Beating The Low Signature Enemy

Beating The Low Signature Enemy

When the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) battled Hezbollah to basically a draw in southern Lebanon in summer 2006, one thing that really stymied the IDF was what Israeli Brig. Gen. Itai Brun called Hezbollah’s “strategy of disappearance”: Hezbollah fighters set up command posts and arms stores in civilian buildings; launched rockets from near mosques and schools; used “low signature” weapons, such as mortars, anti-tank missiles and shoulder launched surface-to-air missiles; and spent years building extensive below ground fortifications including a maze of tunnels and bunkers.

The IDF, which had prepped for high-intensity battle against Syrian tank armies, was unprepared for an asymmetric, low-signature enemy that refused to stand in the open and smile for the electronic eyes on overhead drones and aircraft and thermal sights on Merkava main battle tanks. The IDF took fairly heavy casualties trying to root out dug-in Hezbollah combat cells and never did stop the rain of rockets fired from southern Lebanon into Israeli towns.

The challenge is how to compel the low-signature enemy to emit a detectable signal, to raise his signature level. According to a draft paper passed along to DOD Buzz, the Israelis, and certain parts of the U.S. military, are exploring a concept called “distributed maneuver,” a potentially promising approach that could force the “hybrid” enemy to breach the detection threshold so that he can be targeted and dispatched. The paper, a joint Israeli-U.S. effort, was authored by strategist Frank Hoffman, who now works in the Office of the Naval Secretary.


The paper defines the hybrid threat as enemies that pull from the “whole menu of tactics and technologies and blend them in innovative ways,” constantly shifting between conventional and irregular forms of fighting to wrong-foot opponents. The hybrid threat will choose as a battlefield what the Israelis term a “saturated environment”: “a combination of complex or urbanized terrain, large numbers of noncombatants and an intense information environment.” An added layer is an enemy that skillfully uses anti-tank rockets and missiles and mines and IEDs to win the mobility/counter-mobility battle.

Again, the feature that makes this enemy so difficult to encounter is its low signature. The insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan are good examples of an enemy that uses the local population to hide its signature; the only signature typically being the IED detonation. Hezbollah fighters utilized terrain and civilian populations to reduce their signature level.

According to the draft paper, distributed maneuver is the “fluid maneuver of operational or tactical units separated beyond the limits of direct and mutual support,” yet acting in unison to attack the enemy across a very large battlefield and penetrate deep into the enemy’s territory. Using a combination of rapidly moving ground and air forces, and direct and indirect fires, deep maneuver “serves to isolate the adversary from forms of support, negates his ability to shift resources or react in a decisive manner.” By striking deep into the opponent’s center of gravity, wherever or whatever that might be, distributed maneuver forces the hybrid threat to react, in essence, to move or fire, and thus raise his signature level, thus negating the “disappearing tactics.”

The ideal end state is to produce a series of actions that “creates for the enemy a rapidly deteriorating, cascading effect, shattering his cohesion”; an operational concept familiar to those who followed the “maneuver warfare” school that was popular in the 1980s.

The distributed maneuver concept requires:

• Operational or tactical combined arms teams
• Parallel operations across the depth and breadth of the battlefield
• C2 agility – enable lower echelons to respond rapidly
• Fast paced, interdependent combined arms maneuver capable of penetrating deep into enemy territory
• Compressed sensor-shooter links and precision fires
• Ability to supply ground forces without exposing oneself to an enemy’s IED kill zones.

The paper uses as an operational vignette an Israeli thrust into southern Lebanon: an IDF-Hezbollah round two if you will. Hezbollah is entrenched in both urban and mountainous terrain and in densely populated areas and all roads in are seeded with IEDs and EFPs. The IDF strikes deep with heliborne troops to the Litani River, while distributed armored shock groups simultaneously move rapidly into southern Lebanon, avoiding roads and fixed defenses, aiming for Hezbollah’s command nodes, rocket forces and supply lines.

In essence, the IDF conducts an operational level “swarming” of Hezbollah defenses, instead of the plodding attack along predictable lines of advance by massed armored formations as happened in the 2006 war, and forces Hezbollah fighters to react and expose themselves to strikes.

One of the biggest challenges to effectively carrying out distributed maneuver, the paper says, is generating “general-purpose forces capable of operating independently at increasingly lower echelons.” A primacy is also placed on the ability of units to learn and pass information to accelerate learning and adaptation. It’s certainly an interesting concept and merits further exploration and we’ll continue to look into it as more information becomes available.

