More F-16s Little Help To Taiwan

More F-16s Little Help To Taiwan

Last week, Taiwan stepped up pressure on the Obama administration to sell it new, upgraded F-16s, something this administration, like the Bush administration before it, refuses to do. The latest Taiwanese move came from its defense ministry, which released a report saying that China’s continued modernization of its fighter fleet has shifted the cross-strait military balance decidedly in China’s favor.

The report says Taiwan’s ageing fleet of some 400 locally built fighters, French made Mirage 2000s, and 146 F-16A/Bs, are outmatched by China’s massive fighter fleet, particularly with China’s growing numbers of Russian built Su-30s. Only Taiwan’s F-16A/Bs have an edge over Chinese fighter aircraft, the report says. Taiwan requested some 66 F16C aircraft from the U.S. in 2006.

Over at right-leaning think tank AEI’s defense blog, Michael Mazza raises the alarm:


“Are policymakers considering the implications of this? The smaller and more antiquated the Taiwan air force is, the greater the number of American pilots in harm’s way should the U.S. ever need to go to the island’s defense. It’s not clear that anybody is doing this math, as simple as it is.”

Actually, RAND did the math on this one in a report last year, in typical RAND style, using sophisticated modeling to simulate a Chinese invasion of Taiwan in the 2010–2015 timeframe. RAND’s conclusion was that the addition of a few dozen upgraded F-16s would have little to no impact on the cross-strait balance. In fact, RAND found that in the event of a Chinese attack, “the air war for Taiwan could essentially be over before much of the Blue air force has even fired a shot.”

It’s not the Chinese air fleet that would deliver the knock out blow to Taiwanese air power. Rather, its China’s massive arsenal of ballistic missiles that would destroy most Taiwanese aircraft in an opening salvo, even those in hardened shelters. They would also wreck Taiwanese runways before they could launch their fighters.

Adding new F-16s to Taiwan’s inventory does little to change the ultimate outcome. Well, more Taiwanese aircraft would make a small contribution RAND found: “Taiwan’s air power can at least contribute to the anti-invasion defense by absorbing as much of China’s air effort as possible in the process of being put out of action.” In other words, parking more fighters on Taiwan’s ramps would make the Chinese deplete more of its missile magazines.

The answer to the cross-strait military balance will not come in the form of more short range tactical fighters sat on ramps within range of China’s massive missile force. As the RAND study conclusively shows, selling Taiwan more capable F-16s does nothing to change the military balance.

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The answer to the cross-strait military balance will not come in the form of more short range tactical fighters sat on ramps within range of China’s massive missile force. As the RAND study conclusively shows, selling Taiwan more capable F-16s does nothing to change the military balance.
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In other words borrow more so we can ward off a possible attack from our banker.

If Taiwan is paying full price, should we really complain? The Chinese should be reminded “don’t try anything” despite our current economic ties.

Please if they want to buy rocket propelled marshmellows, aircraft or whatever and we have so many folsk without jobs and they are paying full price why do we care. why do think we (rand or any other think tank jnow what is right for some other nation). Oh i forgot we think we are in control of the entire world.

Sell ‘em F-22s as long as they are willing to pay full price.

Good Evening Folks,

I’m with Drake 1 on this, the Rand Report although not much, and mostly fantasy comes to that rather ambiguous conclusion. What we have is a choice of one of two propositions.

A. What the hell sell the F-16’s to Taiwan anyway, it doesn’t matter either way and the US needs jobs. Show the Commie Chinese that they don’t control US foreign policy and we will sell weapons ti who ever we want to.

Or.

B. Don’t sell the Taiwanese the F-16’s, they are not a determining factor in the islands defenses, it will only piss off the Chinese and force them into a retaliatory response.

Although I don’t think much of Rand report, it make the J-10 into a super fighter which from the information that I seen can be determined at this time, the report take only at face value does present a clear cut choice, witch is a novelty in itself for a change.

I vote for B.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

…so the Taiwanese should just give up and rejoin the motherland?

