Hill Rips ABC’s F136 Story

Hill Rips ABC’s F136 Story

It’s not often those people who still watch network news are treated to a story about the weapons America buys, so when ABC’s flagship news program broadcast a story about the second engine program for the Joint Strike fighter most of us who watch these things every day took note. You’ll get a general diea of the story’s bent from its title: “Pentagon Chokes on Pork.” At least one person on Capitol Hill in particular took note, and was not happy. Following is a detailed critique of the story by a Capitol Hill aide.

ABC Evening News, 5–21-10: The military is perfectly happy with the engine it has.

Fact:


The most senior civilian acquisition official in the Air Force stated in a memo to Pentagon acquisition officials on April 19, 2009: “F135 engine [primary engine in the F-35] cost growth is an ongoing concern.”

The most senior civilian acquisition official in the Department of Defense, July 2009: “These costs [on the primary F-35 engine] are outside the bounds of Selected Acquisition Report projections, and I am concerned about continued cost growth in the F135.”

The Director of the F-35 Program Office, June 2009: “The Pentagon needs to carefully consider the operational risk of having just one engine for the F-35 fighter jet…competition could bring faster technology development and lower costs…a single engine could be worrisome if an engine problem ever grounded the fighters…In the past, having a variety of fighters meant the Pentagon could use other planes to offset any groundings, like an 11– month engine-related halt in Harriers in 2000…I simply think that we’ve focused too much on the discussion about cost benefit and not the operational risk benefit.”

ABC: GE lost out in original competition.

Fact:

The most senior acquisition official in the Department of Defense, Ashton Carter:

• Secretary Carter, March 24, 2010: “Pratt & Whitney [Current provider of F-35 engine] was awarded a non-competitive SDD [final research and development phase for the F-35, which is scheduled to end in 2016] contract [meaning there was no competition] for the [F-35] F135 propulsion system [in 2001].”

ABC: Secretary Gates video clip from May 20, 2010: “Only in Washington does a proposal where everybody wins [is] considered a competition, where everybody is guaranteed a piece of the action at the end.”

Fact:

About as simplistic as one can get. This is a comment for talk radio, not a serious discussion about defense acquisition. Defense acquisition is not about four quarters or nine innings.

The Defense Department wants to earmark over $100 billion for one contractor for the next 30–40 years. Members of Congress aren’t elected for life and have to justify their positions to their constituents every two years – but it is just fine to have the Defense Department earmark over $100 billion for 30–40 years to one contractor?

Secretary Gates’ statement is totally contrary to statute and the Pentagon’s own acquisition policies and directives — The Competition in Contracting Act (section 2304 of title 10, United States Code) requires competition in contracting and section 202 of the Weapon Systems Acquisition Reform Act of 2009 requires acquisition strategies to ensure competition throughout the life cycle of a weapon system.

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Americans for americans thats all i have to say.

In the 1980’s, to minimize the cost to the taxpayer and maximize the outcome to the Pentagon, weapon systems were individually competed at the major system and subsystem level. Today that would mean (1) competing the F-35 aircraft (which was done, between Lockheed Martin and Boeing) for best design, and (2) competing the engine F-135 versus F-136 separately, with the government providing the engine as government furnished equipment (GFE). That wasn’t done under the current winner-take-all acquisition strategy. A winner-take-all may get the best price at the start of a program, but not over the long term, where year-to-year or occasional competition gets the taxpayer the lower cost. Plus redundancy is always a good thing in military systems, which is why a second engine was always part of the original Pentagon’s strategy.

LM beat Boeing for a prototype only. Then DoD went sole source for Full Scale Development. A better approach would be to have a total competition throughout a total FSD. Then DoD could award production contract for the completed product — however good people may claim a product to be, it is not acceptable unless it passes Operational Test & Eval.

So we don’t need the British turbo lift fan that will power the F-35B, which the U.S. Marine Corps will be using for the next four decades?