Join the Conversation

Good Afternoon Folks,

The tactical problems here are huge. The first of course which isn’t even mentioned in the article is the amount of collateral damage you are willing to take both in lives and property.

Combat soldiers are trained to move into an area kill any thing moving and trash the place, the burn it to the ground. That’s the bottom line nature of war. In recent memory Fallugah is a good example of how combat troops handle and urban environment.

Secondly unless you can force the enemy into a siege situation the enemy who has had the time to plan the operation will win.

Lastly a combat unit that attempts this kind of combat quite often has heavy blue on blue. A better way is to find and identify enemy units. isolate and contain them and the use a civil authority (trained Police) to engage the hostels.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Distributed warfare does not really involve ‘general’ combat soldiers…this is meant for many small units of highly trained special forces ‘A’ teams. This is a completely legitimate concept and the United States, as a result of its counter-insurgency efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, is well prepared to carry it out given the growth and combat experience of SO forces in recent years. Collateral damage is really not an issue for special forces like it is for an infantry unit for example. It’s not like they are going to be calling in JDAM strikes to clear out houses or rolling Abrams through the streets blowing a hole through every wall that might have an insurgent behind it. Not only is the concept of distributed warfare a potentially very effective means of fighting a well dug in insurgency, especially by reducing the amount of collateral damage compared to how we used to fight counter-insurgencies, but it is it not cost prohibitive and could be sustained indefinitely.

Wrong Alex. The USMC has conducted experiments with whats called Distributed Operations as early as 1999 at the Marine Corps Combat Center, 29 Palms. Why it has reared its ugly head again is beyond me but it was found at that time that while you are able to bring supporting fires to bear quite effectively, you can also have your forces destroyed in a piecemeal fashion. I don’t get it but I’d luv to see the classified findings on new studies on the concept.

Oh and for those that truly believe this concept is effective I have one word.…Ganjgal. Small units can be destroyed fairly easily. Unless we have enough assets to provide supporting fires to dozens of units simultaneously then you will have trouble. The USMC is moving toward making Companies instead of Battalions units of maneu­ver.

My biggest fear is that we’re repeating FCS … just with Infantry instead of armor. Our shield will be fires instead of steel while information will be our sword. Unless the Air Force and Naval Air are up to the job…unless Artillery is given many more guns…then this will be bloody.

Unfortunately, AUSA’s Institute of Land Warfare does not have the Land Warfare paper online to download a thesis paper on the stealth tactics of our future enemies. The paper went on to describe how our future enemies would hide amongst the masses, through complex terrain and of course through camoflauge. Gone would be the normal identifiers of a state army where uniforms would be easily recognizable. The use of cargo ships holding anti-ship or ballistic missiles would make its appearance on the battlefield. It would be almost as if the CIA or KGB of old had massive armies that had gone into hiding.

And for the kicker: this was written I believe in 1998 or so. We need to revisit the smart scholars who saw the future years ago and didn’t pay attention then, but must do so now.

It seems like I’ve sidetracked the discussion, but I think it’s highly relevant to Greg’s discussion of “low signature enemies.”

Another one word answer. Khe Sanh. We can build garrisons but all we’re doing is setting ourselves up to be hit at a time and place of the enemies choosing. History is cruel to those that seek to establish bases in “bad guy” land while the bad guys are still there. We fought the Vietnamese on our terms and it was still a bloody affair. Technically the battle was a victory but if you examine the resources required and then think about the kind of support small units scattered over a battle field would need…now you get an idea of why I think this is a non-starter.

Even Special Ops Units run the risk of being destroyed. Recommended reading. “The Lone Survivor”.

***We have to pick the time and place for battle.***

That is key. We have to figure out ways to ambush the enemy instead of letting them do it to us.

Good Evening Folks,

Just to change the subject since this one is going no where.

I got a confirmation on something that I got yesterday that may be of some interest.

Russia has inked a $2.6 billion deal with Vietnam to buy six(6) new Project 636 Kilos, at a production rate of one a year, and an additional 12 Su-30Mk2’s for a total of now of 20 Su.-30MK2’s in the VAF. No acquisition rate was given for the Su.-30MK2’s or if they will be built in India or not. Also in the deal is an undisclosed amount of ground equipment.

The deal maker for Russia all of the get to construct of $11 Billion dollars for a nuclear power plant in Vietnam.

