New Coalitions Threaten DoD Bucks

New Coalitions Threaten DoD Bucks

Change is coming to the Pentagon. The prevailing wisdom is that Secretary of Defense Robert Gates brings it. Real change is, indeed, in the wind, but it is not coming from Gates. The long overdue program terminations and overhead savings Gates pursues are surely welcome, but they are not bringing the re-birth the Pentagon desperately needs. Luckily, others seek to do what is needed.

Gates commands real respect. Against all odds, last year he and President Obama terminated the uber-expensive, underperforming F-22 fighter. This year, Gates seeks to end further production of the superfluous C-17 transport and kill off a second engine for the high cost, kluge-like F-35 “Joint Strike Fighter.” Impressing many, he has also instructed the Pentagon to cut bureaucratic fat by $102 billion.

When you scratch the surface, it’s a little less impressive.


While Gates and Obama won that Titanic F-22 fight last year, they waffled on the C-17 and let 18 more be produced. This year, Gates says he means it on the C-17, but the C-17 porkers are laying in wait for him in the Senate where they have the votes, and the House C-17 porkers lust to tag along.

More problematic is Gates selection of the second F-35 engine to take a stand on. In 2009, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) repeated a previous internal DOD study saying the second engine, bought competitively, could save money. Nonetheless, Gates — now with Obama belatedly backing him — says he’ll get the bill vetoed if it endorses any competition between F-35 engines.

Gates’$102 billion reduction in overhead is a cumulative goal for five years, not one, and the bigger savings don’t arrive until the elusive (may-never-happen) out-years. This will be after Gates, maybe even Obama, is long gone. The first year savings ($7 billion) is a puny 1.2 percent of the 2012 Pentagon spending plan. The public schedule includes no savings in the next fiscal year, the one for 2011 that doesn’t even start until next October.

According to an internal Defense Business Board study, DOD spends 40 percent of its funds on overhead. If the whole $102 billion is saved, and if it all comes out of overhead (which is not the plan), DOD spending for bureaucratic fat will be reduced only 8.5 percent. The administrative bloat would go down, but only from 40 percent to 37 percent of total DOD spending.

Similar timidity and procrastination is recommended by the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Ike Skelton, D-MO. Having finished shepherding the 2011 DOD authorization bill through the House of Representatives last month, Skelton now announces that next year will he look at saving money. The only sum he would identify is “X amount.” Expect little to nothing from this diffidence, and you will not be disappointed.

Others are less timid. Congressman Barney Frank, D-MA, has put together an alternative DOD budget plan to reduce spending there by $1 Trillion over ten years. He has logic on his side: since 2000, the Pentagon’s “base” budget has gone up by the same amount ($1 Trillion), in addition to the $1 Trillion also spent on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Remarkably, two smart, tough Republicans have associated themselves with Congressman Frank, Walter Jones of North Carolina and Ron Paul of Texas. That Frank has this bipartisan support in this hyper-partisan age indicates that real change is occurring.

Another proposal, auguring even more fundamental change, has been offered. The proposal suggests a broad political coalition encompassing progressive Democrats, conservative Republicans, and government fundamentalists, such as libertarians and tea baggers.

Senator Tom Coburn, R-OK, is a member of President Obama’s National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform to control all federal spending. As the co-chair of the commission’s panel on discretionary spending, which includes the DOD budget, Coburn has sent a pretty interesting, eight page letter to all commission members. (Find it at Coburn’s website at http://​coburn​.senate​.gov/​p​u​b​l​i​c​/​i​n​d​e​x​.​c​f​m​?​a​=​F​i​l​e​s​.​S​e​r​v​e​&​a​m​p​;​F​i​l​e​_​i​d​=​3​a​e​2​3​7​2​7​-​6​b​b​e​-​4​c​e​1​-​8​5​1​6​-​2​b​8​2​7​2​6​9​1​1cc.)

Coburn outlines how our military forces have become smaller, older, and less ready to fight at the highest level of Pentagon spending — adjusted for inflation — since the end of World War II. (Both Republican and Democratic presidents, including Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama, have made it so, with the eager assistance of Congress.) Coburn offers several recommendations to reverse the corrosive tide, but the central theme is to freeze the defense budget unless and until it can pass an audit.

Pass an audit? What does that have to do with it?

Today, the Pentagon’s comprehension of its own material resources is a deep, dark void. It can’t track its own money; it cooks its own books to make them appear in balance, and then it makes new spending decisions based on the phony data. Nor can it accurately track its own property, even supplies to the troops fighting in Afghanistan. There are three decades of GAO and DOD Inspector General reports on this mess.

Coburn has the good sense to understand that you can’t fix a system you can’t measure and to have lost patience with empty promises that it will all be fixed — someday.

Imagine not just a Pentagon that can accurately track what it pays to contractors and every weapon program is audited regularly; imagine a Pentagon where the purposefully biased estimates for the cost, schedule, and performance of a new weapon are laughed out of the building until they get an auditable, accountable, independent assessment of what it will really cost, what it will actually do, and when it truly might arrive.

Moreover, the Coburn proposal makes the Barney Frank proposal plausible. A trillion dollars less spent as it is now would be the worst of both worlds, but that much less spent in the manner Coburn suggests, with competence and accountability, is the change everyone talks about but can’t produce.

Business as usual at the Pentagon may be about to meet its worst nightmare: a broad political coalition to put its undisciplined spending under severe restraint and to fundamentally reform the way it makes decisions.

Join the Conversation

Dude, maybe you should rethink throwing in the “tea bagger” reference when you are trying to sound serious.

Winslow does write to draw attention — by describing programs in controversial terms. As a persistent critic of the F-35, it is still inaccurate to describe it as “kluge-like”. Overly complex — yes.

I do like to hear the opinions of different writers, but Winslow crosses the line from reporter over to advocate. He is the Helen Thomas of defense perhaps.