I agree with the commenters above who don’t take that RAND report too seriously. It is full of serious flaws and both overestimates Chinese capabilities and underestimates the capabilities and responses of both the US and Taiwan. I have a problem with assuming that China will be able to pull off what would likely be the greatest first strike of all time and completely wipe out Taiwan’s ability to put aircraft in the air. I doubt that the Chinese think they could do it either. I think that realistically, China hopes to be able to seriously degrade the ability of the ROCAF to sortie in the event of a conflict breaking out. But they probably assume that the ROCAF will get some aircraft up and they will have to engage those. There is plenty of documentation that suggests that the ROCAF is less than entirely satisfied with their Mirage-2000s(other ROCAF aircraft are largely obsolete) and would like to have more F-16s which they see as capable against the airframes that the Chinese are currently using. Suggesting that new F-16s would not improve Taiwan’s air defenses is incorrect. This will ultimately probably be decided for political reasons and only for political reasons, but more F-16s would make a greater impact than this article suggests.

How long does it take Chinese missiles to reach Taiwan’s airfields?

How long will it take the Taiwan Air Defense system to detect those missiles and to relay a launch message?

How many aircraft will the Taiwan Air Force be able to launch before the missiles strike?

Why not just give the Chinese Taiwan, as we have clearly delegated our National Sovereignity to them via the massive amount of our debt they control? I do fear that the Chinese have an amazing amount of control over our foreign policy and it will only get worse as time and our debt pass by.
Having said that, I think Taiwan is already gone if China decides it really wants to take it. There is little we could do without current military so committed globally with ever shrinking assets.

“I think Taiwan is already gone if China decides it really wants to take it. There is little we could do without current military so committed globally with ever shrinking assets.”

Fortunately, not many others share this opinion including the Chinese themselves.

Just sell them what they need, while promoting peace with China. And tell them what is best for their defense system if China were to attack Taiwan.

The nuclear option to end the China mess once and for all.

h answer to the Taiwan issue is not Aircraft but Submarines. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that with Sub’s of the coast of China Taiwan would have a a first strike capability as well as a second strike. Sell them everything they want, we need the jobs and we need the money and when China gets done with Taiwan they are going to come after us. They aren’t building a giant “Blue water” fleet to invade Taiwan they are challenging us or at least will be and with the Obamarama Circus in the white house we don’t stand a chance. Piss off the Chinese, what are they going to do? stop lending us money? good because the debt the own will eventually bring us to our knees. Stop spending money on BS and get back to the business that matters, defending our Constitution and our allies like Taiwan and Israel.

This is a no-brainer. Sell them the updated F-i6’s. We can use the work and it will help balance our overall trade period.

The artical mentions Chinas ballistic missle threat. The obvious solution is to sell the islanders missle intercepters ie.. patriot/ ageis type intercepters. wouldn’t recommend subs, the chineese have some of if not the most advanced sub technologie in the world. I back this up by their ability to surface a song class sub in the middle of a carrier battle group. we didn’t know it was their untile we visually saw it. so stay out of the water. but shore based anit ballistic missle interceptors and anit air craft missles. As far as the f-16s go if the chineese field thier su-34s they m ight as well not fly. I say if they wanna pay for it, f-22’s with out all the special gadgets. That way they’ll be less fighters we have to deal with

Just a quick note or two on the Song-class sub surfacing amidst our carrier battlegroup?

1. I’m not at all convinced we didn’t know it was there. Sometimes you let your opponent believe you are less capable than you really are. Plus, were we going to sink the thing?

2. If we didn’t know it was there it might be because we were not looking for it. I costs money to drop sonobuoys and our “environmentalists” (who have undue influence in our government) don’t like for us to use active sonar.

I am not at all sure that nowadays our primary means of tracking subs is through the vaunted sonar. It’s my understanding that the military doesn’t really utilize SOSUS much anymore (at least not tactically) and I suspect that is because we have better tech to fill the bill.

I believe we already sold Taiwan some PAC-3 missiles which would provide some protection against ballistic missiles at airbases and other key targets. Hopefully enough time to allow Taiwan to get their F-16s in the air.

