Army Touts Flexible FCS Son

Army Touts Flexible FCS Son

The Army’s new combat vehicle: modular design that is readily upgradable and can be reconfigured for different combat modes; survivable on IED strewn battlefields; lethal enough for a high-intensity conventional fight, yet permits soldiers to operate with precision in wars amongst the people; affordable and durable enough to stay in service for decades. That’s what the Army told more than 650 industry representatives last week. And the service wants it all quickly, too, said Col. Bryan McVeigh, project manager of the service’s Manned Systems Integration.

Army officials provided an overview of the requirements for its new Ground Combat Vehicle, the follow on to the FCS ground vehicle, to representatives from more than 60 corporations on October 16. Specific technical requirements and classified specifications will be provided on the second industry day, scheduled for November 24–25, McVeigh said. Last week’s industry day was intended to make sure all participants were “on the same base line” as far as what is technologically possible and deliverable within five to seven years.

To get everybody on the same page, Army acquisition officials provided industry previously proprietary information, its “body of knowledge,” from the FCS ground vehicle preliminary design review, completed just weeks before the program’s cancellation this summer.

The Army wants a “holistic” approach to designing a combat vehicle to meet the exceedingly complex demands of future battlefields, McVeigh said Monday on a conference call with reporters. “It must have an open architecture so we can integrate upgrades to this platform similar to what the Abram [main battle tank] has been able to do throughout its lifecycle.” First fielded in the early 1980s, the Abrams came equipped with a 105mm main gun, even though designers knew they would later outfit it with a larger 120mm cannon. The vehicle’s initial armor package was also designed to be upgradable as new, more advanced composite armors, such as Chobham armor, were developed.

Flexibility and growth potential are new operational requirements in vehicle design, said Rickey Smith, from the Army’s Training and Doctrine Command. Every vehicle the Army has sent to Iraq and Afghanistan has been “field modified,” often multiple times; the Humvee being the prime example of a vehicle that went through multiple iterations as it was adapted to the Iraq battlefield. That process began early in the war as soldiers welded extra steel plates to their vehicles to protect against IEDs. Now, special “urban survivability” kits, custom made for close quarters street fighting, are standard issue for tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles.

“Build towards the future, Smith said, “we should be thinking about a vehicle that can be modified right up front.” The Army is also examining lessons from the rapid fielding of Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles, which have a proven blast resistant hull design borrowed from the South African military, and what might be done differently this time around as the service builds, for the “first time,” a vehicle designed from the ground up to be survivable in the “IED environment.”

Smith said the initial document the service provided industry is “very short,” some 25 pages, compared to the FCS requirements. “We’re trying not to over-specify and limit industry.” Lessons learned from Iraq and Afghanistan will factor mightily into the Army’s specific requirements for the GCV, he said, along with the projected anti-armor threats that might be fielded in the 2017–2025 time frame. Interestingly, one of the key lessons is that soldiers in today’s wars wear much more body armor and other kit than was the case in past decades so crew hatches must be built larger to allow rapid entry and exits.

Smith said the Army intends to brief Congress and Hill staffers on the GCV requirements some time in the next two to three weeks.

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“Build a new combat vehicle with a modular design that is readily upgradable as technology advances, can be reconfigured for different combat modes, is survivable on IED strewn battlefields, is lethal enough for a high-intensity conventional fight yet permits soldiers to operate with precision in wars amongst the people, is affordable and can remain in service for many decades, perhaps until the end of the century, the Army told more than 650 industry representatives last week. The Army wants its new vehicle quickly, too”

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!@!!!@!

and in unrelated new, monkeys appear to have learned how to fly.

Good Evening Folks,

What about DEAD does the Army and the defense industry not understand.

The notion that a jack of all trades vehicle can be made and also be upgradeable with new technology as it comes on line is just plain silly. We don’t know what that new technology is going to be so how in the he** can a vehicle be manufactured that will accept it. As far as offering protection to IED’s, EFP’s and RPG’s it’s not going to happen ALL of these weapons are also in evolutionary development and will quickly counter anything that industry can come up with, in about 6 weeks.

