GE Strikes Back on F136

GE Strikes Back on F136

Defense Secretary Gates slammed the F136 in his testimony yesterday before the Senate Armed Services Committee. Today, GE tackled his arguments, offering what they take to be a point by point refutation. The most interesting point is that GE says costs for the program should be “far less” than the $2.5 billion investment over the next five years that Gates cited.

Here’s the back and the forth, as sent by GE spokesman Rick Kennedy:

DoD: The F136 still requires a $2.5B investment over the next five years.

GE: About $3 billion has already been spent on the F136 since 1996, with less than $1 billion needed to complete development. Over the next five years, additional costs associated with tooling and support infrastructure bring the total to about $1.3 billion — far less than cited by the DoD.

DoD: The F136-F135 competition would not offset the additional costs. Analytical models produce a break-even scenario at best.

GE: The JSF engine program will ultimately reach $100B, and a decades-long engine competition needs only to generate a 1 percent to 2 percent cost benefit to recoup the remaining dollars needed to complete the F136 program. Last May, the GAO anticipated a 20 percent benefit from a JSF engine competition, using the F-16 “Great Engine War” as a comparison. There are also vast benefits beyond sheer cost — related to operational readiness and contractor responsiveness.

Last September’s proposal by GE Rolls-Royce for a unique fixed-price contract for early F136 production engines has already created a significant benefit — causing P&W to respond to its cost issues. Game on!

DoD: The F136 is three to four years behind the F135.

GE: The F136 production is less than 100 engines behind the F135 production for a JSF program designed to exceed 3,000 engines.

DoD: Split or shared buys don’t produce competitive behavior.

GE: The GE/RR presence in JSF has already influenced more responsive contract behavior. Split buys for JSF will create a unique opportunity to drive competitive behavior beyond the acquisition phase — into competing engine sustainment costs lasting for decades. The JSF engine competition is different from the storied F-16 competition because the JSF model extends to engine sustainment. The opportunity for cost savings through competition are outstanding, as cited by the GAO and many other procurement experts.

DoD: The many JSF customers are unwilling to buy from two engine suppliers.

GE: All eight international JSF partners have signed an MOU which recognizes competing engines as a key JSF feature. The international JSF partners strongly support competing engines. Competing engines led to a resurgence in F-16 sales, and are a valuable feature of ongoing F-15 and F-16s international competitions today. International sales are critical to the affordability model for JSF, which will be greatly enhanced by competing engines.

Without question, the JSF program needs to complete the F136 development to meet its challenging objectives.

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Good Morning Folks,

I’m not sure what the issue is here. President Obama has already said that he wouldn’t sign any defense bill with funds for the F-136 engine in it.

In the past when President Obama said this, he meant it. I see no compelling reason(s) for him to change his mind on this issue.

Sorry Colin but I think the fat lady has sung her song and has walked off the stage on the F-136.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

It appears defense for the F136 will continue in 2010 as well; a battle that only wastes time and money. It really amazes me how the DoD after being told by our elected Congressional and Senate body (the REAL law makers) to fund this program for the past several years is still reluctant to place it in the DoD budget. It also amazes me how Gates thinks he alone can determine the fate of the F136 and steer this 100B dollar market to ONE manufacturer. True capitalism and the American way is at stake here. Gates is also going against the Acquisition Reform Act which was signed by Mr. Obama back in May 2009. Gates is not only ignoring “legislation”, he is also breaking a law that has been signed into governance by OUR elected officials by trying to eliminate competition.

Mr. Gates, stop already and support the F136 which will provide a state of the art F35 Fifth Generation Aircraft that will support and defend our borders and those of our trusted allies. Mr. Gates, stop spending tax payer dollars and wasting our elected officials time with this useless battle which is geared at creating a monopoly and will destroy American progress in developing and growing leading edge technology. Mr. Gates, how can you openly agree and push for the sole source production of the F135 engine which is a derivative of the F119? You are creating a Air Force that will one day have the SAME engine powering Americas two premier Fighters in the F22 and F35. Mr. Gates, god forbid any real technical issue happens to these engines. History has shown that its Airpower that wins Wars and its been American airpower that has kept us the LAND OF THE FREE.

They are facing the possibility of not having a jet for that snazzy new engine.

Get the stupid plane in the air more, and worry about an alternate engine later.

The funding of the alternative engine is nothing more than a way to help GE plain ans simple. This is why the Defense budget is bloated and every dollar for this program is one less dollar for something that could actually help our troops.

It seems the pentagon can’t do basic math! I used to laugh at this but the humor is gone. We are wasting billions of dollars on the f35, YES BILLIONS! KILL THE F35 AND BUYP MORE F22’S! This is so simple to figure it’s pi@#$%& me off. WHAT THE FU#$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When GE is at risk of losing jobs, well everybody goes to massive lengths to get them an engine contract. But when P&W is in trouble, not many of our government bureaucrats lift a finger.