As far as “legacy” aircraft go, upgraded F-16s are probably the best choice for Taiwan. They aren’t extremely costly, and range limitations are not much of a concern considering the location of Taiwan and how they would most certainly be on the defensive.

It is essentially a DPRK-DMZ-ROK replay. Ta1wan needs to work on a political-economic-military deterrent package to make ANY type of attack so costly that Ch1nese politico would think twice before authorizing them.

Next, Ta1wan needs to work on anti-denial (sea, submarine & air) tactics to defend its airspace and waterways in an event of a attack. Doesn’t matter if air bases/runways are ruined; as long as economy has survived and all amphibian attempts are foiled, ma1nland military aggression will eventually run out of momentum. Use a war of attrition to war to wear out the PLA.

I agree the Chinese have some very advanced subs and i also agree with anti-missile defenses. What i think is the best solution is for the Taiwanese to go out on the market and buy whatever they can if the USA is to chicken to stand up for them. On the other hand they need to take some lessons from Israel and develop a ballistic missile of their own. They don’t have to be super advanced just plentiful and can hit a target, let them or give them some help building a large inventory of short range missiles and an early warning system. They certainly have the ability to make these things and if the US won’t sell them fighters maybe they should line up Howitzers along their shore line to bombard the Chinese, it’s old fashioned but effective. Either way it won’t matter, as General MacArthur found out…he didn’t have enough bullets to kill them all and wanted tactical nukes. I say nuke the Chinese and default our debt. Well we won’t have to default because China will be gone. General MacArthur had the right idea and Truman fired him. Oh well at this rate we will have to give the Chinese California to offset our debt.

What other countries besides the US have political will to sell any advanced weaponry to Taiwan? EU? Japan? Russia? Wake up folks, they don’t have a choice.
China will only getting stronger as time passes by. Defending Taiwan is unfeasible. Economically speaking, Taiwan and mainland China is already fully integrated. Why even bother. Heck, maybe 10 or 20 years from now, US becomes totally de-industrialized. Maybe a nation of Wal-Marts and burger flapping should worry about defending herself first.

If you want to nuke China, better do it now. I doubt our dinosaur nuclear stockpile can last much longer. Obama made the decision to dismantle American deterrence by offering deep cuts in nuke and killing off next generation weapon development. Do you really trust thermo nuclear warheads designed and produced 30 years ago and without any actual testing to be done recently to back them up? Besides that, if Obama gets his way (which he probably will with the help from Democratic controlled Congress), US operational nuke inventory would fall below 1000 before his term ends, and China can easily catch up in a few years if they decided to do so in order to achieve strategic parity. Sorry I’m off the topic

Mobile anti air anti tank and anti ship missiles and submarines would probably be the best defence for Taiwan , but more than this the ultimate defence could only be to build massive stocks of missiles capable of hitting Shanghai and other major Chinese cities in retaliation , in effect a type of mini MAD where mainland cities and citizens lie in ruin in the event of an attack .

Geebadder
You Yanks facinate me. You are the most powerful nation the world has ever seen. Now grow a pair and Dominate!. Hell, if you want to sell the Tawainese anything for their self defense you do not need any nations permission, approval or anything else. My computer has just been ‘botted; hope this comes out ok.

Good MOrning Folks,

I can’t find much to disagree with HKDan here. The only missing elements are the domestic US politics which are no small issue.

Rand Corp. goes back to the 1950’s and it’s role in developing the USAF and advising on nuclear issues. Among the right of center tanks it is among, if not, the most cerebral. That said Rand has at times had a relationship with the Nationalist Chinese/Kuomintang (KMT) and of course dealings with the General and Madam Chiang Kai-Shek. This is no small issue.

The China Lobby as it is now called is very active in domestic American politics and spreading out money to members of Congress who are friendly to Taiwan and Nationalist efforts. The recent Supreme Court ruling on campaign finance is very welcomed by the China Lobby.

If it’s of any interest, concerning the politics, it appears that Taiwan has a preference for Democrats and the Mainland China has a liking for Republicans. Both Nixon and the Bush family are highly though of in Mainland China.

