DOD’s Guns Versus Butter Debate

DOD’s Guns Versus Butter Debate

The Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessment’s Todd Harrison has a new paper out warning that DOD is fast approaching a difficult choice: either fund the people or the weapons they operate, it will soon reach the point where it can’t do both.

Harrison has been warning anybody who will listen about the labor cost challenges at DOD for some time now. Last fall, he wrote a piece warning that DOD potentially faces a GM sized fixed labor cost problem, necessitating a massive increase in federal dollars, a “bailout” in essence.

His latest paper lays out what he calls DOD’s internal “guns versus butter” debate. The butter includes pay and benefit increases that have what economists call “stickiness”: they are almost impossible to rollback. The increase in pay and benefits that congress allots DOD each year will crowd out investment in research and new weapons.


First a sense of the scale of the problem: with some 2,250,000 people on the payroll, DOD is the single biggest employer in the U.S., public or private sector. In fact, DOD has more people on its payroll than Wal-Mart (1.1 million) and the Post Office (600,000) combined. The size of the payroll means any changes, even seemingly minor year-to-year increases in pay or benefits, have an outsized effect on the defense budget because of the compounding and cumulative effects of pay hikes.

Since 2000, the cost to pay and care for one active-duty serviceman has increased 73 percent in real terms: from $73,300 to $126,800 today.

In 2010, congress voted a pay raise for military personnel (including DOD civilians) that was 0.5 percent higher than the cost of living adjustment, a pay bump that added just $351 million to the 2010 budget. However, because all future pay hikes will be added on top of that raise, the compounding effect means that even if future pay is simply increased to account for inflation, the 2010 increase will add $2.4 billion to the budget over five years.

Healthcare for military personnel and dependents is also rising at an unsustainable rate. DOD provides care to 9.6 million troops, retirees, members of the Guard and Reserve and dependents. Defense healthcare costs have risen 6.9 percent a year since 2000. Healthcare accounts for nearly one-tenth of the 2011 defense budget, a total of $50.7 billion.

DOD’s guns versus butter debate can be seen as an “intergenerational struggle,” Harrison writes, “a question of providing benefits for those who served in the past or funding the equipment and training needed for those who will fight tomorrow’s wars.”

Ultimately, he writes, forced cuts in money for weapons and training will seriously impact the operational effectiveness of the force.

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Less people, more robots.

Even minor adjustments to TRICARE will bring some income to the military healthcare budget. The DoD keeps trying to make up the entire shortage all at once and Congress keeps smacking them on the hand for it. Slightly increased fees for TRICARE, retirees, and new soldiers in that order are probably what is needed. Either that or reductions in healthcare coverage.

0 Vote up Vote down

TMB · 19 minutes ago

Even minor adjustments to TRICARE will bring some income to the military healthcare budget. The DoD keeps trying to make up the entire shortage all at once and Congress keeps smacking them on the hand for it. Slightly increased fees for TRICARE, retirees, and new soldiers in that order are probably what is needed. Either that or reductions in healthcare coverage.
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Agreed. DoD has ignored spiraling costs on the “butter” side for too long. The problem is that this makes sense so nothing will change.

The upside is that because the money is not being invested productively DoD staff will have fewer job options in the future. This will enable substantial savings by cutting benefits and healthcare.

Yesterday’s DOD contracts include:

Global Defense Technology & Systems, Inc., Frederick, Md., is being awarded a $94,919,758 maximum contract value firm-fixed-price, indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract with a maximum ordering quantity of 500 expeditionary water purification systems.

Oshkosh Corp., Oshkosh, Wis., was awarded on May 24 a $66,915,870 firm-fixed-price contract for the procurement of 22 engineering change proposals to incorporate into 421 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected All-Terrain Vehicles.

Sounds like butter is losing.

This is such BS, they try to make it sound like all military personnel are over paid, a very large number are on WIC and food stamps because they dont make enough to support thier families. They need to close the gap in pay for one thing, No general or admiral deserves to be making 3 to 4 times the salary of an E9 who really runs the military and gets the job done while the brass sits on his 6. Brass does not deserve new very expensive and exclusive housing while an E-5 and his family are stuffed into 1100 sq ft. I served 24 yrs and the military is one of the most descriminatory organizations in the world in regards to officers vs enlisted. They can aslo stop being the major contributors to NATO and the UN and put that money back into our own forces, They can stop paying former senators and governors and providing free medical (they only have to serve 1 term –2 yrs to get permanent pay & benefits), stop giving grants to save CA. field mice, and other BS grants/pork funding. Just give the troops what they want which most of the time is cheaper and better than what they are getting and you will see a major reduction in spending.

