Comments on: QDR Kills Two MTW Strategy; Helos, UAVs Are Stars http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/ Online Defense and Acquisition Journal Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:40:09 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: BOOMERhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19392 BOOMER Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:45:48 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19392 BOZO - I take it you like UAV's. I've spent a lot of time in country and they are not as useful as the media and builders hype. They are ok for flyby recons of mapped areas and perimiters which is why Border patrol likes them but they cannot seek out and find the enemy on thier own and the console warriors only see whats on the cameras. Boots on the ground guidance has been responsible for the UAV's big successes to date. the same boots on the ground could have taken out the targets themselves for a lot less money than these new toys are costing us. Plus those boots were put in jepordy having to hold position till the predator arrives, and if the predator fails the boots take the target on but have lost thier supprise element. so you can keep them and I'll keep my rifle and KaBar. BOZO — I take it you like UAV’s. I’ve spent a lot of time in country and they are not as useful as the media and builders hype. They are ok for flyby recons of mapped areas and perimiters which is why Border patrol likes them but they cannot seek out and find the enemy on thier own and the console warriors only see whats on the cameras. Boots on the ground guidance has been responsible for the UAV’s big successes to date. the same boots on the ground could have taken out the targets themselves for a lot less money than these new toys are costing us. Plus those boots were put in jepordy having to hold position till the predator arrives, and if the predator fails the boots take the target on but have lost thier supprise element. so you can keep them and I’ll keep my rifle and KaBar.

]]> By: Bozohttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19369 Bozo Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:07:04 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19369 BTW, current term is UAS, unmanned aerial system, I guess acknowledging the global C2 and logistical chain tied to them. BTW, current term is UAS, unmanned aerial system, I guess acknowledging the global C2 and logistical chain tied to them.

]]> By: Bozohttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19368 Bozo Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:04:24 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19368 Boomer. Are you serious, "UAV's have a very limited use", they're being used everywhere, by every concievable unit, they're being used as eye, ears, and weapon systems, comm relays, targeting systems. You get the drift, every link in the chain of command knows the value, that's why every commander with any sense has figured out how to use this asset.Can you site a front line CDR writing about or testifying that he needs fewer UAV capabilities? Has Petraeus or McChrystal been sending back Predators unused? Boomer. Are you serious, “UAV’s have a very limited use”, they’re being used everywhere, by every concievable unit, they’re being used as eye, ears, and weapon systems, comm relays, targeting systems. You get the drift, every link in the chain of command knows the value, that’s why every commander with any sense has figured out how to use this asset.

Can you site a front line CDR writing about or testifying that he needs fewer UAV capabilities? Has Petraeus or McChrystal been sending back Predators unused?

]]> By: BOOMERhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19229 BOOMER Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:46:57 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19229 The issue with small arms ammo is 1st that the 5.56mm requires a lot of spraying to put a man completely down at close range. 2nd the enemy is usualy behind a thick wall. 3rd in an urban area you dont always know exactly where the shot came from so you lay down suppressive fire in the general direction until you can figure it out. 4th belted ammo shipments are held up at the factory because of tracer failures, even though we tell them constantly that we dont want the tracers that give away our positions and flash our NVG's and pull them out and throw them away any how. 5th a lot of ammo shipments are classified for training use only because of defects found during govt testing and the contractors convince the item mangers to accept it any ways rather than the govt forcing them to improve thier quality at the factories. 6th we give a lot of it to other countries that we talked into converting to 5.56mm as part of the agreements. 7th troops are to reliant on all the gadgets and scopes on thier weapons wich become useless on the run and in the dust, they need better real life training on the weapon itself before being trained on the gadgets. On anther topic, UAV's have a very limmited use as is being realized in the field right now. The issue with small arms ammo is 1st that the 5.56mm requires a lot of spraying to put a man completely down at close range. 2nd the enemy is usualy behind a thick wall. 3rd in an urban area you dont always know exactly where the shot came from so you lay down suppressive fire in the general direction until you can figure it out. 4th belted ammo shipments are held up at the factory because of tracer failures, even though we tell them constantly that we dont want the tracers that give away our positions and flash our NVG’s and pull them out and throw them away any how. 5th a lot of ammo shipments are classified for training use only because of defects found during govt testing and the contractors convince the item mangers to accept it any ways rather than the govt forcing them to improve thier quality at the factories. 6th we give a lot of it to other countries that we talked into converting to 5.56mm as part of the agreements. 7th troops are to reliant on all the gadgets and scopes on thier weapons wich become useless on the run and in the dust, they need better real life training on the weapon itself before being trained on the gadgets. On anther topic, UAV’s have a very limmited use as is being realized in the field right now.