All this is pure greed and the opinion of industry that Sec. Gates took $90 billion out of their pockets and they want it back. This what is being proposed is little more the alchemy.

If industry thinks this is such a good idea why don’t they take their own money develop and build working prototypes to prove their theories?

If the military says they in fact need this new armor, tell us under what senario that it would present an advantage over the existing U.S. armored forces which is larger then the combined armor forces of China, Russia and NATO?

I think it’s time for Sec. Gates to tell his Army General to stop playing with the politicians and building their industrial connections and concentrate on winning wars, we are involved in three if they don’t know, or get out and make room for Generals who want to win wars and not secure their retirement.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

The Army still doesn’t know what it wants or it can get. This is a ridicolous requirement for a do-all-vehicle. They are just going to end up just like all the previous programs over the last 20+ years, spend lots of money and nothing to show for it.

The Army should ask the other services who “get it” on what to ask for major weapons program.

Ciro

Skinner, amen brother, amen. (Allons!) I call this the ‘SWISS ARMY CONCEPT” design disease in the DoD. In THEORY if you built one platform that could handle multiple missions then you in fact CAN save on parts, manufacturing, etc. (ala HMMWV in the 1980’s with payload customization) the problem being that although you COULD do x,y,z with a Swiss Army Knife, it’s BAD AT ALL OF THEM!

It’s like saying that a submarine is expensive, and tanks are expensive. If only we combined the two (obviously despite the technical challanges), even with higher development costs we’ll save money in the LONG RUN! BULL! You’ll have a crappy sub, and a crappy tank, and any savings you’d hope to derive would be lost in the excessive O&M/DEV costs which would be ridiculous.…..

“We’re trying not to over-specify and limit industry.”
That’s because the customer (be it the Army or government, you pick) historically changes requirements mid-stream and expects the contractor to make those changes without affecting cost, schedule or capabilities.
Ciro,
The reason there is “nothing to show for it” is exactly because of the statement above. The gov’t cancels programs and when they make their choice for the next program, they are not thinking ahead.

The Army first wanted “Crusader” which began as a 60T vehicle. Then the Army said, “no. we want it to be 40T and still have the same capability”. You all know what happened to Crusader. Then FCS came along and the Army still wanted the same capability but at 20T. Well, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You cannot reduce weight without giving up something, whether it be armor, range, crew size, bells and whistles, whatever…

Requirements need to be spelled out in the beginning and remain hard and fast, Do you want range, armor, IED protection, a vehicle that can run 60mph on a highway and still be manueverable cross country, fight in the open and also be able to move effeciently in an urban environment and be able to fit a pair on a C130, and be designed to defeat threats 15 years into the future? C’mon folks!! would you like it to brew your morning coffee for you too? Give us the requirements, stick to them, and we can design what you need.

We have some of the best engineers in the world in this country. Let us do our jobs and stick to the plan.

And that service would be which?

The Air Force… will the F-35 end up being the F-111 Part Deux?

The Marine Corps… V-22?

The Navy… LCS?

I’m sure someone can name a whole lot more examples than I just did. As pennst98 just called it, “The Swiss Army Concept” design disease.

Its easy, all you have to do is design the ultimate combat vehicle, which is both light, cheap, tough, flexible, can fly, and has a built-in karaoke system that uses voice recognition to track the scores of different crew-members.

TBH i think the voice-recognition karaoke software is going to be the biggest technical hurdle.

I’m sorry if I sound callous, but does the army REALLY expect that someone is going to spontaneously come up with the greatest vehicle ever just because they got rid of all their requirements (because they dont know what they want) and are now on a time-schedule so tight not even an anorexic etheopian could fit in there?