A part of the problem is that we have taken upon ourselves the responsibility of being the First Responder for all global emergencies. This is wonderful, but is it the right thing to do? We do need to continue to encourage our partners and allies to help out — it sounds like Saudi Arabia doesn’t do too much to help out with earthquakes, etc. Caveat — not that I have done a lot of research here! But it looks like NATO aircraft deliver relief, etc. How much does Quatar do to help out — sending trucks and medics?
Part of the situation is that the expectations of the US military members is for better treatment. Better housing, libraries, recreation. This is what we owe them! As an Air Force dependent I lived in substandard housing several times, housing that was scheduled for demolition but that had been delayed since there was no other housing available.

Both Boomer and Charles have legitimate points (having been in the service and civil service myself). Part of the problem is trying to make military pay and benefits the same as a private job. I have no problem in paying people fairly who risk their lives in defense of our national, but what is equitable? Work (risk) for 20 at 100% pay, and collect for 40 to 50 years at 50% pay plus full medical? Unfunded pension and no/low deductible medical care. This is what broke GM and Chrysler and most of America’s manufacturing and metals sector, and why it’s all been exported to low wage/no benefits countries. We need to come to some equitable solution to this personnel problem. My personal belief is that Gates needs to work on figuring out the legitimacy of the 2/3rds military people have who NOT deployed yet.

As to the Todd Harrison’s CSBA article, as usual with their products, its overly simplistic and includes incomplete or misleading analyses which bias the conclusive statements. For example, his procurement-to-R&D ratio (falling from 3.5 in the mid 1980’s to 1.3 now) excludes the very important factor that the Navy gamed the system and moved the first of each of its new class aircraft carrier and submarine “procurements” into the R&D account because they were “developmental.” That’s BS. They were moved into R&D so they didn’t have to get a mother-may-I from Congress every time they overran the budget for the first-of-a-class procurement.

Or that flying hours and steaming days are decreasing (which they are over the last 10 years, versus the last one year noted in the article which indicates they are not) because those accounts for the Air Force and Navy are being used to pay for emergent efforts (like the Navy’s Expeditionary Combat Command (brown water Navy)) and other Individual Augmentees in support of the Army in-theater, without an increase in topline funding or being reimbursed in the war supplemental. Or the general issue that the Pentagon’s procurement budget doesn’t really incur cost overruns. They are intentionally under budgeted to start with, so naturally the Pentagon budget is not large enough to buy the planned quantities when they cut procurement to pay for R&D. The Pentagon is not honest enough with itself to lay out the true costs and ask Congress for that amount (partly because OMB caps what they can ask for).

BOOMER is not telling you the real truth. Yes, some of our younger enlisted do qualifiy for WIC and such, but that’s because the state does not calculate the BAH/BAS into your income, and we know BAH/BAS is a good portion of your paycheck that is NOT taxed. When I was enlisted, I never once complained of what I was being paid, and what benefits I was receiving. This was is 2007, so it hasn’t changed much. Our troops are not underpaid and receive 10x better benefits then what I receive now as a civilian.

“figuring out the legitimacy of the 2/3rds military people have who NOT deployed yet.”

We’ve discussed this before, the Air Force doesn’t deploy in the same way or the same numbers as the Marines and the Army. They fly planes and run airfields, they’re not supposed to be ground pounders. The Navy regularly rotates their people on ship patrols for months at a time. The last figures I saw (couple years ago) stated about half of the entire Guard and Reserve deployed at least once. In fact over 100,000 are still mobilized at this moment. Where do you come up with this “2/3rds of military people” number you keep referring to?