Still, he has excellent points about the scandalous state of the DoD accounting process — it rivals the disarray evident in the accounts for mining or oil from Native American owned properties. There are always plans for saving money — that start “in a few years”.

But still, any article that describes the ineffective and isolated Ron Paul as a smart and tough Republican — needs to be heavily edited.

Like Winslow Wheeler’s ramblings (and I read his book), a Pentagon decision to fund or not fund some item often doesn’t mean what the public things it hears. For example, cutting the F-22 production was an affordability decision when big money had to be found. You’re not going to fight and win a war with a major power with the few replacement aircraft the Air Force was able to buy. Same thing with C-17. Highly useful for all those same insurgency wars we will be fighting in the future to maintain our American Empire and keep the resources flowing (mainly oil), but sorry, I can’t afford any more. It’s not that I truly don’t need any more. But I can’t public say that with a $700 billion I can’t quite seem to make the rights decisions so I can afford more. So let me say I don’t need them and works just as well. Winslow has forgotten than there will be a huge countervailing wind, called defense contractors and employees (who vote through elections), that will coopt his new coalition.

I certainly agree that calling the F35 “kluge-like” is a bit over the top (although a few years may well turn proclamation into prophesy).

But I have to object to the Helen Thomas reference. While it’s true that Thomas irritated her fellow journalists with her advocacy she was forced to retire not for expressing her opinion but for making racist/anti-semitic comments. There is a difference. Dropping a Helen Thomas reference in this context is something like responding to the latest rants from Hugo Chavez with an ICBM — effective but over the top, not unlike, say, describing the F35 as “kluge-like”

It’s is interesting to contrast the frugality that we say we must impose on DoD programs that in general represent one of the few areas the the US is still the best in the world, while at the same time spending nearly $1T on bailouts for business sectors that are behind the times and failing. US defense items are still one of the largest export sectors helping to stave off even worse trade deficits. The approach being taking will likely shrink the DoD industrial base even further and result in a worsening trade deficit. With this “leadership” the US is on its way to becoming the next Great Britain.

Oh come on now! Helen has just been in the news a lot and my comment does not imply racist motives for Winslow. Had I said Glenn Beck or Keith Olberman — you would have not objected. But they are all “advocacy journalists”.

Your comment verges on being “kluge-like” itself.

:sigh: It’s kind of lame to see DoDBuzz support such a blatant troll poster. Was it a slow news day or something? I mean, why no word about Iridium?

Mod the above comment by “brilliant” up.

Good Evening Folks,

I agree with the prevailing opinion here, this is a rather lame and incoherent article. What the DoD doesn’t understand is first its mission is to fight and win wars, something the past fifty years it hasn’t been able to do.

Secondly is the economic times, with a nation debt approaching 90% of (reported) GDP the purchase of unneeded weapons systems and platforms that have no effect on the wars we are fighting out of the question.

There may be some real shockers in the near future such as the question that was in one of Greg’s articles of yesterday on another mil​.com site, Sec. Gates, most likely in anger, ask the Marines a question, It went something like this, “…what can the Marines do besides amphibious landings?” The very clear implication in this question, was not the EFV which was the topic of Greg’s article, but why do we need a Marine Corp.

Its time for the Pentagon to wake up and realize that its not their money but taxpayers money. Frankly anybody that cares to listen to the public will find a high level of dissatisfaction and frustration on why we are still in Iraq and Afghanistan. Todays new item that General McCrystal thinks we might have to postpone an operation Kandhar and stay longer is not what the public wants to hear.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Not only is Wheeler’s article filled with flaws the man does very little to hide his bias.

First of all the F-22A not under-performing, and is hardly super expensive for the capabilities it brings to the table. The C-17A is not superfluous considering how there always seems to be a shortage of strategic airlift assets when the Army needs it. And the way the A400M program seems to be going, additional export orders in the future are certainly a possibility.

Procurement is NOT where the funding needs to be cut. We need new equipment and need to keep the edge over potential enemies. Effort must to be taken to reduce the money lost due to bureaucracy, red tape, and mismanagement, but we should still be getting new aircraft, ships, tanks, and so forth.

As a percentage of the GDP today’s DoD spending isn’t all that impressive compared to historical figures. If the government wants to cut the deficit it should be looking at all of the mandatory spending, bailouts, and broken social programs, not the force that keeps our country safe. That money saved from fixing all of the mismanagement and redundant bureaucratic mess in the DoD should be funneled back to the goal of modernizing our military, and yes that should include the F-22.

If the F-35 program does fail, and despite the problems I doubt it will, it will not be due to the aircraft being overcomplicated, but rather trying to make one airframe do too much. Same case as the F-111.

Maybe if our leadership did not telegraph a pull out date to the terrorists, the Afgan surge may have worked out better, like in Iraq. Charles Krauthammer had a good piece concerning this.

Also I would hardly label the Cold War and Gulf War I as non-wins.

Spoken like a true government contractor. Cheers.

Byron, I lov ya man, buy you a beer some day, but “What the DoD doesn’t understand is first its mission is to fight and win wars, something the past fifty years it hasn’t been able to do.”

Come on. You have to give us Grenada, Panama, and Persian Gulf War as three clear “wins.” Kosovo was at least a good try, if not entirely conclusive. Now if you said “to fight and win wars using effective weapon systems and with minimal waste,” then I might agree.

Maybe if our prior leadership could manage to finish a war in less than nine years, the Iraq and Afghan conflicts wouldn’t be draining our coffers today. Charles Krauthammer is an idiot and a Bush apologist.

Overly complicated airframe and doing too much in one airframe. Aren’t those the same things?

Well the airframe itself is of rather conventional design, it isn’t VG or anything horribly complex. The problem is one airframe simply can’t be optimized for everything.

Wait, are you accusing me of getting paid by somebody to post here like Byron always does? I don’t like the way money is lost in all of this contractor mismanagement and so forth. There is no excuse for this Boeing/EADS tanker mess for example.