]]> By: John Kinghttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19227 John King Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:20:16 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19227 I believe I've mentioned it before on another topic, but transformation would be to deploy one manned combat aircraft with two combat UAVs. The UAVs execute the planned missions (like dropping order or missiles in a high risk area), while the man-in-the-loop reacts to any change in situation. I don't believe its an all-or-nothing scenario on using technology. I believe we need to create synergies through combinations with greater reactive firepower. I believe I’ve mentioned it before on another topic, but transformation would be to deploy one manned combat aircraft with two combat UAVs. The UAVs execute the planned missions (like dropping order or missiles in a high risk area), while the man-in-the-loop reacts to any change in situation. I don’t believe its an all-or-nothing scenario on using technology. I believe we need to create synergies through combinations with greater reactive firepower.

]]> By: TMBhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19224 TMB Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:17:42 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19224 Situational Awareness is a big one. A pilot can't full appreciate his surroundings by looking through a couple video cameras. UAVs visuals are often referred to as "soda straws" because of their narrow field of vision. The problem is compounded if you try to make a fighter unmanned since the pilot can't react nearly fast enough to an enemy attack and right now UAVs aren't nearly as nimble as manned fighters. You say that unmanned planes will be smaller. That's not true if you're looking to replace our current bomber fleet. The B-52 and the B-2 can carry tens of thousands of pounds of ordnance. Manned or unmanned, the requirement for that kind of payload isn't going away. Situational Awareness is a big one. A pilot can’t full appreciate his surroundings by looking through a couple video cameras. UAVs visuals are often referred to as “soda straws” because of their narrow field of vision. The problem is compounded if you try to make a fighter unmanned since the pilot can’t react nearly fast enough to an enemy attack and right now UAVs aren’t nearly as nimble as manned fighters. You say that unmanned planes will be smaller. That’s not true if you’re looking to replace our current bomber fleet. The B-52 and the B-2 can carry tens of thousands of pounds of ordnance. Manned or unmanned, the requirement for that kind of payload isn’t going away.

]]> By: WarScientisthttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19219 WarScientist Mon, 01 Feb 2010 11:26:16 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19219 Whats the problem with having a completely unmanned airforce? Human pilots take a long time and many many dollars to train, plus they can only stand up to so many Gs before they black out. Having an unmanned airforce means the following: 1) Planes are smaller, lighter and faster cause they dont have to worry about keeping a human alive at 30,000 feet. 2) No loss of human life! 3) Pilots can fly for longer since they are just sitting in a lazy-boy somewhere safe on base, not in a stressfull and tiring seating position whilst flying upside down. 4) Training costs are reduced drastically, since its basically like playing a computer game. All in all, i really see no disadvantages in having an unmanned airforce. Whats the problem with having a completely unmanned airforce?

Human pilots take a long time and many many dollars to train, plus they can only stand up to so many Gs before they black out. Having an unmanned airforce means the following:

1) Planes are smaller, lighter and faster cause they dont have to worry about keeping a human alive at 30,000 feet.
2) No loss of human life!
3) Pilots can fly for longer since they are just sitting in a lazy-boy somewhere safe on base, not in a stressfull and tiring seating position whilst flying upside down.
4) Training costs are reduced drastically, since its basically like playing a computer game.

All in all, i really see no disadvantages in having an unmanned airforce.