According to Army Human Resources Command, as of last summer only 7% of the deployable Army hadn’t deployed. That’s roughly 25,000 troops.
http://​www​.military​.com/​n​e​w​s​/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​a​r​m​y​-​s​e​e​k​s-d…

You dont get BAH if you live in government quarters, BAS only applies to the service menbver and not his dependents. I always lived off of my paycjeck as well, but know many who could not, I was also an E6 when I got married and my spouse averaged $20.00 an hour as well, but many spouses if they do work only get min wage most of the time and that doesnt even cover child care expenses. There are also other misconceptions here, we do not get free medical being retired we pay for it and our deductables are higher than most civilian plans if you can even find a Dr who accepts TRICARE. And we dont retire at 50% of our paycheck, we retire at 50% of our base pay wich isnt much to bragg about. A senator that does one term gets three times what I get along with 100% free medical care (for one term — that is BS).

TMB,

Have checked my sources, the Defense Business Board (DBB), and want to make an apology to all. I confused 2/3rds not deploying (“non stressed”) with the DBB’s reference to “stressed” which is 25+ months of deployment. You are correct in that a high percentage of military personnel have deployed at least once. Here’s the study: http://​dbb​.defense​.gov/​p​d​f​/​S​n​a​p​s​h​o​t​_​U​t​i​l​i​z​a​t​i​o​n_F…

your lying about the housing also. DOD housing recapitalization has been much more focused on building new homes (and they are freaking nice houses) for junior rates then for senior officers. the differences is the young tend to take less care of their property in general compared to older people who have been in the service for 10–20 years

I agree that the Houses insurance and stuff are BS but that isnt anyone high ranking in the DOD’s fault

While hosing has improved in the last 10 years it is mostly on prominent bases, there are still a lot of dumps out there. And I agree that most of the new construction is keyed at E6 and below, but there is still a separation in the ranks. I had to fight to get a third bedroom after my daughter was born as an E6 (also had a 13 yr old step son), But when I made E7 I was immediate moved into a large 4 bedroom and I only had 30 days to do it even though my previous house sat empty for 6 months afterwards. I’m on Fort Hood right now and there are some nice new housing sections but there are still a lot of dumps left as well, and dont even get me going on Fort Levenworth. So how am I lying.

Simple get rid of KBR and all of the other Lazy Obese Smoking Contractor Companys whose members do nothing more than consume DFAC food and molest the TCN Subcontract workers and put the Labor back in the hands of the Armed forces and the DOD could afford to do whatever it needs to do

KBR and a lot of the other Contractor companies are extremely overpaid Why are they hireing Bosniak Muslims to do the work Americans should be doing? Why is Hector the 15 year KBR veteran able to do nothing more than wake up eat grabass with the tcn’s eat take a nap after lunch, then drive around all night looking for tcn women to molest only to sleep in the shower he is supposed to be repairing the next day? Get rid of that guy and all of the others that think Iraq is a vacation resort and the DOD would save billions I know with about 500 Highly trained Americans I could do all of the jobs of everyone at KBR that are behind the hooch smoking and drinking right now

Very good comments from all. The GI was always the cheap way to go. When I frist came in the UASF in 1967, it was $80.00 dollars a month ‚meal card, and a privte room with three other all on different shifts. We have come a long way today and should be greatful.

Amen brother!!!

From years of experience with congress funding, (cutting budget request by 15% to 22%), the military has to relay on budget overrans. The Navy’s ships being built today is 30 to 35yrs old technology. Had they been approved then the cost (except for the upgrades) would have cost 32% less. Congress feels the military should live off patriotism. Those that complain about retireing with 50% pay, and they do not get 100% medical, they pay a sur-charge for a lot of their medical, just don’t know or care what most of them go thru to get that. Many 12 to 14 or longer hour days, sometimes 7 days a-week. They don’t understand the years of training it takes to be proficient with today’s equipment. A lot of the people I have talk to are still with the WWII, Korean an even Vietnam, mind-set, that a person can be trained in 6 months and ready for war.

If people only knew the BILLIONS (under black programs/projects) going to other countries every year, more than our military budget, they would change their attitude.

Well, there’s that. Some explain to me how CBSA’s position papers lead in any other direction than doing Force Generation in any other way than continuing to commit cannibalism. The man sez, you can’t get there from here, and lo and behold, you can’t get there from here. You are caught on the wrong side of the law of diminishing returns, so less just can’t get you better any more. Here endeth the lesson.

Without Military Personel to operate our equipment, use our weapons defend our Nation and project military power towards our enemies we will be doomed.

