Lawmakers Slam Tanker RFP

Lawmakers Slam Tanker RFP

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama notes “with alarm” in a letter to Defense Secretary Robert Gates that the draft tanker RFP “omits an assessment of risk associated with either schedule, past performance, or price…” Shelby supports the Northrop Grumman tanker.

Rep. Norm Dicks of Washington cites four “serious concerns” about the RFP which he believes “demonstrate a clear bias for the EADS/NG tanker proposal” in his letter to Shay Assad, director of defense procurement at the Pentagon.

The Pentagon? Well, you get the feeling they are a bit tired of all this harrumphing and just want to get some planes bought.

“As we have said in the past, this is not a rerun of the prior process or the prior RFP,” said spokeswoman Cheryl Irwin. “With this new draft RFP, we are very cognizant of the criticisms made and are taking very strong steps to try and correct those criticisms.”

But the lawmakers will make their points. After all many jobs, much money and a key capability are at stake.

So here’s a bit more of what Shelby said. “The draft RFP creates a cost shootout where the lowest priced bid wins, regardless of capabilities offered – capabilities that could save the lives of our warfighters. Such a race to the bottom is unworthy of our men and women in uniform. The draft RFP needs a serious rewrite to ensure that the taxpayer and the warfighter are equally protected. We cannot have our military flying in paper airplanes simply because it’s cheaper,” wrote the senator, who was joined in signing the letter by the other federal lawmakers from Alabama.

Shelby and co. also are “very concerned” that the draft RFP “explicitly marginalizes or eliminates 21st century performance that was highly valued during the previous competition, including capacity for airlift, passengers, and medical evacuation. As a result, most of the RFP’s requirements could be met by the KC-135 designed over 50 years ago.”

Ouch!

Back to Dicks. He, of course, hauls out the World Trade Organization’s reported draft finding that EADS received illegal subsidies from European governments. This finding — which is not yet official and may be appealed once it becomes official — “must still be factored in” to the competition to ensure “fair judgment” by the Pentagon, he says in his Oct. 23 letter.

Dicks resurrects the life cycle cost criticism of the Northrop product. He says the fuel cost assumed in the draft RFP are “unrealistic” and “will grossly distort” the cost of fuel, meaning the US might buy a plane that will cost much more than expected over time. Dicks spends one page of a single-spaced letter discussing the fuel issue in his letter to Shay Assad, director of defense procurement at the Pentagon.

Then he lambasts the Pentagon for choosing the wrong bases for its military construction costs, saying they only picked four National Guard or Reserve bases. Choosing these bases may mean construction costs “are likely to much higher” in real life than the draft RFP would find.

Finally, Dicks hammers away at what could be a true weakness in Boeing’s offering — the rate of fuel offload in its proposed boom. The new requirement is for at least 1,200 gallons per minute to feed C-5s and C-17s, which is what the Northrop tanker can reportedly offload. Boeing’s tanker can handle about 900 gallons a minute. This requirement changed from the last competition when it was not mandatory.

But the Air Force told Dicks that the “requirement was and still is 1,200 GPM. In the previous source selection this was a tradable requirement,” noting that a company able to offload less would get “partial credit.” The Air Force argued that the new draft RFP “clarifies this requirement.”

Dicks will have none of it, saying “it is more than curious” that the new requirement “conveniently coincides” with Northrop’s stated capability.

All in all, Dicks thinks the RFP “needs to be significantly improved” to reflect his concerns.

Let’s see how much the Pentagon rewrites the draft RFP to take these concerns into account. My guess is that not much will change.

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All of these RFP criticisms would look a lot more convincing if they didn’t originate from members of Congress with a financial stake in the competition. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a non-Boeing or NG Congressman express an opinion on the matter.

A split buy remains the sole politically-feasible option. Regardless of whether you stay with the old KC-X/KC-Y/KC-Z strategy or replace all KC-135R upfront with a split B767/A330 buy, you still end up with 3 aircraft in the end and 4 aircraft in service for 20+ years. The argument about too many aircraft for logistics and training won’t fly.

KC-X/KC-Y/KC-Z strategy (15 aircraft a year for 12 years in each cycle)
2015–2026.…2027–2038.…2039–2050.…2051-on
KC-10.….….…KC-10.….….…KC-135R.….……KC-Y
KC-135R.……KC-135R.……KC-X.….….….…..KC-Y
KC-X.….….….…KC-X.….….…..KC-Y.….….….…..KC-Z
.….….….….….….KC-Y.….….…..KC-Z

Alternate Strategy 12 B767 + 12 A330 a year for 15 years, then 12 KC-Y a year to replace 60 KC-10s
2015–2029.…2030–2035.…2035-on
KC-10.….….…KC-10
KC-135R.……KC-Y.….….……KC-Y
B767.….….…..B767.….….……B767
A330.….….……A330.….….……A330

Good Evening Folks,

Is this any way to buy a tanker? In the US it is, and I’m sure that it’s just pure coincidence that Mississippi and Louisiana are two of the three states that the Democrats have to win over for passage of healthcare in the Senate, with Oklahoma being the third to get the 60 votes.

