Northrop Threatens To Drop Tanker Bid

Northrop Threatens To Drop Tanker Bid

UPDATED: Sen. Murray Says NG “Up to Old Tricks” and Wants to “Undermine the American Aerospace Industry.”

Northrop Grumman has told Pentagon acquisition chief Ash Carter that it will not submit a bid for the KC-X tanker program unless the government makes significant changes to the final request for proposal. The company made its declaration in a letter today from incoming Northrop CEO Wes Bush to Carter: “As a result, I must regrettably inform you that, absent a responsive set of changes in the final RFP, Northrop Grumman has determined that it cannot submit a bid to the department for the KC-X program.”

Bush left the door to a vibrant competition somewhat open, adding that the company hopes the Pentagon “will elect to modify its approach to this procurement in a way that will enable us to offer our product for your consideration.”

Company spokesman Randy Belote confirmed the letter’s contents. Belote said the company is “convinced that they want a prefer smaller tanker with less multirole which puts our tanker at a terrible disadvantage.”

A veteran aerospace analyst was more direct. “This is the stupidest contest you’ve ever seen,” said Joel Johnson, a consultant for various international clients, including Northrop Grumman. “It’s a Boeing RFP. When air forces have been able to decide on merit and price, every one of them has gone with the KC-45 clone.”

Belote said the company does expect “the final RFP will take our concerns into account.”

Northrop has considered this approach for some time and it was known as “the nuclear option.” The company decided to go nuclear after a Nov. 4 letter to the Pentagon in which the company first said it might not be able to bid under the terms of the current RFP elicited a negative response.

“The process has not allowed us to actually have a dialogue,” Belote said.

Capitol Hill began to weigh in with Washington Sen. Patty Murray’s claim that Northrop has made a “transparent attempt to once again press the Air Force into tilting the tanker competition in their favor by threatening to drop out of the competition.”

She said the military “shouldn’t be fooled by Airbus’ tricks,” adding that the country should not respond to “the bullying of an illegally subsidized foreign competitor who has made no secret of its attempts to undermine the American aerospace industry and the jobs it supports.” Washington state is, of course, the center of the great mass of Boeing’s operations, though the comp[any is now headquartered in Chicago.

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It's a shame that Northrop does not want to submit a bid for a new tanker with specs provided by the Pentagon. Are they saying, it's my way or no-way?

Too bad Mccain won’t get it for the EU again He will have lost a lot of money in pay out

Larry – What Northrup is saying is that they won't submit a bid to build an aircraft only Boeing would build.

They won this competition once, they don't want to play a second time now that it's been re-rigged in favor of Boeing because a bunch of Congressmen are more concerned about the jobs in their districts than the quality of the equipment we provide to the men and women we send into harm's way. The priority for military acquisitions needs to be performance. Period. If we're sending someone to war, send them with the best equipment. If your priority is putting a bunch of people to work in Kansas instead of bringing the boys back home to Kansas from a war, you've got the wrong priorities.

Predictable. It worked the last time, why not try it again? I fully expect DOD to run after them and kiss their…er…accede to their demands to preserve the "competition". Sad really. As I've been saying a "competition" only guarantees war without end. If USAF wants a tanker, then I hope Mr. Carter not only dares them to walk away, but tells them not to let the door hit them in the … er …. tells them "thank you for your interest in national defense". Boeing has the support from the majority in Congress anyway; airbus …excuse me… Northrop Grumman does not.

They still haven't finished with this tanker s**t? It's been what over a year of this back and worth political lobbying BS that plagues DC?

Hit the submit button too soon…

they should just make the simple and easy decision to pick the tanker that #1holds the most fuel and #2can stay in the air longer.

Zach – you wrote – "easy decision to pick the tanker that #1holds the most fuel and #2can stay in the air longer."
Is that how you pick out a car? You automatically pick the one that holds the most 'stuff' (including fuel) and the one you can drive the furthest? Must be interesting seeing you drive a school bus around town.

Notice that they (NG) didn't specify in the letter (at least what has been released to the public) what the specific concerns might be. Are they being restricted to costs, life cycle, performance? All I see here is blather.

