Afghan IEDs Hammered Soviets

Afghan IEDs Hammered Soviets

When Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced creation of yet another counter-IED Pentagon task force, he was clearly frustrated with the inability of the military, the intelligence agencies and industry to come up with answers to the simple yet devastatingly effective roadside bomb as the IED war shifts from Iraq to Afghanistan.

The number of IED “incidents” in Afghanistan, defined as IEDs either found before detonating or actual IED attacks, have jumped from around 100 a month during 2006 to over 800 a month this past summer; in August IED incidents topped 1,000. In 2006, 41 U.S. and NATO troops were killed by IEDs. So far this year, 260 coalition troops have been killed by IEDs, according to the web site icasualties​.com that tracks troop casualties. IED casualties in Afghanistan don’t approach those of Iraq during the height of the fighting there when some days saw 100 IED incidents, but the trend lines are headed in the wrong direction. As more troops arrive, casualties are sure to increase.

Gates said one of the IED group’s first tasks was to scour records from the Soviet-Afghan war during the 1980s for potential lessons on the Mujaheddin’s use and the Soviet response to IEDs and mines. That war was marked by extreme brutality on the part of all combatants and both sides used land mines liberally. The Soviets ringed their strongpoints with thick mine belts that de-mining teams continue to clear to this day.


The Mujaheddin used mines and IEDs principally as an offensive weapon to bleed the Soviet occupiers, rather than to seize and defend territory. And bleed them they did: the Soviets lost 1,995 soldiers killed and 1,191 vehicles to mines and IEDs during their eight year long war. That’s just killed, certainly there were many thousands more wounded, as IEDs tend to maim more than they kill (the Soviets never produced a true accounting of their losses in Afghanistan, thought to be much higher than publicly available numbers). Those statistics come from the Army War College’s Lester Grau whose translations of Soviet general staff studies of the Afghan war, as well as Mujaheddin accounts of the fighting, are invaluable.

Like the U.S. military, the Soviet army in Afghanistan was road bound, relying on the country’s few roads to resupply scattered combat outposts. Much of the fighting was for control over these lines of communication. The roads linking the major Afghan towns such as Kabul, Kandahar, Herat, Khost and Jalalabad were the scene of countless bloody battles.

Also, like the U.S. military before the Iraq war, the Soviet army in Afghanistan was organized and trained for linear battles against NATO in Western Europe and was caught wholly unprepared for a war where the traditional separation between hot front lines and secure rear areas did not apply. Unprotected supply convoys presented easy targets for Mujaheddin fighters until the Soviets began to provide heavily armed and armored escort; even then they continued to suffer losses.

Access to Pakistan’s burgeoning arms market provided the Mujaheddin large quantities of Italian, British, U.S., Soviet and Chinese built anti-personnel and anti-tank mines. A wide variety of homemade mines were added to the Mujaheddin arsenal made principally from unexploded ordinance as the Soviets rained bombs and artillery indiscriminately on Afghan territory, a percentage of which failed to explode.

Grau’s translation of the Russian General Staff study of the war shows the Mujaheddin became extremely skilled in the use of mines and IEDs. As with the Iraqi insurgency, specialized mine and IED cells emerged among the Mujaheddin as artisans perfected their craft. He quotes a Mujaheddin commander who said they preferred very “powerful mines,” they would typically pull the explosives from a number of mines and place them in simple containers such as a cooking oil tin and then detonate the bombs remotely via command wire.

Bombs were placed at important crossroads, narrow mountain roads, bridges, road bends, in water drains, culverts, river fords, road exits from canyons and possible helicopter landing zones. The general staff study quotes an instruction sheet provided to Afghan bound Soviet soldiers: “Q: When and where it best to hit a convoy? A: At the most opportune site – at the entrance or exit to a tunnel, at a bridge, at a tight turn, or an up-grade or a down-grade, at a constricted road.”

On dirt roads, anti-tank mines were laid in vehicle tracks and along the shoulders. They strung mines and IEDs together with detonation cord — what U.S, troops call IED “daisy chains” — they stacked multiple mines in the same hole, surrounded anti-tank mines with anti-personnel mines and combined pressure plate mines with command wire detonation. Most IEDs were booby trapped to prevent easy clearance. One Mujaheddin commander described the method of stretching two metal wires across a paved road hooked to an electric battery and an explosive charge beneath the pavement; rubber tires wouldn’t set off the bomb but metal tracks of tanks and personnel carriers would close the circuit.