We need first to stabilize and make certain we have people to perform vital military duties. Many of the most expensive military hardware is of little use when a determined enemy subverts it and avoids it. We need to strike a balance and we need to spend wisely.

The proud members of our military deserve a solid sense that our Nation will be there for them, they are after all all over the world for us…

I understand your frustration but you are repeating a myth.

“Under both CSRS and FERS, Members of Congress are eligible for a pension
at age 62 if they have completed at least five years of service. Members are eligible
for a pension at age 50 if they have completed 20 years of service, or at any age after
completing 25 years of service. The amount of the pension depends on years of
service and the average of the highest three years of salary. By law, the starting
amount of a Member’s retirement annuity may not exceed 80% of his or her final
salary.”

So there are more people taking money that didn’t EARN it you just confirmed and added to what I just said its basically the same game different players

It’s time to cut a bunch of the civillian “MAKE WORK” jobs from the DOD as well as putting the Officer Corps into housing just like NCO’s. This alone will slash major $$$ from the budget. Also we must either make “Total War” on our enemies like we did in WWII and get it over with or bring us home! War is about killing people and breaking things NOT anything else. If we are not in it to win and win in total then we don’t need to be there. TOTAL WAR or NO WAR, it’s real simple.

I expect our soldiers to be well paid and get decent benefits but we can’t let the “guns” side of things decay in order to do so. A solution has to be found. And we can’t fall into the British habit of the military being gutted each election in order to ease the deficit from all of their government’s social programs. It appears the UK is looking at possibly a 10% budget cut with the RAF losing plenty of aircraft as a result.

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The Congress just increased the size of the US Army and Marine Corps to allow the Iraq and Afghanistan “Surges” for needed combat capabilities. The Congress knew there where significant cost increases associated with this change and it is up to them to adequately fund the DOD for all required manpower accounts. If the problem is there is insufficient funding, then force the bailed out entities to pay back at least part of it. No where in the constitution does it state the government is responsible for poor management and out right fraud in private industry! The debate should be how to scale back the social welfare programs to fund DOD, not the other way around. I was against the bail out from the beginning and now I am against the administration that wants to fight two wars without funding them!!

Unfortunately the “guns” side has lots of lobbyists with money, and the “butter” side’s lobby (AUSA, MOA, etc) does not get the support from the rank-and-file that they need to compete with the “guns” lobby. In the end it is Congress that sets the direction (not the president or the pentagon) and they vote based on which lobbyist pays them the most. Sad but True.

I agree completely. We need to get away from this nation building crap. If the Iraqies and Afgans can’t take care of themselves by now, they never will. Yet we are spending Billions into a black hole. Also, why do we need to defend Europe? Japan may be a different story, we can make some minor exceptions if we have too. I know that someone here will say that if we leave Afganistan the Taliban will take back over. Well I have a solution for that. The way you deal with those people is to scare the hell out of them. What we do is pull all of our people and equipment out. Then in the middle of the night and out in the middle of their desert, we set off our biggest NUKE! Yes we do it at night so that everyone in that region can see it. We then tell them that if they ever screw with us again, we will turn that whole region into glass! Then when those idiot Taliban want to do their usuall stupid stuff, they won’t get much support from the locals, the locals will be more inclined to stand up and fight!

There are a lot of things they could do to reduce cost, One is get rid of all the contractors running base housing and let the troops be responsible for painting and maintaining thier units again. Another thing they can do is go back to the old exchange and commisary system to reduce cost for our troops, Walmart and SAMS is way cheaper than shoping on bases, Stop funding the Un and NATO from the military budget, STop giving away equipment to forieng governments and make them pay for it. There are a lot of other numerous ways as well. Right now there is a big contract to buy soviet weapons, mortars,rockets for iraq and afghanistan with US govt personnel doing all the leg work and oversight because they refuse to use our weapons we were going to give them (cant really blame them for wanting better rifles but we shouldnt be responsible).

CONTINUED: And more over they need to stop giving grants to every stupid cause, just stop period for 10yrs till we are out of this mess, and cut congress & the presidents pay 50%, get rid of michells staff, and cut thier expenditure funds 75% for all congress and the pres as well, sell pelosis and the other non AF1 aircaft and all the non pres staff cars, shut down the embassies in countries we definately dont get along with and fire the free loaders that run them. They dont have to take thier budget woes out on our troops.