Sorry Cole but a dual buy is out of the question in would provide to large of a maintenance burden on a shrinking Air Force.

Quite frankly with the capping of the F-22 at 187, no new C-130J’s after current contract expires, a possibility that the JSF F-35 (the last manned fighter) buy might be significantly reduced, capping the C-17 at 220–230 planes, and at the rate of retiring old aircraft will not be filled 100% with replacements, there are just to many variables that are uncertain right now, it would be pure folly to buy tankers at this time regardless of the political environment.

Again I will take the position that I last took when this issue came up. There is no compelling reason for a tanker buy at the time, a study by the Air Force itself on it’s tanker fleet contradicted the popular myth that this is a must do, or die situation. As before I support of taking the tanker project off the board for five years. In that cooling off period the Air Force, Navy and Marines can assess their needs and ask for a bid accordingly.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Shelby is FOS! The requirements for airlift, passengers, and medical evacuation are UNCHANGED from the previous RFP. And no the KC-135 can NOT meet most of the new RFP’s requirements. A KC-135 with modern systems could could meet most of them BUT the USAF has made it clear since the very begining (which was 1996) that it does not need MORE tanker than the KC-135, its needs new tankers (because the KC-135s are old & costly to operate/maintain AND WILL NOT LAST FOREVER) with fuel offload at range capability similar to the KC-135R & preferably more airlift capability (for which only medevac has been given any quantitative requirement) than the KC-135.

KC-30 supporters SHOULD be rejoicing that selection critera for new RFP are not capabilities based. In the last solicitation it was the KC-767AT which was found to have the superior capabilities — meeting MORE requirements & being superior in MORE & more highly valued requirements than the KC-30.

What KC-30 supporters SHOULD be concerned with is if the KC-30 can actually meet all 373 manditory requirements. After all, SOME of them are ones that the KC-X Source Selection Team was unable to justify that it was reasonable that the KC-30 met…

Rate of fuel offload in its proposed boom is NOT a Boeing weekness. In the last RFP the requirement was for 900 gal/min. Boeing proposed a 6th generation boom capable with >1000 gal/min (100+ gal/min greater than the requirement & its 5th generation boom on Italian & Japanese KC-767s). Assuming the new requirement stays at 1200 gal/min, Boeing CAN redesign its 6th generation boom for that — hell IF the requirements increases to 1500 gal/min (that of the KC-10 boom) Boeing can redesign its 6th generation boom for that.

Geez Byron, I purposely showed you that with the KC-X/KC-Y/KC-Z strategy there are four (4) aircraft to be mantained between 2027 and 2050, or a span of 24 years! With the alternate strategy hinted at by Congressman Murtha and suggested by NG/EADs (at least 12 a/c a year for each), you have four (4) aircraft to be maintained between 2015 and 2034, or a span of only 20 years! In the end you are back to 3 aircraft with either option.

BTW, in my original chart, it should have read “KC-X” on the top line under “2051-on” of the current KC-X/KC-Y/KC-Z strategy.

Recall everybody that John Young revealed that in the orginal contest, Boeing bid $15.4 billion ($226.47 million each) for the first 68 KC-X aircraft while NG/EADS bid just $12.5 billion ($183.82 million each). Hence the high bidder now knows how low the low bidder can go.

Now we are bidding on all 179 aircraft which is supposed to cost around $35 billion, or $194.4 million each. Boeing was trying to charge C-17-like prices for its first 68 aircraft and would have had to bid an impossibly low amount on the remaining 111 aircraft to average the $35 billion figure total, while NG/EADS would have cost U.S. taxpayers considerably LESS than $35 billion for its 179 A330s.

But wait, because Boeing is virtually assured an advantage for both fuel consumption and military construction, they can purposely bid considerably more than NG/EADS and still avoid the 1% threshhold where the larger A330 fuel payload and 463L pallet capability would come into consideration.

Sorry USAF. If the current RFP holds, you assure yourself the lesser aircraft at more procurement cost. Does that make any sense?

> Rate of fuel offload in its proposed boom is NOT a Boeing weekness

Boeing’s whining about it would indicate otherwise

the question isn’t whether they could do it, it’s whether they could do it on time and on budget

the gen5 boom works NOW and has a known cost

gen6 will cost more and a redesign to allow 1200 gpm will cost even more

considering the heavy emphasis placed on cost, that might not be insignificant

and considering their gen6 boom hasn’t even flown yet, and then they have to redesign it, it might not meet the required schedule

Boeing isn’t whining about it. Asking why the change (ESPECIALLY given that it is the ONLY substantive requiremnt change from the last RFP) is NOT whining.