Regarding the alleged “scandalous state of the DOD accounting process” (and Senator Coburn’s comments on that subject in his letter to the Fiscal Responsibility Commission).

Here’s a letter I sent the Commission (cc: to Senator Coburn’s office) offering a different view:

May 28, 2010
The Honorable Alan Simpson
Mr. Erskine Bowles
National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility
1650 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20504

Dear Senator Simpson and Mr. Bowles:

As a DOD researcher with more than 30 years of experience thinking about these matters, I’m writing to offer a perspective on financial-management problems at the DOD that differs from the perspective Senator Tom Coburn offers in his letter to you of May 18, 2010: (http://​coburn​.senate​.gov/​p​u​b​l​i​c​/​i​n​d​e​x​.​c​f​m​?​F​u​s​e​A​c​t​i​o​n​=​F​i​l​e​s​.​V​i​e​w​&​a​m​p​;​F​i​l​e​S​t​o​r​e​_​i​d​=​3​3​e​6​7​8​4​c​-​7​b​a​b​-​4​3​d​e​-​8​3​c​3​-​6​2​4​6​b​a​1​7​7​2c9 )

My difference with Senator Coburn is not about whether the Pentagon needs to do a better job of understanding and reporting its costs (he’s correct to call for those things) but rather about how the Pentagon should go about doing that.

Senator Coburn thinks “a crash program to have the Pentagon pass a financial audit” is the way to proceed. While well-meaning, that recommendation fails to recognize the difference between financial accounting and cost accounting. The former is about producing GAAP-compliant balance sheets and income statements meant to measure profits and losses, while the latter is about understanding costs – and it is the latter, not the former, that the Pentagon ought to be pursuing.

“Financial Accounting at the DOD: Reviewing the Bidding,” a paper I wrote for the Defense Acquisition Review Journal, explains and expands on the above. It was published in the July 2009 issue of the Journal and can be accessed in its entirety at: http://​www​.dau​.mil/​p​u​b​s​c​a​t​s​/​P​u​b​s​C​a​t​s​/​H​a​n​k​s​.​pdf.

Sincerely,

Christopher Hanks

cc: Senator Tom A. Coburn

Regarding the alleged “scandalous state of the DOD accounting process” (and Senator Coburn’s comments on that subject in his letter to the Fiscal Responsibility Commission).

Here’s a letter I sent the Commission (cc: to Senator Coburn’s office) offering a different view:

May 28, 2010
The Honorable Alan Simpson
Mr. Erskine Bowles
National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility
1650 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20504

Dear Senator Simpson and Mr. Bowles:

As a DOD researcher with more than 30 years of experience thinking about these matters, I’m writing to offer a perspective on financial-management problems at the DOD that differs from the perspective Senator Tom Coburn offers in his letter to you of May 18, 2010: (http://​coburn​.senate​.gov/​p​u​b​l​i​c​/​i​n​d​e​x​.​c​f​m​?​F​u​s​e​A​c​t​i​o​n​=​F​i​l​e​s​.​V​i​e​w​&​a​m​p​;​F​i​l​e​S​t​o​r​e​_​i​d​=​3​3​e​6​7​8​4​c​-​7​b​a​b​-​4​3​d​e​-​8​3​c​3​-​6​2​4​6​b​a​1​7​7​2c9 )

My difference with Senator Coburn is not about whether the Pentagon needs to do a better job of understanding and reporting its costs (he’s correct to call for those things) but rather about how the Pentagon should go about doing that.

Senator Coburn thinks “a crash program to have the Pentagon pass a financial audit” is the way to proceed. While well-meaning, that recommendation fails to recognize the difference between financial accounting and cost accounting. The former is about producing GAAP-compliant balance sheets and income statements meant to measure profits and losses, while the latter is about understanding costs – and it is the latter, not the former, that the Pentagon ought to be pursuing.

“Financial Accounting at the DOD: Reviewing the Bidding,” a paper I wrote for the Defense Acquisition Review Journal, explains and expands on the above. It was published in the July 2009 issue of the Journal and can be accessed in its entirety at: http://​www​.dau​.mil/​p​u​b​s​c​a​t​s​/​P​u​b​s​C​a​t​s​/​H​a​n​k​s​.​pdf.

Sincerely,

Christopher Hanks

cc: Senator Tom A. Coburn
Report

Read more: http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​1​0​/​0​6​/​1​0​/​n​e​w​-​c​o​a​l​i​t​i​o​ns-…

But we could have easily afforded more F-22s.

Completely agree. That single phrase does your otherwise well-written article a dis-service. I had to stop and read it three times before I realized that yes, you did just use “tea bagger” in an otherwise well thought out and written piece.

The last person to conquer Afghanistan was Alexander The Great, circa 300 BCE. After every so-called conquerer has left, the country has reverted to its tribal structure with a primary cash crop of opium poppies.
Why should we believe we can change two thousand years of tribal culture and history?

Good Morning Folks,

I will stand by what I said about winning wars. Anyone reading recent literature on the cold war era can come to only one conclusion and that is the Soviet Union expired because of it policies not because of anything the US military did.

Every one of the Soviet five year plans from the first in 1933 to the last that ended in 1963 did in fact achieve it goals. The problem was the Soviets set the wrong goals and because of severity of the consequences for criticizing the state few dared to speak up. Things just kept going on as before. The problem was of course the wrong goals were set.

The notion that the huge defense build up of the 1980’s forced the Soviets to throw in the towel is utter nonsense and is nothing more then ideological ego stroking on the part of the US. The Soviets never did sit down and say among themselves, oh the US has a new aircraft carrier, we need to build two, this only occurred in the American mind.

Winning The first Gulf War in 1991, if I recall we had to go back in 2003, and going on eight years later we still can’t say “Mission Complete”, thats a rather twisted notion of victory.

