Ospreys Swoop In For Ambushes

Ospreys Swoop In For Ambushes

The Marines are using Ospreys to help set up ambush kill boxes as they hunt the Taliban around Marja, a source familiar with the issue tells us. This may help put paid to the criticism that Ospreys are basically really fancy flying buses. If they are being used where lead is flying and playing a key combat role it’s pretty hard to disregard them, unless you can also disregard assets like Bradleys and Strykers.

The Marines have been generally willing to talk up the performance of the Osprey tiltrotors in Afghanistan, they have been pretty quiet about just how they have been used in combat situations. For example, Col. Kevin Vest, commander of Marine aviation over in Afghanistan, and Lt. Gen. George Trautman, deputy commandant for aviation, told my colleague Christian Lowe that a commando raid late last week by Marine Force Reconnaissance troops and Afghan commandos near Marja relied on the MV-22 Osprey.

Here’s what Christian reported at our sister site Kit Up:


Vest said he’d held the Ospreys back as a QRF in case the Taliban tried to make trouble in far-off spots of the AO while 4,000 Marines were committed to Marja. The only other high profile time the Osprey had been used during the operation was to extract civilians bodies killed in an errant HIMARS strike from the town during a daylight mission. That’s the one where an Osprey came under fire from RPGs and small arms.

For the raid this morning, which took place at 0200 Afghan time, a group of 120 Force Recon and Afghan National Army troops were inserted by three MV-22s in two waves into an “enemy controlled area” to serve as a blocking force for 3/6. The ACE for that raid included Harriers, Hueys and Cobras and a variety of UAVs and C2 platforms to count bad guy heads and keep them down.

The ACE in Afghanistan has a compliment of 10 Ospreys, but will soon receive two more from the squadron attached to the 24th MEU which helped out in Haiti. Those MV-22s will fly from the Red Sea when the MEU moves out of the Suez all the way to Afghanistan making one refueling stop, Trautman said.

Also, Kit Up has learned that three of the Ospreys in theater have the BEA Systems Remote Guardian underbelly gun system, with two more yet to be installed. Trautman said the Corps had received $30 million to buy more. Vest added that the gun hasn’t yet been fired in anger.

While it’s true that the gun wasn’t used in anger, the Ospreys were, our source says, used in a unique way with Cobras to build a kill box into which they drove Taliban fighters. This is roughly the way it worked. The Cobras followed the Taliban, who know helicopter capabilities and tactics as well as any ground force in the world. The Taliban carefully headed out through valleys on their way to safety, thinking the Cobras were all they had to worry about. But we understand that the Marines sent some of those Ospreys which are still being criticized as being used as fancy flying buses up and around and behind the Taliban. Their ability to fly faster than regular rotorcraft allowed them to get behind the Taliban. They landed and deployed their Marines, who then boxed the Taliban in.

We can’t go into details, but we understand these tactics succeeded in the capture and death of some Taliban fighters.

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Unless the Taliban are moving around on very fast ground vehicles, wouldn’t any helicopter be able to get around them to box them in? And exactly what ground vehicle is fast enough to keep pace with a helicopter?

I know the V-22 is quite capable (although I don’t like it as a technical soultion — the Marines just needed a flying box, not a bastardization of an airplane and a helicopter), but journalists need to use common sense when it comes to sorting out facts and fiction (or public relations sales jobs).

I don’t think this will quiet too many of those opposed to the V22, but its great to see it being used according to its design.

As far as an ecompassing maneuvers go its about sending the Cobra at fastest speed to intercept while something else departing at roughly the same time travels a circuitous route to get behind the enemy with enough buffer room to be of some surprise. That requires a speed that helicopters don’t neccessarly have. Cobra has a speed of about 220mph. Huey is about 130mph. V22 is 350mph. The fastest helicopter iin the world is 240mph.