The Mujaheddin were masters of the “complex attack,” using mines and IEDs to initiate an ambush on Soviet convoys and patrols. Their favored tactic was to attack the head and tail of a convoy and then work over the vehicles trapped in between. They laid extensive anti-personnel minefields in complex terrain, such as the “green zones,” heavily farmed areas with thick vegetation, in the south around Kandahar and Helmand, where the Soviets often operated on foot. Numerous field reports recount the heavy casualties suffered by Soviet infantry trapped in extensive minefields swept by machinegun and rifle fire.

Route clearance was a high priority and the Soviets sent specialized combat engineer units to Afghanistan equipped with mine sniffing dogs (that often proved effective), electronic mine detectors (which reports said didn’t work very well) and tanks fitted with mine plows, rollers and flails. Opening roads to convoys became major combat operations that involved up to a battalion’s worth of combat power, including helicopter borne units and extensive close air support. The engineers were kept busy throughout the war and became more skilled as their experience increased: in 1980, engineers cleared 1,032 mines and IEDs; in 1986, they cleared 35,650 mines and IEDs. Yet, the Mujaheddin were highly adaptive and continually created new IED tactics that remained a step ahead of the Soviet learning curve.

The Soviets never sent to Afghanistan vehicles specially designed to survive mines and IEDs, such as the U.S. MRAP family of vehicles. Their flat bottomed personnel carriers were particularly vulnerable to under-hull blasts. The Soviet expediency was to ride on the top of their armored personnel carriers, rather than inside, preferring the risk of getting shot or blown off the vehicle to being burned up inside.

The Soviet experience in Afghanistan showed the all-too familiar irregular warfare adaptation cycle where IED and mine counter-measures are beaten by new tactics, resulting in new countermeasures and then new insurgent tactics in an endless churn. The best tactic the Soviets found for securing roads from Mujaheddin bomber cells was the manpower intensive practice of placing strings of outposts within sight of each other to keep roadways under constant observation. It was the only approach that worked (Ultimately, the U.S. military used the same approach in Iraq on heavily IED seeded bits of highway such as Route Irish, also known as the Airport Road). But it was only in very limited areas that they had the manpower to pull it off.

In Afghanistan, the U.S. military is trying the high-tech equivalent, dispatching drones and aerial surveillance to provide electronic eyes to keep vital stretches of highway under constant observation. However, Afghanistan is a big country and there will never be enough electronic eyes to provide the unblinking stare.

Iraq showed the best counter-IED approach was to gather human intelligence on bomb making cells, target the networks, and pay off insurgents who were lured into corrying out attacks by a steady pay from insurgent coffers. That same approach is probably the most promising in Afghanistan.

Sources include Lester Grau’s: The Bear Went Over the Mountain: Soviet Combat Tactics in Afghanistan; Afghan Guerrilla Warfare: In the Words of the Mujaheddin Fighters; and The Soviet-Afghan War by the Russian General Staff.

Join the Conversation

Two things that I am certain we are using — first is cut off the insurgents from supplies in Pakistan. An insurgent without ammo is not a threat. Any sophisticaed IED will require a sophisticated workshop — which we could hopefully target (as long as it is not in an area protected by a favored warlord). An IED will require explosives — which must be carried in from Pakistan. Our bombs are certainly more carefully applied and are more reliable — so fewer UXBs laying around to be used. The second thing is to have a better relationship with the locals — so they could secretly inform on the insurgents. Possibly for money.

Charles
LtCol, USAF (Ret)

News Flash… whatever.

We’ve spent SO MUCH Money on “local support” only to find out they are informing both sides. THey are caught between a rock and death…and are very skilled at lying since they have lived this nightmare for
decades… They are betting we will lose just as the Britts did, followed by the Russians, and now we’re there trying to get them to “cooperate” for money, medicine, radios, child care.…. Their hospitality and
openess lasts as long as the hummer is sitting there. Then they inform the Taliban on the conversations,
or they will die, (or worse, watch their family get slaughtered). It’s not as easy as cutting off the explosives from Pakistan.. Especially when the insurgents are being supported by Iran, Syria, Russia and even some of our so called Allies.….…. more follows:

How are we going to plug a 1500 mile border in a mountainous, porous terrain? With 100,000 troops? With drones?

Come on.

