Small Arms Jammed at Wanat

Small Arms Jammed at Wanat

An Army report on the Wanat battle shows that the small arms used in the battle showed significant levels of failure, malfunctioning and jamming “at high cyclic rates of fire.” The weapons include the M4 and SAW.

According to a draft version of the report, the most damning conclusions are compiled in its recommendations section. It documents M4s fouling, and one instance where an M4 fouled and the Soldier picked up a SAW and that was jammed up as well.

In one instance, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips had multiple M4 failures:


Staff Sergeant Phillips poured out fire, as recalled by another Engineer Specialist loading for him, “ [SSG Phillips] went through three rifles using them until they jammed.”

SSG Phillips recalled: “My M4 quit firing and would no longer charge when I tried to correct the malfunction. I grabbed the Engineers SAW and tried to fire. It would not fire, so I lifted the feed tray tried clearing it out and tried to fire again. It would not.”

As you know, Defense Tech as been at the forefront of the debate over whether a better solution to the current M4 configuration is out there. It’s pretty clear that the gas impingement system is maintenance intensive. And I recall all too well when I confronted PEO Soldier officials with a hypothetical instance very similar to this during a brief I had at the Pentagon on the dust tests conducted on multiple carbine types at Aberdeen. I posited the battle of Fallujah, where Marines and Soldiers were fighting for days on end with barely enough time to eat or sleep. Keeping your weapon clean is arguably as important as eating, some crusty old gunnies and sergeants first class would argue, but if the carbine you’re carrying is maintenance intensive and you’ve got better options out there that can stand up to more abuse, how can you tell that trooper if his gun jams in that situation that it’s all his fault?

Well, it looks like the Wanat battle, at least in part, may have brought up that issue…but has it?

According to the report, the Soldiers had kept their weapons religiously maintained. It looks like the single point of failure might have been the high cyclic rates they were operating under and the M4 just wasn’t able to catch up.

Some GWOT and U.S. Army veterans queried by the author have suggested that this could have been caused by improper weapon cleaning. However, numerous Chosen Few NCOs interviewed for this study have been vehemently adamant in stating that weapons were meticulously and regularly cleaned, and rigorously and routinely inspected by the chain of command. Other GWOT veterans consulted have noted that the high rates of fire sustained during the two hour intense engagement phase at Wanat could possibly have contributed to these failures. However, numerous weapons failed relatively early in the engagement (particularly a number of M-4 rifles and at one SAW at the mortar pit), and in any event the maintenance of cyclic rates of fire was critical to restore fire superiority, and to prevent positions (particularly at OP Topside) from being overrun by determined, numerous, and hard pressed insurgent assaults.

The report goes on to suggest that the PEO Soldier work to find a solution to this problem.

We could go on for hours on this, and I thinks it’s appropriate to do that in a forum like this. I’m digging through my old notes, but I’m pretty sure that “high cyclic rates” were addressed in the dust test, and the M4 came out near the bottom of the pack on that amongst its competitors. The Army keep saying that surveys have shown that 94 percent of Soldiers say they’re satisfied with the M4. But as I replied when confronted with this straw man argument, isn’t it hard to say whether you’re truly satisfied with a weapon unless you have some experience with other options — umm, like the special operations forces do? And what do they prefer? The HK 416 and the SCAR, which are both less maintenance-intensive, gas piston operating systems.

What does this say about the Corps’ program for the Infantry Automatic Rifle? Why replace a good portion of your automatic weapons with one that only has a 30 round magazine? And, I could be wrong on this, but aren’t M4s assigned to straight leg infantry units configured to fire in three-round bursts and semi auto? Only special operators have ones with a full auto switch? If this instance shows anything that a counterinsurgency strategy demonstrates, it’s that small units will likely be confronted with superior numbers of bad guys and will need to pour out the lead when the you-know-what hits the fan. And what about weapons tactics training? There’s a scary line in the report that quotes one of the Soldiers saying he was unprepared for such an Alamo style fight. You’d have thought since Blackhawk Down we’d be teaching how to hold off wave attacks with superior fire.

There are so many more actionable lessons to the drawn from the report, and I encourage DT readers to scour through it again. But kudos to the AP reporter who brought this out and one has to wonder whether the Army will work toward a more rugged solution as it explores options to the M4 this year.

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The bottom line seems to be: when you are vastly outnumbered and can’t get air support quickly — you are probably gonna lose. Even if the weapons had NOT jammed — would a small number of people have been able to hold off a large, determined, casualty-insensitive attacker?? I would ask why the Allied folks were out from under air support? Were there other engagements that were being fought?

I understand, from talking to my brother (US Army retired, now tests equipment for the Army) that the vast majority of the M-4s have the three round burst mode — before, we fired 1.5 million rounds per enemy hit. A full auto feature mainly wastes lots of ammo. Some M-4s do have the full automatic feature.

So I take away the fact that is is tough to issue a weapon, carried by a single person. that will allow a small patrol to defeat a large attack. That is why we have tactics that tell patrols to stay under air cover.

Air support is always an iffy thing…but where was the artillery? Was the lack of supporting fires due to ROE?
Next, its been pretty much fleshed out that they were firing the weapons at the maximum rate of fire, not the sustained rates. That’s going to break any rifle. I’m not going to monday morning quarterback them but if they were putting down maximum rates of fire, then the malfunctions become more understandable. Regardless…lessons learned are what counts.

The SEALS MK48 titanium 7.62X51 caliber machine gun is being suggested toreplacethe gun in use there. Once you begin high rates of fire, you have to get the heat out or risk feed failure or cook offs.

The 7.62X51 should be standard for the ranges involved in AFPAK and considering the terminal performance at range. If you are going to use the 5.56 caliber round, then the uppers have to be piston driven to move the hot gases away from the bolt, reducing the rate of temperature rise. The barrel must be at least 24″ to increase the velocity of the 5.56 round to have effective performance at 600 meters, with inclination and wind deviations reduced due to the increase performance. The 7.62X51 barrels should be at least 32–34″ which would effectively make the round perform like a .300 win mag downrange.