The reason V-22 is what it is, is because the Marines didn’t just need a flying box. They needed a flying box with improved range, speed, and VTOL capabilities. Helicopters because of the nature of how they produce lift have a theoretical maximum speed, where if they fly too fast they lose lift and fall out of the sky. This is not something that can be worked around in any significant way. First is that as a helicopter attempts to fly that fast more and more of the retreating blade would enter a “stall” condition and would lose lift, eventually the entire length of the retreating blade would stall. Simultaneously you pressure building up on the leading edge of the blades, this creates an envelope that increases drag, the compressability of the air in that area reduces the effectiveness of splitting the airflow, the aircraft again loses lift. This puts the maximum rotor velocity at the furthest edge at about 300mph, capping the max speed and lift to whatever that can generate.

John,

My source could not provide me some of the details. I believe they are probably classified. (don’t want to know…) The source is one of the most reliable with whom I deal and has no reason to make this stuff up. We’ll see what comes out as Marja calms down.

Those sound like VNE speeds, not cruise speeds. They wouldn’t fly that fast except in a dive, don’t base your arguments on something like that. I doubt they fly in a straight line for very long over bad-guy country anyway, so factor that in as well.

That’s an interesting tactic the Marines employed, keep switching things up, keep them off balance. I like it!

I demand a retraction because clearly the Osprey can’t do this…the critics said so. (/sarcasm…it’s exactly how I’ve been suggesting they’d use it for rapid envelopment purposes. Get the boots down somewhere that the enemy thinks they can’t be and zip away before revealing the ruse.)

ooh-raa go get em marines

The more the V-22 is flown the more we will info on its time to failure of a major system. Reliability is key to a good bird. Engine & transmission failure can be survived in a helo, but how do you land a V-22 with a problem?

The V-22 in the hands of a good commander is just as valuable as the Huey was in Nam…Good intel and knowledge of tactics may prove it’s worth…We will see and hope for the best outcome…

If one engine fails, the good one keeps both proprotors spinning. They can’t autorotate. That much I know.

If the cross-shaft somehow fails or the blades get shot off? ..I can’t imagine the lift/ drag is too good on that bird. I’d guess keep it straight as possible, find an open spot, and I’m thinking a space shuttle-like landing profile. Steep descent, time the pitch up to reduce the vertical V as much as you can at impact. Maybe the wings lift better than I’m crediting them. That’s only if it was in forward flight, obviously. If it was in helo mode and one rotor disappeared?… without plenty of altitude, adios.

Hopefully an Osprey driver will show up and tell me I’m full of it.

I realize that Bell-Boeing pays your salaries indirectly at military​.com, but please hide your fake “reporting better”. Your secret “source” of a transport ambushing the Taliban? Just absurd! Have you no self respect Mr. Clark?

The science of helicopter is still true and still the basis for the principle advantage of a V22 over a helicopter.

Besides that cruise speed for the Osprey is 208mph. A huey is 115mph. A Cobra is 170mph.

Those Force Recon boys must have been freaking having to take along ANA guys.…. Surprised any afghan of any political stripe would survive that mission.… And your speeds are nonsense. Take all of them times .5. The only problem I have with the Osprey is it is just looks so vulnerable in vtol mode.… really.….. A guy on the ground in downwash and dirt has a better chance of hitting you with an RPG than you do of hitting him with that single gun and brownie hawkeye rube goldberg setup on the v22.… When one of these bites it.…I hope the Senior Marine Airman on scene has the bawls and branes.…to take a plasma cutter and make some holes in that thing and mount some M2.….real effing guns.….. go get em Jheads.…..

@ Carter,

Well the C-47 did it at Normandy and the C130 did it in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you know anything about military letter designators then you will notice the C’s at the beginning of those aircraft. I don’t see why its so hard for you to see that a tilt rotor that fly almost as fast as a normal plane can do it… As long as you have a driving force in the middle (in this case a Cobra attack helo) and something just as quick to get around the side( in this case a V22) than it will work. It’s ” inside the box ” thinking like yours that never allows the worth of a weapons system to be exploited.
Nick

Thanks, Jeff and company, for providing some of the technical capabilities of this odd bird. When I say the Marines settled for a helicopter solution when they needed an aviation solution I meant that it they had looked over at the Marine version of the JSF (F-35), they could have adapted a smaller version of the jet engine/turbo lift fan, and put one set on each side of a wider helo box. That way they’d avoid that big footprint of the V-22 blades, would be more manuveurable, and would be able to carry more. The design I’m thinking of is that flying box from the film “Aliens” where they just drop down from the mothership and roll out an armored personnel carrier. That technology is available now that a decent turbo lift fan has been developed.

