Comments on: Troops Clamor For Precision Mortars

By: justin

justin — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:22:22 +0000

Hey Greg, great research. I was wondering if you have heard anything on the FCMortar Program. It seems very similar to this one.

The FCMortar is a guidance kit designed as an upgrade to existing 81mm mortar ammunition. It will not only provide accuracy of 5m CEP, but also the capability to engage targets in-between buildings down to the street level. This allows for precision fires in terrain not traditionally accessible to 81mm mortars without the fear of excessive collateral damage. This is facilitated through a design that blends new novel technologies and existing COTS products, as well as, leveraging discoveries in ongoing developmental program.

By: cait

cait — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:02:37 +0000

Thanks Greg

By: Greg Grant

Greg Grant — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:35:32 +0000

cait,

Maj. Hilt told me they were hoping to get it in the field by next summer. Even though things are moving at an accelerated pace for a weapons program, I think a fielding date by the end of 2011 might be more realistic. I am hopeful, though, because McChrystal and his staff are personally involved on this one.

I’ll follow up with PEO Mortars soon to check on its progress.

Greg

By: cait

cait — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:04:22 +0000

Greg … Was Hilt the one who said they would pick a manufacturer :: within ten months :: ? I am trying to get a beat on when this weapon will see action.

“Hilt said, the Army will pick a manufacturer. That should happen within ten months.”

By: Steve Dixon

Steve Dixon — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 08:50:42 +0000

Doug, Doug, Doug — You are being naughty!!!
There’s no such vehicle as a “Gavin” — never was, never will be!!
I suspect there’s brown stuff on your spoon.

By: oldnavyflyer

oldnavyflyer — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 04:55:50 +0000

what the hell happened to close air support with napalm ? there is nothing but rocks and bushes in those mountains . so there shouldn’t be any collateral damage.

By: Geof Schmitz

Geof Schmitz — Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:19:58 +0000

The enemy in Afghanistan moves its mortars, food, water and ammunition… with pack animals. The last mules left the US Army in 1954. I know that in the early eighties they were considered for the Alaskan command. SF has already used local pack animals in Afghanistan. We should at least have the mobility of our enemy. Employing pack animals and the 81 mm would be a reasonably and rapid response to the situation.

By: Geof Schmitz

Geof Schmitz — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 20:36:28 +0000

Geof Schmitz, I was a mortar platoon squad leader 172D LIB, 4/23 C Airborne, Fort Richardson Alaska in the early 1980’s. It is quite possible to move the 81mm in adverse mountain terrain, summer or winter. The question that has never been adequatly answered regardless of mortar calibre is how to maintain ammunition resupply to a dismounted section. A well-trained mortar platoon certainly has adequate capability without guided ammunition to engage this enemy. While I agree hand-held mortar fire has its place, it cannot approach the effectiveness of a mounted gun and trained crew. The 81 mm could be lightened a great deal. With the M29A1 the only piece that is truly diffcult to carry is the baseplate. The bipod is heavier, but easier to carry, the barrel is easier than the 90 mm recoiless that we also humped. In so many discussions I see it is not the need for a new weapons system but addressing the weight of carried equipment and the real need for body armor in all combat scenarios particularly where body armor limits carrying adequate weapons and ammunition..

By: Rocket_Redleg

Rocket_Redleg — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:07:59 +0000

Send more GMLRS!!

By: sungster

sungster — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:06:40 +0000

120 mm mortars may be too heavy for infantrymen to carry on patrol. But they can easily be trucked or helicoptered into an area of potential fighting. Another expedient while we await a precision mortar round would be to disperse more m777 howitzers armed with excalibur gps guided rounds to hotshots, particularly in Helmand where precision and low collateral damage are increasingly the order of the day.