I don’t recall anybody calling Grenada or Panama wars. But if you insist. In Grenada a rather small and under armed group of Cubans in the hills held off a Brigade of the 82nd. and a Battalion or Rangers, until finally were forced out of the hills when a battery of 105mm Howitzers. was brought in. The SEALS lost a team in the surf, they drowned and the Marines flew a CH-46 into a cliff. All to “rescue” some American Medical students.

In Panama we started off landing a SEAL team who’s mission was compromised, they lost some men and only alerted the Panamanians that we were coming. The Army the proceeded to drop a Battalion of Rangers on the airport runway, nobody in the got the word out that cement is hard and airport runways are made of cement. Finally the Panama National Guard proved to much for the Americans to handle so a Tank Battalion from the 5th. ID at Ft. Polk had to be brought in. Finally it was Rock Music through loud speakers that saved the day. Not a good victory for the US.

Lets face it the DoD has been a failure since WW II at winning wars. The Americans for 65 years have spent $ trillion for a great charade. The only positive thing that can be said was the DoD provided jobs. Of course these jobs are nothing more then a redistribution of wealth from me to the defense, DoD worker. No wealth is produced here, and in fact DoD spending is an anchor holding economic growth back.

First census numbers from 2010 are indicating that change is on the way and it will be fast track. With the accumulated numbers of minorities becoming the majority economic priorities will/are changeing. The Pentagon/DoD must wake up and accept that its budget is not an entitlement that the services can divvy up for what ever takes their fancy, but is the money of tax payers who have other priorities besides military officers careers and supporting a bloated defense industrial establishment.

It appears that Sec. Gates and President Obama see this new “reality”.

Next, why do we need the “Marines?”

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

the state.

I guess the only positve comment about our current military is that we are the worlds only superpower that can actually still project power globally. Other than that, I guess we suck.

Skinner, You talk intelligently about some issues and then you lose all credibilty by saying things completely off the wall. Interesting trait that I do not think I have ever witnessed before, almost a bipolar intellegence/ignorance mentality.

On the topic of the F136 spare engine, please see: http://​www​.thebuckstopsnow​.org/​2​0​1​0​/​0​6​/​b​u​c​k​-​m​c​keo…

Good Afternoon Folks,

To guest. Where am I wrong, show me? We are the super power mostly by default, who is number two?

The United States is the third largest country in the world by population, economically we are several time larger them the combined total of the top two.

To enforce out position we have some big sticks more then the rest of the world combined, yet we feel we need more sticks, why?

On the American population one of the first stats to come out is: For every angle who dies one is born, for every non anglo who dies nine are born. There is a pot here.

A large percentage of our new Americans are immigrants form countries where the military is less the beloved and could even by the reason the left. The idea of a huge military to them is dangerous. The percentage of none anglos by groups have paid a higher price for fighting in the current wars then the anglo community, any of you who read a major daily has seen articles about mother and fathers of the who have given their live in Iraq and Afghanistan wondering why so many of their group has had to make the sacrifice.

These are the voters who will be deciding what the Pentagon/DoD’s budget will be in the future. One can never tell what the future will be but I wouldn’t be surprised if these newly empowered groups will not think things like healthcare, education, retirement income, better standard of living are perhaps more important ten the Pentagon.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Where are you wrong? Implying that we should disband the Marine Corp for starters.

If these immigrants are coming to this country and disrespecting those who defend their new-found rights and freedoms, they shouldn’t have come to our country in the first place! The racial makeup of the Army largely mirrors that of the country itself, so we really don’t need accusations of racism there.

If these new voters you speak of put personal comforts paid by the government before the defenders of this country, we have them to thank for putting us on the path to ruin. Obama and company can keep the change. We need the same spirit we had back in the 80s. Peace through strength, not “progressive” bury our heads in the sand doctrine. And who are even these “new empowered voters” you are talking about?

I’m actually stunned to read Wheeler’s implied support for a MORE modernized and ready-to-fight, capable military (not necessarily larger, but modernized and more ready, as opposed to the current state of the military). Did anyone else catch that?

I’d truly be curious if he could elaborate on 10 ideas how he would modernize and equip a more capable and ready military accordingly. There’s simply too much fat and empty words in the above article outside of his obvious opinions of F-22, the 2nd engine and the C-17. It would be nice to see him actually reveal and articulate more specific thoughts and ideas.

It is hard to take anybody seriously when they can’t offer some valid alternatives. He wants a modern force and so do I, yet if the F-22 and F-35 don’t cut it, are we supposed to keep flying F-15s and F-16s forever? That is hardly modernizing anything.

Mr. Skinner obviously has multiculturalism running through his veins and uses it as the prism by which he views future US defense priorities. He should forget being “MC” for a moment and instead concentrate on “EC”…Economics. The massing U.S. debt will have a much stronger influence on all kinds of spending down the road as opposed to the percentage of Hispanics that exist in the nation.

And I simply love it when posters across the internet tie the monstrous U.S. debt to the defense department’s neck, as if the mere pursuit of armaments is why we’re replacing all black inkpens with red ones.

You could freeze defense spending for the next decade and the U.S. will still be on a path to fiscal armageddon with unchecked social entitlement spending. You could even eliminate the defense department today & still run annual fiscal deficits as far as the eye can see.

Few with a modicum of sanity would say the DoD should be exempted from budgetary reform. However, it’s also not plausible to suggest/hint/wink that everything fiscally wrong with our country begin and end with that five-sided polygon in Washington.

Good Morning Folks,

I see the anti immigrant ideological conservative wingers who have been on the wrong side of American History since the “Seven Years War” are doing their usual thing. But I guess all endangered species react the sane way.

The number tell it all, you can bit** about multiculturalism all you like, the fact is The United States has always been a multi-cultural country. The census numbers say it all. As with most historical trends it’s about population and anglo winger conservative have not done a very good job in the bedroom. In short you have let you cause down.