>President Obama has already said that he wouldn’t sign any defense bill with funds for the F-​​136 engine in it

no he didn’t

he said he wouldn’t sign any bill that SIGNIFICANTLY DISRUPTED THE F-35 PROGRAM to fund the F136

congress avoided that problem by providing NEW MONEY for the F136 (ie it didn’t come out of the existing F-35 budget)

and all that talk seems kind of hollow now since they were just talking about possibly cutting a handful of airframes to fund the F136 while his latest proposal is to absolutely slash the F-35 development program

any whining about a handful of airframes after the hundreds he just cut will seem slightly hypocritical

At this point, seeing that the flight test schedule is something like 10% of what it should be for the F-35, can I ask who cares what engine ends up in this plane? My new name for the F-35 is the JPPF, or Joint Power Point Fighter, since that seems to be the only place it really exists. We just need to ruin a few more careers, fire a few more uniforms in charge, and dump some more funding into this 70,000 lbs single engine fighter/boat anchor.
Can we bring back the name lead sled?

President Obama has said a lot of things that he meant. We are still waiting for him to follow through on what he meant with ANYTHING! He’s also promised a lot of things that I’m sure he meant, but still we are waiting for his promises too. Loos like to me that he’s changed his mind on all of his issues.

RSF some of the weight problems in my opinion are a side effect of the F-22 cut. Now the USAF is trying to jam everything they can into F-35.

Great idea, flight test at Pax River during the winter. Why not Edwards AFB?

To ALL.
I happen to test both the GE F110 and P&W F100 engines. I can tell all of you that it is a DAMN good thing that we have BOTH engines. I have delt wil both GE and P&W, both are terrible to deal with, but having the two competing against each other, keeps them semi honest. I guarantee you that if we only have one engine for the F-35, we will regret it badly. It doesn’t matter whether it is a GE or P&W motor. Heinz was right to insist on the second engine.
That said, I don’t believe for a minute that the F-35 can replace the F-16, F-18, A-10, and the Harrier. The Harrier sure ok, the A-10 no way in hell! I agree with to post that compared the F-35 to the F-4, I believe we are making the same mistake we made back then. The F-15SE is a much better deal than the F-35 although that is not saying much. I will also guarantee you that the SU-30 and SU-35 will fly circles around the F-35 and blow it out of the sky. But it looks like BO and Gates are hell bent on restricting all of our military’s capabilities. Pretty soon our military will consist of nothing but women and queers.

Price of JSF has nearly doubled over the last four years. It is now estimated to be $120M a copy? and the B variant another 30m per copy? And the price rise isn’t over, with so little testing completed, won’t more problems be uncovered? We need a backup plan, to keep F22, F16, F18 in production, before the Nunn law kills the project altogether?

So many out there are against the second engine, but it was just announced that P&W is looking at a firm fixed price come the fourth lot of engines. I don’t think that would have happened without competition and the F136 knocking on P&W’s door. If the F136 stays in the Game MR. GATES, you and all of our fellow tax payers will see more benefits like this come about. I’ve been in this business for 30years and have seen the good and the bad when in comes to having a primary and secondary engine. I was in the USAF for 20years working in the field maintaining aircraft and at Command Head Quarters managing the same Programs, plus I have been in the defense industry on the civilian side for 10years. I was a customer and now I’m a supplier.…I can assure you, it was hell on the F16 until the F110 came around. I was on the F15 and it was hell trying to get core engines to build up my war time readiness spares and my predecessors before me had to remove new F100 engines from new F15 aircraft and send them back to St Louis so they can ferry other F15’s coming off the production line heading to new USAF bases for reasons I won’t go into here.

I can fill this whole blog with more factual stories that would pursued you to consider competition. It does not take a genius or someone with common sense to figure you need to have competition when it comes to a propulsion system for a single engine fighter. Its prudent, its the right thing to do from a safety perspective, it provides flexibility and it will make the F35 more lethal and more affordable. All this BS about costing more and having to manage two logistics footprints is ridiculous. The F135 and F136 have several “common” areas in support equipment, technical data, parts/hardware, supply support, package/handling and storage, training, facilities, maintenance skill sets, and computer resources.…did I leave anything out? This makes up most of the logistics footprint Mr.. Gates you state would need to be doubled to manage both engines.

Mr.. Gates, we are in the digital age the age of computers and automation. Managing the F135 and F136 together at the same base even, is easier today and will be even easier tomorrow when compared to how we manage the F110 and F100 in the F16 fleets today. Additionally Mr.. Gates, the maintenance concept for the F135 and F136 in the field is half of that when compared to legacy platforms in place today. In other words, having the F136 as the alternate engine, as a competing engine, as a engine of choice for our Services and those of our Foreign Allies would be seamless.

You are correct with your assumptions. Both about engines and manning the armed forces. There valid argument that the F-110 adopted FADEC with less hassle than Pratt. That is because of United Technologies internal bureaucracy that has Hamilton doing fuel controls.

Sounds like you work for ATA. I’m sure they would be proud of you handing out your opinion so freely. As limited as it is. Just because you hook up a fuel line to an engine and watch it run does not mean you “know” those engines well.