> The requirements for airlift, passengers, and medical evacuation are UNCHANGED from the previous RFP.

the ‘requirement’ is unchanged in the sense that was never a requirement for a certain number of litters or pallets or seats

what IS changed is that there is now no credit for having more capability in these areas. previously that was a significant consideration, now it doesn’t even get evaluated unless the costs are within 1%

> In the last solicitation it was the KC-767AT which was found to have the superior capabilities — meeting MORE requirements & being superior in MORE & more highly valued requirements than the KC-30

that’s a BS argument and you know it

> Boeing isn’t whining about it. Asking why the change (ESPECIALLY given that it is the ONLY substantive requiremnt change from the last RFP) is NOT whining.

call it whatever you want, but if it wasn’t a problem, they wouldn’t be questioning it

and don’t forget Dicks is their spokesman, and he most definitely IS whining about it

fact: if Boeing had a 1200gpm boom ready to go, we have heard zero about this

fact: they don’t have a 1200gpm boom ready to go

> (ESPECIALLY given that it is the ONLY substantive requiremnt change from the last RFP)

um, seriously?

previously there were 37 mandatory requirements

now there are 373 mandatory requirements

how can you POSSIBLY say there has only been 1 substantive requirement change?

just because it’s the one Boeing might have a problem with? is that your criteria?

No this in not any way to buy a tanker. BUT it is what happens when Congress gets too involved in things it knows nothing about & FORCES a competition when one of the only two competators has alrady been rejected.

And what ARE you smoking? Sure IF Congress was not so cheap & would provide enough funds to procure 24–36 tankers per year we COULD wait BUT at the current projected procurement rate of just 12–15 tankers per year we won’t even recapitalize the existing fleet until AFTER 2050 & will have to start all over again replacing the (then) 40 year old KC-X’s in 2055!

The USAF/DOD has ALREADY assess their needs. They started doing so in 1996!

> FORCES a competition when one of the only two competators has alrady been rejected.

i think it’s time you moved on from 10 years ago when EADS didn’t have a boom

it is beyond irrelevant at this point

It is REALLY pathetic that EADS/KC-30 Kool-Aid drinkers continue to bring up such previously debunked BS. Read the GOA ruling again about the accuracy of the bid costs…

For the most part, these are the same people who could not have cared less that the tanker lease deal had MUCH lower initial/up-fronts cost (& better still that the initial/up-fronts cost did not even come out of the USAF procurment budget) but rather harked on its higher total cost (while at the same time ignoring that the difference was not that great given that the tanker lease was to have replaced the costly KC-135E 6 years earlier). But being the disingenuous people that they are they are now ignor the KC-30’s higher total cost but shout from the mountain tops about its lower initial/up-fronts cost (even after it has been determined that the initial/up-fronts cost they shout are inaccurate).

A split buy is nonsense. Why reward the airbus countries for subsidized competition that has had an adverse impact on our own industry? Sole source this thing to Boeing now. Otherwise, there will be conflict on conflict, war without end.

If you really, really want a tanker sometime in the next 20 years Air Force, sole source it to Boeing. Unless, of course, you think you have the votes to get an airbus through the Congress? I don’t think so.…

Subsidized competition? Kind of like billions in automaker bail-outs to save union jobs? Like billions in stimulus money yet spent?

Few new jobs are created by a 767 sole source that are not preserved by a split buy which simply creates or supports 25,000 new permanent jobs and aerospace industry in the south. Boeing also has ample 787 and 777 work to keep it busy. Divert unspent stimulus money to fund 24 split buy aircraft instead of 15 sole source and modernize the force sooner with a high/low mix of aircraft from the get go.

Want to bypass the protest pain? Simply ask NG/EADS if they will build twelve A330 annually for the $183.8 million they originally bid, If Boeing will bid $194.4 million ($35 billion/179 aircraft) for its 12 the annual total would be $2.2 billion for the NG/EADS and $2.3 billion for the Boeing aircraft for a 4.5 billion annual total. Compare that to buying fifteen 767 for $200 million and still spending $3 billion annually for far less aircraft that barely surpasses the KC-135R.

A split buy requires two pilot pipelines, two maintenance pipelines, two parts pipelines, upgrading existing infrastrucure to accomodate the larger airbus. Does that sound efficient? Is that the best use of the taxpayers’ funds?

Speaking of taxpayer funds–buying the airbus, whether alone or a split purchase, rewards the airbus countries for 40 years of subsidies and uses taxpayer funds to pay for airbus to set up a facility to compete with our largest exporter, Boeing.

But go ahead and have this “competition”. All it guarantees is war without end.

Not to mention when you have a manning issue with one of the airframes, switching air and ground crews from one airframe to the other isn’t an instant fix. There’s the lag time with qualification and proficiency training to be dealt with. Of course that’ll cost even more man hours and funding, further decreasing overall efficiency. For the uninformed that are saying “How difficult can it be when the two jets have the same basic design for the same job?”… yes, there can be a world of difference in maintaining and flying two similar aircraft that perform the same role.

All I hear is BA pissing and moaning. Have the NG lobbyists complained nearly as much or have they just gone around touting their product because it is so apparent that the NG/EADS team will dominate?

IMHO I say do a fly off and have both companies show their hands right now and enough with the political nonesne.