I love it that all non anglos are welfare recipients, criminals and other undesirables. Of course the vast majority are not, but that doesn’t fit in you self serving ideology.

Look around all you conservative wingers who want to boot out all the immigrants, look down, you are standing in your socks. It is the young hard working immigrants that are wearing, and always have worn the steel toed boots.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

I find it amusing that simply by posing the question of “Do we need the Marines?”, that I’m in fact advocating getting rid of the Corp. I am not, but if anybody wants to defend the Marines just for the sake of debate and sh**s and giggles, I will trash them, it’s not that hard.

Well, for all his seeming sophistication (masquerading as condescension, actually) Mr. Skinner’s views are as transparent as a glass house…which is coincidental as it seems that’s where he lives.

My original post had 8 sentences, with 1.5 of them even mentioning “multiculturalism”. It should be clear to most *impartial* readers that America’s debt crisis was really the thrust of my disagreement with his preceeding post to mine. However, I guess the tint of the overall room color makes it hard to discern that if you’re wearing blue-tinted lenses.

My post said nothing derogatory about Hispanic, Asian, or South American immigrants to this nation, but the reply it engenders is one that fires shots across the bow. Apparently if you even mention the word multiculturalism around Mr. Skinner, and don’t use it in a type of sentence he likes (or something) then you’re automatically a xenophobic gun-clinging, Bible-toting right-wingers, I’m guessing. Attempted character assasination by murky association, if you will.

After all, in one short reply from him the term “winger” came up 3 times and for backup called on the terms “endangered species” & one I especially loved…“anglo-wingers”…hmmm…that last one sounds like something you’d order at Buffalo Wild Wings.

As with many on a certain side of the ideological divide, it **seems** that diversity is something best practiced by a room of people who all look different but think precisely alike, n’est-ce pas?.

To the subject at hand on DoD Buzz…I stand by what I said — Our burgeoning debt crisis will do far more to make defense-related choices for us that will any migration of Hispanics or Asians to these shore lines. It will be much harder to justify multi-hundred billion $$$ defense programs with a government determined to push overall debt levels up to and past GDP levels over the coming decade. And in Mr. Skinner’s eyes I’ll no doubt practice a bit of ageism when I say Heaven help us when the baby boomers start to retire en masse…

Have a wonderful weekend everyone,

Ciao

Good Evening Folks,

I don’t think I mentioned any names but spoke in a generalization Joe. I do agree with you on our current economic situation will change the budget landscape in Washington even if no other factors come into play.

There are two ways to pay off that debt either retire treasury debt (bonds, which by the way are mostly held by American financial institutions not foreign governments) or to increase growth and lower the percentage of debt to GDP.

The point it appears that we disagree on is the will of the American people support the status quo, clearly from the past two elections cycles social programs social programs have become more important then defense or broad infrastructure programs.

The next round of jumbo transportation and agricultural legislation that comes before congress will have a much different reception from the emerging new Congress then they have for decades. What is taking place right now in the Gulf I have little doubt will shape environmental and big oil legislation.

I will not attempt to speculate who is the “new diversity” race, religion, age, gender really doesn’t matter much. The economic interests are for the large part anglo that have relied on predictable political blocks and allies in Congress, w some of these relationships go back to the earliest days of our country have matured and are now fading.

Money is no longer made by investing in land, labor and production, far greater returns can be found in speculating in the movement up or down of currencies, in derivatives which have no tangible values. These of course are the trading institutions that have been blessed with to big to fail designation.

Big ticket “investment” defense project that are a legacy of the past will be had to sell. By the Pentagon own estimation the US has no emerging peer, or no near peer military competition. The next level, the fourth is held by friendly countries, the UK and EU, at the fifth level called emerging regional competitors we find The Russian Federation, China, India, Pakistan and Israel. The list stops here.

This new reality will shape and determine how public money is spent. Will Americans in the future be willing to die to protect a derivative market that give them no tangible benefits? What kind of weapons would the Pentagon need to protect the interest of currency speculators?

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

B.S.,

Just for discussion… I would propose in truth, that USMC could and should be reduced in manpower by 50%, but increased (at least three fold) in global 24-36hr rapid reaction capability and w/ better squad level equipment and special ops/airborne capabilities.

I would trash anyone who would say: completely get rid of Marines.

Byron, you attack the Marine Corp and evidently support slowly gutting our military to pay for entitlements and social programs that will eventually put us on the same path as Greece. Yet when confronted about these views, you resort to nonsensical leftist buzzwords and claims of racism and “anti-immigration” ideologies. Since when does opposing people illegally crossing our borders make one a racist? I have no problem with immigrants but they should have something to offer our country, and should come here the lawful way. If that makes me a racist, than you truly live in some sort of warped alternate liberal reality.

A nation that spends anywhere from $70 — $120 billion on defense (depending on whose Chinese estimates you find more logical) and has averaged double-digit increases in that budget the past decade will hardly remain a “5th level” military competitor for long.

Do a 15-year range on US and Chinese defense spending (and assume slightly declining US budgets and Chinese growth at past rates or even slightly lower ones) and you will see a situation that, on the low end, will approach parity and on the high end will witness China surpassing American spending on armaments…if that is the ultimate Chinese goal.

Given our past track record in estimating their military achievements, it’d seem silly to say we know what they might intend in the area of overall military spending 15 years from now.

Social programs have been impt these past election cycles. However, when the truly hard choices begin facing citizens over might be afforded, what is logically afforded, and what must be jettisoned, we’ll have to wait until that time to see what gives. The nature of the unfunded liabilities attached to legacy social programs is of a fiscal nightmare scenario no mere tax increase or slashing of military spending will band-aid over.

Your generalizations came roaring into life shortly after I made my first post, Mr. Skinner, hence it being quite easy to feel I was the “Anglo Winger” in question.