Respectfully

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

Who said plug a border? First, it is possible to cut a lot of the supply lines — we hear constantly about the scrappy insurgents winding thru narrow passes with a donkey loaded with supplies. A narrow pass can be watched, the 1500 mile border has about 99 percent of it impassible. Especially in winter. But the key is the logistics bases in Pakistan. Many IEDs depend on a guy in a well equipped workshop and those can be found and targetted. Roads are few and far between there.
And exaggerated statements (thanks Steven) like claims that our allies are helping the insurgents. Who — the Germans? French? Polish?
This is going to be tough but it is not yet time to cut and run for the border.

If it were that easy, it would have workd the first two or three times we tried it.
How do yo secure a border that we don’t own.…we depend on foreign nationals to do a job they don’t care to do, with twisted loyalties, religious views, and inner hatreds that only come out after we are gone. We are fighting a ghost enemy… There is NO HEARTS AND MINDS CAMPAIGN that is going to work. We burned out our “TRUST” a long long time ago in this region. And they have learned the lesson of Iraq when the Shiites were sprayed into submission and extinction by the helicopters we let Saddam have after Gulf War One. We have no credibility .…..anywhere.…much less at the local warlord level. We tell them to stop growing poppies and farm crops for the international market, but don’t follow up with fertilizer so something else would grow, or knowledge on how to grow them, or equipment to plant, care and harvest.…. I could go on for a week…and never clearly decypher the issues…
We’ve kicked a bee hive…
Steven M. Kuryla
CWO®, USA
Intelligence

This is a fools errand. Read a little history before you engage in all this tough talk. At the very least, explain what the ultimate goal is. To stop terrorism? To make a stable government in Afghanistan? Hey I wish everyone could have a pony. But it ain’t gonna happen.

All these armchair generals calling everyone else a coward for not wanting to die or be maimed for no articulated reason is beyond the pale.

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

There are SEVERAL Agricultural Deployment Teams (ADTs) headed to A-stan. You are correct about the hearts and minds…most of the tribes just want both the US and Taliban gone, but the Taliban will slaughter them if they don’t cooperate. You have to somehow instill in them that they can fight back and win, once that is done and they fight back like it happened in Iraq, then and only then can US forces leave. Otherwise we need to leave now…that’s not a defeatist attitude, but you can’t MAKE someone have testicular fortitude you have to show them.

Daniel — First, thanks for your calm and articulate replies — so many people here just spout rants. Your replies are thought provoking — I may not always agree but you have good points.

Your comment about the goal is a good one. As I have said here before, we are NOT gonna turn Afghanistan into a small version of small town America. They are not gonna be driving Civics to soccer practice. We have to deal with Afghanistan as it is — brutal, isolated, ignorant, and happy to be that way. Who knows what the goal of the generals is — hopefully something like “keep the place under control until we can get the heck out of here”. Their nightmare is the “helicopters off of the roof of the embassy” outcome. They probably regard Afghanistan as a giant REFORGER — where all of the allies come together for the best exercise ever invented.

Stop terrorism? Not the goal — it is too widely distributed. Terrorists are now found in Wisconsin and we can’t afford to invade Wisconsin.

Make a stable gov’t in Afghanistan? Not gonna happen, they do not understand the concept. Make a number of stable fiefdoms in Afghanistan — that can be done.

part 2
But the heart of the original article (can we return to that??) is the contention that the Soviet Afghan experience is a good indicator of what ours is/will be. I disagree, and from a long study of history. The Soviets came in over the western border and Pakistan on the east was not their ally. They could not close any routes into Afghanistan from Pakistan, and did not have cooperation from the Pakistanis. For us, Pakistan is somewhat of an ally and they are doing something to close the border from their side. At the same time we are closing the border on our side.

The insurgents cannot line any vehicle tracks with mines if they can’t get mines into the country. Mines can be simple but the good ones are big, heavy, and expensive. They can’t run down to Walmart and buy mines, they gotta get them in over the mountains. That flow we can slow down. The Soviets had us pumping logistics in from the west and they could not match our budget.

We have the Russians watching the border on the west and some cooperation from the Pakistanis on the east. We can slow the supplies to the bad guys to a trickle and that could give us a lot of breathing room.