It’s not the technology,it’s the cost of the technology and WHO has the funs to pay for it. Each of you need to understand all of the Military units there need suport from each of us,so lets work together and stop all the bad mouth of who knows more than the other.

Aside from the obvious discussion about the Osprey’s pros and con’s, I am just glad Force Recon Marines got to be unleashed.

How many times have our spec-ops folks been tamed down on standby by some jealous
commander in their history? The enemy just met one of the best shock troops in service today!

Most Army commanders would resist this call, but as you can see, this is new day with a new way! Gen. Mc knows his pieces of the puzzle.

The best thing a reporter can do is report only the facts dont adlib to make story. This is where the people lose fath in reporters and the people they work for. The only way to get across to your readers is to report only the proven or provable facts of your story. This is how you can build suport and suport of your readers.

The real issue is do the Marines riding in it love it!

I love the MARINES they will kill and inspire fear and respect anywhere on this planet.

So if they like their flying box I could care less! I just want them to be happy when they come home!

I thinks some military hardware is garbage, but the military is getting better and better at bringing new tech to the battlefield in very short time frames. Some will be great, some won’t. But I refuse to sit in my chair drinking coffee while checking out a great looking barista and speculate on what the marines need or like on the other side of the planet.

Grow up everyone! Enter Reality for a minute! If you want to know what marines think, find one and ask him! Just be sure to say Thank You!

I hope you have as great a day as I will.
Jeff

The V-22 promised to lift 15,000 lbs (its bigger than the CH-53E in empty weight) yet its down to around 6000 lbs, well below the contract guarantee. It has less range than comparable modern helos, and about one-fifth the payload, costs twice as much to buy and maintain, and is broke down half the time. This is why only 10 of the Corps 130 V-22s are deployed in combat. For details, google for “V-22 scandal”

This is why no one else will touch the thing. Not the Army, Not the Navy, no foreign buyers, and no airlines. The USAF SpecOps people are stuck with their CV-22 buy, but are now demanding new CH-53s since the V-22 can’t lift half their stuff.

It’s true the Marines get stuck with some equipment that don’t always fit the mission but tell a Marine to make it happen and you can bet it will.

Less range than modern helos? The V-22 has an empty range of 1100 miles, whereas the CH-47 and CH-53 only have a range of about 500 miles. The payload depends on range. The more weight you carry, the shorter your range. If the V-22 is carrying 6,000 pounds, then it can only go 500 or so miles. All cargo aircraft have the same characteristics. The CH-47 can carry about 30,000 pounds, but its going to fly a hell of a lot less than the 500 miles I stated before. The CH-46, which the V-22 directly replaces, can only carry 6,000 pounds and has an empty range of 400 miles.

There are only 10 of the birds in theater (with 2 more on the way) because that’s what the current mission requirement is. Its a 12 aircraft squadron. If the MEB commander hasn’t asked for another squadron, that’s between him and his superiors. It was designed to replace the CH-46 and some CH-53Ds, not every helicopter in the Corps.

In a large open area the V-22s can move more troops in and drop more equipment faster than Hueys or CH-53s when time is the essential factor because of it’s speed not always lifting capability. Don’t always think more is better. A good Commander will look at what equipment he or she has and assign it to a mission when a CH-53 was the better aircraft.

The V-22 does not have an empty range of 1100 miles. That was a goal that was never met. It can fly maybe 800 if it carries two aux fuel tanks and no cargo, and takes off from an airfield. The V-22s range myth was dispelled by America’s leading helicopter expert a couple years back. http://​www​.rusi​.org/​d​o​w​n​l​o​a​d​s​/​a​s​s​e​t​s​/​L​e​i​s​h​m​a​n​_​020...