Does anyone on the BA side of this support a fly-off now? Or would everyone else need to wait while they actually try and put their plane together?

there is no point in a flyoff

these planes are well enough understood that we can estimate their performance to within a fraction of a percent

so both planes fly and perform to their spec, then what?

how do you evaluate which is ‘better’?

you have the exact same problem you have now, only you’ve wasted billions funding 2 development programs to get there

this is ridiculous!!! it’s just one side complaining about the other. we need these tankers done and the bickering to stop!! one says it favors boeing, the other says it favors northrop/eads. surprise surprise those accusations come from members of congress who, in a way, have a stake in this thing. i dont believe any of them. what i do believe, we need new tankers, and we need them fast.

wah wah wah.… I don’t want a fly-off, that’s all I hear from the Boeing side. Time to nut up or shut up.

The only way to settle this whole Tanker Problem is with an old fashion FLY OFF. Winner takes all. Doing these RFP causes to many problems and protest. With a FLY OFF you measure the actual performance against a agreed upon set of rules. Then you look at cost. It worked with the JSF could work here and cut off any protest by either company which would result in another stupid delay

> With a FLY OFF you measure the actual performance against a agreed upon set of rules.

and which rules would those be?

the rules that are going to govern the RFP?

if you can’t get both sides to agree to the rules now, what makes you think they would agree then?

there is no need for a flyoff, we know all the relevant specs. This isn’t a case of completely new designs like the F-35 vs F-32. The A330 and B767 are so well understood that we can know precisely how they will perform before they’re built.

the only question is: how do you judge the relative performances?

The rules are going to be whatever the Air Force wants them to be. The vendors should have no say in that.

and you see how well that’s going over for the draft RFP

if you believe that, fine, there’s still no need for a flyoff

have the mfgs submit their bids and have the AF evaluate according to it’s criteria

the point is that there are no unknowns (practically) so there’s no need for a flyoff

we know how each will perform and the vendors will tell us how much each will cost, the AF just needs to decide which meets the specs best

Good Afternoon Cole,

Referencing Congress Murtha, come on you don’t have to stoop that low.

Cole the tanker RFP and Bid are out of the control of the AF procurement or even Sec. Gates. It’s all political now. The lobbyist for both NG and Boeing, neither virgins at the game, have opened up their ATM’s and Congress members with Murtha at the front of the line are making withdrawals.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

New tankers are not a jobs program: they’re a vital upgrade to one of the most valuable support functions
provided by AMC. Therefore fair trade or not, subsidized or not, the only criteria is to buy the best tanker
on offer. That means no split buy.

Congressmen and Senators from affected states should find other ways of funding their political careers
than at the cost of US military effectiveness.

We’ve just passed through a horrible episode in Afghanistan where US-made rifles jammed in combat:
http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​1​0​/​1​3​/​s​m​a​l​l​-​a​r​m​s​-​j​amm... even though there are Belgian SCAR
and German HK 416 rifles available that jam 75% less often (and are used by SOF)

Time to buy the best, regardless of source. Might as well include in that buy a few million HK 416 and SCAR rifles. There’s too much at stake.

New tankers are not a jobs program: they’re a vital upgrade to one of the most valuable support functions
provided by AMC. Therefore fair trade or not, subsidized or not, the only criteria is to buy the best tanker
on offer. That means no split buy.

Congressmen and Senators from affected states should find other ways of funding their political careers
than at the cost of US military effectiveness.

We’ve just passed through a horrible episode in Afghanistan where US-made rifles jammed in combat:
http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​0​9​/​1​0​/​1​3​/​s​m​a​l​l​-​a​r​m​s​-​j​amm... even though there are Belgian SCAR
and German HK 416 rifles available that jam 75% less often (and are used by SOF)

Time to buy the best, regardless of source. Might as well include in that buy a few million HK 416 and SCAR rifles. There’s too much at stake.

> the only criteria is to buy the best tanker on offer. That means no split buy.

just to play devil’s advocate, the ‘best’ tanker might depend on the situation, thus by buying both, you always have the ‘best’, regardless of situation

irtusk,

Quit trying to shove that EADS/KC-30 Kool-Aid down everyon’e throat. There was NEVER ANY CREDIT FOR HAVING MORE FUEL OFFLOAD, OR AIRLIFT CAPACITY!

Read the KC-X Source Selection Team’s own agency report. The KC-767AT met MORE requirements & superior in MORE & more highly valued requirements than the KC-30. But the KC-X Source Selection Team ignored that & ‘selected’ the KC-30 on an alternate set of criteria NOT in (& even in direct contradiction to) the solicitation.

Boeing questioned the fuel offload rate change because it was the only substantive requirement change from the previous RFP (ALL other previous RFP KPPs remain essentially unchanged) & it wanted to know why.

EADS not having an operational boom was not the only reason why the USAF rejected it.

***

DoesntliketoShare,

What ARE you smoking? It is NG/EADS that is doing the pissing and moaning. They have even (once again) ‘threatened’ to not bid unless they get their way.