Less face it Boeing might win due to the slant on the proposal, but then what you going to do when like the other "tankers" they built for Japan and Italy are several years late because the design they have for this new tanker is still on PAPER. Least NGC/EADS has a flyable model for the US Tanker. Boeing got what congress, senate and the AF in their pocket

It’s a shame that NG is being forced to have to rebuild an aircraft that they have already built in order for Boeing to have a chance at the second letting of this contract.

As for Larry putting words into NG’s mouth saying “It’s our way or no way”, consider this. NG already won the contract with a far superior acft. Boeing has not even built theirs yet. So who, under the new version has a better chance if the RFP totally rewrites the acft performance Specs?. This means NG would have to totally build a new acft at considerable expense and Boeing would not. Think intelligently before you speak Larry. The Air Force has already stated they would perfer the KC-45 (NG’s version) over the Boeing concept. Concept because Boeing has even built it yet.

What people aren't talking about is the fact that either the Airbus or the 777 will cost additional billions to reconfigure airbases ( tarmacks, hangers ect.) to handle these larger aircraft. Build C17's too transport and tankers to tank.

what they are saying is you should get the polotics out . The goverment want the company who will pad the most pockets not the best interest of the Air Force and the men and women who who depend on it being ready to go and do the complete mission.

Then Boeing would submit a tanker based on the 777. Bigger is not always better. Sometimes being bigger is a liability. In this case, it clearly is. A larger tanker costs more initially, is more limited in basing (where and the number that can be deployed), and costs more to fly. Right now, the KC-135 typically do not offload all the fuel they carry. Look, the last competition was rigged in Northrop/Airbus's favor. The Air Force gave credit to the A330 where it should not have and violated their own rules for evaluating the proposals. That's why Boeing protested and why Boeing won the protest.

How much longer must we retain Boeing on the federal welfare list? They cant bid contracts, cant perform flyoff's in a timely fashion and it is always someone else's fault. I say let them fold and take Washington State with them. Having dealt with them on both sides of the fence for the last 15 years I would be willing to say good riddence.

Anyone ever consider size of the aircraft? All the room on the ramp one of these aircraft require? The NATO standard runway is 47.6 feet wide. The planes can't make a u-turn on the runway. Nose wheel is gonna get stuck in the ground. Those aircraft don't have the power for a "breakaway" maneuver. Typical DOD thinking; "bigger is better". You don't need an eighteen wheeler truck when a VW works fine.

A viable solution would be to award two contracts: one to Boeing for a short-range tanker and the other to Northrop Grumman for a long-range tanker. That way, it will be more cost-effective when deploying the tankers.

What about all this PBL and leaving a small foot print. You can not do that with two variations of A/C from different companies.

That crossed my mind. Replace the KC-135 with KC-767 and the KC-10 with the KC-45. Both contractors win and the USAF gets new tankers ASAP. The mission needs could be matched to the plane's capabilities. The KC-135 are way overdue to be consigned to the boneyard.

That is about the dumbest remark I have seen. If anything it would be Dicks and Murry and all the others from the Boeing States that will make out on this deal

Please keep in mind this: The new aircraft must be able to play a "multi-role" aspect. From what I've read, NG does not want this which should be a deal-killer for them. The Air Force, in it's asinine rush to cut the C-141 in order to line someone else's pockets for the incoming C-17 (at that time), is primarily at fault for this. No one at all considered the Aeromedical aspect of ridding their inventory of the main workhorse since the late 50's. The Lockheed C-141B and C models were capable of carrying over 100 casualties on a global mission. The C-141A could carry that amount but didn't have the aerial refueling capability at that time. No other aircraft, including the C-17 can do that because the original parameters for the C-17 were cut and cut again time after time. It was to have a combination of the 141 and 130 abilities but the lobbyists saw to the demise of that…

…Now we have no real workhorse that can carry that many wounded and function in other roles. Keep in mind that as of 2004, the C-17 was 1 million hours of flight time OVER it's expected time of useage. It wasn't to reach that mark until (if I recall correctly) 2010!!!
The next aircraft must be a multi-role airframe with Aeromedical Evacuation in mind. If they develop and win a contract (and this is meant to all bidders but NG in particular since they are fighting against a larger multi-role craft) to build something akin to a KC-135 (oh joy, less than a dozen patients) or KC-10 (patients? Are you kidding?) it will be to the combat casualty's disadvantage!

