It’s Tracks For Son of FCS

It’s Tracks For Son of FCS

Influential retired Army Maj. Gen. Bob Scales has a good piece in the latest Armed Forces Journal detailing what the Army needs in a future Ground Combat Vehicle (GCV), the follow on effort to the cancelled FCS family of vehicles. Scales visited units in both Iraq and Afghanistan to catalog what works and what doesn’t in the Army’s current battle fleet and the lessons that should go into the design of the GCV.

What doesn’t work is the Stryker in Afghanistan, says Scales. The 5th Stryker Brigade, operating in southern Afghanistan’s Kandahar area, has taken heavy casualties, losing some 21 of the eight-wheeled vehicles and two dozen soldiers killed. “The vehicles have proven to be too thinly armored to survive the very large explosive power of Taliban IEDs and too immobile to maneuver off road to avoid them,” Scales writes.

The Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles, which worked well on Iraq’s extensive hard top roadways, have also struggled in Afghanistan’s unforgiving terrain. MRAPs are too heavy and cumbersome for off road mobility, and since almost all of Afghanistan is off road, it isn’t very effective; moreover it’s not a true fighting vehicle.


“The lesson of contemporary wars is that IEDs can best be defeated by designing a vehicle capable of avoiding them,” he writes, in other words a vehicle that can go off road across rough terrain so that it isn’t limited to predictable routes. That means the future GCV must be tracked. It must also be quiet enough to be somewhat stealthy, Scales argues, which would imply a rubberized band track.

The GCV must be a “universal carrier,” he says, providing transport, protection, firepower, networking and sensors for a squad sized team of not just soldiers, but Marines and special operations troops as well. A common carrier/fighting vehicle for all ground forces makes a lot of sense. The vehicle should also have a rapid fire auto-cannon to engage dismounted enemy infantry with “overwhelming firepower,” he says. No more pretending a .50 caliber machine gun is enough firepower for an armored vehicle.

Designers must be careful not to try and build a single vehicle for all battlefields, Scales says. He points to low intensity conflicts of the Iraq and Afghanistan variety as the operational “sweet spot” for which the vehicle should be designed; while being flexible enough to be scaled up for use on more lethal, high intensity battlefields. Ultimately, providing troops protection and firepower is more important than trying to build a lightweight, easily transportable vehicle.

The Army team, led by Brig. Gen. H.R. McMaster, that drafted the service’s newly released Capstone Concept document came to a similar conclusion in the section addressing future armored vehicle design:

“Specific attention should be given to the protection of light forces. They have, until now, been viewed as discretionary users of protected mobility vehicles, as it has been assumed that providing them with heavier vehicles might make them unable to conduct the full range of light force tasks. Light forces will need access to protected mobile vehicles and retain mission functionality with a degraded or interrupted network. These vehicles should also have sufficient weapons capability to deliver rapid, accurate, lethal, overwhelming direct fire against enemy infantry under all conditions of battle. Protected mobility vehicles should have capabilities to close with and eliminate the threat by synchronizing tactical reconnaissance (manned and unmanned), maneuver, fires, protection, close combat assault, and sustainment. Although this may constrain their ability to operate with a light footprint, it is likely to be mandated in order to provide sufficient levels of protection for deployed soldiers and civilians. This trend may also enhance the ability of light forces to assume wider roles.”

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Some of the criticisms here are misguided. The Stryker is quite mobile although slat armor and other additions naturally have a negative effect. For a vehicle weighing less than 20 tons, it has proven to provide a high degree of protection. Yet for dealing with advanced RPGs and large IEDs, your going to need a heavier armored vehicle.

The Stryker is a truck. An eight wheeled truck. The Russians in Chechnya lost a lot of BTR’s and BMP’s to RPG fire from overhead, jsut as we are losing Strykers from the bottom.

Tracks are the way to go, not if the Army, AF and Navy will buy the air and sea lift to move these things.…

Good Evening Greg,

I don’t know how to say this but the FCS GCV is dead, open the window it starting to smell in here. The rest of the FCS is on a very short leash. One BCT will equipped with the items remaining in the failed FCS program and take them to Afghanistan and if they work perhaps more will be bought, those that fail, will be buried in Afghanistan.

The most promising is the NLOS-LS which is an old idea “Vietnam Era” concept, not really an FCS concept. It was first envisioned as using the wire guided TOW with a TV in its nose for guidance as an indirect fire weapon. If the NLOS-LC works, it has possibilities in the Army, Marines on the ground and on the Navy’s LCS. The broadband of the FCS is still in early developmental stages and now has strong competition from Harris.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Byron the FCS program vehicle was MGV (Manned Ground Vehicle). While GCV (Ground Combat Vehicle) is part of the new BCT-M program or whatever they are calling it.