By: Brian

Brian — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:59:27 +0000

As a former 60mm section leader in the Marine Corps, I think that a 60 fired in handheld mode is much more effective then a section or platoon of 81’s and 120’s when operating in a mountainous environment like Afghanistan. The cannon with baseplate weigh less then 20 pounds, and with every man carrying 2 rounds, you have a 12 man patrol that can wreak havoc on anyone that attacks you. When calling for fire from a section of 81’s or 120’s, you have to be in range as well as have a competent FO who can deliver rounds on target within 3 rounds. Factor in time of flight and accuracy of the first adjusting round along with the speed of the FDC and firing line, it may be 5 minutes before you have effects on target. With a 60 in handheld, it’s under 30 seconds and very accurate in the hands of good gunner. It makes more sense to equip units with 60’s to be fired in handheld mode for this fight and develop the high-speed GPS rounds for the bigger bore guns for a future conflict in an urban theatre where they will be most effective.

By: Daniel

Daniel — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:05:48 +0000

does not Israel already have a 120mm guided munition?

By: ajSpades

ajSpades — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:02:54 +0000

An answer to the problem of enemies taking cover would be a laser rangefinder with integrated GPS unit. The unit would know where it is (GPS) and would know the range and bearing to the target (laser rangefinder). Trigonometry could then be used to derive the target’s GPS coordinates. If the target is behind a target, input an offset and distance from the point the laser is striking.
For an incoming munition, you would then have both a laser designator and a GPS solution. Hurray for redundancy. If this system could be sized like an assault rifle, the infantryman on the ground could self-designate targets for laser and/or GPS guided munitions. Pair the infantryman targeting solution with UAVs overhead, and you could get a very precise solution.

By: papa54

papa54 — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:01:03 +0000

rules of engagement… damn „ thats all i heard in vietnam.. what good does it do for moral people to have to wait till they are shot at in order to shoot back???? that stragity is about as dumb as the forefathers standing side by side into a hail of enemy rifles… it didnt work then and it wont now. damn govt crap heads make these rules of engagement„ pisses me off that the top brass still uses a tactic that didnt work in my days and sure as hell is n ot gonna work in this day.. if we can not fight our enemy because of our govt, then it appears our govt is in cahoots with our enemy..

By: Bronco46

Bronco46 — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:53:55 +0000

I don’t feel we need to put to much emphasis on smart 60mm mortar rounds this is a relatively short range weapon that in the hands of well trained mortarmen can be used quite surgically. Doug is right we don’t need to reduce the charge in these weapons to make room for guidance packages. Isn’t a ten dollar round that be bought in volume better then a round that may cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. I know all we cared about was having enough ammo, accuracy was something we shot for, so to speak, because it was in our own best interest. Let’s use technology where it’s appropriate.

By: Guest

Guest — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:39:08 +0000

I am a former memebr of CSSC 3/10 CAV, 1st CAV DIV in the early to mid 1970’s. I was colateral duty medic and armorer. We routinely had 81mm mortars in the arms room and mounted on track vehicles during operational activity.

We actually humped the 81mm by foot at times, set it up, fired and relocated. The odd guy out is usually stuck carrying ammo rounds.

By: Andrew

Andrew — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:11:45 +0000

The 120mm Mortar is certainly too heavy to hump but thats why we have helicopters. We certainly have the air assets to insert the Mortar Squads or Platoons near the action and displace or extract them when needed. Its not really necessary to be that close with a two mile range! –From a former enlisted Airborne 11C and Infantry officer.

By: doug

doug — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:00:03 +0000

M1064A3 Gavin 120mm mortar carriers are light tracks far more mobile than any wheeled vehicle in Afghanistan and are available right now to shoot guided and unguided rounds. All any commander has to do is ask for them and their crews and they could be in action in a matter of days. We don’t need to reduce the already tiny HE fill in 60mm and 81mm mortar bombs with guidance heads nor waste millions of dollars and months of time trying to procure them.

By: chris

chris — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:41:22 +0000

The precision 120 mm should have been there a long time ago. Isn’t this a solved problem tech-wise?

And the 81 and 60 mm need to happen, especially the 60 mm.