Comments on: Major Battle Brews Over F136 http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/ Online Defense and Acquisition Journal Thu, 09 Feb 2012 12:41:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: groundpounderhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25754 groundpounder Fri, 28 May 2010 20:16:51 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25754 Rick Kennedy P&W won the contract legally for the F-22 but lost the competition based on test data. "Let's don't get silly here" Rick Kennedy
P&W won the contract legally for the F-22 but lost the competition based on test data.
“Let’s don’t get silly here”

]]> By: TJRedNeckhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25616 TJRedNeck Thu, 27 May 2010 12:34:37 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25616 I also know that P&W charges for every little thing and they charge at lest twice what it is worth. This is why competition would probably put them out of business. I am torn though, because I do NOT want any company to have a monopoly on the jet engine business. I think both P&W and GE need new people at the top to run the company. The current guys are just interested in becoming super rich and do not really care about our national security. I also know that P&W charges for every little thing and they charge at lest twice what it is worth. This is why competition would probably put them out of business. I am torn though, because I do NOT want any company to have a monopoly on the jet engine business. I think both P&W and GE need new people at the top to run the company. The current guys are just interested in becoming super rich and do not really care about our national security.

]]> By: TJRedNeckhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25615 TJRedNeck Thu, 27 May 2010 12:31:07 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25615 I actually test both the F100-220 and the F110-100/129 engines. Yes, we put them on a frame and stick them in a test cell (not just a hush house), then do a complete test on them. Both are decent engines, although many times it takes several tries to get the F100-220 started. And yes, I have talked to pilots, most prefer the F110, either model over the F100. The problem is not so much with the engine itself, it is with the company Pratt&Whitney. They are real jerks to deal with, and they contract out most of their work. They will not give out any information to their customer (the US AirForce) unless you beat it out of them. GE on the other hand is easier to deal with, if you buy their product, they give you all the information you ask for. I personally do not like GE because of their CEO and shady dealings, but I also don't like P&W because they do everything they can to undermine you and take the work away from you. The reason why I believe in the 2 engine theory is simply to keep competition between the two evils. I actually test both the F100-220 and the F110-100/129 engines. Yes, we put them on a frame and stick them in a test cell (not just a hush house), then do a complete test on them. Both are decent engines, although many times it takes several tries to get the F100-220 started. And yes, I have talked to pilots, most prefer the F110, either model over the F100. The problem is not so much with the engine itself, it is with the company Pratt&Whitney. They are real jerks to deal with, and they contract out most of their work. They will not give out any information to their customer (the US AirForce) unless you beat it out of them. GE on the other hand is easier to deal with, if you buy their product, they give you all the information you ask for. I personally do not like GE because of their CEO and shady dealings, but I also don’t like P&W because they do everything they can to undermine you and take the work away from you. The reason why I believe in the 2 engine theory is simply to keep competition between the two evils.

]]> By: TurboTechhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25537 TurboTech Wed, 26 May 2010 19:57:28 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25537 Formula, You need to check out ther latest F15K, it is powered by PW-229 EEP enging.. if the 110 was better Korea would not have gone back to the -229 after 1 buy. Formula, You need to check out ther latest F15K, it is powered by PW-229 EEP enging.. if the 110 was better Korea would not have gone back to the –229 after 1 buy.

]]> By: Balancerhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25534 Balancer Wed, 26 May 2010 19:01:15 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25534 Steve. Obvious error in the last post ... out of the YF120?? So GE got the supercruise requirement on the slower plane and required secret classification on the faster plane and P&W missed the requirement on the faster plane by .15 mach, almost a 10% miss!! You call that success?? And 5 months after this the AF selects the engine that did not meet the requirements. How much new development money did it take to add thrust to the 119 to finally get it to supercruise at the mach number that was required? GE offered the AF a Cadillac at an Oldsmobile price and the AF selected a Datsun at a Chevy price. Steve. Obvious error in the last post … out of the YF120??
So GE got the supercruise requirement on the slower plane and required secret classification on the faster plane and P&W missed the requirement on the faster plane by .15 mach, almost a 10% miss!! You call that success?? And 5 months after this the AF selects the engine that did not meet the requirements. How much new development money did it take to add thrust to the 119 to finally get it to supercruise at the mach number that was required? GE offered the AF a Cadillac at an Oldsmobile price and the AF selected a Datsun at a Chevy price.