GCV is not dead or least it shouldn’t be dead because there are many ways we can improve both on the Bradley and M113 which the first GCV variant is supposed to replace.

Commonality is always a big thing these days, I imagine future vehicles are planned under the GCV program, but will they use a common chassis, or just some common components like the engine and etc.?

The predecessor to NLOS-LS was EFOGM (Enhanced Fiber Optic Guided Missile) which apparently was rather successful. Hopefully NLOS-LS will enter active service.

Bob Scales is a bright guy, but to say that Stryker doesn’t work in Afghanistan is wrong. I saw some of the photos of damaged vehicles (Stryker and MRAP) early in the 5/2 deployment and there isn’t a vehicle made that would have survived the size of the IED that hit those vehicles. We can make a better combat vehicle, but the cost may be more than anyone is willing to pay. By some estimates, the GCV could weigh 50–60 tons and cost $5-6M per copy. There are 5000+ Bradley’s in the Army inventory so the bill to replace those could be $25B or more. That is a big number even in the US budget.

The origional Stryker design (rightly or wrongly) was woefully underarmored. The MEXAS I armor couldn’t even stop .50 CAL FSP. The MEXAS II armor was an improvement, but was much heavier and started to effect the road performance. Throw in IED Blast plates, Slat armor, etc and the design is just overtaxed for the terrain / threat environment.

In this way it’s a bit like the HMMWV, great vehicle for what it was designed to do, but now it’s just the wrong tool for the job.

You cant build a vehicle that will fit every scenario, right now everyone is concentrating on the gulf region. These things are too heavy for wetlands, mountainsous regions, tropical areas and so on without getting bogged down. The more bullet and bomb proof you make it, the enemy will just adapt and bring more bang for the buck as they did starting this mess. We need aome new vehicles yes but they should be smaller not bigger and be multifunctional while operating in various types of real world terrain. They should have heavy duty suspensions and drive trains that hold up. Any armour should be removeable without having to send it back state side for an upgrade. Tracks are great till they break or get jammed up going through a wooded area, and take longer to repair than a flat tire. They pretty much just need to go back to the drawing board all together and let the soldiers and mechanics design them.

Soldiers and mechanics are not engineers!

“Soldiers and mechanics are not engineers! ” So true. It takes one or the other to unscrew what the engineer screws up.

Let’s look at the outstanding South African armor for a moment.

For many years those Africaans guys have designed their fighting vehicle vee-shaped hulls to deflect the main force of the blast away from the occupants… which as a consequence has saved many a life.…

In response to the clarion call for tracks… the BFV/Bradley Fighting Vehicle may not be highly regarded by tankers but they sure are by mounted troops… with an ungoverned speed of over 55 mph and a go practically anywhere design… let’s not sell them short. And the GE 23 mm Bushmaster chain-gun in the turret is an awesome weapon to boot.

The Marine LAV has the same weapon and no one can say that it couldn’t hold its own against practically any fortification in ‘Stan. During the Gulf War… if LAV’s were able to get behind T-70’s then they could just hammer away at the engine compartments until they blew through… again what a thoroughly remarkable weapon.…

I agree with don zweifel, it sounds like the BFV’s time has come. Several upgrades I would include to provide better protection for vehicle and crew; 1. Viewports positioned on the turret to give wide area, lightly magnified views to the areas above the turret/vehicle. 2. Better shielding for the BC when popped up above the BC hatch. The BC in the open hatch position is the best means of target detection/avoidance, however operating in mountanious areas it would be suicide without some overhead protection.
3. Pintle mounted MK19 for HE suppression of RPG gunners above the turret (this system would also be remotely operated through the use of boresighted video camera) for use by the BC.
4. Strategically mounted ball mounts inside the troop area to provide close in suppression (I know we tried this with the original BFV, good concept that was discarded rather than improved).
It’s been several years since I’ve been involved with the Bradley force and I haven’t been to Afghanistan but history tells us the Russians were soundly defeated because they didn’t adapt to the terrain and the tactics used by the Afghan fighters. The BFV is a reliable troop carrying weapons platform that can and should be adapted this threat.