So lets see we have Vietnam getting a nuclear reactor, four more Kilos, the China currently have 2 operable, although China does have four, currently 2 are down for repair that only can be done in Russia and they have eight on order, but the order is on hold.

How long before Vietnam becomes another Iran? Will Russia help Vietnam like China did Pakistan get the bomb? How about SRBM’s, MRBM’s and LRBM’s, will they be in the next Russian/Vietnam arms deal? How long before there is a deadly confrontation in the South China Sea or along their common land border between China and Vietnam?

China is still smarting from 1979 and Vietnam is still smarting from 1988. The score is 1 to 1. When and where will game three be?

My primary source has mentions other things on this topic but until I can confirm that from a second source that is more reliable and can give to Colin if he asks I will keep it to myself.

How long will the peace hold on the Amur River? Is France shopping arms to Vietnam now that Russia has backed out of the LSD deal?

This is early Christmas for the neo-antebellum think tanks, who says there is no Santa Clause. Finally some real issues on the table, red meat for the tanker guys/gals. Merry Christmas, from the Liberals.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

It looks like we’ve been doing that already, but the Taliban just keeps setting up shop elsewhere. They have a lot of mobility, weapons caches, and friendly locals to do so.

I tend to agree with you more than not, but really, what business is it of yours to change the subject?

Have a Merry Christmas, in any case.

I read this article and the one thing that keeps popping into my mind is “Where the hell is the HUMINT?”

You want to “increase the signature” of your opponent who hides amongst the population, well, dammit TALK to the people! The rest of this crap is just talking about reinventing the blitzkrieg wheel.

Obviously the issue of ‘low signature enemies’ is a huge one, especially in a setting such as Afghanistan.

What are the downfalls of spreading our selves less thinly in Afghanistan? Instead of having many small, relatively remote and poorly equipped bases in Afghanistan, why don’t we isolate certain areas that are crucial to the Taliban’s center of gravity, and set up larger, better equipped bases in such areas. This would ideally evoke attacks directly on our bases from the Taliban, which would be easier to locate, combat, and suppress. The idea would be to make them fight on our terms a little bit more.

When Cowards hide behind women and children their will be collateral damage. is anyone concerned taht our troops are dying to protect these targets. if amnesty internationla really wants to do their ‘job’ let them complain and at least tell everyone that the jihadist are lying about how theri women are dying to protect them from being shot at and cowering in a corner from our troops.

Ya know if we really want to get historical with this concept then the first US practitioners of this were the Airborne Forces back in WW2. They call it “Little Groups of Paratroopers” and they even train in anticipation of there forces being scattered. Difference is, they plan on linking up again. If the Israeli’s are crazy enough to try this then they can rest assured that Hezbollah will come up with a counter. The invasion into Lebanon suffered because they lost the ability to conduct a properly organized combined arms assault on the objective. The armor struck without infantry, leaving them vulnerable to anti-tank teams the terrorist sent out. How can such a small air force support dozens of units engaged simultaneously with the enemy? Hezbollah has shown the ability to launch coordinated attacks. This would be simplicity itself for them to pinpoint a couple of units and to take hostages. They’re cruising for a real bad bruising.

I was glad to see someone mention “Lone Survivor”. It goes to show just how much damage one of our small units can inflict on our foes even with relatively little support. With good command, control, intel, etc. you can have these small units support each other when needed and cause huge problems for the Bad Guys.

I like the concept. I think it is pushing things in the right direction. Small mobile units with substantially independent but constantly coordinating actions can wreak havoc on most of our enemies. We can get our soldiers to start thinking and acting like the SF types if we’ll just start turning them loose with the right ideas.

However, I have concern that our command structure will not be happy with the idea — gives up a lot of centralized control and puts a lot of faith in our soldiers. We’d also have to re-organize to implement this more effectively — even companies may be too large. Logistics could be nightmarish…

Byron

As usual you try to insult us conservatives without any reason or support. We want the enemy to be defeated at least as much as you do. Are you implying that we don’t?

Good Evening Folks,

Conservatives have had eight years to catch bin Laden who after all is the one that attacked the United States in the first place, but didn’t. Instead they have pressured a ideologically driven agenda that has made us the feared but laughing stock of the world.

It appears that the rest of the world thinks that the US really doesn’t want to catch bin Laden or put down al Qaeda, the existence of both serves the eco-imperialistic goals of American neo-antebellum winger think thanks.