Or, for that matter, the tilt down main engine we stole from the Russians?

The question to ask is that if the DOD is so firm on the one engine thing; why did they not have the F-35 JSF memorandum of agreement (updated again in Dec 2009) changed? For now, this statement in it signed off by all partner nations sticks–

“6.2.2 The Participants may designate the F135, the F136, or both in their PPRs in such quantities and in accordance with such delivery schedules as they require.”

If Gates is the big guy that he is, all he had to do was have that changed.

Well we have the ABC/DOD/PW motor and the GE/Rolls motor.

Umm we didn’t steal from the Russians. The idea that the F-35B is simply a “copy” of the Yak-141 is a downright lie by the “RUSSIA STRONG!” crowd.

Having been a past employee of Rolls-Royce I can say that this BRITTISH company has no respect for american technology and our governing laws. I have worked for American aerospace companies since I was honorably discharged from the U.S. Air Force in ’84. I was a fighter mechanic on F-15 & F16 fighters. The advanced six sigma programs of the american manufacturer is the best ever by about a century. Everyone should look at the Brits attitudes and awful personalities and truthfully say, we don’t need anything from these people.

FunnyI hear nothing about the monopoly that GE has on the F/A-18, the 737, the C-5, or the F-4.… wonder why congress has not offered to fund a second engine for the F/A-18 super hornet… would GE funded supports John Warner, John Breaux support that… hmmm and while I am thinking about how much BS is being pushed out there… someone should ask the military.. of the current fighter engines.… how much of its spare parts are currently being procured from the OEM and how muich was “competed out” to breakout vendors”… I am hearing only 30% of the engine are sourced to the OEM… seems like there is competition after all… so lets stop wasting tax dollars and put all the money up front into one good design and let the military reduce its costs as it always does by having after market vendors compete to build the design

Ask 50 pilots which engine they would rather have. Actually, ask 50 F-16 pilots which engine they like the best — and why. That airframe has flown with both. One of which has more power (always). One of which has not been grounded from combat duty due to load and time to climb limits. Wonder why they’re NOT wanting to put THAT ONE in the F-35???? I would guess that 50 out of 50 would claim the RR/GE as their favorite. All said while acknowledging that the P&W is a good engine. Ask the ones whose butts are on the line…not the silly lawyers who somehow became congressmen and senators.

.….I’m talking about other RR/GE and P&W engines that are in current use. Just wanted to clear that up before someone tried to educate me. Should have proofed before hitting the Submit button.

If you’ve worked for US companies since leaving the USAF in 84 I suspect your knowledge of RR is extremely limited and by the sounds of it — totally biased.

As a British person — not a Brit, thanks — I think our attitude and professionalism is bloody good — what our personality has to do is immaterial, but commerce isn’t perfect; we have our problems just like Boeing do. RR work hard to design, build and maintain good engines and personally should be in the running. We do the same over here with P&W and GE who are well respected in our industry; there are also a lot of collaborative ventures going on with both.

If you don’t want anything from us fine, we’ll have our money back from all the US kit we buy — there’s a 2:1 trade in the US advantage on arms trade to Europe. We’ll happily buy nothing from the US and stop sending our troops to help you out too, but we do that as an ally and long time trading partner (but hey not a lot of Yanks (Shouldn’t use that work should I!) seem to appreciate that)

P&W has the best lobbyist for the money, so RR/GE didn’t stand a chance!
The F-14A had the P&W engines replaced with GE engines due to limitations.
The F-15 and F-16 use the GE engines and they work just fine. The F-22A has
P&W engines and nothing has been published about reliability or maintainability
issues there. My guess is that P&W has put the F-22A engine costs with the
F-35 engines to simplify the logistics for both. That is a good selling point for
life cycle cost savings.

The F110-GE-100 indeed has more thrust than the F100-PW-220 model on most PW equipped F-16s, but the F100-PW-229 is a much more capable engine, has proven extremely reliable, and delievers nearly as much thrust as the F110-GE-129. I once talked to a F-16 pilot who had the chance to fly both the Block 50 (F110-GE-129) and Block 52 (F100-PW-229), he didn’t notice any real difference.