]]> By: Balancerhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25533 Balancer Wed, 26 May 2010 18:59:06 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25533 Steve. The YF119 beat the snot out of the YF119?? From Flight International Dec 1990, titled "…as USAF stamps secret on YF-23 speed" In late November the YF-23 achieved supercruise but although previous ATF supercruise speeds have been announced, the AF is preventing release of the new figure. "The AF declined to release that number but we are very pleased". It appears likely that the GE powered YF-23 exceeded significantly the published Mach 1.58 supercruise already achieved by the GE powered YF-22. Northrop says that the P&W powered YF-23 demonstrated Mach 1.43 and Lockheed says the P&W powered YF-22 has not strictly performed supercruise. The company explains that the aircraft has been accelerated to high supersonic speed with reheat assistance and then allowed to decelerate to unassisted supersonic flight. Steve. The YF119 beat the snot out of the YF119??
From Flight International Dec 1990, titled “…as USAF stamps secret on YF-23 speed“
In late November the YF-23 achieved supercruise but although previous ATF supercruise speeds have been announced, the AF is preventing release of the new figure. “The AF declined to release that number but we are very pleased”.
It appears likely that the GE powered YF-23 exceeded significantly the published Mach 1.58 supercruise already achieved by the GE powered YF-22.
Northrop says that the P&W powered YF-23 demonstrated Mach 1.43 and Lockheed says the P&W powered YF-22 has not strictly performed supercruise. The company explains that the aircraft has been accelerated to high supersonic speed with reheat assistance and then allowed to decelerate to unassisted supersonic flight.

]]> By: Balancerhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25529 Balancer Wed, 26 May 2010 18:07:03 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25529 The YF119 beat the snot out of the YF120?? I seem to remember that the YF119 failed to meet the specified supercruise number and that the YF120 blew past it and had to be pulled back below military power to hold on that number. P&W won the ATF competition because of their lobbying and sobbing that they needed a large military engine program. The YF119 beat the snot out of the YF120?? I seem to remember that the YF119 failed to meet the specified supercruise number and that the YF120 blew past it and had to be pulled back below military power to hold on that number. P&W won the ATF competition because of their lobbying and sobbing that they needed a large military engine program.

]]> By: Stevehttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25519 Steve Wed, 26 May 2010 16:54:06 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25519 Formula (or Seal) the F119 went head to head with the the F120 and the F119 won fair and square, re-read what I wrote. "....but to Pratt's point it was the chosen engine by both Boeing and Lockheed. Pratt had an engine to build off of technology-wise. And that engine went head to head with GE's engine and it beat the snot out of it...." Deal with your own misconception, Formula! As far as what Timbob pointed out I agree with him, however GE shills like yourself put forth the rumor that the "truth" was they were scrapping 50% of the engines, which was not true. My point was, is that people like yourself push these opinions with one part innuendo and another part rumor and play it off as fact. If GE is soo damn good Formula and they're only 2 years behind Pratt, why aren't they flying even CTOL versions yet? Oh right I forgot they've only got 160 hrs worth of testing complete...oops my bad! Formula (or Seal) the F119 went head to head with the the F120 and the F119 won fair and square, re-read what I wrote. “.…but to Pratt’s point it was the chosen engine by both Boeing and Lockheed. Pratt had an engine to build off of technology-wise. And that engine went head to head with GE’s engine and it beat the snot out of it.…” Deal with your own misconception, Formula! As far as what Timbob pointed out I agree with him, however GE shills like yourself put forth the rumor that the “truth” was they were scrapping 50% of the engines, which was not true. My point was, is that people like yourself push these opinions with one part innuendo and another part rumor and play it off as fact. If GE is soo damn good Formula and they’re only 2 years behind Pratt, why aren’t they flying even CTOL versions yet? Oh right I forgot they’ve only got 160 hrs worth of testing complete…oops my bad!

]]> By: Formulahttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25504 Formula Wed, 26 May 2010 14:42:50 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25504 Steve, I'm glad Timbob set you straight on the facts. As far as beating the snot out of the GE engine...show me the facts where and when this occured? I thought so, because it NEVER happened. Look at the facts Steve in the Commercial and Military markets, look at what power plant has been chosen for the F15 platform since 2000. I don't deal with "perception" and the facts speak for themselves. P&W is in a corner and they are doing whatever they can to get this as a sole contract. Even if it does mean "distorting" the truth. Steve, I’m glad Timbob set you straight on the facts. As far as beating the snot out of the GE engine…show me the facts where and when this occured? I thought so, because it NEVER happened. Look at the facts Steve in the Commercial and Military markets, look at what power plant has been chosen for the F15 platform since 2000. I don’t deal with “perception” and the facts speak for themselves. P&W is in a corner and they are doing whatever they can to get this as a sole contract. Even if it does mean “distorting” the truth.