Ok, the so called “exaggerated statements” about our Allies helping them.…..
Where do you think Saddam got all the “highly close toleranced” pipes, control mechanisms etc. for his Nuclear Program? France and Germany… Where is IRAN getting theirs? Some places because they don’t have the manufacturing capability.….or the engineers. Do you really think anyone outside Afghanistan is looking at the impact of what they are selling? The EU is as much a part of the problem as Syria, Iran, and the fanatical Imams.… THis is not a singular pie with no pieces..
As for plugging a 1500 mile border… not going to happen. I lived in Berlin for a long time, and even putting up a wall like that did not work.. it is not the answer. Same as with the U.S. southern border. Especially when you take into consideration the terrain, elevation, and number of people that travel across those provicial areas. Not all of them use donkeys.. Toyota pickup trucks are the preferred method of transport…
((more follows)

As for bomb makers “needing a well equipped” shop.…… I don’t know WHERE that idea came from.
They are teaching 10 year olds how to make IEDS with a battery powered soldering gun, and/or super glue,
and or tape, goat intestines, ANYTHING that will make contacts stay in place long enough for the power surve to detonate the warhead or whatever the IED is made of. Make it work is the rant! This is the “third world” survival technique that history has shown us WORKS against multi-million dollar cruise missles, UAVs (they are not DRONES)… and throw away cell phones and beepers. You can make an IED sitting in a dirt pile drinking tea and chewing Khaat! That is how it’s done, and it is highly effective. The only change has been the influence of the devices they are detonating.… Focused charges instead of just mortar rounds, or old artillery shells. There are thousands of different builders as well as types of IEDs that are used… Once Iran got involved, the sophistication of the actual explosive gained momentum, but the planting, detonation devices, and methods are pretty much the same… (more follows)

As far as getting things into the country to use… there are more ways than just putting them in a truck and driving down a road to a checkpoint. We’ve got hard evidence of woman carrying parts under their Berkas… some intentionally, some forces so that their children would not be slaughtered. There have been numerous accounts of hidden compartments. One guy was caught with a dead goat in the back of his car, supposedly going home to finish cutting it up and have it for a feast… The carcass was loaded with explosives.…

Lessons from CUSTOMS Agents go a long way in figuring out how things are smuggled into the country. Can we mitigate this? Hell yes. Can we STOP IT? Hell no. This entire war is about REAL ESTATE… And now the U.S. has a PINCER around IRAN, and the oil wells of the Middle East. Let’s be honest here. This is not about liberating a poor subverted peoples. The Taliban was a HUGE reason we could use to win popular support to go in.… And now that we are in there, (up unitl our government changed) there was no intention of ever leaving. You don’t commit that much money and effort to building compounds and deploying equipment, troops,communications infrastructure to a place you are only going to be staying for a short time…
.…… Ok, I“m done. Just a quick question as I am new to this site… how many of you making comments have actually been there? Just wondering..don’t read anything sinister into it…
Respectfully,
Steve Kuryla
CWO®, USA
Intelligence

I’ve not been there in a few years but there are a few observations I’d like to make nonetheless.

1. At least in 2005 the U.S. military was still doing lots of stupid stuff — and I doubt that has changed much. Our military is so populated by people who have been indoctrinated into the U.S. military way of doing things that they have trouble even comprehending that their perspective may be cockeyed. So you have very bright people who are fighting against a force that they’ve still not learned how to fight. Oh, and the ROE’s are too inflexible so you’re not allowed to do the smart thing.

2. It’s a cost/benefit ratio at every village and tribe. If you raise the cost of doing business with the Taliban to too high a level the Taliban will not be tolerated. If you effectively pay people to cooperate with the Taliban — the Taliban will be there forever. And we DO pay the Taliban (protection money to let our convoys pass) — albeit indirectly.

3. If you want to win in Afghanistan I think you have to have a Special Forces mentality throughout all your forces — and stop being polite when it doesn’t serve your purposes. Teach the ANA — and I mean teaching the the 3 R’s as well as the basics of fighting. Do what works and if it doesn’t work — change. And allow the ability to change at the local level. Every single village is different and every tribe is different — and if you lock us into the same approach with them all I guarantee you we will be doing the stupid thing everywhere.

FWIW from someone who is not a military genius.

Thank you Mr. Houston and thank you also for not riffing off my last angry post.

I just see people all around me losing their homes and insurance and jobs and have a hard time understanding why we drafted an Iraqi constitution that allows Iraqis to have free health care, but our own citizens and veterans are treated like animals. Our own brothers and sisters in America are being turned away at the Hospitals because they cannot pay their medical bills. Banks take homes away from people who bailed them out.