The difference between this and FCS is that they now want these multiple roles built by modular design rather than intrinsic to the vehicle. You make striving to protect against IED’s, EFP’s, and RPG’s sound pointless when the simple fact is having that capability contributed to turning the tide on mounting casualties in Iraq, so it can’t be as worthless as you make it out to be. With IED’s and EFP’s while they can work around defenses it forces those devices to have a larger foot print which makes them easier to find and disarm. RPG’s make the war that much more expensive for insurgencies to fight, gone are the days when all they needed was a $30 AK47… now they have to spend that much more for each shot. Its a war of attrition on a finanicing level.

“If industry thinks this is such a good idea why don’t they take their own money develop and build working prototypes to prove their theories?” I don’t know how many companies have billions in free capital to risk. Companies will be risk averse and none will participate, then where will the army be? They’ll still have $90 Billion, but not the vehicles.

The ability to be upgrade while not easy is pausible, it becomes a matter of knowing what you’re likely to expect. In this case the biggest things would be points for bolt on systems and high enough power generation capability. I think you’re also missing the point that this isn’t as much about enlarging the armored forces of the US but to replace its aging and war battered fleet of vehicles. There comes a time when it becomes more pruedent to replace a system than to upgrade or refurbish it.

The difference here is the army doesn’t want a swiss army knife… it wants just the handle with a variety of blades and tools that fit that handle. The handle just needs to be designed to accept those different configurations, be upgradable so they can design other things to fit the handle, while surviving yet to be specified levels of IED, EFP, and RPG attacks… while guranteeing it can still fight and survive the current level of expected combat in a variety of battlefield conditions.

I think this will provide better results than the FCS or crusader. Rather than dictating every little thing it will be a matter of having industry bring out its best of what it can currently do and picking from the best. Demands by the army for modularity just gurantee that they can add on what they need as an upgrade later on.

Swiss Army Knife, blades and tools that fit a handle, or a ruggesdised Swiss watch… meaningless!

The Initial Capabilities Document (ICD for the Acq geeks) for this has more front-end analysis of a trade-off strategy, but still falls back onto (essentially) the original pre-JCIDS requirements of the FCS ORD — with it’s over emphasis on engineering instead of capabilities. “Gee Wally… What color should the seatbelts be?”

Given that it is only at the ICD stage, nobody should be letting industry see (or influence) details until the hard work of prliminary trade-off analysis is done.

Well, at least the Army has decided to move into this century’s JCIDS process. The Air Force is still appending its 1990’s Joint Strike Fighter ORD — now version 3 with added Key Performance Parameters.

But, I don’t live in a bubble so I know that it will all be backroom deals for contractors, transitioning Army Generals, and congressional districts. The soldier still loses.

Guess I’m the other side of this argument.

I remember working on Allison ( Gas Turbine Division of GM) when they were making the T-56 engine for the first Ospreys. Sitting in an office in Indianapolis, two contractors were arguing about the fact Congress wanted the YF-17 (now the F-18) to do more than fleet defense. Congress demanded that it be a jet bomber as well because it had to take the pressure off the F-14 AND the A-6. They argued that that would make it bad at both.

Well, here we are twenty some years later and the F-18 is somewhat superb as a jet bomber/CAP aircraft. Congress asked for it and the manufacturers delivered. So I don’t think it’s backward thinking to ask a weapons manufacturer to build a modular system, or at least plan for a modular armored system. Big ideas require big engineering and I am confident that they can deliver.

That said, why is everyone so down on the Swiss Army Knife? I have one and it works great. It opens cans, cuts open letters, screws in my eye glasses stems, etc. ( Could it be the reason why Switzerland hasn’t been invaded successful in centuries? )

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

Don’t forget during our stellar days of acquisition reform, the “one page performance spec.” Maybe that’s what we’re trying to do with what’s left of FCS (or as Prince might say, ” the system formerly known as FCS.:

The sub/tank combo would be able to dive really fast.

Here was an article out today on a system being worked on to stop RPGs:
http://​www​.wired​.com/​d​a​n​g​e​r​r​o​o​m​/​2​0​0​9​/​1​0​/​a​i​r​b​a​g​s-v...