These wars were started by the best and the brightest who served an rather inept administration and American policy was made by Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith who when Iraq and Afghanistan went into the crapper they did what conservative alway have done, run away.

These neo-antebellum conservative think tanks and consulting groups need to be closed and our Government has to be deconservified. Its time that elected legislator’s take responsibility instead of taking cash bribes from the special interest. Not unlike getting the Nazis out of the German Government after WWII. The Congress and the President should determine when and where to go to war not a group of self interest opportunists.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

From today’s LA Times:

“Most Christians fled Baghdad in 2006 and ‘07 at the height of the sectarian violence when Islamic militants branded them U.S. collaborators, attacked their churches and gave them an ultimatum to either convert to Islam or pay a religious tax. A year ago, some returned triumphantly to their neighborhoods.

But now they again are alarmed by the security situation in the city and nervous about drawing attention to themselves.

“We don’t have the Christmas spirit like we did before,” George Judo said of his family’s holiday dinner. “We hoped to do more than this but the explosions, assassinations and bad security prevent us from having a normal everyday life and celebrating Christmas in a normal way.”

Before the 2003 U.S.-led invasion, Judo said, his wife and children would attend Midnight Mass and then return for dinner. Now, Judo says, he doesn’t feel that it is safe to go to Mass even in the late afternoon.

Nevertheless, he said, he still planned to attend Christmas morning services today.

“Maybe if things were normal I could take my family to a park and then to a restaurant. Unfortunately, I am too worried to do these things,” Judo said.”

So this is the result of the neocon’s script, which we were not privy to, but instead were fed stories about WMDs. There were no WMDs. Just a desire to control the oil revenues from some of the last remaining wells in the world. The military is then asked to oblige them by putting helmets and flak jackets on these “think tank fellows” and flying them around in Pave Hawks in staged PR tours, which results in a slightly nauseous conservative blogger who now thinks he is an “expert” in the region.

The men and women in uniform are left to do the hard jobs while “think tankers” blog their way to freedom and call for wars they have no stomach for personally.

If only the neocons would have to live with the results of their script rather than hide behind walls of faux universities rewriting history.

Daniel Russ
Civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup​.com

That said, Merry Christmas to the men and women in uniform, wherever you are. may you return home soon, safe, and happy.

And then the UFOs picked up the snipers that killed JFK right Byron? Seriously your beginning to sound like a conspiracy theory nutjob who’s only grasp of modern history comes from liberal blogs.

And enough with you adding neo-antebellum to everything you hate. None of these think tanks have articles saying “Why we should reintroduce slavery.”

Good Afternoon Daniel,

I think you have the idea right Daniel. Big defense is going into the crapper and the industry knows it. The era of big spending projects that have nothing to do with the war(s) at had is fading rather quickly.

Companies like Boeing will be OK, they have a good non military business and the equity pyrates like BAE and Den. Dynamics, that already have got their returns on investment that can spin off the losers and sell them to the speculators. Lockheed, NG, Raytheon though might, will likely find themselves in bankruptcy court, will they be to big to fail, like Government Motors? Stay tuned.

There simply is no rational supportable arguments that can made to support the F-35, or projects like the canceled F-22 or FCS or the DDX that appears to be limited to three ships and others. The past eight years has completely changed the way wars will be fought and between whom.

The attack a couple of days ago by five Reapers in Pakistan/Afghanistan that scored 13 Taliban of the leadership I think is an induction of how wars with non state entities will be conducted in the future, over the horizon, quickly, sending a very clear message and with very little to no collateral damage to either property (we bomb it, we buy it) or civilian lives.

The 03 run to Bagdad was the end of an era in ground warfare.

The era of nation states fighting each other in major wars is over, at least for a while. To pick a fight with the US by any country would be state suicide. Nuclear weapons have become irreverent, have been since the ’50’s really, as having any role in combat, they are only terror weapons that if upon examination are not all that threatening. The $5.5 to $10 trillion that the US has spent on nuc’s since the end of WW II has been to naught. It’s time to end the MADNESS.

If you put combat power on a scale of 1–100 with the US being 100 the second level would be Russia and Israel in the high 30’s, India, France, Japan, South Korea, UK, Germany, Ukraine and Brazil in the mid 20’s, with China a notch below them. Sleepers that could buy there way into becoming a regional power of course would be Vietnam and Pakistan.

