IEDs.

Greg and Colin spoke to a number of industry folks who have been in the armored vehicle business for a long time and got their best guess of what the GCV might look like.

To build IED resistance into a vehicle requires ground clearance, shaped hull and specially designed armor. To protect against underbelly blasts, the vehicle floor must be at least 18 inches off the ground. A V-shaped hull will deflect the blast out and away from the crew compartment. A combination of reactive armor tiles, spaced armor and composite materials has proven effective in defeating the deadly Explosively Formed Penetrator IEDs that fire a molten slug of copper into the side of a vehicle, most often from about a foot or so off the ground.

The major departure from the FCS vehicle design in the new vehicle effort will be “integral survivability,” said Mark Signorelli, BAE vice president for new combat vehicles. The FCS vehicles were supposed to rely on situational awareness provided by electronic sensors and speed to survive on the battlefield and were not heavily armored for close combat.

The Army now says networking and sensor technology can improve a vehicle’s survivability, but real survivability must be inherent in the vehicle, he said. In other words, the vehicle must be able to take and survive a hit. MRAP-like survivability doesn’t get you combat survivability, which means the ability to survive kinetic hits from auto– and larger cannon, Signorelli said. For that you need heavy armor.

As for weapons systems, to fit both a turret bustle, such as that on BAE’s Bradley fighting vehicle, and a squad into a vehicle, would require a very large vehicle. That may push industry into going with an unmanned turret, Signorelli said. The most likely weapon is an auto-cannon and coaxial machine gun, and probably anti-armor missiles.

To get both cross-country mobility and vehicle survivability in the same package, “leads you to a tracked solution,” Signorelli said. As the Marines and other have learned, many of the MRAP wheeled vehicles weigh in at more than 30 tons and have almost no off-road mobility.

Other industry sources Greg spoke with agreed that the GCV will be tracked. It will probably be required to have the mobility of a Bradley, the sustainability of a Stryker and the lethality of a Bradley, one source said. “MRAP objective threat” protection on the bottom and all-around armor protection against at least 30mm auto-cannon, said another. That means a vehicle in the 40– to 50-ton range.

Armor may be the area with the greatest number of surprises, one industry source said. The increasingly modular approach to armor may well mean vehicles are designed with a base level of protection and then deploy with bolt-on kits to make them easier to transport and to give troops flexibility once in theater.

The main gun version of GCV (closest thing to a tank) may be the most heavily armored base model so it can deploy to theater and roll right into battle, said one industry source. However, armor advances of the last three to four years may allow development of vehicles that are lighter than 40 tons. Other versions may well go into battle with lighter armor able to resist a wide range of IEDs and carry armor kits to beef up their protection.

Mobility wise, the Army is expected to specify a mission mobility profile of 40 percent of the time off-road, 40 percent on semi-improved road and 20 percent on paved roads. Again, that drives the vehicle towards a tracked solution, the sources said.

Getting a new fighting vehicle fielded by 2017 limits the number of technological solutions industry can propose, Signorelli said. “Given the time line they’re talking about, there’s not time to say here’s the Chinese menu of technological solutions you go figure out what you want.” As for how far along BAE got with its FCS vehicle design before the program was terminated, he said the company was still at least two years away from a prototype fighting vehicle.

BAE is confident they can leverage their decades long experience building the Bradley and win the competition if the Army goes with a tracked solution for the GCV. BAE says the Bradley chassis can also be used as the basis for a family of vehicles, ranging from field ambulance to command vehicle, to replace the Army’s ubiquitous but ageing and thinly armored M-113 collection of vehicles, which the service intends to do soon.

Colin Clark contributed mightily to this story.

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I sincerely hope they don’t fatten this thing up so that it sucks at everything like they did the Bradley and the EFV. Mission creep and adding more toys is the death of any acquisition program.

“As for weapons systems, to fit both a turret bustle, such as that on BAE’s Bradley fighting vehicle, and a squad into a vehicle, would require a very large vehicle. That may push industry into going with an unmanned turret”

That’s good, the enemy loves seeing soldiers sitting ontop of a big bullet magnet. Especially snipers.