Note that in order to accommodate the F110’s higher airflow, all Block 30 and later F-16s had an enlarged intake. The F136 will have to fit the F-35 without any such design changes.

GE has a pretty strong lobbying force too.

IIRC the TF-30 was one of the world’s first afterburning turbofan engines. The TF-30 design simply wasn’t well suited to a fighter like the F-14A and suffered from many reliability problems. The F-15’s new F100 provided a superior T/W ratio and was much more reliable even though the F100-PW-100 did suffer from some problems.

Originally the TF-30 was supposed to power only 70 or so F-14As which would then be replaced in production by the F-14B with the F401-PW-400 developed from the same ATE program that produced the F100 for the F-15. Those initial F-14As would be upgraded to F-14B standard as well. However the F-14 program was encountering budget problems and fierce resistance in congress so in order to cut costs the Navy choose to stick the TF-30. It wasn’t until the mid 1980s that the F-14A+ (later redesignated F-14B) entered service with the F110-GE-400, which was indeed far superior to the TF-30.

Matt, there are many Americans that appreciate the contributions that our allies make around the world, especially our British friends. As a retired naval officer, I can say I have served with many fine officers and enlisted sailors in the Royal Navy. We have stood together through many conflicts and trying times; let’s stick together now. p.s. The term “Yanks” is fine with me…

Well said and consistent with the critique of the ABC story.

The DoD staffer replies are as off-base and benign as the ABC news reporting. Must have read from FAQ sheet. When will we reflect the fact we don’t know how to acquire with any efficiency and need to start from square one?

Both the engineering and manufacturing for this engine from this BRITISH company is done in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! Additionally, Six Sigma was developed in JAPAN. Please do a little bit of research before spewing your faux-patriotic views. Cheers.

What an irrelevant, crotchety comment. Is the personality of the employees at a contracting company relevant? Or is it more important to look at the cost and the product they provide?

we don’t have to start from square one. all people have to do is act IAW their DAU training, the FAR, start telling the truth, stop lying, and be willing to make courageous decisions to terminate stupid projects, start over, and don’t do stupid again. Trying to salvage stupid projects is falling into the sunk fallacy trap — it leads to more stupidity.

I have worked in the USA with your armed forces and must say that Americans are, by and large, among the nicest, most generous people you will meet anywhere, despite their frequent misconceptions about the rest of the world. I have also met a few truly dreadful individuals in the States (as you will anywhere), but I would not dream of suggesting that therefore you are all ‘Ugly Americans’ to be avoided or shunned. If Mike substituted the words ‘blacks’ or ‘Jews’ for ‘Brits’ I think he would see how just offensive his comments might appear across the Atlantic.

Rolls Royce USA is of course an American company, run by Americans, even if it part of the RR UK group, in just the same way that Ford UK is a British company owned by an American parent. If Mike does not get on with ‘Brits’ perhaps he might care to look in the mirror and reflect on his own personality and attitude to ‘these people’, currently deploying the second largest force in Afghanistan. They are in fact overwhelmingly pro-American and grateful for American help over the last 90-odd years. Mike, I bet you know how to pick a fight in a bar…

I agree to an extent, if technology is not kept to the max, the max will not be kept within the USA’s ability to keep us in #1 possition world wide.
Our military strength has been our #1 asset & problem for many years, I SAY KEEP US IN THE LEAD TO KEEP US SAFE FROM OTHERS COMING UP TO MEET US.
oldbob

Oops, sorry, didn’t mean you Mike, I meant the poster Rolls Royce garbage. Sorry!

Why not let Acorn bid on building them they could subsidize the cost with housing rentals to “performers” with special congressional rates.