I find it of interest that the antebellum wingers has ignored Russia and its changing developing defensive strategy especially putting Project 885 back into production after a 20 year nap. But again these folks read and only believe their own fantasy propaganda that supports the needs of their paying customers.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

I’ve tried to stay out of politics here, but uninformed rants of some on this site have already ruined it. One need only look at Blue State shortcomings that caused the current recession to illustrate who has their stuff together, and who is clueless.

* Defense industries retain healthy manufacturing businesses the U.S. and world can rely on. Democratic unions have ruined most others by raising costs.
* Real estate speculation and unhampered immigration in Blue States have caused wage inflation and failed loans on one end and wage deflation and excess government babysitting on the other, leaving Blue States with too many income and property taxes paid by the wealthier group to subsidize the poorer group who could never afford their overpriced half million to million dollar homes.
* Blue State lawyer litigation has risen workman’s comp and medical costs/malpractice insurance to stupid levels.
* Historical usage of WMD by Saddam Hussein and FBI interviews of him indicate that WMD concerns were reasonable and reinforced by Iraq to prevent invasion. Yet some would use there actual absence to discount WMD threats allowing other’s like Iran to build them unobstructed to hand over to terrorists for actual use

Georgia and Texas Lockheed employees have plenty of work ahead on the C-130J, F-35, and C-5M. NG will make UAS, the LCS, and future bombers. BAE and Raytheon will thrive. Can the same be said for GM, Chrysler, steel industries, other unionized manufacturing, or the service industries if they, too, go heavy union?

Democrats whine about neo-conservatives, but conservatives are the sole workforce keeping our nation’s economic health intact. That is until Democrats rob Peter to pay Paul…thus assurring Paul’s votes and economic Robin Hoodism that will simply send more businesses and capital overseas.

Good Evening Cole,

Stay out of the politics, come on Cole, you know as well as I do that wars and defense are politics, or the failure there of which ever is you point of view. The money passed by lobbyists and the antebellum winger think tanks on the behalf of manufactures and vested interest to politicians could buy several small counties.

Good try, but no. The weapon systems/platforms you mention are all subect to cancellation or competition from foreign sources ex. the C-130J vs. A-400M, the F-35, 100 canceled this year future cancelations will happen, the C-5M modernizations are in process when the 96th. is done the program is over.

Lockheed owns to many plants and has to many people to pay, after what ever is left of the F-35, there is nothing left in the pipe line. Unless Lockheed Martin can buy the dying F/A-18, F-15 E/F, and F-16D production lines from Boeing which will just prolong the agony, they are dead, they are in deep yogurt Cole and the vultures of Wall Street will pick ‘em apart to the bone.

Future bombers? I guess nobody got the word to you Cole the B-3 was canceled, last Spring, I guess you were still in agony over the FCS to notice. What Lt. General Deptula, said last week was just speculation. It is unlikely that any more manned bomber platforms will ever be built, a Medium 15–20 ton pay load, twin engine unmanned platform, might be in the works by the end of the next decade. It’s still 2009.

Bashing unions is just a cheap way to change the subject Cole, I would like to think better of you. By the way as a business owner I defeated unions in elections three times. I cheated I payed more and had better benefit packages. The problems of the NG shipyards in the Gulf are the result of “open Shop”.

We have several hundreds of former NG workers out here in San Diego where they are working for a Unionized ship yards and none, I say again none, are offering to go back to work in the Gulf and the non union yards. Blue states? Come on Cole you are better then that. I know you have no factual information to back up what you are saying, but blue states?

Raytheon took a big hit with the cancellation of the F-22. They are trying to make up for it with the SM-3 and Patriot 3 Systems mainly for export, but its not looking good and they are already searching for buyers for some of there divisions.

Saddam never had any WMD’s never said he had any WMD’s and any thoughts other wide are just sugar plumb winger dreams. So go down stairs to the kitchen and have a piece of yellow cake and forget about it.

NG ship yards in the Gulf are on administrative hold till NG can solve its problems, there is a strong likelihood that they will build none of the LCS’s. NG is not going to pay the bill making 100–200 ton Patrol Boats sold mostly to Gulf states and Italy.

When wars end defense budgets are cut, troop levels are reduced and something about a peace dividend and wanting to cut the capital gains tax always comes up. I’m sure this is coming from the poor folks?