A fly-off would be a complete waist of time & money (NEITHER of which we have to spare) & would only be of any falue if the ‘fly-of’ were between dozens of BOTH tanker. Those of us who actually have any sort of understanding of real life tanker operations know it is how the FLEET of tankers performs, not the maximum capacity of the individual tankers.

> Read the KC-X Source Selection Team’s own agency report. The KC-767AT met MORE requirements & superior in MORE & more highly valued requirements than the KC-30

i think you’re confusing the Boeing propaganda with what was actually said

> EADS not having an operational boom was not the only reason why the USAF rejected it.

you’re right, it was actually because the airforce was ORDERED to choose the 767

http://​www​.military​.com/​N​e​w​C​o​n​t​e​n​t​/​0​,​1​3​1​9​0​,​G​a​l​low...

> It is NG/EADS that is doing the pissing and moaning.

and Boeing isn’t? lol they’re BOTH whining, trying to get competitive advantage on the RFP

> They have even (once again) ‘threatened’ to not bid unless they get their way.

actually they didn’t

2 aicraft is 1 too many. 3 planes is inexcusable. 4? Well, that’s insane. That’s saying we are completely ineffectual in our efforts and are willing to accept any prosals that make everyone happy, regardless of rationality and costs.

We are looking for a tanker replacement. Not a jobs program for half of the country.

Hadn’t heard this before. I support a protracted contract at a slower build rate. We just keep pumping out tankers for the next 10 years or so. Eventually all the old planes are retired. The current production line is available for modification and upgrades. Even flow of well made parts at a good price. One stream of replacement parts. No reason a new design shouldn’t be good for 20 or 30 years with engine/avionics upgrades. Design the plane so these modifications are easily made. We know they will be made available.

This insanity of building new bombers and fighters and then cutting short the productions runs causing all new designs 5 years later is insanity. We don’t save any money doing that. We waste money doing that. Build one tanker. Build more of the existing cargo aircraft. Keep the same aircraft. Haven’t a clue how to address the fighter issues. Those are political and economic more than anything else. Total insanity and systems failure there. No end or resolution in sight.

Didn’t work for the F-23.

Good Morning Folks,

Just to make it more confusing and fun, why buy new here. Just today US Airways announced it will cut, what 200 flights. That puts more low hour Boeing’s and Airbus’s out in the desert.

It would seem to me that since the bids from each company are basically modified production aircraft why not save some tax payer money here, and buy as REALLY NEEDED by the AF and Navy.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

irtusk,

READ THE AGENCY REPORT!!!

READ THE GOA RULING!!

THE USAF CHOSE & ASKED FOR THE 767. In a October 9, 2001 letter to Congress (then) Secretary of the Air Force Roche strongly endorsed beginning to upgrade the tanker fleet with the 767 & asked Congress to provide supporting language to jump start the process through an operating lease with an option to purchase the aircraft in the future. The USAF STILL sent out a RFP as part of the maditory ‘competitive procurement’ process. Airbus’ response with the KC-330 was found not to not meet the requirements.

No, Boeing is not whining. It has voiced its concern about the new draft RFP & asked a number of questions to better understand what EXACTLY the USAF/DOD wants. But has shown a willingness to work through the process.

TWICE in the last solicitaion, NG/EADS ‘threatened’ to not compete AND it has even indicated that it might not this time [http://​www​.forbes​.com/​f​e​e​d​s​/​a​f​x​/​2​0​0​9​/​1​0​/​2​8​/​a​f​x​7​0​5​6​3​0​8​.​h​tml]. In the last solicitation, NG/EADS suceeded in forcing the requirements/criteria to be altered to accomodate its otherwise noncompetative aircraft — it remains to be seen if it will work this time.

***

VancBob,

12–15 tankers a year IS a protracted contract at a slower build rate! At that rate it is going to take 30+ years to replace the entire fleet & the last KC-135Rs will be 80+ years old AND we will have to start all over again to begine replacing the (then) nearly 40 year old KC-Xs.

VancBob, look at the two options I listed above. While you are building new aircraft in EITHER option there are still 2 types of old aircraft still in the system: KC-135R and KC-10. Regardless of which option you choose you have 4 aircraft being maintained, parted out, and trained on for 20+ years. Your argument and that of the DoD on that point simply is irrelevant.

If anything you could eventually end up with two aircraft if you went split buy from the get go and skipped KC-Y and kC-Z entirely. Sufficient number of A330 added to the capability to refuel one KC aircraft with another, allows you to have multiple aircraft on station when needed. Departing aircraft then top off other A330s prior to returning to base. That should be a primary rationale for 1200 gpm flow and is why extra fuel capacity on board once airborne is very valuable.

> THE USAF CHOSE & ASKED FOR THE 767.

after it was told to ask for the 767, yes

> Airbus’ response with the KC-330 was found not to not meet the requirements.

even though it met more of the requirements than the KC-767

> TWICE in the last solicitaion, NG/EADS ‘threatened’ to not compete

so?

