Imagine a 70 Ton GCV

Imagine a 70 Ton GCV

Uber-connected defense consultant and analyst Loren Thompson reads the tea leaves, and a recent Reuters news article, and concludes that Army plans for a new Ground Combat Vehicle (GCV) may be unraveling. Apparently, DOD’s chief weapons buyer, Ashton Carter, didn’t like what he saw when shown the Army’s GCV plan earlier this month and told service leaders to go back and try again.

The GCV request for proposal was supposed to hit the street later this month. Thompson thinks it will be delayed. Even if the RFP does come out on time, he sees the new vehicle program running into real headwinds.

If this Reuters story is to be believed, and I’m not sure it is, the Army’s pitch had the GCV weighing in at 70 tons, which is as much as the M-1 Abrams main battle tank weighs. I can see how that would give Carter fits.


The GCV is supposed to be an infantry fighting vehicle. At 70 tons, that would make it the heaviest infantry fighting vehicle in existence; heavier even than the Israeli military’s heaviest infantry carriers such as the Achzarit, a chopped down T-55 tank weighing 44 tons or the Nagmachon, based on the Centurion tank chassis, which weighs 55 tons.

The Israeli’s can get away with extremely heavy infantry carriers because they drive down the highway to their battles. The U.S. Army must either fly or put their vehicles on ships to get them to where they fight. While protected mobility is clearly important, and a costly lesson learned on Iraq and Afghan battlefields, strategic mobility must factor in at some point.

The Army’s stated goals for the GCV, according to Army chief Gen. George Casey’s just released Brigade Combat Team Modernization Plan, is “carrying an infantry squad, to equal or surpass the under-belly protection offered by MRAP, the off-road mobility and side protection of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, and operational mobility of the Stryker.” Casey acknowledges that getting all that in a single vehicle will be a tall order.

Getting MRAP level under-belly protection is more a matter of hull design, the now industry standard V-shaped hull, and ground clearance than armor thickness. The Bradley, like the proposed GCV, was designed from the outset to allow “block” improvements, and it has received a number of new armor packages. According to armor vehicle expert Steven Zaloga, the Bradley’s appliqué steel armor provides protection up to 30mm auto-cannon. Reactive armor tiles would add protection against rocket propelled grenades. All of which adds up to a vehicle weighing at least 40 tons.

One of the problems, as Thompson sees it, is the proliferation of precision, heavy anti-tank guided missiles of the Kornet and TOW variety. The only solution he sees is technologically advanced armor packages, including an active-protection system of some kind. Thompson’s “insiders” tell him those needed technologies won’t really be available in mass production terms until around 2025. As Thompson puts it: “It appears the Army is spinning its wheels (or its treads), because the laws of physics won’t allow it to design a system that is both easily deployable and highly survivable against emerging threats.”

Then there is the whole issue of the much vaunted battle command network that was such a big part of FCS. “Even if it is a clear leap ahead in terms of capability, there is the question of what to do about the elaborate battlefield network Boeing developed to link together the family of future combat vehicles. It may look world-class today, but how will it look in 15 years, when the new vehicle finally starts reaching the troops in quantity?” Thompson says.

Both the Abrams and Bradley have a lot of life in them. The Army claims its battle fleet is outdated. To use the Israelis as an example again, they have continually upgraded and modified really old fighting vehicles — the Centurion, T-54/55, M-113, they even used Shermans in the ’73 war – to keep them relevant and useful on modern battlefields. The Army plans to buy at least two more brigades worth of the Stryker wheeled vehicle, its medium-weight platform.

Facing a very uncertain fiscal future, and having done a questionable job of identifying the capability gap for a new, heavily armored IFV in the era of irregular wars, the Army is likely to have a tough job pushing ahead with one big and heavy GCV.

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There is a big difference between need and nice to have. Right now the Bradley, the Stryker, and the M-ATV get the job done. If the technology isn’t there to economically give us the toys we want and what we have now is good enough, then we can probably afford to wait. I’m not the Bradley’s biggest fan and I know each platform has its issues, but if the only way we can get what we want right now is to make the infantry carrier so heavy it can’t go anywhere and we’ll spend billions trying to defy the laws of physics in the short term (EFV), then what’s the point?

Nice write up, Grant. But I’d like to see better sources than a talking head with no military experience. Surely, you can find someone with a ground equipment background? Like a retired tanker?

General Casey (as usual) just doomed his own vehicle with that silly set of requirements. Protection of a MRAP against IED’s, side protection and mobility of a Bradley cross country and the operational mobility of a Stryker?

Good Morning Folks,

Well I guess light, lean, mean and air deployable is out. Maybe this is what Boeing and the lobbyists wanted all along for the FCS. What’s next Crusader 2?

Just to add some chuckles to this story. It appears the Russians last week started talks with the French to buy or contract to build the French Leclerc Series 2 Tank. The Russian hybrid T-90 turret on a T-72 haul is pretty much in the cra**er. A Russian source says that there is a problem with balancing the welded turret with the new 125mm gun. Or like the source said. “… it like a good Russian woman, to big up top to light down below.”