This paper kinda fuses both those interest together. The statement that the F-16D’s the Taiwanese have requested will not make any difference in the power balance is definitely aimed at Congress and President Obama, in saying go ahead sell the F-16’s to Taiwan.

The other side of this issue for Rand is saying that China is aggressively building and modernizing it’s air power and we need the F-35 as a counter measure to that build up.

The notion that either China or Taiwan could launch an surprise attack on one or the other is absurd. The cross channel intelligence gathering of both countries is among the most active in the world. It’s not unlike MAD magazines Spy vs, Spy.

The issue of ballistic missiles is a non starter. Even making the assumption that China could move a large number of missiles in place for an attack unnoticed, which with the number of Taiwanese spies and over head ISR would make such a move nearly impossible, Taiwan has dispersed its military assets around the country very well and with it’s Patriot 3’s and alert aircraft is more then able to minimize any Chinese ballistic missile attack on the island.

The punch line her is that a ballistic missile has to work the first time and if it doesn’t there is no plan B. In WW II Hitler learned this lesson very well with his V-1’s and V-2’s. They don’t return for a reload. Ballistic missile are a very expensive way to make war, that is one of the reasons the US ground forces abandoned non nuclear ballistic missiles in the 1960’s and the Tactical Nuc in 1985.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Sell them the F-35B and it will seriously change the equation here. With it’s short take off capability, it will be able to take off from runways that have been hit by multiple missiles. Have Israel develop a defense cooperation with Taiwan. This will help Taiwan and the U.S. by giving the U.S. a back door way to sell weapons to Taiwan. As far as I know Israel depends on China for nothing important.

Does anyone know where the 3 subs that Germany was selling to Greece are going to go now with Greece refusing to accept them?

Let China have Taiwan.

What is holding China together is a highly centralized government. If Taiwan becomes part of the PRC, the economic power center of China will become less centered. Taiwan, as well as Taiwanese firms and affluent individuals, will exert influence from within. China, in my opinion, will begin to fracture, and eventually devolve into several nations, including a once again independent Taiwan.

Let’s see if the Chinese Government is foolish enough to take that Trojan horse by force.

Maybe we have a horse in this game. China obstructs UN and particularly the USA in any possible. Taiwain gave up its nuke program..they have the expertise, industrial tools to make it so. Start a insider rumor that Taiwain is reevaluating it’s arms program. You think that would be an audible gasp from the Chinese.

If a cross strait invasion really did happen, and its not in the best interest of China or Taiwan, the real question will be what sort of war the US will get dragged into. THere is no doubt the US will defend Taiwan, and China knows this — however are both China and the US willing to risk our economies on Taiwan.

While the US debates selling F-16’s to Taiwan, the Chinese quietly deployed 8 battalions of S300 PMU2 SAM missiles to Longtian AB in Fujian. With a 200 km range, this gives China the ability to target Taiwanese fighters anywhere in the Taiwan Strait. While Taiwan can also target Chinese fighters with their Patriot PAC-3 missile systems, one has to wonder about the motivation for moving the S300 systems in this number to this location.

http://​focustaiwan​.tw/​S​h​o​w​N​e​w​s​/​W​e​b​N​e​w​s​_​D​e​t​a​i​l​.​asp…

Since the 1996 conflict when US carrier battle groups were deployed to the Taiwan Strait, the Chinese missile force has grown in capability.

China has 900 — 1000 land based conventional missiles capable of striking Taiwan. Most of these are now modern mobile launcher systems, with accurate GPS/GLONASS guidance systems. These systems are positioned so that they can strike at Taiwan with little or no warning. Some of the systems of concern are:

DongHai 10/ChangJian 10 (cruise missile system)
DongFeng 11(short range ballistic missile)
DongFeng 15 (short range ballistic missile)
DongFeng 21 (medium range ballistic missile)

http://​www​.globalsecurity​.org/​w​m​d​/​w​o​r​l​d​/​c​h​i​n​a​/​the…

http://​www​.sinodefence​.com/​s​t​r​a​t​e​g​i​c​/​d​e​f​a​u​l​t​.​asp

Give peace a chance.

oh just nuke them all.