It is disgusting.

I wish we would stop taking care of the Iraqis and the Afghanis while we let the Americans suffer.

Most respectfully,

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

The readers have addressed many “Talking Points” in their review’s.

The SecOfDef has been doing his “Homework” and continues to direct Intel Assets to confirm and verify “Lessons Learned” from Past and Present Military scenarios.

The USMC used LIC / UW interface methods with the Locals successfully as did the Brits in their AO’s in Iraq.

The lesson’s as I see them here are to :

(1) Incorporate Local Militia / Para-Military / G-Forces in the In-Country Battle Scheme.
(2) Institute Military Multi-Disciplines towards the common Objectives and STRAT / TAC Goals.
(3) Use Military Civil Affairs Cadre to establish a core “Working” Civil Government
(4) Establish a realistic “Transition Date” for Release of Occupational Military of Foreign Allied & US Forces.

The former Soviet Military experience has a wealth of knowledge concerning their military campaigns — use their experience and lessons to our advantage at “boot” level.

They learned that a protracted Conventional Offensive and “Build Up” worked contrary to military objectives.

I believe that a multidisciplinary approach that includes Contemporary Stand Alone Technology and Ground Forces is the Key in this question.

Using the “Palace Guard” types as in a Conventional Setting would be two steps back in this Theater of War.

ONE OF TWO
I spent 20 months in Afghanistan – also spent 24 months in Vietnam (66–68) (Okay, I’m “old”). So during my life I was witness to two insurgencies.

Having said that I’ll immediately add I do NOT have “solution” for Afghanistan or stopping terror. Frankly, I fear terrorists will be will us essentially forever. Because, — and I know this is not PC — I believe the war is driven by Islamic extremism. Not merely Taliban or Al’Qaida (this spelling provided by Ahmed Rashid) but around the world extremism.

AND my real coal-miner’s canary is my Kuwait-born, Syrian nation wife who lived her 40+ yrs (until SEP09) in Muslim nations. (Add Yemen) She told me, “They want your land and will wage war on you forever because it is in their book” (that’s a quote).

ANY you have 40 years living with Muslims? If you do I’ll listen to your opinion, until then I’ll believe her, “ … it is in their book”.

TWO of TWO A few months ago the Economist Magazine said a withdrawal from Afghanistan would “embolden” our enemies. I fully believe that too. The bad guys are watching Afghanistan. Any sign of weakness is encouragement to them. They do not have a goal to ‘pull out’ by 2011 but eventual elimination of infidels everywhere and they have forever to accomplish this.

Like I said, I don’t have to solution, but do agree that many fighting us would quit if they had something to turn to – herding sheep, fixing cars, building highways, making babies – something.

But to the hard-core even death is defeat, but martyrdom and the gateway to paradise. We have our noses pressed against one nation and are failing to see the world problem. Need guys above my pay grade to find a way to separate them.

OKAY – a bit simplistic, but I think you get my drift.

two of two adder “even death is NOT defeat” Hey, I’m not an expert at this

If yoiu get familiar with the Koran you’ll see that tjm is right on the money. this is a religious war against the Infidels (us, for the uninformed) and it is going to last a long time. R$adical Islam is really fundamentalist Islam so trying to get them to “chang ideas” that are written “in their book” will be nigh on impossible. As you can see from past terrorist asctions in Spain, US and UK, poverty, isolation and lack of education have little to do with their motives, which are largely religious in nature. Read up on what is in the Koran, Robert Sp[encer is a good place to start.

Hey, we have no one to blame but our Govt. and thier lap dog generals for all of this. Because we did not like the Russians in the 80’s we sent in SPECOPS personnel to teach them how to do this. We cannot control thier supply lines when we cant even control all the illegal weapons — drugs — immigrants coming into our own country. We cant win thier hearts and minds of others when there is so much hatred and distrust here in the U.S. of our own government. They will never fully trust us because we walked out and left them before.
An it doesn’t take a workshop to build an I.E.D., give me a metal scrap heap and I’ll make you all the bombs you need. (finely granulated/ powdered aluminum and rust mixed 50 50, makes a heck of a bang), a piece of wood, a nail, and a rifle cartridge with the projectile removed is all the detonator you need a lot of the time. You would be supprised what you can do with those model rocket kits you can buy at toy stores. cap rolls are another way of detonating homemade explosives because they have such a high content of lead styphnate and tetracine in them, as do many commercial fire works.