Once again I read these kind of articles and I get really mad. I will keep saying this, WE HAVE PLENTY OF MONEY FOR DEFENSE. YES WE CAN AFFORD TO PAY OUR PEOPLE WELL AND YES WE CAN AFFORD THE BEST PLANES, TANKS, SHIPS, GUNS, ETC! Do the Math — less than 1/8th of the budget goes to Defense, over 2/3rds of the budget goes to Entitlements! Oh yeah, we can’t afford to defend ourselves, but we can afford FREE HEALTHCARE, FREE PRESCRIPTION DRUGS, WELFARE, FOOD STAMPS, FOREIGN AID, NATION BUILDING FOR IRAQ AND AFGANISTAN, FREE DEFENSE FOR EUROPE, FREE BAILOUTS FOR CROOKED BANKS AND COMPANIES, ACCORN, FREE COLLEGE, FANNIE MAE AND FREDDIE MAC, LAVISH PENSIONS FOR SORRY POLITICIANS, ALL OF THIS NANNIE STATE CRAP, DO I NEED TO GO ON?
Do you people finally get the picture?

Bring our troops home and go into a massive defense build up and get rid of all the crap that I outlined. Defense spending not only creates jobs, it creates tax revenue. Just take a look at any town or city that has a military base close to it. Take a look at the revenue it generates. Yes, I know that there is a lot of wasteful spending in Defense as well, what we need are Generals who are more interested in their troops, then they are interested in getting a lavish job with their defense contractor buddies after they retire from the military. BTW, dodbuzz, you keep writing articles like this, then you can expect my rants in response.

The issue with the costs that are being felt by the military are exacerbated by the mirad of deployments to non-hostile locations doing the work of other agencies and that which is not born by the United Nations. At the moment we have costly military contingents in Japan, Korea (ok still not quite settled), Germany, Italy, South America, Haiti, Cuba, and other places. We also still use soldiers to recuit, liaison with congress, at embassies throughout the world, and train at college campuses. The mission workload at these non-critical locations drains manpower and resources from the focal point of our effort. I would suggest that a real serious adjustment of the missions and tasks which are not critical to the effort should be pared down. Congress and the executive branch have become to accustomed to asking the military to do State Department, USAID, UN, contract security, personnel acquisition, humanitarian, disaster relief and other tasks without regard to the costs.

Before you youngsters get all gung ho on cutting TRICARE benifits you should know that many of it’s recipients are paid retirement based on a pay table from many years ago that is a LOT LOWER than the current one. Instead of an E-1 recruit starting at over a thousand a month, some of us started at $78 a month. Even allowing for inflation, that’s a lot lower scale than today.

The fat cats in congress force systems and expenses on the military that are neither needed or wanted but represent business and jobs for organizations in the conress’ districts. Look to those billions for funding.

For the record, I do believe in helping people who really can NOT work or take care of themselves. I believe that is best done on a more local and state level. When you get the Federal Govt involved, for every dollar the Federal Govt spends to “help”, only 25 cents out of that dollar makes it to where it is supposed to go. The Federal Govt is very inefficient and bloated. I do believe in taking care of people that have served in our military. The part I don’t like is seeing those people who can work, but refuse to, or people who are here illegally. No, not all of them come here for work, if you don’t believe me, just cut off all of this free stuff that they get and see how many of them go back home on their own.

TJRedNeck has it right. Would we be talking about cutting back on civilian entitlements, which exceed the total defense budget and arguing that if we don’t we’ll have to cut the pensions and pork programs TJ has pointed out? Never. A lot of these comments are as correct. Eliminate the protection we offer around the world and get nothing in return for and build our military, fund our troops, give them equal benefits to all those overweight federal and state employees sitting in buildings shuffling paper. In CA one employee gets an annual pension of $700K+ and there are lots more earning ridiculous numbers like hers, she’s just the top of the pay heap. We shouldn’t even be having this conversation. Despicable.

I think its time to bring the troops home!! If we don’t have the money to suport them, bring them home. I’ve seen this same crap for 30 + years. The Pres. needs some lessons on economics, most of the rest of us have to live by a budget. Stop paying many billions of USD on illegal aliens, I think AZ, OK, and several other states have the right idea. Then we may be able to keep the BBB’s comingfor the troops.
Semper Fi

Aren’t we forgetting something here?
The primary consitutional reason for the Fed to exist, is to fund the Defense of the States!