As to the side issue of the thread, I tremendously respect the USMC. You won’t find a braver group of soldiers. But I would reduce the size of their ranks and return them to more of what (I think) history intends of their role…to be the supreme ‘kick the door down’ entry force into a nightmare terrain.

Our military wins the battles, but politicians lose the wars.

Skinner creating an alternate reality and revising history…standard for Byron. The Soviet Union is no more…that’s a fact. The actions of President Reagan forced the communist tyranny to an end. The US military has maintained PAX AMERICANA on Europe and allowed the rise of the social welfare states that Byron evidently admires. US military power enables the global economy and prevents world anarchy…but most importantly, the US military has given US citizens freedom. If our citizens throw our hard won freedom away by listening to fools like Skinner, then we deserve our fate.

Perhaps the banking queen barney flank should cut a trillion from Fannie and fredddie that is where the true waste is.

Byron skinner = BS

that sums it up

Good Morning Folks,

To geo g. The real problems with the Marines are they have ran out of unique mission to do and they have to much over lapping redundancy with the Army.

One of the Marines calling cards was the small quick strike, or “We go in kick down the door and others pass through”. or in short the nations 911 force. Before 9/11 that claim had some validity to it but the 2003 incursion into Afghanistan showed that Spec. Ops were far better at this mission the the USMC.

Before 9/11 the Spec Ops community was a little shy of 5,000 men and had available as light Infantry two battalions of the 75th. Infantry. After Afghanistan the DoD for more political them tactical operations reason saw a lot of unrecognized potential in Special Operations. The Spec Ops force have been increasing, current numbers and force goals are currently Classified.

This is eating into the Marines missions. Although Spec Ops soldiers cost more to train, they are more operationally capable then a Marine and there are far fewer the 180,000 peace time force level of the marines.

The Marine amphibious capability current accounts for about 25% of the Navies surface fleet. With reduction in the total hauls this percentage will become higher. Since it’s been 60 years since the last use of this capability on a battalion level or higher the value of keeping it has come into question.

The current threat assessments for the next couple of decades have no scenario where a large a amphibious operation would come into play.

Like the Air Force and air to air combat history has passed the Marines by. The Marines could consolidate the attack mission of the Air Force and the Navy and Special Operations could take up the slack on the amphibious mission.

Besides the Tactical Air support, the Navy does have use for and needs a Light Naval Infantry force that may total about 10K but the era or the Marines as a separate stand alone operational organization with in the context of current threat assessments must come into question.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

LOL..Skinner is no more privy to the real threat estimates than I can absolutely accurately pick the winner of the next Super Bowl. The Marine Corps is more important today than ever and I guess Byywrong didn’t notice the roll out of the PAKFA. Well, at least Skinner is consistent…tumbleweed.

Byron has once again shown he is at least 2 and a half decades out of touch. The Ranger Regiment(75th Infantry) expanded to 3 line battalions in 1984

Good Morning Folks,

As I suspected no one can give any evidence based logical rebuttal of why we need a Marine Corps.

If FormerDirtDart could read, he would have noticed that I was not referring to the number of battalions of the 75th. Infantry activated, but only to the number that were tasked to Special Operations.

To Insider. Assessing the threats and assigning levels is what military planners do. Though I’m not a military planner I do keep up with the trade, It would appear that you justifications for a Marine Corp is nothing but a product of you personal fantasies and imagination.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Byron, sounds like you have been reading too many of Mike Spark’s fantasies judging from your “we don’t need the Marine Corp” line of thinking.

The ability to strike from the sea is always very useful capability, all it took was the Marines offshore during the first Gulf War to tie up a great many Iraqi units. The Army is restricted to harbors and ports when transporting most of their gear by sea. And while our SF units and Rangers are very capable, they don’t have the manpower or firepower backing them that the Marine Corp has. The Marine Corp also has tradition and a proud history that is certainly worth preserving.

Byron — We seem to be in agreement however with regards to the general premise and context of changing the current ‘stand alone Marine organization’ as far as the Threat assessments go. I’m on board with the camp of thought (as a pretty controversial topic) possibly doing away with Marine fast jet as well (although, increasing other aviation capacities). The momentum gaining of ‘camp of thought’ will most likely grow considerably by FY12.

My view has assessed somewhere in the 75k-80k total force level. This would include an increased emphasis in bridging spec ops (which btw, will be reduced in size after summer 2011) and the Stryker Brigade mobilization type mission. Perhaps the unit organziation would comprise of smaller independent units such as battalion size, rather than regiment. They would train with and be increasingly interoperable with units such as Army Airborne/Assault/Rangers/10thMt and would increasingly train internationally for emergency humanitarian disaster. (cont.)

(cont.)

The organization would possibly include a number (3–4) of newly created, independent Marine Airborne battalions (2 of which on call deterrence, for 36 hr drop anywhere in world (via joint service C-17/C-130, etc) with increased follow-on QR light-infantry capability). The concept would not involve classic amphib assault doctrine, true, but would include naval fleet presence and rapid global cooperation based on aviation based amphib capabilities.

Deterrence and emergency response capabilities would actually increase under this model even with the considerable reduced force size. Budget appropriation savings to Navy would be obvious. Whether acting in part of a UN authorized crisis intervention, national emergency or natural disaster, a broader rapid response capability would highly suit the US Marines and bolster Armed Force’s overall ability to react and respond either jointly with foreign elements or with Joint US operations.

Byron, the first conventional troops into Afghanistan were 1,000 Marines flown in from the naval task force in the Indian Ocean in November 2001. You say its been 60 years since the Marines have conducted an amphibious assault. Grenada and Somalia were amphib landings, Desert Storm had a MEB-sized feint, and the last few humanitarian ops we’ve conducted required the manpower and equipment of a MEU. The Marines don’t have 180,000 troops, they have 202,000.