Thus far,the information that I would use to help make a decision on how to support the Joint Strike Fighter engine debate lends itself to all the remarks which I have just read. The call I just received from someone asking me to make aphone call to express that I would not support The Defense Department earmarking over $100 billion for one contractor for the next 30–40 years, drove me to find out more information. What I just read and learned about
(F135 engine [primary engine in the F-35] cost growth) is news to me. Hey, I find this topic stimulating. I am glad I got the call.

Read more:http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​1​0​/​0​5​/​2​4​/​h​i​l​l​-​r​i​p​s​-​a​b​cs-…
engins)s news to me

Read more:http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​1​0​/​0​5​/​2​4​/​h​i​l​l​-​r​i​p​s​-​a​b​cs-…

what does that even mean?

1000 hours on the F-16, always always, always wanted a GE under me. There was a saying, if it said PW on the engine it better say ACES II on the seat.

The F/A-18 engine WAS competed. PW was given a second source contract to build the F404 engine and compete with GE. GE ended up winning the competition with lower pricing.

Think back: a long time ago, Navy Secretary Lehmann insisted on Pratt as a second source for the F-18 enigne, and gave that up after ordering 100 engines at a much higher price. Retaining the expensive capability in case he ever wanted it.

here are some facts that they neglected to add. the jsf went over budget in ’05 due to the research and development, shortly after congress cut 250 million from the budget. on the same day they awarded 230 million to ge/rolls for this very engine, after the military had already decided that the f-136 engine did not preform the way that the pratt/ whitney engine did. oh and i forgot to mention that the plant that was awarded 230m was in kennedy’s district.

You mean GE(NBC)/Rolls.….….….…..

GE is POed because they think that ABC is beating them up. They own NBC, let NBC get into the fight.

GE has bent over backwards to use the press to forward their cause (i.e,. Wind Farms).

Frankly, the entire discussion is missing the point. This program (as with most DoD major weapons acquisitions) will be a collosal waste of our country’s resources, regardless of who gets the engine contract.

Why not name the “Capitol Hill Aide” and identify where he’s from and who he works for? If anonymity is granted by the press (even bloggers), the writer should state the reason for it (“he’s afraid of being fired”, etc.). Just allowing hacks to spit out points like this undermines open government. His or her anonymity makes me suspect that the motivation behind the attack is not simply honest caretaking of taxpaper dollars.

before I get roughed up by the irony police — I’m being anonymous here because my anti-Military-Industrial-Complex opinion could run me afoul of my USG employer (which, btw, is not DoD and not the Hill). I don’t have a dog in this fight (other than my tax dollars).

Can’t we all just get along?

IMO all defense contractor screw everyone — the gov’t-the people and whom ever else they can — I just hope we continue to have the biggest and best — when that day ends — we will all be speaking another language

Very very wrong — I work on the manufacture and deisgn of the British engines as part of a massive UK supply, design and manufacturing network — you very obviously don’t have a clue what you’re talking about

Insulting and unnecessary, I forgot opinionated. Oh, advanced six sigma programs — you mean established and current technology under control — what the UK brings is brand new technology and methods never dreamt of in the US and drive them through capability barriers to deliver capable and cutting edge solutions along with virtual manufacturing in advance of physical manufacturing.
So you know about one element of effective manufacturing ‘six sigma’ whoopie doo — what about the other 95% of an effective business solution and technology deployment??? Plenty of books available on six-sigma — that’s ’cause its old hat — manufacturing has moved on and realises that this is only a minutii of a big activity. Next you’ll be thinking black belt programmes are new too, and capability readiness, and production readiness, and VSM etc etc. Wake up and look forwards not backwards. A century worth of a lead in advanced manufacturing — too much pride and too little knowledge — very dangerous indeed.

How many aircraft and helicopters are flying with the single sourced GE engine today ? Seems to me that GE is not arguing about the dual sourcing any of those power plants and why do you think that is.