Whatever it takes. The Feds job is not to fund a whole raft of social programs which does nothing but reduce the incentive to find productive work. The Defense Budget as a portion of the entire federal budget has been continually squeezed since the end of the cold war! The reason for the shrinking military funding has nothing to do with economics and everthing to do with an initiative that believes that there is no nation on earth which is capable of attacking us, so if we don’t have a military, we won’t be so inclined to use them. This kind of thinking along with the threat of shrinking budgets is the same thinking that led to our unwelcome introduction into WWII. We were not prepared to fend off an attack by some power in the world. And just because Extermists have no state allegience, doesn’t mean they are not a power to threaten our entire nation and world interests!

You said, “This is wonderful! But, is it the right thing to do? What’s so wonderful about sticking our noses in everything that goes on everywhere — in the world.

I spent 20 years active and reserve duty. Looking back, I can’t see anywhere we made any positive difference. Korea? Nam?

the old Laugh in TV series had a segment — with a Japanese Sailor and a German soldier. One says: ‘Ve’re da fastest growing economy in Asia. The German replys: ‘Ve’re da’ the fastest growning economy in Europe. Then, they both turn to the audience and say: “I ‘Vonder’ how the ‘Vinners’ are doing?”

All those lives lost, futures destroyed — and over a 13 trillion dollar debt. And an invasion from Mexico.
No ‘Laugh-in’ matter. And we’re not the ‘Vinners’. Bob McDonagh

If we lose on every deal; maybe we can make it up in volume. There are people in power (some for decades) that feel we can keep accumalating debt — and that inflation will wipe it out. I don’t subscribe to that theory. Bob McDonagh

I have the exact opposite opinion as you.

Why are we paying civilians to do the job of the military, such as recruiting, teaching, liaisons postings? Also those overseas bases are not only a recruiting tool but also are part of our strategic alliances and a show of support for your allies. For example please show me the math use to say that a 180,000.00 per year (that is the employee pay, god know what the government is charged) vehicle recovery specialist for KBR is more cost effective that a 51,000.00 a year army solider.

In relation to the emergency relief issues as a NGO Nongovernmental organization many will not operate in hostile areas, so a military force in needed to control/regulate these types of environments so NGO’s can do their missions.

goverment officals are paid too much! Stop making congressmen and senators millionaires! and giving them two healthcare sysytems free for life! They should want to serve for the good of the country..And sooner rather than latter we need to cut back on immagrationand american corporations running over seas taking away our jobs and tax base „,I SAID TAX BASE,why do you think we can’t afford anything now a days!!!!

In the simplest terms, the DOD “guns and butter” problem comes down to the fact that veterans’ lifespans are longer and more people are added to the retirement system each year than drop out of the system because they died. The increasing population of veterans who receive benefits means that more money must come from somewhere to pay for the increasing costs.

There are only so many places you can get the money to pay for (from a DOD perspective) a non-productive population. You can increase efficiency , improve support operations, cut the size of the active military and their mission, s cut back on equipment procurement, cut back on retiree benefits. or you can raise taxes.

Similar to the problem that American car companies face. The non-productive (retiree) population with associated benefit costs grow each year. There is only so much you can cut costs and increase the car price to pay for these benefits before people stop buying your cars.

Did anyone take note of BHO’s converting many support contractors to permanent, high-paid government workers? He bloated the civilian side of the house for years to come.

exactly AND THAT kbr GUY IS SLEEPING IN HIS HOOCH BURNING UP TOO MUCH WATER AND BEANS AND SMOKING CIGGARRETTES AND DRINKING COFFEE 90% OF THE TIME AND YOUR MOTHER AND YOUR WIFE AND YOUR SON THE aMERICAN TAXPAYERS ARE PAYING FOR IT AND THEN HE IS SENDING HIS WAY TOO MUCH MONEY BACK TO BOSNIA AND GIVING IT TO HIS DRUG LORD CORRUPT COUNTRYMEN