Continued: What I’m getting at is we cant win this at all. There is no uniform to define the enemy we are fighting over there, we know right now that there are taliban in thier military and police forces we are training who are leaking info to them. But we can make a deciseive dent in them by fighting fire with fire instead of paper(money). Give complete control to SPECOPS, let them cordinate the plans and deploy the conventional forces. Generals dont adapt very well, they are too driven by the manual. problem with that is that the manual is available on the web. If you know how you enemy is trained and how they will react then you can easily defeat them with smaller numbers. That is how specops operate and how the trained these guys to do it during the 80’s. Get in — do the deed — and get the heck out. The original intent was to kill the terrorist, why did they ever shift to win thier hearts and minds when it is proven that it never has worked.

77705256
lot’s of really good insight and information from most bloggers’.
How can I earn a living to support myself and my family and who provides the most security? This is the real question! Afg is a poor country with few if any resources other than history and poppie power. AQ/Taliban pay the most and reward your family in case of your death. Win — win for the poor man/woman without a job or education. The Afghan government if you can call it such is very corrupt more so than Iraq. Wow! SF/SOG and conventional forces with “Complete” State Department backing– bucks and manpower. Pay em well and train em up young and we may be out of there in 10 or 20 years if we can protect them sufficiently.

in 1 year nothing changes, we best get the hell outta there..hearts and minds don’t work, especially if one is gonna LOSE his head for co-operating..

damn ur right…they are outbirthing indig euro pops. and will one day hold power, they riot, the PC attitude of the west will be our undoing..all those good social programs they suck up and bleed host countries..yes, radical islam is more dangerous than ww2 nazi’s..due to globalization, proliferation of WMD’s..

When is some bright young man going to invent/promote an individual explosives sniffer;to be arrayed in front of invidual infantrymen?? Seems like parts per million technology could be employed to smell out ied’s well in advance.

maj den

HE KNOWS WHERE THESE “IED” COMES FROM,WHAT HAS HE DONE ABOUT THEM “NOTHING”.…NOW HE WANTS OUR CIA AND THE MILITARY INTELLIGENCE TO STOP IT,WHY.…..WHEN THEY DO, HE AND HIS “BOSS” BRINGS OUR GOOD PEOPLE UP ON CHARGES PUTS THEM IN A MILITARY COURT AND THESE BAD PEOPLE WE ARE THERE TO KILL,GIVES THEM A CHANCE TO GO TO NYC AND GET A SO CALL FAIR TRIAL .…..HE IS NOT FIT TO BE THERE ANY MORE.……

Hey all you military “geniuses” … This ‘War’ was over in Dec 2001!!! Wake Up!!! Lets STOP wasting money we DON’T have!!!

Why don’t we use satelites that have the ability to detect heat from the human body to watch over sensitive areas. If we can read a licence plate from outer space we certainly should be able to observe someone placing a IED. This all could be done automatically whice could alert someone to pay attention to this activity.

Satellites don’t behave like the ones in Enemy of the State…can’t do the type of persistent surveillance that you are suggesting

Come on mate, if it was that simple don’t you think it would have been done agaes ago. And by the way, just what do you think an IED smells like? Do you think they all have the same smell, like an Iraqi IED smell distinctly different from an A-Ghan one?. By the time you put your nose in the hole with the IED to take a wiff, its a bit late don’t you think?. Stick to smelling under your armpits

Because IED’s come in a variety of forms utilizing a variety of explosive materials ranging from military weapons-grade to industrial and agricultural chemicals to household chemicals… et al.

so you just work out ied sniffers for a-stan and irak.

and why dont you go milk yer bike mate.

den

hum maybe the russians are paying us back

I was wondering how long it would be until someone brought up the “religious aspect” of this entire conflict.
“Hasbeen”… no offense, but everything you mentioned has a distinctive WESTERN SLANT to it. You have to understand the mentality of the people there. “TJM” has nailed it on the head. They are MUSLIM, and it’s IN THE BOOK! Until you understand the Muslim mentality, ((they have nothing to look forward to, nothing to live for, and WANT to die)) you won’t “GET IT!” I recommend watching “YouTube” ” What the West needs to know about Islam”… very informative. Nuff said.
Steven M. Kuryla
CWO®, USA
Intelligence Regiment

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