Now this should only be done for the expert marksmen. Barrel and chamber cooling has to be aided by cooled sleeves filled with antifreeze or water during sustained fire. These uppers should be used during defensive positions and converted back to M-4 upper at assault patrols.

I believe that the US Army has heard of the lubricant Militec-1. It’s an ideal product for the M-4 and the SAW,
especially in the dusty and gritty Afghan environment. This product will significantly reduce weapon jammings. It’s also made in the US.

See here:
http://​ricks​.foreignpolicy​.com/​p​o​s​t​s​/​2​0​0​9​/​1​0​/​1​0/t…
It seems much of the problem wasn’t just with the small arms, but the inane location that some officer decided to position the troops in. They were at the bottom of a valley with no supporting outposts that had higher ground.

So on top of the issues of reliability, our small arms also had to engage enemies that had higher elevation. Someone really screwed up on this one!

Aside from having Afghan forces as your tripwire, what happened with having Claymores and even more this century, Spider mines that are remotely controlled? If civilian casualties were a concern they could have even used non-lethal mines that would have incapicated the enemy. See here: http://​www​.textrondefense​.com/​n​e​w​s​/​i​n​_​t​h​e​_​n​e​w​s​/12…

http://​defense​-update​.com/​p​r​o​d​u​c​t​s​/​s​/​s​p​i​d​e​r​.​htm

As for organic fire support, why not have ground based DAGR rockets that are essentially the 76mm rockets that Apaches fire except these are laser guided so you have precision fires? http://​www​.lockheedmartin​.com/​p​r​o​d​u​c​t​s​/​D​A​G​R​/​i​n​dex… — this would increase organic firepower at the platoon level.

Just so we’re all on the same page here, this article refers to the battle of Wanat, which took place 08 JUL 2008. This is not the battle of COP Keating, which took place on 03 OCT 2009 (last week).

The battle at Keating did not have an element of ROE conflict so far as I am aware. The Ricks article that ATACMS references notes that the 120mm mortar crew at Keating was effectively neutralized early in the battle by enemy fire, and the 120mm at OP Fritche were ineffective. Nothing has come out so far to indicate that the use of any weapon system was refused or prohibited by ROE.

There are many guns out there that are way better then the M16’s and M4’s. (I personally like the HK-416, but probably are even newer/better guns out now) That are both cheaper and easier to maintain. Plus can be jammed packed with mud/sand/dust or w.e you find, and still fire without any jams. If our military (but mostly politicians) ignored the cost, and embedded military industrial complex. Our soldiers would be better off. Having the M4 (which is only a M16 from the 1960’s on slimfast) being used in the 21st century is bull.

I am with Zach on this. There are a number of better weapons out there. Why should our soldiers be subjected to inferior weaponry just because it is built in the United States? The idea of American Exceptionalism should be question in the face of facts. We don’t make the best weapons. Europeans make the best small arms.

“If our military (but mostly politicians) ignored the cost, and embedded military industrial complex. Our soldiers would be better off. Having the M4 (which is only a M16 from the 1960’s on slimfast) being used in the 21st century is bull.”

Well put Zach. Well put.

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

Ideally we should switch to a new caliber in the 6mm range. Yet since this is unlikely we might as well just upgrade to an improved 5.56mm design. The M4 carbine and current M16 assault rifles are not bad weapons. But we can do better.

For awhile now the Army had been holding out for a major improvement such as caseless or telescoping ammunition (see LSAT). Yet they have been waiting too long and should upgrade to a new rifle design, even if it is supposed to be a short-term solution.

The M16’s 50th birthday is coming up in a few years and I imagine the US army will still be issuing M4s & M16s when that day hits.

The worst part is is that there are much better, more flexible, much more reliable weapons out there for the same price that you get an M4. The SAME price. Yet still new orders for M4s are just still being made and lives are being put in danger because of it.

The reason the AK is still widely used is because it reliable. The reason the M4 is still being used is completely beyond me. Why not just spend the same money on a gun which is much more reliable, has better ergonomics, better features and the ability to switch calibre?

Spending billions on super high-tech flying drones is great, but when your guys on the ground are using a outdated piece of junk that cant handle a little sand (which is kinda relevant when you are fighting in a very sandy country.….…) then something is wrong with your acquisition process.

what is new it seem we had th same trubly with m16a1 in vn

Finally, someone comes out and says the AK-47 is reliable!! Of course perhaps WarScientist does not know that there are various versions of the venerable AK. Claiming that the “AK is reliable” is a fast way to prove that you do not know anything about assault rifles and little about the military. The various versions of the AK (AK-47 and more recent AK-74 but let’s not get into the details here) are rugged, cheap, tolerant of dirt, cheap, stamped metal vs machined, etc. If you take a sample of a thousand of the “brand name” versions most of them will work. But you cannot compare them to the reliability of the M-4 or M-16 under most conditions. You cannot compare them to the excellent European versions of the assault rifle. The AK (and semi-auto SKS) is based on the excellent German WW2 StG44 which was all machined steel. The AK is stamped and the tolerances are far bigger — so it handles dirt and ice pretty well. But manufacturing standards are normally low and even fresh off the assembly line versions will have to be used to determine which parts should be replaced right away.

The M-16 (and M-4) have the reputation of jamming due to very early use in wet conditions where people were used to the M-14 and did not regularly allow water to drain from the barrels. But you can bet your life on any M-4 fresh off the assembly line and any of them that has been maintained since assembly.
Of course the AK in it’s many versions is a lot older than the M-16 as if that made any difference. It is really just a verision of the WW2 German weapon, still. The newer AK-74 even has a smaller bullet than the M-4 — 5.45 mm vs the US issued 5.56 mm.
Given a choice between grabbing an M-4 from the armory or any AK — grab the M-4. You will have a far better chance of surviving.