Since the LHD deal turned into a give away by the French dropping the price from a high of $800 euros to a sell at $300 euros minus weapon systems, the French are ready to deal. With only 796 Leclerc 2’s built (409 for France and 390 for UAE) and orders for The Russian Federation for 1,000–1,500 it would be pretty had to say no to.

What does this have to do with the US, the Russians appear ready to get out of the tank business, this would be major blow for China who relies on Russian technology for its tanks.

As for the US with another 130 Strykers ordered last month from Government Motors and more to come, and I don’t know how many thousands MRAP’s coming back from the box that the Army and Marines are going to have to find homes for. I don’t see any pressing need for quite awhile for mo’ armor.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

“To use the Israelis as an example again, they have continually upgraded and modified really old fighting vehicles — the Centurion, T-​​54/​55, M-​​113, they even used Shermans in the ’73 war – to keep them relevant and useful on modern battlefields.”

Well, but is that really true? The upgrades keep the vehicles relevant to modern _Israeli_ battlefields, but the Israelis aren’t going to send an entire armored division to the other side of the planet on a few weeks’ notice to defend the Fulda Gap.

Just read an article in Defense Daily about a Stryker with a new hull design, double “V”. According to the article it provides MRAP-like protection from mines and IED’s. If they could get the power to weight ratio up, increase the armor package to 30mm and keep it at 60K lbs, it might be a good compromise.

The Army is buying new Strykers, is getting ready to update the Strykers it already has…is updating Bradley’s…is going to upgrade its MRAPs and M-ATVs.…and now is starting a program for a next generation combat vehicle?

The Army’s confused. Interim Strykers have been used to reconfigure the US Army. They’re stuck with them for a generation. The US Army should deal with it.

Good Evening Folks,

If in fact a monster 70 ton is being talked up I would suggest that a good look be take ant the German WW II Tiger II. Before everybody flips out, yes I know the technology of tanks has advanced a great deal, I know that there were obvious design flaws, to small of an engine for example, that could have been addressed but weren’t, but it would appear that there is weight limitation to an armored vehicle where it is no longer a viable weapon. It’s no longer nimble on the battle field, to heavy for muddy roads and fields, and loses the ability to defend itself as the Tiger II did.

The Abrams right now seems to be about the proper balance for a heavy tank. The only change that I’ve heard that might be made to the M-1 is the improved high velocity 120mm rifled gun that the Merkava’s uses, the current up grade retains the same smooth bore 120mm cannon that has been successful for the past twenty years, go with what works isn’t a bad choice either.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

a 70-ton GCV?! They might as well call it the BFT “Big Fat Target.” With the proliferation of man-portable anti-armor weapons, I don’t see this making sense. I’m sure it will have a nice “quiet” signature to sneak up on the enemy. Well, scratch that, ever hear a M1’s turbine engine? Sounds like a jet getting ready for take-off. Well, what about the hearts and minds, as the saying goes? Riding around in huge land ships might win battles, but it won’t win the war, at least the irregular kind. I’d say stick with what they have until they figure out what they really want first. Also, the army has a lot of sunk investment in the strykers and MRAPs, so they will have to live with them for the next 25 years (at least) as others have commented.

When we get a BOLO?

The entire army isn’t structured as Stryker Brigades. Having portions of the army structured as fast responders that can be more easily deployed with other units more heavily equipped makes more sense then having an army of Strykers. MRAP and M-ATVs aren’t really combat vehicles which was always the Army’s issues with those. From a function and purpose stand point MRAPs and M-ATVs are just higher survivability humvees and shouldn’t be part of this discussion, beyond wanting certain features common to those vehicles.

MRAPS are not any sort of infantry fighting vehicle. They are at best mine resistant combat taxis. Second the money invested into the Stryker was invested with the understanding that it was an iterim vehicle used till something else could be developed. This is attempting to be the something else.

On the proliferation of man portable anti-tank missiles. Those will rip apart almost anything. So does that mean you protect soldiers less against less capable but cheaper, more readily available weapons? The logical end to what you’re saying is to put soldiers into the armored aluminum vehicles that have already bean proven to be inadequate. With all the man portable anti-tank missiles very few Abrams and other heavily armored vehicles have been lost to them.

today we don’t need that, because one missile is not to expensive and dstroy one tank in one long distance.
just good against IED and low rocket launchers
cold war is end, today that was air supremacy with missile , space info, and fast deployment.