]]> By: WarScientisthttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19218 WarScientist Mon, 01 Feb 2010 11:18:21 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19218 Keep in mind you guys also have to supply the iraqi national army, the ANA and the ANP with ammo as well. Also, due to terrain and engagement types, there is a lot of lead being slung around in Afghanistan. The fact that it's all about suppression whilst you wait for the fast air or arty to finish the job also means ammo goes empty real quick. Maybe, just MAYBE tho the JSSAP will push to make sure the Lightweight Small Arms Technology (LSAT) gets finished, implemented and produced and then the guys on the front can carry 50% more bang for their buck. Doesnt fix the ammo production issues, but at least people can carry enough to last them longer than just 1 contact. Keep in mind you guys also have to supply the iraqi national army, the ANA and the ANP with ammo as well.

Also, due to terrain and engagement types, there is a lot of lead being slung around in Afghanistan. The fact that it’s all about suppression whilst you wait for the fast air or arty to finish the job also means ammo goes empty real quick.

Maybe, just MAYBE tho the JSSAP will push to make sure the Lightweight Small Arms Technology (LSAT) gets finished, implemented and produced and then the guys on the front can carry 50% more bang for their buck. Doesnt fix the ammo production issues, but at least people can carry enough to last them longer than just 1 contact.

]]> By: mike jhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19184 mike j Sat, 30 Jan 2010 13:23:10 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19184 There are two assumptions there: That things were going to be safe and friendly, and that it was the job of the US military and by extension, the US taxpayer, to keep things safe and friendly. Can you see the hubris there? I think one problem is we had no idea what world peacekeeping would entail, we had no realistic plan, and in the absence of a plan we kept doing things the way we had been, i.e. incremental improvement isn't good enough, every system has to leap ahead, etc. We also have no fiscal responsibility. There are two assumptions there: That things were going to be safe and friendly, and that it was the job of the US military and by extension, the US taxpayer, to keep things safe and friendly. Can you see the hubris there?

I think one problem is we had no idea what world peacekeeping would entail, we had no realistic plan, and in the absence of a plan we kept doing things the way we had been, i.e. incremental improvement isn’t good enough, every system has to leap ahead, etc. We also have no fiscal responsibility.

]]> By: William C.http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19179 William C. Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:50:46 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19179 And Clinton continued it throughout the 1990s at an even larger scale. Doesn't make either president's actions right. And Clinton continued it throughout the 1990s at an even larger scale. Doesn’t make either president’s actions right.

]]> By: WARIIIhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19182 WARIII Sat, 30 Jan 2010 07:22:54 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19182 It seems to me that these so called two MTW arsenals have served us well in IRAQ and Afghanistan. Mr. Gates wants an all UAV airforce so he can use ground pounders to run his UAVs. Then he can just fedex the troops and equipment to wherever they are needed and he can get rid of the Airforce all together.( I think he is taking this grudge thing with the Airforce a little too far!!) It seems to me that these so called two MTW arsenals have served us well in IRAQ and Afghanistan. Mr. Gates wants an all UAV airforce so he can use ground pounders to run his UAVs. Then he can just fedex the troops and equipment to wherever they are needed and he can get rid of the Airforce all together.( I think he is taking this grudge thing with the Airforce a little too far!!)

]]> By: William C.http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19180 William C. Sat, 30 Jan 2010 05:51:31 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19180 Because the world has proven to be anything BUT the safer and friendlier place it was supposed to be after the fall of the USSR. Because the world has proven to be anything BUT the safer and friendlier place it was supposed to be after the fall of the USSR.

]]> By: TMBhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19151 TMB Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:17:57 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19151 Reread your history Alex. Bush Sr. was the first to ask for the military drawdown. VII Corps and its subordinate units in Germany were slated for inactivation just before Desert Storm because the Soviet Union was falling apart. Desert Storm saved VII Corps for a few more months, but it was still under Bush's presidency that the drawdown began. Reread your history Alex. Bush Sr. was the first to ask for the military drawdown. VII Corps and its subordinate units in Germany were slated for inactivation just before Desert Storm because the Soviet Union was falling apart. Desert Storm saved VII Corps for a few more months, but it was still under Bush’s presidency that the drawdown began.