> No, Boeing is not whining.

it whined about the wto ruling not being considered
it whined about the boom offload rate
it whined about the fuel cost calculations

> AND it has even indicated that it might not this time

nice backpedal

correct, it did NOT threaten to withdraw this time if it didn’t get it’s way

it merely said it would wait for the final RFP to make any decisions (which i guess you could interpret as ‘indicating it might’)

How “precious” is this whole saga?!?! It’s just one more classic example of “The Program” being more important than the “Product”. Do you want “The Best” or an “also-ran” that may save a few jobs?
This just cracks me up! We’re talking about a bog standard AIRLINER with various hoses and pipes sticking out of it for goodness sake. This should be so simple that Blind Freddy could do it.
Step 1 .….. Select a Liner off-the-shelf (based on PRICE and DELIVERYScheds). Fixed Price with “Late Penalties”.
Step 2 .….. Buy Air to Air Refueling systems (based on a competition). Fixed Price with “Late Penalties”.
Step 3 .….. Fit Refueling systems plus other Military Items off-the-shelf/out of stock. Work to be awarded based on ability and price. Fixed Price with “Late Penalties”.
Step 4 .…. Do the job.

WTF IS SO DIFFICULT ABOUT THAT? It’s EXACTLY what Australia did.

Lie down with dogs, rise up with fleas

Dicks, Tiahrt, & Murtha unethical? I guess they learned a thing or two from their Boeing constituents

No the USAF/DOD was not told to ask for the 767! It asked for the 767 because EVEN BEFORE 9/11/01 it had chosen the 767 as its preferred choice. Again, this all started in 1996.

NO, AIRBUS claimed that the KC-330 meet more of the USAF’s requirements than the KC-767. The USAF determined otherwise. And the tanker lease KC-767 met all of the requirements it was intended to.

NG/EADS’s ‘modus operandi’ has been insteed accepting what the USAF/DOD is asking for (since it knows what it is offering ain’t it) to threaten to pull out of the congress demanded competition in order to force the USAF/DOD to CHANGE what it is asking for to accomodate what NG/EADS has to offer.

I see you did not bother to read the article I linked to…

> No the USAF/DOD was not told to ask for the 767!

Ted Stevens inserted a line item directing the AF to lease 100 Boeing tankers. How is that not telling them to get Boeing?

> Again, this all started in 1996.

the KC-30 of 1996 is irrelevant to today, time to move on

> And the tanker lease KC-767 met all of the requirements it was intended to

sure it met all the requirements, after 19 of the 26 original requirements were dropped

> to threaten to pull out of the congress demanded competition in order to force the USAF/DOD to CHANGE

and your point is?

each side is obligated to do everything it can (legally) to win the contract. If they can shape the RFP, more power to them. Maybe Boeing should take some notes

> I see you did not bother to read the article I linked to…

sure i did, they NEVER brought up any threat to drop out

they only addressed the issue (by saying it was premature to discuss) when directly asked about it

I have an idea, how about we just build a tanker to do what a tanker should do and thats refuel planes. we need to stop all this cargo/passenger ability bs, this is a flying gas station not a cargo plane. figure out which one does its main job better and buy it. Your asking for a universal answer and you cant always get one that works good. Take the hummer for example. It was designed to move soliders, not deal with ied’s. because of this people died and they blamed the vehicle for being horrible at something it was never suppose to do. you start asking equipment to do too much it becomes a jack of all traits that it does poorly but a master of none. the KC-135 does the refueling job very well but cargo wise sucks. The refueling job should come first, and be more important then how much cargo/people it can carry.

“What we need is a multi-mission tanker that can do both boom and basket refueling, that can do passenger lift, some cargo lift, and have defensive systems that allow the airplane to go wherever we need to take it.…if we’re going to war with Iran or Korea or over Taiwan or a major scenario, the first 15 to 30 days are going to be air refueling intensive. But what I’m talking about is the global war on terrorism, sir, for the next 15 or 20 or 25 years. That is not an air refueling intensive scenario and that’s why a multi-mission airplane to me makes sense.”

William, guess who said that?

Back in 2006 as head of the Airlift Command, General Schwartz said the above as he forecast employment of KC-X for more greater airlift than historical statistics imply. Considering the overburdening of C-17 flight hours and airframe stressing loads in current conflicts, greater use of KC-X for airlift will be essential.

General Schwartz also cited new scenarios rendering past conflict average offloads somewhat irrelevant…except OEF where it was closer to 80,000 lbs per aircraft because distances were greater. In scenarios Gen Schwartz mentioned above, you would have the new threat of TBMs precluding closer positioning of KC-X that pfcem and Boeing like to cite. Instead, expect longer en route and longer anchor and track distances splitting the difference between basing fields and distant targets.

Geez, I wish there was a edit function. Sorry about the “more greater.” Forgot to take out “more” when I inserted “greater.”