Charles Phillips
LtCol, USAF Ret

OK I can’t hold myself back from expanding a bit on the excellent European versions of the M-16, of course I am talking about the ultra-reliable Heckler and Koch HK416! If we could drop the M-4 we should switch to the HK-416. It also offers the capability to switch calibers (5.56 or 7.62) for those big bullet purists.

Many comments, many good points. I was with the 2/503rd TF Rock for those 15 Months in Afghanistan. I knew and work with some of the fallen Heroes at Wanat. The issues with all the weapons, not just M4s, was mostly Maintenance and lubrication. I fired 8 to 10 Mags without a single issue, other times, after 10 rounds, it jammed. A lot of the weapons at Wanat, got direct hit by the enemy. I can vouch for that, I handcarry at least 10 of them to Bagram (SAC-C) to get exchange for new ones. there were M14, M249, M4, M203s. Larger weapons like MK19 and .50cal were also damage, but repair parts sent days later to be repair at the near large FOB. Some M240B got also direct hit, but were still operational. There were many things that went wrong at Wanat, not just weapons failures.

Aside from the obvious disadvantage in outpost positioning, which was the major problem, there remains the FPF(Final Protective Fire) situation report, which non of us can accurately speak of unless we were there.

So, let us look at what can be corrected with the small arms, the rounds shot to kill ratio. This is where you can make the immediate rate of fire reduction thereby, reducing the heat rise and ultimate failure to fire situation that has been reported. Barrels get extremely hot after 200 rounds are fired in a short period of time, let’s say 2 minutes. Reduce the time that 200 rounds are fired, example 15 minutes and you can sustain 13–14 rounds per minute with accurate single shot performance, that is if the round that you are firing has enough terminal performance in ft lbs on energy and still remaining supersonic, when it hits it’s intended target.

Here is where bullet weight, velocity out the barrel and caliber come into play. One shot of a 168 gram 7.62X51 round out of a 26″ inch long barrel gives you much better terminal performance than a 5.56 at 62 grams out of a 14.5 inch barrel.

OK STOP!
STRIKE 1: The AK is not based on the STG44. It’s one of those rumors that seem to fly around military circles like “you can’t shoot personnel with an M2 because it’s an anti-personnel weapon. While Kalishnakov clearly borrows from the STG concept, it also cleverly borrows from the Garand’s M1 (using a locking bolt), John Browning’s trigger group design. It should also be noted that the AK uses a ROTATING BOLT, not a tilting bolt; and fires a much different cartridge. (7.62 x 39mm vs. 7.92 x 32mm….but that’s probably because the Soviets have been addicted to 7.62 since the Mossin Nagant. So while you can say he wouldn’t have invented it without the STG, you can’t say he just copied it……

NOW YOU KNOW, AND KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE……

STRIKE 2: Show me an UNRELIABLE AK-47 and I’ll be impressed. The AK is one of the only designs I’ve ever worked with that takes SERIOUS work and effort to get it to jam. The secret (or not so secret) of the AK’s reliability is why Kalashnikov Designed it.
a) it has a piston rod. This lowers fouling in the bolt group / trigger mechanism
b) it was designed with a large, loose tolerance upper receiver so that debris / sand / water is just pushed out of the way during cycling to prevent jamming
c) the force of the large combat round (in this case 7.62mm) results in a healthy kick which works in tandem with A and B.

3) STIKE 3: The M16 sucks off the production line, and it sucks in the field. SURE you can get it to work if you baby it, put a road guard vest on it, and tell it you love it all day, BUT SHOULD YOU HAVE TO?!?! The M16 has three serious flaws:
1) The Twist. The original design Stoner fielded was a 1/16” twist; which meant the round transferred its force into the enemy instantaneously. (and lethally) Years later the Army increased the twist to increase the M16’s range. So now the round is TOO gyroscopically stable. (and doesn’t transfer force)
2) The direct gas (direct impingement) design degrades the weapons reliability with each round expended. Under moderate conditions this isn’t usually a problem, unfortunately in war dust, debris, wear and abuse exacerbate all these until you CAN catastrophic failure quickly even when you clean it constantly.
3) The 5.56mm cartridge is just not powerful enough. (see also reason 1….these all work together) I’m more of a fan of the 6.8mm SPC Remington cartridge developed for SOF. You get more rounds than 7.62mm, and you don’t have to shoot the enemy 5 times to put him down.

I just hope the Army accelerates a program to get an M4 replacement. Instead of FLEETING the force, just get enough new weapons for the field. Many of the variants from the 416 (H&K) to the A6 (LWRC) are all fine substitutes. Barrett Arms even had an M4 variant with a fantastically simple piston rod system that can easily be disassembled without tools.

As far as other rifles I’ve fired the SCAR and the TAVOR, both or which are fine rifles. I didn’t much care for the SCAR, though it was much better than the M4. (To be fair to FN, it may have been the prototype or a loose blot when they switched it to heavy) The TAVOR however was fantastic….

The only thing that troubles me is that all of the manufacturers have been porking up the prices on these variants, to add $5.00 worth of parts these companies are charging a $1000 premium. This isn’t rocket science…..this is 1900’s tech. Rifles of all sorts have had a short stoke/long stoke piston for some time. Even Stoner had a 1970’s prototype of a M16 short stroke. The AR-180 or M-18. (Never went anywhere, but he did it.)

Ok, dead horse beaten.

dude you need to update your Internet commando lingo. read fackler you have no idea about terminal ballistics do you?

I freely admit that I am NOT a small arms expert, but if an AK is not based on the StG44 then they must both be based on the same weapon. Can you name one? I can’t. Even a cursory glance at the two shows enormous similarities. No version if the AK looks anything like the M1 Garand or it’s cousin the M-14. And every weapson borrows from various other weapons. And I did not say “copied” but based on.

Charles Phillips
LtCol, USAF Retired

Another question — you and WarScientist refer to “the” AK. Do you mean the original Russian AK-47 that fired the 7.62 (or was it a 7.65 or so?)? The newer AK-74? Various copies from many countries?? The AK-74 has been shipping for years and it fires a 5.45 mm round. Not the NATO standard 7.62 mm. I have only fired an SKS, made in Hungary or somewhere, and it fired a short 5.56 mm round. The loose tolerances do allow dirt to get out — but also allow dirt to get in. Sort of balances out. When you get an M-4 you know what ya got, but you better look closely at any Kalashnikov you get.