I was expecting most GCV proposals to weigh around 40 tons, perhaps 50 tons with modular armor. Yet 70 tons? The M1A2 SEP weights in at some 68 tons. With the TUSK kit it probably weighs a full 70 tons. While the Abrams has proven to be reliable, extremely well protected, and can still move fast thanks to its 1,500 HP engine, there are some drawbacks to such heavy vehicles. You can only fit one combat ready Abrams in a C-17A and two non-combat ready Abrams in a C-5M. Not all bridges can carry such a weight, and the Abrams uses plenty of fuel, although a newer engine could reduce fuel consumption.
Back in the 1970s during the development of what became the Bradley IFV, the Army ruled out “heavy” IFVs for various reasons, particularly cost and maintenance concerns. However the Army’s position seems to have changed a few times in more recent years. For example the M2/M3 have seen significant armor enhancements over the years, beyond the 14.5mm MG protection it was supposed to provide and the Stryker could see plenty of changes as well.

During the 1990s “Armored Systems Modernization” program, the plan was to develop a new series of vehicles including the Block III MBT, the FIFV, the AFAS, and a new engineering vehicle. These would be based on the common heavy-protection chassis, use many shared components, and would replace the Abrams, Bradley, and Paladin. The FIFV would share the same level of armor as the MBT. While I don’t believe desired weights were ever specified, the MBT was likely to weigh less than 62 tons, and the other variants less. Discussions ranged from 45 to 60 tons. There was also the common medium-protection chassis that would be used as the basis for a few other vehicles. However the plan came apart during the Clinton years and the sole survivor was the AFAS which became the Crusader. However this was cancelled due to the “Future Combat Systems” concept.

Now GCV will certainly be heavier than the 20–25 ton vehicles FCS was to introduce, but I think it is very unlikely we will see something heavier than 50 tons for this (first?) GCV variant. There are also steps in “M1A3” upgrade concepts to reduce the Abram’s weight. Could we see GCV turn into something similar to the ASM program? Unlikely perhaps, but it is clear the Army is looking at a wide array of options.

While I am all for heavy armour, 70 tons seems a tad much.

… Forget about all of this 70+ ton’s it a sure deal that we’ll be fighting everybody’s war for them just do what we have been doing for the past 20 year’s store all our equiptment on Diego Garcia… this would save us a lot of trouble if we don’t look in on our own goverment spending we will loose our place in line just like the Russian’s did they go broke trying to keep up with us and fighting a war that we were supply the arm’s and see what we are doing now?.….. making it safe so they can pump their oil across the frontier of netural nation’s. I submitted a copy of all the best part’s of all the SP 155mm howlesters engine, transmission,ton age on armor etc.the Swiss ‚French,Germany,Netherlands the best of every country and you know it was turned down ? cost excuse me !!! the swiss of all nation’s had the best mobile as they are a country with mass mountains and they brought in the best gun so why don’t we try to use other country’s ideal’s in make something that is lighter and better suited for the next generation’s to come

I thought everyone had forgotten the fulda gap by now.
nice reference

the israeli argument is apples and oranges

i think the pressing need is for someway to combat IED injuries and deaths

the first however should be the metal and physical health care of our existing and past soldiers
its absolutely embarasssing to me how we treat them

maybe we should have unmanned vehicles on the ground like the uav fleet???

No — this is NOT what “Boeing and the lobbyists wanted all along for FCS”. Boeing is out of the game. As far as I can tell, the Army is flying this puppy alone. When we heard about the Army dropping manned ground vehicles out of the program last spring, I said that the Army simply is not ready to give up the main battle tank…but I would never have imagined that they would try to baseline the whole family of armored vehicles on an M-1 chassis. No, for that kind of logic, you need to think GD. There are common sense solutions to this problem. Too bad I’m not reading them here.

Geography: The other side of the world from the Fulda gap is near New Zealand in the ocean.
History flash: The ‘iron curtain’ has been down for a (young) generation.
Newsflash: Brussels wants all nuclears gone — those defended the gap…

P.S. The IDF did send their tanks to Alexandria and almost to Damascus, M-51s included.

Geography : im fairly certain the the other side of the world isnt an exact location
History flash : Putin cant get it up any more so now he thinks its fun to fly bombers at us almost daily
They are also selling heavy weapons to any russian company that wants them. Theres your next major tank war.
Newsflash : Brussels hasnt been relavent since the middle ages — I even hate their sprouts

P.S. Ive hit golf balls father than the distance from the Israeli border to Damascus
Alexandria??? — which one? Egypt or Virginia?

how is that working out for you anyway?
trying to be clever I mean

Byron Skinner,

Once again you demonstrate you have no clue what you are talking about. There is no ‘improved high velocity 120mm rifled gun that the Merkava’s uses’. The Merkava Mk 3 & Mk 4 us an Israeli made 120mm smooth-bore that is essentially identical to the German Rh 120 L44 & US M256 — specifications are such that ammunition is interchangable (requiring only the proper ballistic computer round data for accuracy). The Abrams Gun upgrade that DOES exist is the XM360. A ‘light weight’ (lighter than Rh 120 L44/M256) gun meant for the MGS. It is designed such that if/when needed the gun can be quickly/easily modified to 140mm.

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