All I notice is that you obviously din't read the attached letter from NGC ( you have to clicky the blue letters that say "made its declaration today"), which clearly states that the draft RFP is slanted toward a smaller, less capable Boeing aircraft. Sorry for the redundancy, "less capable, Boeing aircraft." So if Carter wants a Boeing aircraft and the follow-on Boeing Executive job, he can subsidize them again and go sole source to Boeing. Boeing was the company claiming that the USAF Acquisition team was stupid following the last award, now Carter can prove them right!

Maybe NG should look at it this way: new competition, new design effort. Some of the requirements are going to make Boeing rework aspects of their design. So NG should just realize it can't rest on what it designed before.

Brant: What's with your veiled cout omments pertaining to the Boeing product. Ask any Airline pilot who has flown both Boeing and Airbus and they will tell you that the Airbus planes do NOT have the quality and durability that Boeing planes do.

Despite all the tricks and haggeling, maybe Murtha has the best idea. Put out two separate RFBs – one medium and one jumbo sized tanker. That way both companies can bid, and MAYBE our military can finally get some replacement tankers !

If NG doesn't reconsider, maybe Boeing can start building before summer.

A year???? Try 8 or 10 years that the USAF has been asking for a new tanker.

So the Boeing personnel are a bunch of pricks. . . who cares. The Company has simply built three of the most long-lived and top performing aircraft the USAF has ever flown – the B-17, B-52 and KC-135. Maybe that reputation should outweigh some of the other factors.

Air Force designs 1st for primary mission of airframe, which in this case is a tanker that can operate from smaller runways and functionally maneuver on limited tarmacks that are readily available in 3rd would countries where we now find ourselves engaged. It facilitates a quick turnaround to reload and quickly get back to rendezvous with fighters rather than a 6 to 8 hr flight each way to reload. They already have a fleet of KC-10 (larger) tankers that have multi-role capabilities. Secondly, the N/G deal is laden with hidden obstacles like with the cash strapped foreign manufacturer-Airbus, their deal on the front end calls for initial sub-assembly build in europe and barged to mobile for final assembly. Could this aspect then be exploited after the contract to extend this indefinitely to keep more jobs in europe. Basic economics demonstrate a front loaded deal when N/G is only an agent and will get monies for acting as such without any manufacturing input and therefore cannot compete with the companies who act alone as Boeing. Boeing may not operate on the cheap but look at their record not only with the current KC-135s built in the 50s and 60s but with all their commercial acft. In this case we are hauling fuel, therefore as a previous USAF Flight Mechanic I want a safe, quality ACFT.

What some people might not understand is that EADS designed aircraft i.e. airbus, are throw away aircraft which only have a flight life of 10 years. The maintenance to keep those aircraft flying after that period is very expensive.

Boeing did it right the first time, I think they will do it right again, I flew the boom on KC-135's and i felt like I was in the best flying acft in the sky> that acft held up great during the Linebacker 2 missions and worked like a horse, Boeing puts out a sturdy acft, let them do it again.

For the life of me I cannot understand why we don't just get on with the KC 767 which is already built tested and certified and is in operational service. I think India has one and Japan has three. The following is from the Boeing web site:

The KC-767 Global Tanker: Capable, Efficient, Deployable

With its optimum size and capability, and overall operational flexibility, the KC-767 Global Tanker international aerial refueling tanker is built, flown, tested, and certified, with three delivered and in operational service today.

Why do we want to give the contract to NG and wait for them to finalize design, build, test and certified something new.

The KC-135 is wearing out. All we need is for the KC-135 to have a major airframe problem that grounds the fleet. If we don't get a new Tanker in the air soon our fighter and bomber forces will be sitting on the ground on US soil and won't be able to go anywhere short of packing them up and shipping them by sea.