There are 1400 soldiers per SF Group, with 5 active duty groups=7000 troops. The 75th totals 2000 troops, and the 160th SOAR totals around 1000 troops. Out of those units we’ve added MAYBE 1000 troops since 9/11 which blows your “5000 troops” statement out of the water. By the way, my figures don’t include the Navy, Marines, and Air Force contributions to SOCOM. Those numbers aren’t classified, those are all off of public-access military websites. You have a bad tendency to cite years-old information and assumptions, and your spelling always sucks.

I think there are a lot misplaced hopes by politicians on this. They want to maintain capabilities while ignoring that the level of capabilities have direct relationship to the number of dollars we spend. They can be large or they can be elite. The politicians complain about diminished size relative to money spent, but its because with the more elite tech driven military we can do more now than they could when the military was larger. So a pure size comparison is immediately biased against the modern military.

Shrinking unneccessary parts of the beauracracy are fine but there are issue with that. This beauracracy was born out of system where by there was minimal true expansion, where to keep worthwhile personnel you had to promote them or lose them and that meant finding something for them to do and while those positions might not be necessary a large beauracracy is still needed to ensure a large enough pool to draw talent for higher positions from.

Our Founding Fathers would be shocked by the fact that we have not demobilized since the end of WW2, and the current million person force. They envisioned a ready and willing militia to defend this country, and not a standing army. As to the navy, it was to protect commerce, with the marines as just maritime troops to support ship-to-ship sniping, boarding parties and limited purpose shore missions.

If we want to get back to basics, the army and marines should be cut in half, with the bulk of the equipment resident in the National Guards. the navy can take a big hit, too, especially since the amphibious capabilities are excessive.

Taxpayer, bear in mind we conducted amphibious raids on the towns of the Barbary pirates in North Africa during Jefferson and Madison’s presidencies.

Taxpayer,

Hard to say what a F.F. from the 18th Century would say if you could go all Bewitched and bring them back from the great beyond. I would imagine that once you explained to them the history of the world since 1940, with 50+ million people dying in WW2, 10’s of thousands of warheads being pointed at us during the Cold War, etc., that they might come to understand why we did not demobilize in 1945.

They would probably have a few things to say about “entangling alliances”, however, that are partially responsible for the size of military we maintain.

TMB, I recognize that. We need some level of Marines. But 200,000 plus today? They are playing army. Where’s the kick-in-the-front-door-from-the-sea and then let the army take over strategy? If we want to keep so many Marines, we should take an offset from the Army for say 150,000 troops. Otherwise, we are duplicating capabilities. Same for SOCOM (SOF).

Good MOrning Folks,

TMB, You forgot the SEALS. My number of 5k Spec. Ops. before 9/11 come from the Special Warfare Quarterly, 2nd Qtr. 2001.

There break down had three Special Forces Groups at about 50% staffed and one was a National Guard Unit. The 160th. Army Aviation Battalion (SOAR) was assigned to the Oklahoma National Guard. Psych. Ops, Civic Affairs, Intelligence etc. and other non combat units were in the NG.

There were three SEAL Teams but numbers were not disclosed. The Navy’s Small boat units were not yet considered part of Spec. Ops.

The Air Force has a Squadron at Eglin AFB that had six AC-130 Gunships and a CSAR unit. There were other units of the squadron but there classified.

Two Ranger Battalions were not considered part of Spec. Ops but were available to be tasked to the Special Ops mission. The Marines of course were a no show insisting that ALL MARINES were Special Operation troops.

Over all Special Operations before 9/11 were in a free fall, the Army was considering letting personal in service and support apply for Special Forces and the Air Force was considering dropping the Special Operations mission and putting in the ANG.

If you disagree TBM source yourself please.

The 1,000 Marines you talk about in Afghanistan I assume were those that went into Kandahar, and occupied the air field after Army Rangers took it and secured it, am I correct?

Fortuitously this was the wrong weekend to argue for keeping the Marines Amphibious Mission. The events in Kyrgyzstan have shown how useless this uber expensive military capability is.

By the way Kyrgyzstan was on and still is on the DoD projection of problem areas of the world where the United States might have to do military intervention. The Russian Federation is only going to send in 300 troops and they are tasks with guarding Russian Federation interest. The US has been courting Kyrgyzstan and we have basing privileges/ leases that we are currently exercising in that country.

To geo g. I would think that any major reorganization of the USMC would bring it back to a Classical Naval Infantry force. We already have more then enough airborne and in fact that is a place where the Army could cut back and save some big bucks. The Stryker is to big and useless for the Marines, the Army is still trying to fine a use for Stryker with out much success. Besides there would be little or no need for armored vehicles or indirect fire support since the Marines would always operate in the shadow of the Navy.

The air ground attack manned fixed wing air mission already is a mix bag with no dominate service, and all that would be needed is reorganization of these assets under one service, logically the USN. VTOL and the MV-22 although sexy have proved to be of little value to the Marines in combat. They were billed as “game changers” they have been anything but, get rid of them.

The Marines Air Groups are a mess. To many air frames that are not in the other services and to much duplication of capabilities with the Army. Eliminate of the above. Move fixed wing into the Navy and rotary wing into the Army.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Bywrong,
If you were privy to the “real” info, then you would not be making such stupid comments on this blog. As to the USMC…I gave no justification as any school child knows that eliminating the Marine Corps would endanger national security; therefore, your “personal fantasies and imagination” comment was in character.…absurd. It’s still a free country, but you should focus your minimal intellect on the Left/Looney blogs…you will not be corrected nearly as often and many of the nihilsts/anarchists/marxists will likely agree with you.

Good Afternoon Folks,

To Insider. It appears other then personal attacks on me you have no reason why we need the marine Corp. How would not having a Marine Corp endanger our National Security?