Good Evening Folks,

In response to RSF,

Good try RSF but no cigar. Post 1 on the S-300PMU2’s, Last know and confirmed deployment of these systems was in Beijing Provence, since they are defensive weapons and there is no indication that Taiwan is going to invade or strike at China why would they move this asset into Yuan Provence? It would only signal China’s intent.

On the S-300 system, first off it’s doubtful that they are the latest Russian exported variant the PMU2 since Russia is one of China’s prime concerns and Beijing is China’s crown jewel.

All that said during the ten years of no fly the US became very familiar with the S-300/SS-21 system and became very good at various ways to defeat it. In 1991 the S-300 scored about a half dozen hits “officially” on US and UK aircraft in 2003 the S-300 system scored zero, in fact the Patriot downed more friendly aircraft then the S-300PM’s of Iraq. It is very likely that this technology and tactical information has been passed on to the Taiwanese military by the US.

On ballistic missiles. I will grant your numbers form sinodefense although I think they are by a factor of two,to high but such small numbers don’t really make a difference. None of these missiles are currently in a position to be fired at anybody, they are in storage in central China. The most likely places where these missiles might be places since the ballistic missile is either a defensive or a terror weapon is in the SW part of China on the India-Kashmir-China border, on the Amur River or the Vietnamese border. After the somewhat less them impressive ballistic show of 2006 the 2nd. Artillery Corp moved it’s HQ unit Yuan provence out.

Foot note: During the 1991 Gulf War Saddam fired his Scuds from mobile launchers at will, the US couldn’t and didn’t hit any before they fired their missile. In 2003 Saddam didn’t get a single Scud off, all were destroyed by US aircraft before they could launch. One would think that Taiwanese pilot training at Nellis would be well exercised in finding mobile launchers before they launched.

On accuracy. Since China doesn’t have an operational GPS Constellation and it is unlikely that the US, EU or The Russian Federation would let China use one of there systems for targeting that they have any such systems as you describe. The best estimates is that a typical Chinese BM has a 2Km. CPE. for Nuclear weapons that’s OK but for conventional warheads it’s not very good.

One item you didn’t mention are the mobile launchers. It does appear that all of China’s BM’s are mobile, so the number of launchers would determine the size of the strike.

The Chinese have two types of mobile launchers but for this discussion I will lump them together. Now assuming that all of them are operational, a huge assumption by the way, the Chinese have for the DH-10 20–30 launchers and for the BM’s DF-11 and DF-15 anywhere from 210–250, each launcher is good for two-five uses before it has to be refurbished.

That would give China a Max first strike of 280 missiles if everything you say is correct and all my assumptions are correct. It is very unlikely there would be a second strike.

The damage done by 280 165Kg. explosions on Taiwan would be minimal at worst.

The missile threat by China to Taiwan is rather small. Meanwhile the F-16D’s with nine hard points is an excellent strike aircraft that could without much trouble penetrate China’s AD even if all the S-300/SS-21’s were in place in Yuan provence. Of course all this would take place in the first hour of any conflict.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Just send a scientist in Taiwan to help them build their defenses.

Sad to say if there is a war between Taiwan and China, we are in obligation to act by law to defend Taiwan.
But before that will happen, give peace a chance.

A good integrated defense of man-pads, anti-tank weapons, howitzers/mortars and 50 cal machine guns defending a beach could do wonders against a much larger amphibious landing force.

Byron:

Let me get this straight; in your first post you talked about how both Taiwan and China have such accurate intelligence on each other, and that there could be no surprise attack by China.

Then in your reply to me, you dispute the comments made by Taiwan Ministry of Defense official General Yu Sy-Tue on March 17th, 2010 openly discussing the movement and relocation of 8 battalions of S300 PMU2 missiles to the aforementioned location at Longtian AB in Fujian. Did you look at the link to the Focus Taiwan TV that I attached? The good general’s comments both confirm the number, location, and the type as the S300 PMU2. Are you saying that you have better intelligence then the Taiwanese military? If so, please share with us the source of your information.