Most engineers dont know squat about what they are designing and that is a fact, I worked at ARDEC (Army Research Developement & Engineering Command) before I accepted my new position where I’m still arguing with engineers that dont know crapp about what they mange. I often talked to ammo guys who never even saw a M16 or LMG let alone was trained on one and had no ideal how little things such shoulder length concentrencies, primer pockets being centered, have a big impact on weapon reliability, or that sniper ammo has to be free of defects and have consistent powder weights to be accurate. I had the same arguments over mortar and artillery rounds and vehicle designs. So yes I say the soldiers, sailors, airmen,pilots and mechanics need to come up with the ideals and design perimiters and the engineers come up with the plans to meet their requirements rather than our troops having to adapt their ideals. If they had listened to us in the first place we would still have the jeep, 7.62mm battle rifles, 45acp pistols, 21/2 ton trucks, PT boats, Hueys, Diesel subs, and other good equipment that the brass and engineers replaced with thier toys.

It seems our choppers have taken their place.But the tanks Ive seen are superior to other all computerized firing etc,But then yeah its still weight and some old problems.But maybe in the far future a ingeneer will come up with new sorts of metals notto forget price..

Having worked on several advanced technologies for the FCS program, I suggest some basic questions. First, how will the next generation of ground combat vehicles deal with mobile insurgents armed with tandem-warhead RPGs, heavy (17.6 mm) rifles and shoulder-fired stand-off anti-tank or anti-UAV missiles? Second, what tactics will be used by vehicles or dismounted soldiers to survive in urban (or village) warfare? Third, what assumptions do we make about command connectivity and situation awareness in a world where a technician can make an effective small-area network jammer from parts purchased at Radio Shack?

It seems to me that once we put aside the idea that we can (even “most” of the time) find and kill the enemy at a stand-off distance among a native population of non-combatants, the answers to these questions pretty much determine the weight class of vehicles we require to transport troops and equipment into the battle and back. I shall be very surprised if the answer we get is anything less than 40 tons or is powered by wheels. And I shall not be surprised if such a vehicle is ill-adapted for both low-intensity marsh warfare and high-intensity warfare against heavy armor and mechanized infantry. There are simply no such Utopian solutions in the real world.

The high cost of modern military weapon systems is doubtless raised even further by changes in requirements after development begins. But if FCS and other canceled programs offer us any examples, the problem begins much earlier. The Joint Requirements Oversight Council process needs to force our Services to limit their dream sheets (and CONOPs) to things we can do with proven technology at an acceptable cost. Trying to fix grandiose requirements by “proving” immature technologies in the early stages of full scale development is a prescription for 12-year development cycles and 300% overruns.

The FCS program didn’t fail…the Pentagon quit in the middle of the game. Such as it was, the program was on schedule and within budget. The fact is that networked systems are about much more than just sending pictures and text messages around. The MCS design was questionable. The other seven vehicle variants were pretty sound designs. The hybrid engine alone was worth taking the common chassis to test.
I read the Scales article a few days ago, but did not induce “tracks” as opposed to “wheels” from what he said. This is a very old argument, and if you include the Marines, they will have a vote. The Puma design is a lot closer to American tastes than some South African light carrier garbage. The Army’s slides going back six months still point to full spectrum conflict as the end state, so I question Scales’s premise. But there is a lot of flouride in the water these days, it seems…if all you want is a battle taxi for LIC and not an infantry combat/fighting vehicle, just what is so bad about the Stryker ? It’s like taking the lessons of Vietnam and baselining your armored infantry concept based on the performance of the M114.

Modular armor is a good idea. Puma already does this…the Bundeswehr’s fielding plan calls for 405 of these to be delivered: enough to fit out their ONE deployable division.FCS just threw the transport and countermine versions of the MULE robotics platform and the brigade level UAV under the bus. It is getting harder and harder to take the Army’s modernization plans very seriously. We be lost in the 60s (and the 70s) tonight. I’m waiting for the Military Reform Caucus to crank back up so that they can attack all the new systems we don’t have.

So — what is the length of the development cycle for the Crusader and the Armored Gun System ? I’m sorry, but my cynicism approaches infinity here. Back in the 70s, they cancelled the MBT. Then, with some pushing and shoving, they took the lessons of the MBT program, used the Leopard as a competitive stalking horse, and we got the M-1 tank — a truly superb combat system out of the bargain. And I remember the Fuchs/Fox purchase. The US program was on its rear, no hope to get through the bureaucracy and into the field. So we bought a fully engineered and well integrated solution from the Germans. There is a morning after — if the political will exists to take the solution to testing and put it into the field — when ready. if you don’t even take the prototype to test, how can you learn what you need to ?