Cole,

I understand why General Schwartz would want the multimission capability, it would be a great asset in air mobility. All im saying is that whichever tanker they pick needs to be the best at its intended mission which is refueling. I think the cargo mission should take a back seat to the primary mission while being looked at. I would rather an aircraft thats great at refueling and mediocre at airlift, then vice-versa, or mediocre at both. Now if either company can build an aircraft great at both more power too them, i just want the best airframe flying for the intended mission. unfortunatly we both know that most likely is not going to happen, its going to be the company with the most support and the one that brings the most jobs. Its a horrible way to purchase aircraft, but thats what happens when too many people get involved who wold love some “thank you” gifts from companies at the expense of the military.

irtusk,

You have abslutely ZERO sense of history. Ted Stevens’ inserted line item WAS IN RESPONSE TO (then) Secretary of the Air Force Roche’s letter!!! And again, even with the specific language authorizing the 767 (as the USAF ASKED FOR), the USAF/DOD still sent out a RFP to Aurbus.

There was no A330 tanker of any kind in 1996. The relevance of 1996 is that THAT is the year the USAF/DOD STARTED its efforts to recapitalize its tanker fleet. NOT 2006, NOT 2002, NOT EVEN 2000. 1996!!! The USAF/DOD had already chosen the 767 as its preferred option some time PRIOR to Oct 2001.

Good God man. It has already been explained to you who knows how many times why the lease tanker were not required to meet all 26 USAF requirement AND that a full capability/spec KC-767 that WOULD meet all 26 requirements was to be developed during the lease. Which does not change the fact that the KC-330 did not meet even the lowered requirements of the tanker lease.

The POINT is that NG/EADS is not at all interrested in proposing a product competative for what the USAF/DOD has made clear it wants but rather has a product it wants to sell that it knows is not what the USAF/DOD has made clear it wants — a product in fact that the USAF/DOD has rejected.

THE TITLE OF THE ARTICLE IS “Northrop won’t rule out boycott of tanker rematch” & THE VERY 1ST SENTENCE STARTS “Northrop Grumman Corp ( NOC — news — people ) left open the possibility it might boycott the Pentagon’s multi-billion-dollar aerial tanker recompetition”. Not ruling out a boycott is simply a PC way of threatening to do so.

***

Cole,

The KC-767 IS a multi-mission tanker (including being able to refuel via boom or drogue IN THE SAME FLIGHT). It is a better tanker than the KC-135R AND it is a better airlift aircraft than the C-17 (at the types of airlift the USAF/DOD intends to use them for).

The threat of TBMs is one of the reasons WHY the KC-X is intended to operate from larger numbers of smaller airfields (hence the 7000′ runway requirement) — another being improved effectiveness/efficiency. The fewer number of bases your forces operate from the GREATER the potential damage caused by even ONE TBM.

irtusk,

Ted Stevens’ inserted line item WAS IN RESPONSE TO (then) Secretary of the Air Force Roche’s letter!!!

There was no A330 tanker of any kind in 1996. The relevance of 1996 is that THAT is the year the USAF/DOD STARTED its efforts to recapitalize its tanker fleet.

It has already been explained to you who knows how many times why the lease tanker were not required to meet all 26 USAF requirement AND that a full capability/spec KC-767 that WOULD meet all 26 requirements was to be developed during the lease. Which does not change the fact that the KC-330 did not meet even the lowered requirements of the tanker lease.

The POINT is that NG/EADS is not at all interrested in proposing a product competative for what the USAF/DOD has made clear it wants but rather has a product it wants to sell that it knows is not what the USAF/DOD has made clear it wants — a product in fact that the USAF/DOD has rejected.

THE TITLE OF THE ARTICLE IS “Northrop won’t rule out boycott of tanker rematch”. Not ruling out a boycott is simply a PC way of threatening to do so.

Cole,

The KC-767 IS a multi-mission tanker (including being able to refuel via boom or drogue IN THE SAME FLIGHT). It is a better tanker than the KC-135R AND it is a better airlift aircraft than the C-17 (at the types of airlift the USAF/DOD intends to use them for).

The threat of TBMs is one of the reasons WHY the KC-X is intended to operate from larger numbers of smaller airfields (hence the 7000′ runway requirement) — another being improved effectiveness/efficiency. The fewer number of bases your forces operate from the GREATER the potential damage caused by even ONE TBM.

But the A330 carries far more pallets. And the threat of TBMs still requires airfields farther from front lines. So yes, advantages exist in having more aircraft per smaller airfield just as advantages exist for A330s better fuel offload at 1000nm and beyond. Either aircraft can use 7000′ airfields.

If you look at the RFP mission profile which may or may not exemplify typical past mission profiles, it most certainly isn’t efficient KC-X employment. At 1000 NM radius, you have aircraft flying 2 hours out to a location, refueling for an hour, and then two hours back to base, while retaining 2 hours of fuel as a reserve. In other words the aircraft carries around 6 hours of fuel just to offload fuel over one short hour.

Why waste fuel sending excessive aircraft to stay on station for just one hour? Is a two hour reserve required for KC aircraft able to be refueled mid-air by others accompanying KC-X should one be a bit short?