Here I agree, the M-16/M-4 can be cleaned TOO vigorously and you gotta make sure that it does not have too generous a coat of oil or the smaller barrels can foul. And the gas design is not as good as the piston — the small tubes can get blocked too easily. But most people do not aim each shot — they squeeze off a burst to keep the bad guy’s head down while they call in air support. The real shooters are issued the newer version of the M-14, which still has the 7.62 mm bullet that can take your head off at a respectable range. And then some special folks have the 50 cal bullet that can tear you in half from a long way off.

The burst fire device on the M4 is a terrible design. If you don’t get exactly 3 off, then the next pull will just complete the string — you could wind up with 1 or 2 rounds, rather than the expected 3. Given a choice, I would chose a full auto version any day. Simple is better.

The shortcomings of the ARs gas impingement system are well known — heat transfer to the receiver and bolt carrier group, unburned powder and carbon fouling. It’s doubtful that carbon fouling was the culprit in the mentioned engagements, however. Overlubrication could be one cause of stoppages, especially in a dusty environment. Magazine failures are another common problem. Bad extractors / extractor springs or bad buffer springs might be the culprits, especially if all of the rifles came from the same run (or were worked on at the same time in the depot). Improperly hardened or out-of-spec parts could also be at fault. And of course, bad ammo is a possibility too. It will be interesting to see what analysis of the failed M-4s discloses. The Canadians don’t seem to have as much trouble with their Diemaco C8s, so it could be a quality control issue.

The shortcomings of the various gas piston systems floating around are not yet established, because AR-based gas piston guns don’t have an established track record in combat. The Germans are carrying G36s, not HK 416s. I haven’t heard reports on the issues, if any, they’ve had with their guns, but the number of sustained firefights they’ve been involved in is small. Assuming that a closed system is better is iffy, since there are more moving parts involved.

The M249 SAW (ex-Minimi) isn’t known as a reliable system, and it’s a gas piston gun. The M240 (MAG 58) is reliable, but considering that it’s a GPMG, it better be. Same manufacturer, different design and function, different outcomes. The Navy’s MK 48 (the stripped down version of the M240 built for the Teams) is being deployed with SOCOM operators, so at least some folks are getting totable 7.62s in theater.

The Kalashnikov family of weapons is famously reliable, albeit noisy, non-ergonomic, and of questionable accuracy. Those loose tolerances do have pros and cons, after all. Accuracy at longer ranges is dubious. So it’s a trade-off. It’s worth noting that IDF seems to prefer the M-16 to the Galil, which is a quality AK/Valmet variant.

For its intended purpose, assault in close quarters, the AK works well. For the long-range engagements in Afghanistan, however, a better long-range round is in order. The M-14s that are being dragged out of storage are just a stopgap measure, although a necessary one given the engagement ranges and need for penetration in the walled compounds typical of Iraq and Afghanistan. Arming each infantryman or Marine with an M-14, even the stripped down versions, would mean a smaller ammo load (or more weight) because of the weight differential in the ammunition. It’s no wonder that troops prefer the M-4 when humping over mountains and valleys all day and night. The 6.8 is a nice idea, but the military seems only marginally interested in it.

Caseless ammo? Remember the G11? Went nowhere. The bottom line is that there is no “one” rifle or carbine that is going to “do it all.” Witness the problems with Delta’s Colt Commandos, which had a barrel length perfect for assaulting a bus or plane — and terrible for engaging enemy at moderate distances.

I haven’t seen an AR-18 or AR-180 in years. Armalite never did manage to sell a significant number of them to governments or even many police agencies, so reliability was never fully established by a large base of users.

Given procurement and testing timelines, the only feasible option is the SCAR. SCAR is modular with various barrel lengths.

Since Combat Arms do 80+% of the shooting, go with a high-low mix. SCAR 7.62 for CA & MP, then M4 for CS/CSS. An M4 with Mk 262 does pretty well. At least until production catches up.

Of course, the procurement & log folks will violently object. They want to go with the 25mm as the Next Gen weapon and they’re probably right. Remember their timeframe is beyond the POM; real-time acquisition is foreign to them. Look at how violently they fight using the Mk 262 ammo.

And so it goes.

I don’t know what your cedentials are, but from what I’ve read I’d say you’re a confused at best. Most of the time reconnecence is performed outside the “air cover” envelope. All the more reason to have dependable weapons.
–Goat

S-4 Coastal here in Alaska.

We sure appreciate hearing this M4 report and we keep our weapons systems maintained with the highest standards and they are inspected by all our SSG’s and or the SFC’s. They look for wear and tear on firing pins, and bolt assembly wear. So, what we always try to do is clean gas tubes everytime we clean our weapons. Each one of our soldiers are well versed in their rifles and pistols and shotguns. We conduct a PMI class before range qualifications and our soldiers always are allowed onto the range after their weapon has been inspected and passes the test.

S-4 Coastal Alaska,

One of my best friends was in a EOD unit in Iraq and after shooting M4 for three months he asked his wife to use his PFD Funds and go buy him a AR-10 rifle which is a .308 caliber and send up thru their command. My buddy told me when he was shooting the M4 at walls near rooms that they were to clear in buildings it took the M4 three times the ammo to shoot and bust the brick all the way threw. The switch to AR-10 needs a solid look because it took less amounts of rounds to shoot threw brick before they stepped into a room to cut the pie.