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Byron Skinner your totally idiotic rants never cease to amaze me. You come into this topic ranting and whining about conservatives like the barking moonbat liberal you are, despite the fact that this topic had nothing to do with politics! And now your rooting on decline of the United States military and our nation’s industrial and technological capabilities. We need those “big projects” you liberals whine about. Such systems ensure we maintain the edge over any potential adversary, they reduce the number of casualties we take, they deter our enemies. New tanks, aircraft, submarines, ships, you name it we need it. Even our nuclear arsenal will have to be modernized soon enough.

Yet you want to see all defense companies fail, you want to see the size of our forces slashed, and you oppose any new equipment to replace 30+ year old designs. People like you demanded a halt to F-22 production, and now your trying to kill the F-35 despite how critical it has now become to the USAF’s future structure. From your previous posts you evidently don’t want the USAF to get new tankers either despite how the old KC-135s are in danger of falling out of the sky soon!

The B-3? No aircraft or design has been officially designed as B-3 since none of our new bomber programs have made made it that far. However we still need a new bomber, and it will be required to carry nuclear weapons, almost certainly ensuring it is a manned aircraft.

While you no doubt want Lockheed Martin to fold, to say they “don’t have anything else in the pipeline” is sheer fantasy.

Tell my Byron? What is this “MADNESS” you speak of? Keeping a nuclear deterrent? I shouldn’t have to explain this to you but if we don’t maintain a nuclear arsenal then there is NO deterrent from other nations using their nuclear weapons against us? It is a very simple concept, although one the moonbats can’t understand evidently.

The 03 run to Baghdad was the end of an era? The United States may well become a bit more isolationist in the coming years, and I see no problem with that. However history shows us that despite how hard we may try to stay out of international conflicts, we could easily be drawn into the fight. And naturally in any conflict conventional forces must first be dealt with, and that gentlemen is what the Abrams is built to do.

There were countless arguments supporting the need for the F-22, and there are even more arguments in favor of the F-35 when you consider there is NO practical alternative. Large numbers of F-15s, F-16s, and F/A-18s will be retiring in the coming years, and upgrades to them simply aren’t practical and effective enough. FCS? There is a requirement for a new generation of armored fighting vehicles. The 25 ton MGV family was not the answer, but that doesn’t change the requirement. DDG-1000? This program fell apart for many reasons, but if those three ships enter service, they will be useful technology demonstrators. Hopefully they will provide experience for our next generation of ships much like the Seawolf class did for our current Virginia class SSNs.

It’s hard to take Byron seriously when he makes novice errors such as saying Boeing makes F-16Ds and there’s no NGB when this very website posted recently about such a development.

Oh it gets better. Did you know that FCS manned ground vehicles were wheeled? The NLOS-Cannon costs $6 billion for 18? The Chinese have no AWACS because of a crash back in 2006? Aviation Week sure seems to believe that NG has a contract for something bomber-related and we know they have a contract for UCAV. Lockheed was building RQ-170s for a few years it appears.

http://​www​.popularmechanics​.com/​t​e​c​h​n​o​l​o​g​y​/​m​i​l​ita…

Of course Byron thinks that because China is good at building Walmart products, that they are going to replace us as the preeminent world builder of high-tech military products.

Good Morning Cole,

Lets see. I guess I’ll start with WMD’s, yes Saddam used chemical weapons on the Kurds, routinely in the US we use CS gas in law enforcement, so what does that prove Cole? My question is, who besides idiot neo conservatives have ever listed chemical agents as WMD’s?

The only time this weapon was used to any extent was in WW l and the death total from all sides was less then 78,000, hardly a mass killing weapon. Post World War l investigations about the use of chemical agents say that among other things more troops in on all sides were treated for VD then exposure to gas. Officers on both side down played any tactical use or effectiveness that the use of gas gave either side in the conflict.

The non use of chemical weapons in WW ll was not because everyone was afraid to be the first to use chemical weapons, it was because they simply have no military use. If the use of chemical weapons would have been of any value the Germans would have packed chemical chemical agents into their V-2’s, by that time they were clearly losing the war and knew that it was all over, but they didn’t. Why Cole?

In Vietnam we used CS (in grenade and crystal form}, CN and some old left over CR chemical agents and they were worthless. The use of thermite bombs are far more effective o WMD then chemical agents and is still legal.

So Cole before the wingers started building a case for invading Iraq, could you show me where some internationally body that the US is part of or even recognizes declared the use of chemical agents as WMD’s or for that matter even listed any Biological Agents as WMD’s?