Don’t kid yourselves…defense contracting is just as crooked as any other “fairly” bid government contract. Just look at the debacle that ensued regarding the tanker replacement. How many years has that been going on now and we still don’t have a new tanker. Remember, we are talking about an organization (the Pentagon) that can’t even keep track of what their staffers are spending on their Amex accounts and congress is full of idiots who don’t know the first thing about what’s good for the military…they are just looking to get money for their districts (like the tanker snafu demonstrates.)

Who needs the Hornet or JSF anyway??? Never should have ditched the Tomcats. F-14s forever, baby!

Not the same story I heard from F16 pilot(s) when the –129 was introduced. Statements like “No throttle restrictions during severe maneuvers and much more responsive” Might want to canvass another couple of pilots.

I actually test both the F100-220 and the F110-100/129 engines. Yes, we put them on a frame and stick them in a test cell (not just a hush house), then do a complete test on them. Both are decent engines, although many times it takes several tries to get the F100-220 started. And yes, I have talked to pilots, most prefer the F110, either model over the F100. The problem is not so much with the engine itself, it is with the company Pratt&Whitney. They are real jerks to deal with, and they contract out most of their work. They will not give out any information to their customer (the US AirForce) unless you beat it out of them. GE on the other hand is easier to deal with, if you buy their product, they give you all the information you ask for. I personally do not like GE because of their CEO and shady dealings, but I also don’t like P&W because they do everything they can to undermine you and take the work away from you. The reason why I believe in the 2 engine theory is simply to keep competition between the two evils.

Having worked for P&W in the 1970s & 80s, we found it curious that GE was routinely awarded no-bid contracts because they complained they were going out of the engine business unless they got some gov’t contracts — i.e. C5, F18, 2nd engine for F15/16 (despite still making many for the F4s). Curious too that Ronnie Regan was the GE spokesperson for decades and the GE military engines are produced in Lynn, MA — just down the road from Ted Kennedy’s house. Humm, any connections?

The Navy has historically had a better relationship and experience with GE. The Airforce has historically had a better relationship and experience with Pratt. Why not split the buy among the two while retaining some engine interchangeability across the F35 variants (CTOL ‚CV and STOVL). The comments about GE having monopolies on certain helicopter platforms and the F18 is not a useful argument for allowing Pratt or GE to be the sole source for the F35. The intention and plan for the JSF F35 is to be a one size fits all fighter/attack plane for all of the services. That’s the whole future market. Pratt already is the sole source on the Raptor. The size and scope of the F35 is far beyond the F18 platform or any other previous platform. Pushing one or the other off of the F35 platform is not a wise decision … period.

As a 35 year aerospace worker including government (10Yr) and contractor (25) experience, I have worked with too many honest, dedicated people on both sides to throw them under the bus with sweeping generalities most often driven by ideological/political biases. The higher you go in the food chain, the greater the compromise of ethics and principles. This results in downward pressure by legislative and executive entities to do what is politically expedient for them at that point in time. Just look at the yo-yoesque funding of many large programs over their like span. The consequence is whipsawing the people who have to let, administer, and perform the enormous contracts that are at stake. There is no solution until the generals, admirals, congress members, corp. CEOs/VPs, and lobbyists get out of the way once the contracts are let. The system isn’t broke, the high-level players are.

amen

A two hour ride from Lynn, Ma to Hyannisport, where Sen. Kennedy used to live is not considered “down the road” by any sensible person and actually has nothing to do with the fact that studies show competing engines will SAVE over $20 BILLION of taxpayer’s money over the life of the program and keep our national defense secure should one or the other engine fail at any time during use. With one engine supporting our full fleet for the next 25–30 years we could be in huge trouble should that one engine develop problems that grounds the whole fleet.

you must be working for pratt now

My work experience is similar to your own, except I’m a US Navy veteran. One benefit I never see under discussion here is the commercial application of the Lift system, not neccessarily the engine. From what I hear, it is already under developement in the commercial world, from the original designer. Just imagine, no more runways required. Holy AVATAR, Batman!

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