You then again repeat your unverifiable comments about the S300 being deployed in the no fly zones. I can find no evidence that this ever happened, and I again dispute your statements. US fighters did not fly against the S300 SAM missile system at any time during any of the gulf conflicts, IT NEVER HAPPENED. Attached below is a link to very good research by Dr. Carlo Kopp documenting every missile system ever deployed by Iraq in both gulf conflicts, you will note that the S300 is not listed. While Saddam Hussein attempted to purchase the S300 system after Desert Storm, the purchase request was refused by Russia.

http://​ausairpower​.net/​A​n​a​l​y​s​i​s​-​O​D​S​-​E​W​.​h​tml

The Chinese missile guidance systems now have GPS/GLONASS capability and this has been documented by many reputable sources. I might also add that the civilian access level to the GPS system is quite accurate enough do get the job done.

Your number of available of conventional ballistic missiles at 280 is ludicrous. There is more then that number in just one missile type out of the four conventional ballistic/cruise missiles capable of hitting Taiwan. Just adding the production numbers for the DF-11 and the DF-15 gives a figure of 1000 missiles. See the link below for the NTI Research Center again confirming the large number of missile capable of striking Taiwan:

http://​www​.nti​.org/​e​_​r​e​s​e​a​r​c​h​/​p​r​o​f​i​l​e​s​/​C​h​i​n​a​/​M​iss…

Your final comments about the F-16C/D I find amusing. The Russian Flanker was specifically designed to kill teen series US fighters (F-16, F-18, and F-15). While I have a personal affection for the Viper, it is no match for the advanced Flanker variants now across the Straight of Taiwan. China now has 138 SU-30MKK and 120 J-11A/B fighters in service.

Additionally, the numbers of the J-10A fighters are rapidly growing, with an additional 120 aircraft on order to replace the existing Soviet era J-7’s (for a total deployment of 300 J-10’s).

Unless the US is willing to sell advanced F-15’s (SE/SG), F-35’s (HA), or F-22 Raptors to Taiwan in serious numbers, this is a losing game.

With the members of the Chinese Military now openly talking about taking Taiwan by force by 2018, we are running out of time and options if we are actually going to defend this nation from the super power developing across the Taiwan Straight.

And as seeing is believing, here are some excellent photos showing the various new J-10A fighter units coming online in satellite imagery at the always excellent IMINT & Analysis website.

http://​geimint​.blogspot​.com/​2​0​0​7​/​1​0​/​c​h​i​n​a​s​-​j​-​1​0-i…

RSF,

Without getting into the above debate, I really think you should do some due diligence and check your source. “Dr.” Carlo Kopp is a fraud, plain and simple. A simple Google search ought to give you PLENTY of things to think about before you reference him again. The man is not a defense professional and there are numerous instances of him making claims that are outright lies(I.E. his claim to have flown in a Super Hornet). You have some points that deserve to be examined in your posts, but better references are needed in order to be taken more seriously.

Good Morning RSF,

You are just blowing smoke. You clearly have a vivid imagination
and what appear to be an erotic fixation with military hardware.

Oh by the way the S-300’s the Chinese have are S-300PM1’s.

The Su-27 is 1970’s technology and including the Chinese J–
11 less then 100 have been produced in about a half dozed variants.

Other then the DF-15 China’s ballistic missiles have been designed for the nuclear mission, missiles with nuclear warheads don’t use a GPS guidance for the obvious reasons.

You must learn the difference between intelligence and propaganda someday. Yes I believe that the sources of information I have are more accurate the Taiwanese TV or American TV.

The number of launchers come form a PRC source, how many do you say the Chines have?

As far a damage from your imaginary Chinese missiles I think we got a good idea of how much pop they have in 2003 when a Chinese Cruise Missile hit a shopping center in Kuwait. I will take you at your word on accuracy of Chinese missiles and assume that that shopping center in the early morning hours was the target. Since Chine Cruise Missiles have a 350/500Kg. war head, ballistic missiles have smaller 165 Kg. war heads the amount of damage that can be expected for a direct hit by a Chinese missile. The shopping center opend on time a few hours after the hit.

So until your next rant. Have a good week or what ever. Maybe next time you can talk about your military career, uh!

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

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