As the ETA on a fielding date is 2017, that gives multiple defense secretaries, and a couple new administrations the chance to screw with the requirements. (As TMB posted)

BAE has a Bradley tech demonstrator with an unmanned turret. The VC and Gunner sit in the crew compartment and look at flat-screens to see through the viewports. It frees up alot of space inside , since you don’t have to rotate people around. I think the TD fit 8 or 9 dismounts versus 6 in the current M2A3 Bradley.

If you build it to withsatnd an IED, the IED will get bigger and better too

Maybe we should spend some of that money on R & D to find the IED’s

Doesn’t seem like too much of a variation on the old MBT designs.

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

A decent amount of money is already being spent on finding IED’s. This is one contributing reason that there have been fewer fatalities, more and more are disarmed. Its just that spotting them is not full proof. Survivability requires layers of protection, spotting and detection is only the first layer to that defense. If IED’s get “bigger” it only makes them easier to detect, allowing the sum of the two layers of defense to be more than the sum of its parts.

Maybe the best way to avoid mission creep on the GCV is to reduce requirments for the turret and weapon systems and have a number of dedicated gun platforms. What necessitates larger weapons on these types of troop combat vehicles is a lack of light tanks that traditionally provided this sort of close infatry fire support. Multiple roles in one, will always sacrifice something or increase the weight.

Gary & Jeff– good points. I think it’s useful to point out that we’re dealing with IEDs now because we got behind the power curve with these COIN/ Nation-building ops and the insurgencies got too organized. Maybe we ought to deal with the strategic/ tactical/ operational issues we’re having rather than (or in addition to) trying to fix our screw-ups with new hardware.

A 40 ton APC? Just where are you going to drive that thing? Basically only on roads and flat terrain. They seem to design systems based on the war we just fought, instead of thinking outside the box. Say we had the thing right now. Would it be any good in Afghanistan? No, all it would be is a bomb magnet on the one highway in the country. Also, what is with this trend of putting big cannons on APC’s? That is not the role of such vehicles, they are not tanks and they are not mobile artillary. I hope they haven’t spent so much money on it that they can’t turn back, because they need to get back to the drawing board.

Apart from the dismount numbers to be carried you have described the German Puma almost exactly!

With a weight of 40–50 tons I presume it is a tracked vehicle. With a 9–10 troop capacity I like the potential of this vehicle.

A 40–50 ton vehicle would have plenty of armor protection, possibly comparable to some MBTs. Add an unmanned turret with 30mm or 35mm autocannon, coax MG, and ATGM launcher, and you have one hell of an IFV to replace the Bradley.

The potential of the vehicle will only upgrade the potential of the IED, such a heavy vehicle once stuck, stays stuck. Not the way to go!
Eddy

Has this vehicle been tested by an IED and a shaped charge?

The vehicle exits on paper only thus far, awful hard to test it against anything more deadly than a stapler.

I’ve been reading about this on various sites and was directed here.
Something I haven’t seen anyone commenting on yet was, “… Chief of Staff Gen. Gorge Casey said it’s still too early in the process to know what it will look like, though he did leave people guessing if he was right about its weight being 25,000 pounds.…”

25,000 pounds?
(where did this guy do his career again, exactly?)

The FCS platforms couldn’t do as promised in their orignial hoped-for 20 tons weight, to the point it was anticipated production vehicles could exceed 27 tons.
And yet here someone has the audacity (stupidity?) to suggest 25,000 pounds?
That’s a mere 12&1/2 tons…might as well buy those Stormer AFVs, the ones developed by improving on the 9-ton Scorpion CVR(T) family.

And to think they were worried about adequate protection at 20 tons?
Was this originally drawn up on April 1st, or am I the only one who isn’t getting the joke?

Put an auto loader in it and run it!

My idea: procure an Americanized version of the cv90 family. I believe there are versions in production or developed that fill all of the armys roles for the gcv. Additionally, this vehicle could leverage tech developed for FCS like band tracks, active protection, and hybrid drive to give us a family of vehicles that is able to be quickly developed, deployed, and affordable. To keep costs down further, the US and UK could also share development costs as the fres program is very similar. Imagine the costs that could be saved by having a family of vehicles that have a high parts commonality and easy interoperability with our closest ally.

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