Very good Sir

That’s not the way it is in the Air Force. I live in an AF apartment tower overseas and housing is based on number of dependents, not rank. I’m an O-5 and across the hall from me in the same exact floor plan apartment is an E-4. I’m an O-5 but I have to live in the apartment tower while several E-9s on base live in new townhouses. Heck, my O-6 boss lives in the same tower I do and the E-9 townhouses are much nicer than our apartments. The 3-star’s house on base isn’t that much nice than my apartment incidentally. Most of the time when I go TDY to an AF base there is no difference in officer or enlisted lodging/billeting and we have combined clubs nowadays too. I don’t see much of a gap at in the AF at least between the facilities available to officers and enlisted and they are usually same. The pay differential is large but in my personal experience, the Es on WIC and food stamps are the ones with 4–5 kids and that is their own fault if you ask me.

I’ll mostly agree with you on this one. When I was overseas in Japan, I saw the on-base housing for some of our O-6 group commanders and they were the same size and layout as what the rest of our enlisted (E-1 through E-9) were living in on base. An E-3 was living in nicer housing than his E-5 supervisor, because the E-3 had children whereas his E-5 supervisor didn’t… which reinforces your point being on housing based on dependents.

Though I have seen single E-5’s with only one child on WIC and food stamps because COLA (or lack thereof), BAH and BAS weren’t up to date. Because really, if BAH is going to be $1048 yet when there’s no on-base housing available and the only off-base housing that’s in that price range is in the crime and drug-infested ghetto… wouldn’t you also pay the extra $200–300 to NOT live in a crime and drug-infested area, especially for the safety of your child? Also, BAS does not account for dependents. COLA would be nice if it had wider coverage for certain states (ahem, California) that have a lot of taxes and fees that nickel-and-dime your pocketbook.

As Gates pushes for DOD “cost cutting” for the future, the sword of “cost savings” may come closer and closer to cutting these benefits.…..especially for the retired/disabled. Next to personnel cuts, benefits are the quickest items cut by management, whether it is in the corporate world or the government/military world. Fear the ‘budget cutter” as he never looks at real people or their lives/troubles when he starts his business !!

Its about self-discipline and ego. These things apply to nations as much as they do to individuals.____What is more typical than brash young men whose mouths write checks that their bodies can’t cash? And what is more typical for those young men to grow into men who write checks their BANKS can’t cash? And in all cases, it’s because these men, whether young or old, want more than they can afford. They exceed the limits of their ability to pay for their ambitions.____Well, like a typical young man, America continues to try and do just a shade more in the world than we have the capability to do. This is America’s past. Can we afford it as our future?____Times are changing. The world economy is contracting and, more painfully for us, America’s economy is shrinking because everyone works cheaper overseas. That collective checkbook of ours is shrinking.____Broadly speaking, our choices go beyond guns and butter. We can either choose national policies suited to a teenaged boy, who impulsively asserts himself no matter the cost

Your an idiot, or even worse, a LIBERAL who hasn’t put his life on the line for his country. I am a Purple Heart recipient and a Military Retiree who relies on Tricare/Humana to make ends meet in my household. I worked 22 years for our Government for pay that was three times below the national average for the job that I did. I was not able to invest “extra” income. I was promised health care for my me and my Family for this shortage in equality pay; now you suggest the soldiers bear the burden of health care when we/they are sustaining injuries in order to keep your liberal a&% free? You have no clue what is going on mister, in order not to look like an idiot, you should not talk.

Let’s cut or reduce the pay of the DOD civilian overhead costs, like secretaries making $70k plus.

Also don’t forget illegal alien universal health care costs will be rolling in shortly so it’s only right that troops should absorb some of the burdens of this via reduced Tricare benefits.

Since veterans make up such a small percentage of the population, there are certainly other groups that can be focused on, like some of the dead weight government civilians that provide little service and extract maximum benefits. I’m not saying all government employees but there is a noticalble percentage that fall in that category. Government employee lifespans are longer and more people are added to the retirement system each year than drop out of the system because they died. The increasing population of government retirees who receive benefits means that more money must come from somewhere to pay for the increasing costs. There are only so many places you can get the money to pay for (from a DOD perspective) a non-productive population. You can increase efficiency , improve support operations, cut the size of the current government employees cut back on governmental retiree benefits. Similar to the problem that American car companies face. The non-productive ( government retiree) population with associated benefit costs grow each year.

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