]]> By: Stevehttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25501 Steve Wed, 26 May 2010 13:20:08 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25501 I'm sorry Timbob, you're sort of correct: <a href="http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/130226.pdf" target="_blank">http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/13022...</a> The Govt was stating that they were scrapping one in every two engines, GE was pouncing on that and pushing hard for entrance onto the JSF, however Pratt wasn't scrapping every other engine. And to your point yield rate (scrap rate) has gone down significantly since then. I’m sorry Timbob, you’re sort of correct: http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/13022…

The Govt was stating that they were scrapping one in every two engines, GE was pouncing on that and pushing hard for entrance onto the JSF, however Pratt wasn’t scrapping every other engine. And to your point yield rate (scrap rate) has gone down significantly since then.

]]> By: Stevehttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25500 Steve Wed, 26 May 2010 13:00:48 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25500 Negative Timbob, GE was pushing the rumor that Pratt was scrapping almost every other ENGINE. Negative Timbob, GE was pushing the rumor that Pratt was scrapping almost every other ENGINE.

]]> By: Timbob1061http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25497 Timbob1061 Wed, 26 May 2010 12:27:05 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25497 Erin Dick the Pratt PR mouthpiece. There never was a perception of a 50% scrap rate for engines so your point is not made. The 50% scrap rate was for piece parts and it was JPO that was pushing the point not GE. Erin Dick the Pratt PR mouthpiece. There never was a perception of a 50% scrap rate for engines so your point is not made. The 50% scrap rate was for piece parts and it was JPO that was pushing the point not GE.

]]> By: Turbo Techhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25480 Turbo Tech Tue, 25 May 2010 19:38:44 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25480 Rick (Kennedy) your comment talks to competition..."The engines for the F-18,... were all competed. Just like the F-22 was compete... Let's don't get silly here.... Seems like GE is the silly one here... "During a lunch for reporters GE hosted this afternoon at their government operations center in downtown DC, company officials outlined their essential arguments... Don’t grant an engine monopoly for such an important program.".... All your examples are GE monopolies so your company official's arguement to congress/taxpayers on not giving up a monopoly is just plain silly... as you don't really believe it yourself. Rick (Kennedy) your comment talks to competition…“The engines for the F-18,… were all competed. Just like the F-22 was compete… Let’s don’t get silly here.… Seems like GE is the silly one here… “During a lunch for reporters GE hosted this afternoon at their government operations center in downtown DC, company officials outlined their essential arguments… Don’t grant an engine monopoly for such an important program.”.… All your examples are GE monopolies so your company official’s arguement to congress/taxpayers on not giving up a monopoly is just plain silly… as you don’t really believe it yourself.

]]> By: Bill Kennedyhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25479 Bill Kennedy Tue, 25 May 2010 18:53:20 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25479 You want to cut costs? Then you need the competing engine! History has shown what happens when there is no competition. For long term savings the US taxpayer needs this competition. Also for long term national defense, having a second engine is a no-brainer. If one company had the monopoly and supplied all engines for the next 25-30 years, what happens when there is the eventual engine problem? Everything gets shut down and grounded? It's hard to believe there is even a question as to why we need competition in this country! You want to cut costs? Then you need the competing engine! History has shown what happens when there is no competition. For long term savings the US taxpayer needs this competition. Also for long term national defense, having a second engine is a no-brainer. If one company had the monopoly and supplied all engines for the next 25–30 years, what happens when there is the eventual engine problem? Everything gets shut down and grounded? It’s hard to believe there is even a question as to why we need competition in this country!

]]> By: Taxpayerhttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25463 Taxpayer Tue, 25 May 2010 16:00:22 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25463 Back on point, in the 1980's the Pentagon competed both the major platform and its major subsystems (like an aircraft engine) separately. It produced the best overall cost to the taxpayer and resulted in continuous product and price competition. By not spending an additional $1 billion to complete the F-136 GE engine, we guarantee the F-135 PW folks a 20% price premium worth $20 billion in additional profits that can go to fund other war fighter needs. At a time when Secretary Gates is struggling to cut costs, this is a no-brainer! Back on point, in the 1980’s the Pentagon competed both the major platform and its major subsystems (like an aircraft engine) separately. It produced the best overall cost to the taxpayer and resulted in continuous product and price competition. By not spending an additional $1 billion to complete the F-136 GE engine, we guarantee the F-135 PW folks a 20% price premium worth $20 billion in additional profits that can go to fund other war fighter needs. At a time when Secretary Gates is struggling to cut costs, this is a no-brainer!