It is time for common since to prevail and stop all the political BS.

My error. Kc-767 has been delivered to Italy & Japan. See below and following message:

Italy KC-767A

The Italy KC-767 Tanker Transport offers superior range, payload and offload capability, and will provide exceptional operational flexibility. The advanced aerial refueling boom is designed for NATO interoperability. The KC-767 tanker can refuel using either the most technically advanced boom system, wing tip air refueling pods, or centerline hose and drogue system. These refueling systems are compatible with all Italian, allied, and coalition aircraft. In addition, the KC-767 tanker features a proven, industry-standard refueling receptacle, making it capable of being refueled in flight for increased range.

Boeing is building four KC-767 tanker aircraft for Italy. Boeing continues to perform a comprehensive flight test program for Italy's KC-767 and limits discussions about the results from these continuing tests to our Italian customer to keep them fully informed on our progress. We are making good progress on maturing the tanker and look forward to fielding the first Italy tankers to the Italian Air Force. Fuel the fight. Anytime. Anywhere.

Here is Japan:

Japan KC-767

Boeing delivered two KC-767J aerial refueling tankers to Japan in February/March 2008. A third KC-767J was transferred to the Itochu Corp. in February 2009 and flown to Japan. The tanker was transferred to the Japan Air Self-Defense Force in March 2009. A fourth refueling aircraft is scheduled for delivery to Itochu in late 2009 and transfer to JASDF in the first quarter of 2010.

Edit: The C-17 hit the million-hour mark in 2006. Still way ahead of the estimate.

You are so right!!

From: Just a humble servant
To: GAO
NGC /AIRBUS is laying the ground work for a lawsuit. If the RFP, request for proposal (bid) is the other companies product and its obvious then NGC/AIRBUS can protest the RFP and award. If they get enough evidence they could get paid big bucks for not even bidding. Pretty sweet eh?
v/r

Boeing should win the Air Tanker contract period! NG is a big company and will survive the loss. The U.S.A. on the other hand should stop contracting out or off shoring, anymore of the military industrial complex!

Not only is this a growing national security problem but this ought to be a no brainer with the official unemployment rate at 10.2% or 15 million people (unofficially the unemployment rate is 17% or 26 millon people).

Another key industry to watch out for is the semi-conductor industry. Massive amounts of foreign produced micro-chips are making into U.S. miltary equipment, (space, naval, land, air, C4I, etc) and the government acknowledges that increasing numbers of the chips are suspect.

America must come to terms with her massive trade imbalance (minus $700 billon), and growing unemployment and national security interests to strike a proper balance. Giving the air tanker contract to Boeing is a good place to start.

As it stands now the system is rotten. America wake up!

JMN

France, Germany, China, Spain and the UK are the countries who make the Airbus.. How many of these countries are in the war on terror. Why should the USA support countries who will not Partake excluding spain who gave up cuz they got scared and the UK who is still there. So my 2 cents is hands down give the contract to Boeing

Northrop already has TWO working tankers and a boom that have been tested over 250 trials. Boeing (crybabies)have nothing built and their boom is a piece of paper. The last proposal Boeing lost and then filed a protest that they ultimately lost which only served to cost the taxpayers millions of dollars and put our warfighters at risk using a 50 year old system. The truth is that the Northrop Grumman entry will be assembled in the US and will create an equivalent number of jobs to Boeing’s proposal.

Chris, the UK, Germany and France are #2, 3 & 4 on the list of countries with the most troops in Afghanistan. Boeing’s partners on the 767 (Italy and Japan) are #6 on the list and Japan has none there. Oh and Spain has 1000 troops there and they aren’t pulling out. China works on the A320 not the A330. Your 2 cents isn’t worth much when it is so uninformed.