On China Cole you might be advised to go back and read my past posts. The Position you claim that I have, is in fact that of all the antebellums out their who want to keep spending more and more on worthless never to be used weapon systems/platforms like the FCS and F-22.

As far as Chinas ability to produce quality weapons/platforms/systems or whatever they are at least 50 years behind the United States, if we stopped developing and building weapons now, which of course we are not. Maybe Cole you have eaten to much yellow cake, perhaps?

Lets see the FCS, oh yes, you lost on that one, whine away. I see you are telling me that China has replaced it lost AWACS, where can I find this information since it’s news to me?

On a bomber since I see the daily DoD contracts and also those in Commerce Business Daily I haven’t seen any RFQ’s or request to bid on such a project. Cole you say the NG has a CONTRACT for something bomber-related, could you please share the source besides Aviation Week, which is hardly reliable and subject to posting speculation as fact. Any manned combat platform plane after the F-35 right now is the product of to much PBR and Meth on the winger mind.

On the Seawold Cole. If you were up on the literature you would know that Seawolf was an extension of the Los Angeles Class and not a direct decedent of the Virginia Class boats.

The RQ-170, is still an unknown neither the AF or NG are talking, so anything you or anyone else, including Aviation Week, is saying is purely speculation. The air frame form the two pictures that have been shown appears to be quite similar to the half size X-47 that was tested a couple of years ago for the navy as proof of concept.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

“My question is, who besides idiot neo conservatives have ever listed chemical agents as WMD’s?“
————————————-

I rest my case. Bet you believe anthrax used as a terror weapons does not qualify either.

Byron said: “Saddam never had any WMD’s never said he had any WMD’s and any thoughts other wide are just sugar plumb winger dreams. So go down stairs to the kitchen and have a piece of yellow cake and forget about it.”

http://​www​.cbsnews​.com/​s​t​o​r​i​e​s​/​2​0​0​8​/​0​1​/​2​4​/​6​0​m​i​nut…

Whay say you now? Do you need a refresher on the Kurds or Shi’ites he killed using chemical weapons?

Good Evening Cole,

I assume that you are in reference to the Anthrax attacks via the U.S. Mail in the United States. Who ever referred to them as Terrorists WMD events? In fact President Bush himself when asked this question said that they were not a terrorists event.

Again I’m asking what, if any country or none state party has ever weaponized Biological Pathogens. The old Soviet Union tried for many years to weaponize live viruses. Lives viruses just don’t lend themselves to be weaponized. Another problem is how would you control a biological weapons?

Your rusty Cole, I know you can do better then this. You and John Nooan of Heritage are the only two neo-cons that I’ve run across who have to ability to formulate an argument and more or less support it. You need to get back in shape Cole.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Dozens of units won’t need fire support at the same time. If I’m not mistaken, the idea is that all of the units should have enough situational awareness of one another that they can either support each other, or support fire can be directed to any units in need of it. I don’t understand why getting supporting fire would be any more of an issue in distributed warfare than it is now? Just like we do now, there will be fast movers, attack helicopters and/or armed drones airborne 24/7 ready to provide support to any unit requesting it. Not only that, but these distributed units should require support fires less frequently than generic combat units that are much more visible to the enemy.

1999 was ten years ago. So much has changed since then in the technology that is available to our troops. Not only that, and I don’t know what the study the conducted assumed about the combat situation, but perhaps they were exploring distributed warfare in a region that we did not occupy where getting fire support would be difficult, if not impossible. If anything, distributed warfare is probably just a more refined version of what we are doing in Afghanistan already — it’s not like their aren’t special forces teams all over the region getting their hands dirty as we speak.

“Beating The Low Signature Enemy”–let’s talk Puppet Master. “Naked-emperor” was why the Colonials revolted and AGAIN the US is at the “eureka” moment – long after the deaths of Jackson, Lincoln, McKinley & JFK. Executives who survived sold us down the river as slaves on the global plantation (see: Ron Paul, Congressman/Audit-Abolish the FED). The PM is the EU-“royalty”/NATO mo-net/$-MASTERS who use our kids’ blood to pave the roads: oil, opium, hashish, gas, etc. and ARE THE enemy domestic. Obama can lead follow or get out of the way, but our freedom depends on US realizing “terrorism” was a ruse to deploy our corpses for emperor profit. If this hasn’t got you pissed off, think about it ‘cause it will.
Houston, we have lock-on

I see that Byron Skinner’s complete howling moonbat liberal insanity is attracting conspiracy theorists. Byron I suggest you look up the KJ-2000 AWACS. Here is a picture of two of them just to prove you wrong.