]]> By: TMBhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19150 TMB Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:15:42 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19150 Byron, the army's small arms shortages were around long before Rummy came on board. Ammunition and maintenance funds are the first things to be attacked by members of Congress, not the neo-cons you hate so much. Sometime in the early 1990s David Hackworth went to I believe a Nebraska senator's office to advocate for increases in ammunition. The senator replied "that's good, ammunition is made here." Hack then told him he'd have to cancel the B-2 to fund it. The senator then said "I can't do that, the B-2 is made here." And please don't tell me what I know. Byron, the army’s small arms shortages were around long before Rummy came on board. Ammunition and maintenance funds are the first things to be attacked by members of Congress, not the neo-cons you hate so much. Sometime in the early 1990s David Hackworth went to I believe a Nebraska senator’s office to advocate for increases in ammunition. The senator replied “that’s good, ammunition is made here.” Hack then told him he’d have to cancel the B-2 to fund it. The senator then said “I can’t do that, the B-2 is made here.” And please don’t tell me what I know.

]]> By: mike jhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19145 mike j Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:26:51 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19145 So you think we should have kept all of the Reagan-era increases, even after the Soviet Union dissolved. Why, and what would that have accomplished? So you think we should have kept all of the Reagan-era increases, even after the Soviet Union dissolved. Why, and what would that have accomplished?

]]> By: Alex`http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19144 Alex` Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:06:05 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19144 And we have apparently a breakthrough in historical interpretations field, because apparently Bush Sr. presidency was immediately followed by the present conflict and not by 8 years of Clinton slash and burn strategy toward our own military. And we have apparently a breakthrough in historical interpretations field, because apparently Bush Sr. presidency was immediately followed by the present conflict and not by 8 years of Clinton slash and burn strategy toward our own military.

]]> By: Alex`http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19142 Alex` Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:51:51 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19142 I read it as an "unmanned carrier" for some reason. Got all excited. I read it as an “unmanned carrier” for some reason. Got all excited.

]]> By: Byron Skinnerhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19135 Byron Skinner Fri, 29 Jan 2010 03:08:00 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19135 Good Evening TMB,You state my point very well. But of course you know that according to the Neo Conservative, Ideologist infested Rumsfeld DoD the reason for the ammo shortage is that NCO's and Company Officers were not enforcing fire discipline.ALLONS, Byron Skinner Good Evening TMB,

You state my point very well. But of course you know that according to the Neo Conservative, Ideologist infested Rumsfeld DoD the reason for the ammo shortage is that NCO’s and Company Officers were not enforcing fire discipline.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

]]> By: TMBhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19134 TMB Fri, 29 Jan 2010 01:51:00 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19134 Until they invent a smart-bullet, my troops and I still need to fire a hell of a lot more small arms than we're provisioned for. And believe me, the post I work on has a chronic shortage of 5.56 and 7.62. Until they invent a smart-bullet, my troops and I still need to fire a hell of a lot more small arms than we’re provisioned for. And believe me, the post I work on has a chronic shortage of 5.56 and 7.62.

]]> By: William C.http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/01/27/qdr-kills-two-mtw-strategy-helos-uavs-are-stars/#comment-19129 William C. Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:20:03 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=12643#comment-19129 These things shouldn't be mutually exclusive. New tanks, aircraft, and other assets built for conventional warfare can be quite useful in today's conflicts. I am sure many a soldier have appreciated fire support from an Abrams or Bradley. We cannot have a force comprised solely of MRAPs with limited mobility, Predator UAVs, and infantry. Our air forces cannot be left to rot and need to be put on the right track again. These things shouldn’t be mutually exclusive. New tanks, aircraft, and other assets built for conventional warfare can be quite useful in today’s conflicts. I am sure many a soldier have appreciated fire support from an Abrams or Bradley. We cannot have a force comprised solely of MRAPs with limited mobility, Predator UAVs, and infantry. Our air forces cannot be left to rot and need to be put on the right track again.

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