As for speed, its around 30% faster at higher altitudes, a cruise speed of around 210 knots with all the weight that has been added. It cabin is 25% smaller than even the CH-46E. check http://​www​.boeing​.com It can’t carry external loads any faster, and never does in combat zones because its too unstable in that mode.

The verdict is still out on this new aircraft. The maintenance crews, the flight crews and the gyrenes that fly in and out of them will be the only valid authority to judge its combat effectiveness.

The V-22 doing part of what it was planned to do. Very good to see.

However the defense gun configuration leaves something to be desired. What happened to the originally concept of a .50 cal GAU-19 under the nose section?

“In a large open area” That’s a key statement here. Especially when you don’t have a LARGE open area to operate in…

Don’t you have anything else to do Jimmy?

While I agree that the V-22 has advantages over a helo, those cruise speeds are off by a significant margin in all the aircraft but the Huey. The AH-1W usually flies slower than that, the V-22 cruises MUCH faster, and besides, aircraft work in knots, not MPH.

Look, you can believe a liberal crackpot, or you can believe someone who flies it. I’ve flown 800 miles in a Block A aircraft with no aux tanks. It can be done. Block B, no sweat, and I wouldn’t need a runway or aux tanks.

The V-22s cruise speed is higher than 210. I don’t know where reports get these numbers, because they obviously don’t come from actual pilots.

If you pick some weird measurement of the biggest box you could fit into an aircraft, maybe the cabin is 25% smaller. Me, having spent 4.5yrs in the phrog and almost 6 in the V-22, I eyeball them both the same. I ain’t buying that figure.

I have no beef with Marines using the Osprey, but I do with this type of reporting.

I agree with David Dopp, Carter and John King, just report the facts without the adlib.

“Ambush kill boxes” sound exciting. But all this is unrealistic in the Marjah situation where the Marines are not fighting some highly mobile force. The aircraft were used to insert a blocking force. Period. Proper use of any troop carrying aircraft deploying troops far from the action.

No.John ‚we are not there yet.The most similar at the dropship could be the Excalibur or the Israel Flying Ambulance and they are still not operational prototipes.You still need sustentation planes(wings) to fly .You could make a small drone but not a big aircraft.

I STILL DONT UNDERSTAND , WHY ARE THIS WAR MONGERING PEOPLE DOING IN OTHER COUNTRY THAN THEIR OWN HOMES . KILLING, PLUNDERING IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE, DEMCRACY. ALL OF YOU WILL PAY. THE DEATH OF YOUR CONQUERING SOLDIER. WE WILL FIGHT YOU AROUND THE WORLD. IN THE NAME OF ALLAH ! YOUR BLOOD WILL BE SPILL AROUND THE WORLD

Abdul, pls, sit down and chill bro..have some tea. After all, Jews, Moslems and Christians are ALL Abrahamic religions, its just ur minds telling you its OK to blow urself up around innocents, crash planes into buildings, etc. You find anything wrong with that? After all, we ALL worship the same GOD..well, get ur suicide vest while those swine that tell you to do it live in splendor…you should re-acess, inshallah…sound right?

ABDUL DO YOU HEAR YOUR SELF? WHAT KIND OF PERSON GO’S OUT STRAPS ON A WEPON OF ANY KIND AND WALKS INTO A PLACE FULL OF CHILDREN AND WOMAN WHO JUST WANT TO LIVE IN PEACE, AND BLOWS HIMSELF UP BECAUSE SOME MAD MAN TOLD HIM THAT GOD TOLD HIM IT’S THE THING TO DO? IF YOU BELIEVE IN GOD NOMATTER WHAT NAME HE GO’S BY DOES NOT TELL YOU OR ANYBODDY ELSE TO KILL OR HURT ANY LIVING CREATURE. LEARN TO READ YOUR HOLY BIBLE IT WILL UP LIFT YOUR HART AND MIND.

The extra speed gives the V-22 force the ability to choose a best location over a wider area for the bocking force insertion. The best location may only be accessible with the faster speed.

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