The M16 family is accurate and reliable on a weapons range, but the reliability goes away when your in the field. First issue is the gas system sucks, it is prone to fouling and you cannot clean it period. The fouling comes from the unburnt powder residue and even worse is the brass shavings from the projectile being shaved during instalation into the case mouth. For any of our guys in the zone reading this, take a look at all your Lake City ammo when you unbox it and clean the shavings away from the mouth area, this will save you some grief later. Another issue is the rifling is too fast, for the standard issue round, need to remove the armour penetrator from the round and it should be increased to the 74 to 77 grain weight area. The gas systems can be converted to piston type during rebuild for about $400.00 total to make it a 416 variant. They should all be semi and full for last ditch scenarios. Another issue is our younger guys are too reliant on thier optics and gadgets rather than combat shooting. This is an issue with the higher brass and civilian GS14 and 15’s in acquisitions pushing for all these new toys for them to manage. Old school training needs to come back. The MK46 and 48 LMG’s are nice and dependable as he** plus 7.62mm, but despite what another commented, longer barrels are out of the question ( adds more weight — harder to aim — unbalanced when shoulder firing ). The military is not going to change calibers, and definately will not be any 6mm, it will be too expensive to retoll the factories. so rather than its make the 5.56 better/ go 7.62 on everything/ or go 7mm 08 which will still use the 7.62mm case necked down to take the 7mm projectile. The latter would be preferred because it is flatter shooting and has more punch than the 7.62mm past 100 yards and twice as much after 300 yards with half the recoil. But we would also have to put up the cash for the rest of NATO to convert also so caliber change is out of the question. Quite a few guys in country are purchasing the bushmaster or LWRC M4 uppers with gas pistons and installing them on thier own dime, most of the cadre cant tell the diff and really dont care as long as they dont loose thier government issue. Yes there are beter weapons out there but why pay 2400.00 for a new one when you can make our just as good for 600.00 and spend the rest where it needs to go,

Some 88 years ago development was started on a semi-auto combat rifle for U.S. troops. That R&D project led to the initial introduction of the rifle M-1 in .276 caliber. But a certain high ranking (read that God-like general) rebuked the use of .276 because of gathering war clouds and the vast amount of .30 M2 ammo in warehouses. This led to a scramble to redesign the rifle to handle the heavy weight .30 round and delayed it’s introduction to the troops by years and reduced it’s magazine capacity by two rounds from 10 to 8. Whereas, if production had been allowed to continue as originally designed the rifle and ammo would most likely have been ready for issue in the late 30’s instead of playing catch up until 1943. Remember, the Marines at Guadalcanal and the Army in North Africa both hit the beaches mainly with bolt action Springfields holding five rounds. So what’s the point? It’s that there is a lot of ego involved with the selection of new and better rifles not to mention big $$. Why do you think the the SOG boys shop somewhere else? “Cause they get what they want and NEED. It’s always been that way. In all former wars men took their own weapons with them to make sure they had one when they needed it, that they were familiar with, and was absolutely reliable! Argue what you will about the AK and it’s lack of this or that. In the end if you can hit a bad guy at 100 yards it’s better than a rock!! They are everywhere, they are cheap to make and maintain and go BANG! when you need it! They ARE capable of better accuracy than is normally attributed to them. American production methods and a little tweaking, better ammo standards would produce a more accurate rifle for those folks who want to complain about MOA. Murphy says: “If it’s stupid, and it works, it’s not stupid”.

Here at the US Training Center, M-4s fail regularly at 500 rounds per day firing rate (semi-auto). The lugs on the bold assembly break off and have to be replaced. Cleaning and maintenance do not prevent this weak link from failing. There are after-market bolt assemblies that have fixed this to some extent.

Commando lingo? Please enlighten us with your wisdom. Don’t know what terminal ballistics has to do with a comment on the correction of the M16/M4 MECHANICAL flaws and more advanced weapon design. As far as name dropping goes, yes I know all about Col. Martin Fackler, I really enjoyed his articles in Wound Ballistics Review. However I’m not arguing bullet, I’m arguing rifle.

If you want to talk terminal ballistics, then 5.56 is garbage. NO ARGUMENT HERE​.To put it simplify the bullet goes TOO fast (cartridge/powder), it’s TOO stable (high rate of twist), and TOO light. (weight) The high speed (from the “improved cartridge”) means the bullet is over powered, and when combined with the high rate of twist means bullet never gets to “dump” its kinetic energy into the target as designed. So now instead of “tumbling” or transferring its kinetic energy it now has a “pass-through” problem in targets <50m. The low mass means that the bullet in not “barrier blind”, so it breaks/deflects when it hist ANYTHING.

Since I mentioned th 6.8mm SPC, it solves this though adding just the right amount of MASS to the F=M*A^2 equation to solve the barrier blind and kinetic problem, while giving you a lighter load than the 7.62mm. (it also has nice aerodynamic properties)

I’m referring to the AK-47. The AK-74 is as crappy as the M16. In fact the Russians actually designed it after seeing some of the early sucesses of the M16. (more rounds, lighter for jungle fighting) As I stated the light 5.56 round has numerous issues.

Well said boomer, well said. Hadn’t heard about the brass shavings. Good tip!

Don’t disagree, although the RFI does allow for a rapid fielding of a new varient. Don’t believe the “it takes 100 years to get a new rifle…” nonsense. They field what they want to. The real problem is the ROT at Picatinny; and the NOT INVENTED HERE attitude. I asked a Colonel from Small Arms and a tester from Picatinny at a Convention when they were going to have ZERO G moon testing for the SCAR? They looked at me and said “I don’t understand your question, why would we do that?“
I replied “because you’ve run out of other nonsense test that doesn’t matter, figured this was all that was left. After all you’re essentially avoiding asking the questions that matter.” (awkward pause, silence) “Well son what do YOU think matters, what’s your point.?” I replied “The only thing that matters finding out if the SCAR is measureably more reliabe, and at least as accurate as the M4. Given that we already know that then why isn’t approved already?“
(no response from the speakers.…..awkward silence.…..“NEXT QUESTION.”