Something else that should be looked at is what is the units secondary mission as well as thier primary. Such as with the Guard units, considering they spend a good amount of time helping paersonnel recover from floods — hurricanes — tornadoes — and blizzards then thier equipment should be adaptable. rather than humvees and 5 ton trucks how come they dont have ducks (as used during ww2) they cound drive them to the affected area on the highway and then into the flooded area and rescue personnel in the same vehicles, in a war zone they could be uparmored while being used on land. They could patrol waterways and give pursuit on land rather than break off engagement when the bad guys go dry during a chase. SPECOPS guys need fast and light that can be air transported and dropped thus more sandrails for them not STAR WARS gear. There will never be one vehicle to cover all situations and terrain but the old ducks would be a good starting base for a lot of operations we encounter.

As I sarted reading the above comments, an idea came to mind. I held that idea as I read the comments. I’m correct. *NONE* of you have identified either the *REAL* *PROBLEM* here, or the *REAL SOLUTION*.……That future combat vehicle *WILL BE*.…*UNMANNED*!!!…Look at the UAV’s: Damn good effective, & getting moreso everyday…Imagine a couple hundred “UGV’S”(Un-manned Ground Vehicles) zipping around the ‘Stan, fully integrated w/UAV’s, while the vehicle operators are back at base…I’m so saddened at the pointless loss of life in those Strykers. If it needs slat armor, it’s too lightly armored in the first place!…In 1945 Berlin, the Russians welded metal bed frames & springs to their T-34’s turrets & hulls to protect against German panzerfausts. The panzerfaust is the 1940’s version RPG…Didn’t you *KIDS* learn *ANYTHING*???.…“Greatest Generation”, MY FOOT!!!…How many Abrams did we *NOT* deploy to Afghanistan???…“MRAP” = “Money? Really? America (has) Plenty!!!…my relatives are pissed.……SEMPER FI!, & HOO-AH!!!…

We will never go fully unmanned, it is far too expensinve and unfeesable. On average it cost about 500,000.00 for a bot to carry and M240 and 500 rounds of ammo, it is noisy, inaccurate, the cammera guy cant see what a man can see and adapt to, and they are easy to take out. Predators despite common belief do not mearly fly to their targets unaided by ground forces with eyes on the enemy. The brass is playing with thier toys right now but in truth we could have gotten more enemy KIA’s if they had sent an F16 to do the job after the eyes on the ground identified the targets. Just as many of the smart bombs we dropped in the beginning of the war were guided by men on the ground. Bots are a fad the generals are playing with but as with most fads wont last long. We even started using more conventional cheaper bombs to drop on the bad guys because the smart bombs are just too expensive and take too long to build and fields. The best weapon will always be a well trained AMERICAN armed with small arms and a KaBar knife, period.

Lets consider a few things about GCV.

The canceled FCS Manned Ground Vehicles were supposed to be in the 18–25 ton range. The XM1206 ICV variant was planned to replace the Bradley and M113 much as the current GCV program was planned to do. Now considering that the XM1206 and all other MGV variants were canceled, that suggests that the Army doesn’t believe that a weight of some 25 tons provides enough armor protection. I believe one report said that a 40 ton weight is likely for the GCV, meaning that tracks would be best, and offerings like that upgraded Stryker are out of the picture.

Modular armor could provide a base weight low enough so a C-17A could carry two such vehicles, while allowing such a vehicle to be easily up-armored in the field. The armor itself would likely be some sort of advanced composite configuration and possibly supplemented by some form of reactive armor. MGV did make some progress in lighter composite armors which may be useful for GCV. The Army has some concerns with active defense systems yet GCV could be designed to accept such a system easily in the future. Passive defense systems designed to fool or misguide ATGMs may also be likely.

Regarding weapons an autocannon in the 30mm to 40mm range is likely. The prime contenders probably being the 30mm Bushmaster II, the 35mm Bushmaster III, and the 40mm CTA cannon which the British selected for FRES and their Warrior upgrade. For the coaxial MG, I imagine the old M240C will be used again. As for ATGMs, one of the problems the Bradley had with it’s TOWs was that the TOW is best used from a rather long range, two KM or so. Yet considering it is an Infantry Fighting Vehicle, the Bradley is often supporting the infantry at much closer ranges. The Javelin might be a better pick for the GCV with it’s fire-and-forget capability and short minimum range.