Come, come, lets play nice. did anyone see the tape of the NG exec being told that they won the bid (by a guy with a champane glass), his jaw dropped a mile. Lets remember Boeing is the world leader in tanker desigh ahd construction, they put the first booms on B-29's. The French booted us off our bases on there soil in the 60"s. If France got another hair up #$%^)((*& and decided to stop airbus delivering the A/C to NG we would be up that famous creek. Don't forget that airbus got a toehold in the worldwide A/C business by getting Billions from the european governments and selling their planes below cost, and you think Boeing is getting WELFARE?

The 767 tanker version is already flying and has a great track record. I wonder why Italy, Japan and Austrailia all bought Boeing. Say isn't Italy in airbus country. The one thing i'd love is the Air Force buying 787 tankers they could handle virtually any airport and I think the new airframe will be flying long after the current tube with wings retires. There is one thing the Air Force will tell you about Boeing, they sure give you your money's worth. These tankers might be flying in 2060 so you better get it right..

The fine engineers that WERE once Boeing have long since been replaced by a group of Federal Welfare Program people who would rather chance jail time then earn a contract with a decent product. Oh, did I say "chance jail time", Darlene and her Boeing cohorts did time for Boinginating the original tanker fiasco, which is why our troops remain without a new tanker today.

Today's Non-Ethics Word: Boinginate
Pronunciation: Bo-ing-i-nate
Function: Verb
Etymology: North Western US & Boeing/Aeronovali/JADC Consortium
Date: 2008
Transitive verb
: to habitually lie, cheat, bribe or steal if you really, really want to win

They are both Quality products. If 50 years of performance from Boeing is not enough proof that we are getting the best product what is? How many Airbus tankers from the 60's are still flying? How many commercial Airbus planes from the 50's and 60's are still flying? So basically, we have no proof that an Airbus product will last more than a couple of decades, whereas, we DO know a Boeing product can last more than a half century i.e. B-53, KC-136.

You also seem to forget they were delivered LATE to Italy/Japan and is not the same tanker they will be using for the KC proposal

NORTHROP/GRUMMAN TO GET OUT GOOD,IT IS A WASTE OF THERE TIME AND MONEY….THEY HAVE A PLANE THAT IS ALREADY FLYING AND DOING THE JOB……THERE ARE MORE THEN THIS GOVT.TO SELL IT TO……

Yea, but by your cicular logic we'd never find out if anyone else had the quality because they'd never get a chance to build a plane because they don't have a plane that's 50 years old.

Just how stupid would one have to be to hand over strategic infrastructure committments to France during a period of greater than 10% unemployment?

There really needs to be a "stupid" button intead of a "thumbs up" or "thumbs Down" button next to a comment…..Now I know why so many people are unemployed in this country

Dick the KC767 you are referring to for Japan and Italy is not the tanker, repeat and read it slow, It is not the tanker that Boeing was going to submitt for the American KC proposal. Their KC tanker is different from the other tanker because they were going to use parts from the 767-200, -300 and -400 to build their Frankentanker. They have built at least 4 I think so far 2 to Japan and 2 to Iltaly both were several years LATE.

Gee I repeated my self

All were delivered LATE

You also seem to forget that the majority of this airframe is built over seas. oNly reason why is it not assemblied overseas is that Boeing Unions would not allow it. Remember part of that 700 Billion trade imbalance is contributed by Boeing

WRONG, The tanker version for the United States Air Force is still a paper aircraft. The tankers they built for Japan and Itality is not approved by the FAA for Production in the US. These tankers are no where near the tanker that Boeing was going to offer to the Air Force. They wanted to use a 767-200 Airframe then add -300 and -400 parts to it to make their tanker. This would require a lot of engineering just to get all these dash numbers to fit, thus increasing COST

While It's true that the NG version was originally chosen, you have to go back to the original RFP rules to see how Boeing was duped. Boeing actiually told the Airforce that they could deliver a tanker that could carry more fuel than the RFP was calling for and the Air Force said they did not want it. So when the airforce chose the NG model based on the fact that it could carry more fuel than the Boeing model, it showed an unfair playing field.

So then on the product support side of the house….the Air Force must carry spare parts for two types of planes.

I guess using the Boeing logic…..Europeans should only buy Air Bus……Boeing might want to be careful considering the size of the market they have in Europe….

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