There is one other recommendation that as far as calibers go, we should consider and that is the 6.5 Grendel, which can fit in the M-16 upper. It essentially is the same size as the 7.62X39 in length so feed ramp problems should be minimal, but ballistics are amazing due to the coefficient of friction levels of the projectile. FBI studies have demonstrated it’s effectiveness in all ballistic tests and performance at 500 meters is still amazing with penetration and velocity levels that kick butt. It will produce over 500 ft lbs of energy at 1000 yards with projectiles in the range of 126 –130 grams with a suitable barrrel length. The 6.8SPC drops of at 300 meters, but is kick butt until then.

The most important part is that we improve the collective thought process of our opinion leaders and uncover the needed assets that our men and women need to kill the enemy. As far as my personal preference, I would not go anywhere in combat without a .45 ACP Springfield, Bushmaster AR-15 pistol, AR-10 SASS or T and a .300 Ultramag Sendero II to complete the package. Right before a REDACTED in the REDACTED my Ruger .454 Casull was included as FPF so I could line up 2 or 3 of them and use 1 round at a time.

Christian,

I think one of the points you highlighted bears reinforcement and comment: “the report that quotes one of the Soldiers saying he was unprepared for such an Alamo style fight. You’d have thought since Blackhawk Down we’d be teaching how to hold off wave attacks with superior fire.”

If we have been looking at swarming as a tactic that enemies have used on us in Somalia and not just as an aberration, but a future tactic, why have our troops not trained to counter such a move AND to do so without always resorting to airstrikes?

The issue of swarming isn’t new either since think tanks like Rand have devoted entire monographs and studies to the topic, yet our troops seem inadequately prepared to address this. What will happen if we fight against a N. Korean swarm or a Chinese one? The tactics are enemies are employing are ones we would also see in a big conventional war so it’s high time we start addressing this now.

If you keep your weapon clean it will not jam.or you are going to need a new weapon everytime.A clean weapon shot longer than a dirty weapon.

The AK-47 was design to shot when it is dirty

They fell to learn from the battle of the little big horn​.Do not shot until you see the whites of their eyes.

Our military in afghanistan need to learn how to shot the AK-47.

My experience with the M-16 is when I was in the Marines and was deployed to Lebanon. Our conditions were pretty dirty, although probably nowhere near what you guys in Iraq and Afganistan deal with. I was issued the M-16A1 and I can tell you all that it was a total POS! The only good thing about it is that you could put a bayonet on it! All of us had trouble with our rifles jamming, and we were VERY diligent in trying to keep them clean. But this is not surprising since when you fire the M-16, you are pumping FOD back down the barrel. Some of the old timers in our unit somehow were able to get ahold of an M-14, which our First Sgt and Gunnery Sgt (who were Vietnam Vets) had. Of course they did not have any problems with there weapons.
That’s mainly why I get disgusted with the M-16 lovers that probably never had to rely on their weapon to keep them alive. I have talked to many guys that have come back from Iraq and Afganistan and they all tell me that they had similar problems with their M-4s. I figure that the reason these “weapons” are still in service is because of politics period. They will never admit that they messed up bigtime when they officialy made the M-16 our main rifle. Personally I own a M-1A (Civilian M-14) and a .308 Galil. I have fired a $h!t-load of rounds through them and have never had a failure of any kind. I have even had my Galil in the mud and it still fired. If I had to go back to combat, I would take either of those two with me and I would tell them where they can put the M-4.

How is it that we allow an X-KGB officer to design a weapon for our fighting force?

77705256
Ra Ta Ta Ta Tat; Some really great comments and statistically proven pros n’ cons of the M16/M4, etc. Improve accuracy on the AK’s and you have a tight tolerance somewhat match grade weapon which at full auto fire will ultimately fail in 100’s of rounds not 1000’s. The AK was adapted to the 7.62x39 round which was in service and designed to wound a 170 pound person at 100 meters, with an acceptable MOA of 20cm at 300 meters. Plus it had to be easy to manufacture with current materials and be very affodable; enter the AK47! WOW what a wonderful beastly thing, not very pretty but in CQB or on the battle field very practical. USA vs Russian phylosophy. US says more expensive is no problem and OH BTW make them there guns pretty & capable of shooting the eyes out of a squirrel @1000 yards. Now we get expensive to say the least. No more needs to be said except “Give our men and women in the service of our country what they need when they need it period!” Pray that Gen. McChrystal gets what he is requesting plus some if not most of the pluses that VP Biden is recommending i.e.. Drones with more seek and destroy capabilities and lots of SFOG’s etc..

Chief, as always good stuff. Hadn’t heard much about the 6.5, but it wouldn’t suprise me to hear it works. At the end of the day all the research shows that anything less than 6mm is too damm small in mass, and just about anything over 7 tends to start effecting combat load. (btw, love the REDACTED…lol)

BooDog — Amen Brother.

That’s the problem with the curent Army philosophy on EVERYTHING. Make it do everything, so that in the end is sucks at anything. We need to consider diffferent varients for different missions.