One thing the Army should decide is if they want to use a common chassis for the GCV as they attempted in the MGV program. Alternative the Army could just try and use some common components like the engine. Perhaps up-scaling the hybrid electric design tested in the MGV to a higher HP would provide an excellent engine for the GCV.

I doubt you even have the brainpower to be an engineer with that comment! The engineers that design the vehicles only design the systems to meet the requirements given to them by the military “experts”. Then change the reqirements in mid-stream or like Crusader and FCS the government pulls the plug and we all end up back at square one.

Puma weighs 40 tons in its high protection mode, 30 tons when the side armor goes off. Very much in the realm of the doable, and maybe Yankee ingenuity can do a bit better. Ironically, APS was preserved as part of the program last summer — with the intention of feeding into the GCV program later on. The real question for an ICV/IFV is how it deals with mounting and firing an ATGM under armor. That affects the turret configuration, signature, drives vehicle weight, the whole nine yards…there is just so much you can do with an autocannon. If you are going to go to 40 tons, you might as well make the thing a light tank chassis. One of the three major things I hated about the MCS was its pathetic basic load.
On the question of ground robots, I’m a believer. SUGV works for squad operations, the MULE combat variant could a a platoon or a company level asset. You can do all sorts of interesting BLOS things with the manned controller here and the sensor platform there. A lot of people though the Army made an error when they redlined the large unmanned platform reconnaissance and weapons platforms. But that will end up being another program and perhaps another generation.

Understandably, the commentary in response to this article covers a lot of territory. However, I’d offer some further questions in hopes of promoting more focus.

First, are any of us familiar with the most recent Israeli experience against Hamas? From what I’ve heard, Israeli main battle tanks took serious casualties when they tried to fight with limited local intelligence, limited maneuver room and restricted sight lines in urban terrain. Lighter armored vehicles most certainly won’t do better, and they could well do a lot worse. APS also doesn’t strike me as a solution for the RPG problem, when the other guys can launch them at you from cellars or second story windows only a few yards away.

I also suggest that all of us read the Army Capstone Concept, recently revised. One of the things it suggests is that continuing to employ on-road vehicles and tactics in predictable patrol patterns is practically an invitation to being defeated by large IEDs. The Army is now thinking about vehicles with greater off-road maneuverability than wheeled vehicles can deliver. The idea is an old one: hit the other guy from places he can’t predict. That may not help much if such vehicles are used to occupy villages and towns, of course. Likewise, it’s not going to be helpful in the mountains of Afghanistan. One must wonder just what kinds of hardware will do better in those two cases. So far, I haven’t heard much that sounds useful.

Second, are any of us familiar with the availability of inexpensive jamming technology? There’s a lot of it out there in the real world. Anybody who proposes to fight with unmanned vehicles at a distance had better think about what they’re going to use for scene video when the other folks can trim down our effective video bandwidth from over 10 Megahertz to less than 10 Kilohertz by turning on a few man-portable noise jammers. And if we believe that stand-off Predators are the answer to this particular maiden’s prayer, then we’d also better think about the simple things an opponent might do to shoot these vehicles down, as happened with so many smaller RPVs in Bosnia and elsewhere. The enemy doesn’t conveniently sit still or play stupid, folks. He adapts. We’ll have to do the same.

Any way we go about it, bringing the battle to insurgents who operate among an urban population is going to be a cast-iron bear to execute, in an age where both anti-armor weapons and jammers are cheap and plentiful. It’s not going to come cheap and it may not come light-weight.

Mr Lee, If you are refering to me and my comments I can only speculate that you are an engineer. In reality engineers dont get thier information from military experts they get them from military officers who are completely out of touch with the troops needs because the officers never have to work on anything. And most enginners never start with a clean sheet of paper, they take old drawings and modify them such as the MRAP abortion, and they have never had to work on or maintain anything they design. I see this on a daily basis first hand.

All vehicles do not have to be large, heavy, armoured, troop carriers. Use alternate routes at varying times and walk into hamlets and neghborhoods rather than ride up in the AC equipped transporter. This is not the first war we have been in nor the last where the bad guys have mines-rockets– and small arms fire. It was never a major issue before, just since we got lazy is it a problem. Get rid of all the MRAPS, armoured humvees, Hmets, 51/2 tons and so on and replace them with jeeps and pickups with off road trailers. Armour belongs on tanks and apc’s. If we continue down this road the bad guys will just take to the mountains and wetlands where these vehicles cannot go, which is why tanks and such were never much use outside the city during Nam, a lot of parts of europe and korea. This is also why most of the fighting in africa is done in the bush where these vehicles get bogged down or break axles.

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