The Army always wants the 100% solution, but its most recent acquisition success story was the close to Off-The-Shelf Interim Armored Vehicle which turned into Stryker, an 80% solution. There are several currently fielded/developed combat platforms worldwide that could be the 80% solution in the weight class that GCV is leaning toward (40–50 tons). The Army should have a competition and pick one with the most upside capability growth and run with it.

sounds like the AAAV

Good Morning Folks,

Maybe Greg and the crew at the buzz and the ARMY will get the idea, the manned FCS and any of it’s clones is DEAD.

It is of note that none of the pay to post boys showed on this one. I would like to thank pennst98 for the Swiss Army Knife analogy. That fits what the Army is looking for, something that will do everything but not very well.

The Army like the AF and the Navy has already, come to realize that era of the manned combat weapons/system platform is over. Like the horse, big lumbering armored vehicles are an easy target for any number of weapons that can destroy anything we can build. The future is in cheap network centric platforms/systems that can roam the battle space/field and be handed off form ground commander to another ground commander seamlessly.

The idea that a 20–30 ton vehicle could be constructed that could be immune to the ravages of the battle field is absurd. If you want to go heavier, well you already have it they are called “Bradley” and “Abrams”, sadly both these armored behmouths have already been compromised on the battlefield by rather crude, easy to make, cheap IED’s, EFP’s and PRG rounds, and the terrorists have shown that they can match anything we can put on the road, so why put lives at risk for the missions that these vehicles will be required to do.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Byron Skinner,

Quite the opposite. The Army, like the AF and the Navy, has already come to realize that era of the manned combat weapons/system platform is FAR from over & that unmanned systems while playing an increasingly supportive role WILL NOT replace manned systems anytime soon.

Does it have an autoloader? I really like those.

Good Afternoon pfcem,

You might want to take a look at IAI’s “Rex” a 6x6 unmanned squad supply vehicle that takes basic dong commands and will accompany a rifle squad into the field.

For you who may remember back when the ground forces had a vehicle the M-274 Mule in the 50’s, it was popular with the Marines and the the troopers of the 11th., 82nd. and 101 st. Airborne Divisions. But the Generals hated it and it didn’t survive it’s first tour in Vietnam.

This is the thinking that we need, not more of the same ole,same ole.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

byron do you ever admit when you dont know what you are talking about or just change the subject. the rex carries your ruck for you. theres a difference between a ruck carrier that sits on command and a tank/ifv. i really doubt that “like the air force and navy have realized manned platforms are dead” and you have no evidence of such.

Just as I said. Unmanned systems while playing an increasingly supportive role (like that of a M274 ‘mechanical’ Mule) WILL NOT replace manned systems anytime soon. UAVs aren’t going to replace manned fighters any time soon, USVs aren’t going to replaced manned cruisers, destroyers &/or frigates any time soon & UGVs aren’t going to be replacing MBTs, IFVs, SPHs, et cetera anytime soon.

We spend millions of dollars and years to build the ultimate fighting vehicle and once we field it, in just a few days the enemy comes up with a cheap low-tech way of destroying it. We need to rethink and come up with something different and more effective, both in equipment and strategy.
As far as Afganistan goes, why don’t we just bring all of our troops home and then just nuke the stupid place.

Do you really think the Army will ever get a new vehicle?

First it was the Crusader, then CTD, then NLOS-C, and they were all canceled and many of us lost our jobs.

What happened to when a programs like the abrams were actually followed through until the end? Now everytime we get a new President or Sec of Defense, they cancel the current program and propose a new one that never is allowed to be finished.

everyone in the leadership has there idea what should be done and nobody ever get’s toughter. we need leaders from all over to get toughter and bring this country back on track. listen to the american people.

The one issue no one brings up is the obscene amount of money that has been wasted with zero return and technical job loss association. Ok, so the Army gets it act together and puts out its requirements — bet you dollars to doughnuts it will be the (like Gamagoat said) unpronounceable symbol formerly known as FCS.

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