OK guys, here is the scoop, After 24 years in the military and being too busted up to stay in any longer I went to work for the Government dealing with ammo — explosives — and small arms. I agree that 6.5 and 6.8 is better than 5.56, but it is not going to happen due to cost and NATO compliance requirements. What we can do and myself along with countless other are fighting is to improve the 5.56mm. currently it has two drawbacks in design, too light for the rifle twist and a steel penetrator tip in the nose. That is why SPECOPS guys use the heck out of the old 55 grain FMJ 5.56mm lead core but it eats up the rifling, or use the 74 and 78 grain match grade 5.56 ammo with a open tip (because hollow points are illegal, thats why we also use riot guns and not shot guns because they are illegal also in combat. We have been arguing that if we go back to lead core only and use the longer 5.56 tracer jackets that we already manufacture then we can achieve a heavy load at no additional cost, but we cant convince the higher ups yet that we are not likely to need a 5.56mm capable of penetrating Russian body armour at 600 yards yet (although I did prove to them that this is mute considering thier high dollar Aimpoint and AGOG optics are no good at that range). The other factor is the rifle itself, that gas tube is a piece of junk,fouls out in no time just from firing it, and the cycling of the bolt in prone or rested position on an adobe wall picks up grit wich eventualy winds up in the chamber then barrel then gas tube, Also the rifling should be button twist so as not to remove so much material off the projectile jacket as it goes down the barrel, this is why you wander if your sights are drifting on you when doing a lot of shooting, as the rifling becomes fouled it becomes useless and you pretty much wind up with a smooth bore rifle. Ive seen this happen as little as 500 rds through a rifle barrel, you add the loose shaving from the factory loading process and you have a problem. As far as loading the ammo the specs are too wide, shoulder deminsions — powder weight — and other production issues need to be tightened up along with the accuracy qualification requirements, you would toss your lunch if you knew what the actual acceptance requirement are but its hard to argue this with 20 year old engineers that are anti gun nuts (and there are a lot of them working for the Gov.). Good news is they are starting to revert back some, The 9mm are being slowly replaced by 45ACP’s because the officers carrying the 9’s are concerned after witnessing the lack of thier knock down power for thier own safety (guess they never believed all of us enlisted guys when we tried to warn them of this fact in the 80’s, but back then they usualy stayed in the rear with the gear expecting the enemy to never get close enough to need a pistol). A lot of AR10 variants and M14s are being purchased which is why you see more and more manufacturing of these weapons, so reverting back to 7.62 is not out of the question. That is also why you are seeing other short action heavy calibers coming about as well. On another note our guys are trained on the AK rifles, big problem with them though is that there are so many variants in calibers for them you cant depend on picking up one and then finding the ammo you need on another body. But if push came to shove I would take an AK over an M4 any day of the week. The best Ak variant and one That could easily be produced here for about 500.00 a weapon with good quality is The Isreali Galil, the Isrealis took the best features of the AK47 and the FNFAL and combined them into one rifle that was very acurate and you couldt make stop from shooting no matter what you threw at it. They were made in 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 7.62X39mm. If it were up to me thats where we would be going. Problem here is that it is an Isreali design, I had an infantry officer going ballistic on some of my guys for carrying them in a Muslim country and that we were going to cause an international incident, I calmly told him not to worry because we didnt leave any witnesses around to complain, he decided to drop it at that point. A lot of you have really good sugestions and points, send them to your state reps and Senate Arms commitie personnel, if enough of you join in the argument it will make a bigger impact than me and a couple others trying to fight the battle by ourselves to get these point across.

no one talking about ‘dirty’ ammo. is the stuff your feeding in and out good quality?

last thing, not hearing anything about the 5,45 russian AK 74. any news on that or are the enemy only using the 47?

John, as I pointed out above there are a number of issues with our ammunition which only adds to the existing down falls of the M16 family. All the ammunition used by the military are either mfg by the US Army Lake City Ammunition Plant in Independence MO and has been since WW2 or by other MFG contracted by the Govt. such as winchester, remington, and federal. The best ammo we get comes from Black Hills ammo which is where a lot of the SPECOPS ammo comes from. Govt ammo specs are too loose, you can have multiple powder weights for one within the same lot of ammunition, while you would expect some slight variance when pushing out 2000 rds a minute per machine you would not expect it to go from the min to the max, a couple of grains OK, 10 grains not so good unless you like adjusting your sights constantly. Also the specs for case length — head thickness — shoulder height — bullet weight have a min and max and you will find all of it within one specific ammo lot. granted the big corps are like I said spitting them out like crazy and making lots of over 500,000 rds each to a couple of million. but still they could step up thier quality better if they would measure before assembly, and cut off the lots when they have to make powder weight changes due to humidity and such, the accuracy would be a lot better, Militray ammo is dirtier than civilian ammo to start with, because the cases are anneal hardened the cannot be tumble cleaned and polished like civilian ammo, the tumbling process would cause the cases to over harden and crack or rupture and that is why they tell you not to tumble military brass if reloading it and why most reloaders stay away from it. They do control some of the ammo better such as the sniper ammo but the majority is so-so, for those of you that think you are buying surplus government ammo at gun shows and stores you really are not, what you are buying is what the government rejected due to missfires — ruptures — and test failures, basicly junk so you cannot judge what the military gets based on what you buy at gun shows, the govt destroys old ammo and does not sell it. The easiest way to tell is that the contractors are required to remove the govt lot numbers from all the boxes and cans, if it does not say lot# such and such it is junk. so watch out -

thanks, i didn’t realize how variable the ammo was. saw some very dirty firing from an M4 in Iraq and i was very surprised. guess when they use suppressors with that mess they will be paying close attention to cleaning. LOL

Boomer — I remember when we had to give up our .45’s for the POS Baretta 9mm. This really gauled me because being a Marine, we knew why the .45 was invented in the first place, so why would we go back to basically the same round that was replaced (a .38 is not much different than a 9mm, balistic wise)? I am glad to see that finally some common sense is coming back, i.e. replace the 9mm with the .45 and replace the .223 with the .308, although I would settle with the .270. Ok, I know someone will complain, I mean the 5.56mm with the 7.62X54mm or the 6.5mm.
I own a Galil AR-.308(7.69X54) and I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world. I bought it for $700 on layaway, now it’s worth a helluvalot more. Just to let you know, my Senator –Tom Coburn is trying to force the issue and make the Military take a hard look at all of the possible replacements. He is well aware of the M-16/M-4 POS and is trying to do something about it.

6.8mm, with a gas/piston system is wats needed. didn’t Magpul team w/ Bushmaster? Why so much BS? Those 5.56 rounds don’t have the power to penetrate. why does COLT have a monopoly? The M-4 is sub-par, and when those SF guys on Okinawa brought 416 uppers, well that said it all.

There are several FailZero bolt carrier groups (http://​www​.failzero​.com) being used in Afghanistan and they are rapidly becoming the first choice of the troops for the increased reliability in harsh environments. The feedback both here and abroad has been very positive in side by side testing using suppressors, frangible ammo, cold environments and sand/dust environments. While it does not solve the overheating issue, the EXO coating allows the operators to run extended periods without lubricating their weapon (>10K rounds, going on 20K). This reduces the amount of sand/dust that adheres to the legacy BCGs. LWRC uses EXO coating on their firearms and were the only platform to ever pass the dust test at Quantico. This led to their certification for DEA use.