]]> By: Stevehttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25460 Steve Tue, 25 May 2010 15:40:23 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25460 Yep I'm a shill, at least I'll admit it, no I don't want Erin's job....not sure who you're talking about. As far as what happened in Pratt's past, well yea that's what does happen in a development test environment. But my point was that there was a perception of scrapping every other engine that got pushed into spotlight by GE. We can play this back and forth but when it comes to information that is in reality closely guarded by the two companies (except JPO) and can't be verified...then what is it worth? Nothing. Yep I’m a shill, at least I’ll admit it, no I don’t want Erin’s job.…not sure who you’re talking about. As far as what happened in Pratt’s past, well yea that’s what does happen in a development test environment. But my point was that there was a perception of scrapping every other engine that got pushed into spotlight by GE. We can play this back and forth but when it comes to information that is in reality closely guarded by the two companies (except JPO) and can’t be verified…then what is it worth? Nothing.

]]> By: Timbob1061http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25453 Timbob1061 Tue, 25 May 2010 14:36:28 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25453 Steve you sound like P&W's shill, are you trying to take Erin's job away from her ? Pratt wasn't scrapping every other engine but they had components of the engine that were at a 50% scrap rate, that too is info from the government not GE. Steve you sound like P&W’s shill, are you trying to take Erin’s job away from her ? Pratt wasn’t scrapping every other engine but they had components of the engine that were at a 50% scrap rate, that too is info from the government not GE.

]]> By: Stevehttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25443 Steve Tue, 25 May 2010 13:44:15 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25443 Formula! Back again with your vitriol! So good to hear from you, to your point the F135 was never put head to head with the competition, but to Pratt's point it was the chosen engine by both Boeing and Lockheed. Pratt had an engine to build off of technology-wise. And that engine went head to head with GE's engine and it beat the snot out of it. Since you're talking about lies, where are you coming up with your lies? You seem to be spouting off things about an engine that you don't know anything about. Last you said you were a Contractor for the govt, what makes you think your contacts or even what you've seen for yourself to be true?You sound like you're a GE shill, I remember those lies they put out a few years back, that Pratt was scrapping every other engine, which wasn't true, they couldn't meet thrust, which was also not true...it's funny how those people can put lies forth and claim them as true...you seem to be following that pattern. There's the perception, the truth and then the lie, sometimes the perception can be the truth...but not always. If you push perception as the truth it may well be the lie. Formula! Back again with your vitriol! So good to hear from you, to your point the F135 was never put head to head with the competition, but to Pratt’s point it was the chosen engine by both Boeing and Lockheed. Pratt had an engine to build off of technology-wise. And that engine went head to head with GE’s engine and it beat the snot out of it. Since you’re talking about lies, where are you coming up with your lies? You seem to be spouting off things about an engine that you don’t know anything about. Last you said you were a Contractor for the govt, what makes you think your contacts or even what you’ve seen for yourself to be true?You sound like you’re a GE shill, I remember those lies they put out a few years back, that Pratt was scrapping every other engine, which wasn’t true, they couldn’t meet thrust, which was also not true…it’s funny how those people can put lies forth and claim them as true…you seem to be following that pattern. There’s the perception, the truth and then the lie, sometimes the perception can be the truth…but not always. If you push perception as the truth it may well be the lie.

]]> By: Formulahttp://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25438 Formula Tue, 25 May 2010 11:53:54 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25438 RSF...you are right on. Erin, please stop being so desperate...its not becoming of you. Like Rick said, the other airframes you mentioned were competed and the winners now power those airframes. On the other hand, and this too is based on facts right from Senior USG officials....THE F35 ENGINE WAS NEVER COMPETED. P&W is losing face everyday they share LIES with the public. The real exposure on the F135 is coming out (to include the F135 engine redesign because it can not meet temperature margins for the STOVL variant) and P&W better be ready to defend itself against the FACTS.... RSF…you are right on. Erin, please stop being so desperate…its not becoming of you. Like Rick said, the other airframes you mentioned were competed and the winners now power those airframes. On the other hand, and this too is based on facts right from Senior USG officials.…THE F35 ENGINE WAS NEVER COMPETED. P&W is losing face everyday they share LIES with the public. The real exposure on the F135 is coming out (to include the F135 engine redesign because it can not meet temperature margins for the STOVL variant) and P&W better be ready to defend itself against the FACTS.…

]]> By: Io205http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/05/24/major-battle-brews-over-f136/#comment-25433 Io205 Tue, 25 May 2010 07:26:32 +0000 http://www.dodbuzz.com/?p=15185#comment-25433 Can anyone predict what will happen over 30-40 years (contract length). Almost one thing will be certain, costs will go up (and poor P&W can do nothing about it..........) Get that second engine!!! The Harrier example is bad enough. Can anyone predict what will happen over 30–40 years (contract length). Almost one thing will be certain, costs will go up (and poor P&W can do nothing about it.….…..) Get that second engine!!! The Harrier example is bad enough.

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