==http://​www​.china​-defense​-mashup​.com/​w​p​-​c​o​n​t​e​n​t​/up…

But I guess it is all an illusion by the “vast right-wing conspiracy” in order to properly equip our military, right Byron?

Good Morning Folks,

I see that the antebellum wingers have nothing of a substance to add to this discussion other then their usual “gotch ya’s and lame/limp attempts of personal attacks.

The humor of course is that these cowards, who won’t even post under their own names, who never served a day in uniform, now want to equip the military by peddling junk to the DoD from foreign companies. Now that’s a joke.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Okay, pardon my lack of history/political knowledge, but I’m just curious. How does that come into conflict with US interests? I would assume that you’re implying the US is somehow going to get involved.

Moreover, in the event of any ballistic missile sale/deal, couldn’t the US heavily publicize it and turn it into a political firestorm? The Russians did that to us with our whole European missile defense system and made things alot harder, so I assume that it could work to some similar effect with this.

Good to see your conveniently ignore those two Chinese AWACS in hangers, and in case you think both crashed there is another photo showing all four hangers with AWACS inside.

Cowards who won’t even post under the own names? Are you serious? Your service in Vietnam is no excuse for coming into EVERY topic and whining about conservatives who believe in a strong national defense. Your continued disrespected to all of the men and women working in the defense industry doesn’t do you any credit either.

When the eufrrprc-5thgenmil comes knocking, and it will when WE’re weak, theories will have a robust way of turning up as stubborn things — facts. Fact is, when you boil it down it is painful to see who profits — not US not now and I’m not the first to dis tyranny from the empire. lol — Halliburton is a “roof” contractor.

As for collateral damage, look around in our yard and tell me who is hurting. I guess if you’re not PO’d, you’re not paying close attention and history does repeat. “ALLONS” – cool.

Sir, go back a few years more. Post desert storm, we got stuck paying the no fly zones, trillion or 2 dollars, with the end in site.…

We here at Lockheed Martin will stay ahead n future types of super air domination,wich we are are all ready making a asembly line for.Of course we have our fellow partners that will be helping us in the fute as we help them stay ahead!If we could only show you what we have now,that makes the air or UAV now look 20 years old!!

I attended a presentation by the USMC’s anthropologist and she asked an interesting question:“Why do folks fight wars?“
Equally good question is how do you end wars?
We have a linear force that is organized, manned, trained, and equipped to fight a similar opposing force in uniform on a front line with a secure rear area while on the move.
The traditional focus has always been on killing the Bad Guys. In asymmetric war (guerilla war), where is the force to be destroyed? If they would just wear uniforms and mass in an open field, we could kill them all.
I’m as fond of 60 ton, high tech, multi-million dollar tanks with a huge infrastructure tail as anyone (or planes or boats or missiles), but 80% of the Bad Guys are being killed by 20% of the Good Guys with small arms today.
The Soviets allegedly killed 1 million Afghans and bombed them back to grass soup. Shall we kill them all to save them? Soviets did that, too, with some populations.
If we had a Taliban “bomb” today and killed all the Taliban (pick whatever group you want to kill), would the war be over?
I have no problem with killing folks. There is only a definable pot of resources; the question is how to accomplish the mission (assuming we can define measurable mission outcomes).
Throwing rocks and name calling are national sports, but, aside from the entertainment value, it accomplishes little.

I concur. I went to war with Marine Recon in Vietnam, small units, extremely effective, however we had a very high casullaty rate. Then went to an Army Special Forces A team, a slightly bigger unit, but again extremely effective. We could win the war with team leaders, but the generals would be denied their glory. The only thing that I disagree with is the “relatively little support”. Small specialized units usually require at least twice as much support units as conventional units. SF units are backwards designed from a normal unit.

77705256
These tactics are field proven — yet may not produce the desired results — situation dependent!

Strike — Counter — Strike — Counter — fail

Revise — Strike — Counter — Strike — WIN

lots of variables, yet proven to work in a high percentage of cases

Byron!! Get back on your Med’s!!!.…Darn it man, I bet you could talk to yourself for hours!

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