Given a mission to maintain 4 KC aircraft on station at 1000 nm radius offloading 78,000 lbs per hour (similar to OEF) over a 3 hour period, compare:

* Four B767 offloading 78,000 lbs 0100–0200 hrs
* Four different B767 offloading 78,000 lbs 0200–0300 hrs
* Four different B767 offloading 78,000 lbs 0300–0400 hrs
Total of 12 B767 are required to fly the RFP profile of one hour on station. The result is that 48 combined hours of fuel are wasted having 12 aircraft fly “four hours round trip” to and from the anchor location

OR

* Four A330 offloading 117,000 lbs 0100–0230
* Four different A330 offloading 117,000 lbs 0230–0400
Total of 8 A330 required burning less fuel than 12 B767. Only 32 combined hours of fuel wasted having eight aircraft fly “four hours round trip” to and from the anchor location…but at slightly higher fuel consumption per aircraft

But wait, a split buy offers the best alternative of all:

* Four B767 offloading 117,000 lbs 0100–0230 hrs
* Four A330 topping off the four B767 at around 0230 hrs AND being available to fuel several fighters or one larger aircraft between 0215–0315
* Same four B767 offloading 117,000 lbs 0230–0400 hrs
Total of 4 B767 and 4 A330 required supporting the most overall fuel offload and probe numbers during the middle hour while burning less fuel than 8 A330s

A couple comments:
–Aerial Refueling and military missions in general are not “efficient” operations…they are “effects based” operations, so any talk of “more capability” is just “more waste” in reality. The receivers don’t line up like a queue at Wal-Mart, they are spread out all over the battlespace. So you need booms in the sky to cover that. KC-135Rs come home routinely with over double their fuel reserves, so it’s clear the war is not screaming for more fuel per boom, just more booms.
-“Fly Off” is something EADS should fear. If the USAF operational community got their hands on that electric A330 jet with its non-interlinked and non-backfed controls and throttles that just sit there, they’d freak out. How are USAF instructors going to monitor student inputs when the Airbus controls don’t move together? How are Aircraft Commanders going to “ride the controls” of the newbie CoPilots landing in a crosswind when they can’t feel the other pilot’s inputs? Nothing moves in an A330 flight deck, whether it’s the autopilot or the other pilot. When pilots both try to fly the jet, the computers average out their inputs and neither pilot feels the other guy’s inputs. Try instructing receiver aerial refueling with those controls. The scary fact is that Airbus’ flight deck control philosophy is completely unfit for USAF operations and a Fly Off would prove it. Even a Simulator Fly Off would do the trick, and when the USAF evaluator pilots got into the Airbus non-normal procedures manuals…Whoa Nelly, that’d be the end of it. A nightmare compared to the traditional Boeing flight controls and abnormal ops procedures. Then consider the millions of lines of codes that truly fly the Airbus airplane, not the pilots. Was all that code written for the myriad of contingencies our military pilots face? Tactical airfield entry, receiver and tanker refueling, defensive maneuvers, and on and on. Those jets were coded for vanilla up-over-and-down profiles. Using them for tankers would just lead us to an endless and scary flight software update for each new problem identified. At least in Boeing fly-by-wire aircraft there is a simple overhead switch to kill computer augmentation and fly the thing like a Cessna. Again, the A330 is not fit for the USAF Tanker role.

Nice made up numbers with no bearing on reality.

Thanks for so clearly demonstating your lack of understanding of real world tanker operations.

pfcem, I assure you the numbers are accurate. Hmm, using fuel consumption rates from the Conklin and DeDecker study (that Boeing paid for) lets account for money/fuel being spent just to get to and from the example anchor mission 1000nm from base while supporting 3 hours of tanker station time:

Twelve B767 @ 1722 gals/hr x 60 hours of fuel (12 a/c x 5 hrs) = 103,320 gals consumed

OR

Eight A330 @ 2139 gals/hr x 44 hours of fuel (8 a/c x 5.5 hrs) = 94,116 gals consumed

OR

Four B767 @ 1722 gals/hr x 28 hours of fuel (4 a/c x 7 hrs) = 48,216 gals consumed
Four A330 @ 2139 gals x 20 hours of fuel (4 a/c x 5 hrs) = 42,780 gals consumed
Total.….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….90,996 gals consumed by 4 B767 + 4 A330

That is 90,996 gals x $42/gal according to Ashton Carter = $3, 821,832 spent compared to $4,339,440 spent for the 12 B767 option.…nearly half a million dollars saved

Now keep in mind it could just as easily be one B767 and one A330 working as a team at many different locations and the savings would still exist.

And yet 4 other nations have chosen the A330 and figured out how to train their pilots. Airliner companies have found ways to train their pilots,

Considering the numbers involved and the scarcity and rising cost of fuel, methinks the USAF should find more efficient ways to spend our tax dollars.

You STILL do not get it & it has become ABUNDANTLY clear that you NEVER will get it.

The Air Force pilots will learn to fly the airbus. They are so use to the linkage system on the KC-135 and KC-10 they might like the newer system. Also I think they would build back ups into the Air Bus Tanker. Remeber the KC-767 also has a fly by wire system. It will take a little time to get use to it.

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