Three EXO coated M249s are about to undergo testing at Aberdeen Test Center. One M249 has already been fired >23K rounds without lubrication.

Tim, I shared your pain during the 80’s on the 45 issue as did many. The Marine expeditionary forces held onto their 45’s and upgraded them thus the Epiditionary 45 model. They are now purchaseing Kimber Warriors ( the original contract 45’s were 35.00 each, now they are paying 12,00.00 each to bring them back.) High Standard out of Houston is also building 45’s for the Government, Thier FBI model with the Cylinder and Slide “safe fast firing system” is the cats meow, I have installed this SFFS system on all my 1911’s I carry concealed. Glad to meet another lover of the Galail, if more knew of them they would know why I claim them to be the best ever, I would not give up mine either, for any of you that own 5.56 galail’s IMI now makes an adapter that allows you to use M16 magazines vice the Galail type. A lot of the Magpul’s new rifle comes from the galail as far as interchangeability and the gas system, just too much plastic for my liking in the magpul rifle, same reason I like the H&K G3 more than the G36.
Tim, you are welcome for the info on the ammo. If you ever want to see just how much variability there is in the ammo just do some measurements on it (do them 360 degrees because one side will be dif from the other) them mount your rifle in a fixed vise (100 yards will do) you would think that you would get a tight group but what you will see at 100 yards is a pretty big spread, especialy if you use different ammo mfg. dates. If you want really good accuracy try to find the blackhills ammo, they take thier time putting this stuff together and thats why the SPECOPS guys buy the heck outta it.

Some very good points there.

I agree with boomer that there is still a lot of room for improvement when it comes to the ammo. The thing is, the 5.56 was designed to be used with a 20″ barrel or more back in the day. Nowadays most barrel lengths are somewhere between 10″ and 14″, meaning you have a significant loss of muzzle velocity to the point where the 5.56 can end up doing very little damage to your target on a succesfull hit. Especially at ranges within 50 feet the damaging capability of the 5.56mm is so yaw-dependant that sometimes the bullet wont tumble within the body untill 10″ deep, other times it will start to tumble after 4″ deep. This kind of inconsistancy is a major problem.

With a little effort, the 7.62 can be modified to improve ballistic performance, terminal performance, and with the new polymer case technologies a weight saving of up to 30% is possible, all the while improving the long range capabilities (good for AfPak) and improving lethality (good for CQB, room clearing, jungle warfare etc etc etc).

As far as a weapon system is concerned there are only a few realistic options. Due to political constraints israeli, asian and russian weapons are a no-go. Meaning the next assault rifle has to come from within NATO (and will probably have to conform to the new NATO assault rifle STANAG that is being drafted).

Due to logistics, training and compatibility issues a bullpup rifle will probably also be out of the question (even though bullpups are far superior in terms of accuracy at range whilst at the same time being much better for CQB. They also have 1-handed firing capability like the steyr Aug which is balanced in such a fashion that you can hold and shoot it with one hand quite comfortably)

That leaves us with 4 options:

1) FN SCAR L/H
2) HK 416/417
3) Bushmaster ACR 5.56/7.62
4) M4 modfied with op-rod gas system (and possible calibre upgrade to 3.08 or 7.62)

My personal preference would like with the SCAR or the bushmaster, and they have slightly more features than the HK models (even though they are very good) including adjustable folding stock (very handy when operating from vehicles) and simpler barrel changes.

Warscientist, you mentioned some good choices here but missed one that I prefer over all of them which is the SIG 556, I just prefer a metal gun over all the composite ones. It is definately going to be a NATO weapon, I would have even liked to have seen the FNC picked up years ago as well. 5.56 is not going anywhere for a while unfourtuneately so I would hope for the SIG rifle personaly, I just didnt like the others ( except for the 416 ). If it where totaly up to me then I would go strickly with the H&K417 in 7.62mm. Like others I have my caliber preferences, I use them on my personal weapons because the Govt wont change. I carry a 1911 but in 38super because it pennetrates what other calibers cant and still has a lot of knock down which is comforting when you have to travel through parts of town where you know the gangs are wearing body armor (38 super will clear most soft body armor which is why it is never listed as calibers protected against on the vest lables). I also have one of the knew Remington R25 rifles in 7mm08, I updated it with a gas system and accesories, half the kick of a 7.62mm, twice the knock down of a 7.62mm, less wear on my weapon parts, at 500+ yards I’m closing in on my 300 mag rifles balistics and trajectory (with less scope compensation for elevation as is neede for 7.62mm)would these be better combat rounds as well — most definately — but it wont happen. The gas system is coming as an upgrade for the M4’s (upper assembly change out only means a cheaper conversion) the ammo needs considerable improvement. But the way things are going these days the Govt may require our guys to provide their own weapons to due away with the liability of providing our guys with POS gear.But for someone like me that would be a welomed change if I were still active duty.

First of all, as a civilain, I have been hearing that the Daimaco C8 now the Colt Canada C8 has had the same problems as your M4/16s, they are great weapons, don’t get me wrong, but if I was an infantry soldier (which I aspiare to be) relying on my weapon to fire every time I pulled the trigger I would want something that could take everything I could throw at it and then some. FN SCAR, HK M416, M8, these are great platforms, lets try using these instead of the M4/16s from Colt. I really liked the M8, its great, its modular, but the only reason they didn’t go ahead with it from what I have read was because of the magazine not conforming to STAGNAG whatever the heck that number was, well, they could have just said, hey, make this rifle take STAGNAG magazines, and more the likely they would have gotten it done, Jeez, I wonder if Colt is like bribing the government to buy their weapons and their weapons only like what happened with dragonskin, anyone remember that? hell, that barret M468 looks like its a great weapon.

You guys shuold go to the C8 instead of the M4, more reliability

better HK? OK!!!

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