To compare the F-35 with the supposed F-16 wars is a joke. There wasn’t a war. It was another scheme to throw GE a bone after they made financial decisions that were taking them down. Face it people GE, Boeing and LM own this country. Own it. The F-136 is not even a full engine. It is using the Augmentor and nozzle from P&W, and the Fan from RR. So, the American people are effectively paying the same amount for a core as we are for a complete engine. How does this drive down cost or improve technology? Unless GE has some magical combustor that can significantly decrease fuel consumption, then they are blowing hot air up the world’s butt.

“Pretty soon our military will consist of nothing but women and queers?”

You are truly the most ignorant person I have ever encountered.

What a short memory the Pentagon has. Dual sourcing always saves big money. Aircraft, missiles, torpedoes. The evidence is clear. With a production run of over 3,000 aircraft, we could save 30 percent with competition! And having two engines because of the possibilities of technical problems grounding an entire fleet! Wow! Why would you take that risk?

You left out the facts that the F135 has had to absorb the costs of those “common” areas. Yep, making sure that the tooling, parts/hardware and shipping have all been built to support the F135 & F136. NOT GE’s budget. You also forgot to mention that the F-136 is only a core. Not a full engine. It uses the augmentor/nozzle from F-135 and the fan from RR. How is that “common sense”?

More over, where are you people for screaming for the F-18 to have an engine war? GE monopolized that airframe and no one says a word. How is it safe for the F-18 to have one supplier but not for the F-35? And let’s take this strategy a step further: you have one airframe supplier for the F-15, F-22, F-35, C-130. You have one supplier for the avionics on most of our military airplanes. One supplier for munitions for all of our aircraft. One supplier for ejection seats. NOW, how do you feel about the safety of these planes and pilots? Still think the engine having one supplier is such a big deal?

You are an uneducated moron!!! The only thing P&W on the f-136 is the exhaust duct. The fan,lpt,cdn are RR because Rolls and GE are partners. Get it.…..

What’s wrong with what Real Knowledge said? It’s Exhaust Duct and Nozzle and RR makes and co-shares costing (design/manufacture) on the other items (Fan etc). What he said is true about other items on a plane, avionics packages, landing gear, airframe suppliers etc…think about that next time you’re so concerned about safety!

The augmentor is GE, not P&W. The airframe is a seperate issue.

Nomenclature aside…the point still stands. Right or wrong that’s no reason to call people names.

point taken

Did you loose sight of the sole sourced F18??? You must live in Ohio

“You are truly the most ignorant person I have ever encountered.”

Personally I think he has something of a point. What the lefties want to do will open up the military to a load of lawsuits, politically correct garbage, and reverse discrimination that will lead to more lousy officers, less capable soldiers, lower morale, and all sorts of other nasty side effects.

That is what fanatical political correctness does.

Engine for F-18 was chosen through a competitive process and additionally the F-18 was not at the time designated to replace nearly the entire fleet of fighter aircraft in the US arsenal. And yes I live in Ohio.

What engine was offered by Pratt? The JSF, despite initial claims will only replace the F-16 and a few of the other Navy/Marine planes like the Harrier. The initial claim that it will replace the –16, F-15, A-10 and Harrier is completely out to lunch. My only put in this whole argument is let’s say the cost savings are true, claims that are still up to debate, and if they are true, those cost savings aren’t going to be truly garnered until we’re well into full up production (5~6 yrs from now). We’re so far into a fiscal mess right now, it’s not worth it.…and that’s if GE’s engine has zero problems. Which let’s be honest, GE is a competent Aerospace company but they aren’t perfect either, they’ll have their own growth problems in those years as well.

OK I’m not an AIRDALE so I’m only aksing a question here. If the reason we need the new aircraft is to be faster, bigger payload, climb higher, and low radar. It seems to me that by reskinning the F16 and F18 and making it a twin engine (using the current designed equipment) then we would meet all these requirements. I’m still against sharing our current technology with other countries though considering we dont really get along good with any of them and could be on opposing sides at any time in the future. especialy France — we gave them a washington class FBM sub and they gave all the technology to russia who came out with the yankee class soon afterwards.

The problem with this country and the fiscal mess that it is in is do to the short-sidedness of the politicians. They would rather grab the low hanging, short term savings instead of what will help the country over the long hall. Not my problem that Pratt didn’t have an engine in the thrust range of the F404/F414 to offer. Still doesn’t take away from the fact that F-35 propulsion system wasn’t chosen through competition.

I’m not saying it’s “your” problem they didn’t offer an engine for the F18, but you made the claim it was a competitive process though. The real reason why Pratt didn’t get a contract on the F18 is because the Navy didn’t like Pratt at the time (with very good reason) and they didn’t think Pratt would be capable of getting the thrust to weight ratio needed for the F18, they thought they were going to fail like they did for the later versions of the F14. The F119 — F120 competition was what decided this whole debate way back when they chose the F22 over the F23. The F119 was the chosen engine. The F135 is a derivative of the F119. GE didn’t have an engine in the mix when the JSF program first started because the F119 was in full production and it allowed for Pratt to offer an (derivative) engine a lot quicker. And I disagree on your other point, the short sightedness of our politicians is due to the fact that they will not cut ANY low-hanging fruit at all, give congress a credit card and they’ll max it out and then come back and ask for more. That’s what’s wrong with this country.

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