Ideology only starts war it doesn’t fight them. I see the Antebellum wingers can’t develop any rational debate on why we need a Marine Corp, which is no surprise, after all, on all major issues of US History conservative have been on the wrong side, no different now.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

You keep saying “spec ops.” Spec Ops is slang, not a department or force structure. These forces fall under the US Special Operations Command, which includes everybody you referenced (including the Rangers) which is why I corrected you on your units and figures. The Marine assault into Afghanistan was to Camp Rhino, 100 miles from Kandahar. Can you provide a link to this Quarterly? I can’t find it through Google and I’m curious where/when/how a SOCOM unit would EVER be assigned to the National Guard. PSYOPS and Civil Affairs prior to 9/11 were almost entirely in the Army Reserve — big difference. The Marines have never been considered special operations — they just like to say that to justify not having an actual SOCOM unit — which they were forced to create around 2004.

How does civil war in a land-locked former Soviet republic have anything to do with the Marine Corps? We have no interest there except for the airbase we’re leasing, and they haven’t asked us for any help.

Byron you would have to try really, really hard to be any more wrong in your statements that you are now. The fact that you refuse to listen doesn’t make mean rational arguments haven’t been stated.

Good Evening Folks,

TBM. Special Warfare Quarterly is an in house publication of the JFK Center at Ft. Bragg. If you have the clearance you can get in I would assume.

“How does civil war in a land locked former Soviet republic have anything to do with the Marine Corps? That’s exactly my point. The US has spent hundreds of $ billions on the amphibious warfare mission since Korea and when things get hot the Marines have to sit on the side lines. The Marine Corp has become somewhat irrelevant to 21st. Century Warfare.

The Marines have a tendency not get with the program and in line with the other services, including mother Navy. Over the years their leadership both active and retired have felt it was their duty to voice their opinion regardless of current policy. While this is entertaining to the general public and makes good talk time on FOX, CNN and PBS/NPR etc. it embarrass the Corp.

One retired general officer who is a college classmate of mine. Speaking in jest I’m sure said that the best retirement party for a Marine General is a firing squad, then he would have to keep his mouth shut.

I’m not a fan of the super soldiers and I think Special Operations are being over sold and over played, the experience from Vietnam shows that there can be huge problems with this type of formation. That said the powers that be love Special Operations.

From what is visible to the public there have been no safe guards put in place to deal with this problem. Special Operations and the CIA are often visually indistinguishable from each other.

The problem is that Special Operations and the CIA seem to find each other and end up doing things on their own with out prior approval from the civilian leadership as happened with the 5th. Group in Vietnam.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

You’re missing the psyche element attributed to the US Marines though, which is a legitimate instrument of deterrence in intself. 75k-80k total force is sound, albeit removing fast jet elements but increasing rotary and light aviation capability (both in med transport, very heavy lift, attack and light armed recon/ISR). Marines are valid QR component and best capable for ‘show of demonstration’, to be forward deployed and at sea in future (plus ready alert/strategic airborne components/battalions state side), with Army deployed state side.

In your 18th century ‘classical’ naval infantry example, that was the premiere elite capability at the time for reacting and deploying (for good or bad) — in a highly mobilized fashion — in relative terms to 18th century. Now fast forward to tomorrow and given the same ‘relative comparison’ as in said 18th century, tomorrow’s Marines should be organized and mated to the most rapid means of deployment and in a doctrine maximizing the best technological/organizational means to achieve that role. (cont.)

For example, maximal rotary based deployment means from sea (personally not a fan of MV-22 system either), and global lift means from ground bases. Both equal in terms of said classical naval infantry’s capacity, relative to 18th century means and psyche attributed to that capability.

Thus the rapid deployment ready, crack force psyche and high mobility/prepared Marines (in joint op with elite Army elements — let’s get back to calling such elements elite and not special ops) is a psychological asset alone as part of the total future composition. Yes things are going to change, due to budgets, doctrine and post-conflict demobilization, but said 75k+ force structure would arguably be around the best and effective structure (not too small, but not too big) while maintaining maximal capability given the hard compromises to come. (p.s., I actually wasn’t implying USMC Stryker units, sorry for confusion, I meant Army Stryker force doctrine).

So in conclusion, US Marines will need to adapt to the circumstances at hand and restructure into a more readily capable to respond, highly mobile, lighter (albeit more robust via better equipped for short term autonomous operations)… as a deterrence and capability offset to the overall reduction in force size and certain other capabilities. Gaining other capabilities as this asymmetrical offset would accomplish that.

Now if you want to argue from the primary position that the US military has too much capability as it is and would still have too much perceived capability (?) thus requiring a less threatening reinvention of itself, via major downsizing and disarming, etc, to achieve better perceived parity with others, then clarify that for disclosure and we could then discuss that aspect in more open terms and from a different angle.

Good Afternoon Folks,

To geo g. I really don’t find much in disagreement with you assessment. Traditionally the marines have deployed and fought in Company size or smaller units or small often with a Lieutenant in command. There we the day before the current rifle company of about a 150–200 Marines, back then the Company was about 40–50 men with two officers.

These missions that I would think these formations would be needed for are reenforcing embassy guards or rescuing embassy staffs, recovering US assets that have been take by a hostile country, removing American or friendlies from a threatening environment etc. The Boxer Rebellion is I guess the classic example of the historical use of American Naval Infantry, this is what the Marines have historically been good at.

The Pyracy mission and ship boarding are not for the Marines, it’s a law enforcement function mostly and is the job of the USCG. Marines are not Law enforcement officers the USCG is.

If the Pyrates moved hostages/captives off the water and on shore then by all means call in the Marines.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

I would agree there is lots of room for greater efficiency in the DOD acquisition process. There are too many programs that spend millions of dollars a year but never develop a system that makes it to the field. At least the F-22 and F-35 work and are in production. There are many more programs that the DOD has sunk millions of dollars into and still have nothing to show for it. The way to fix this is to hold people accountable at every level. However, in order for this to happen, the politicians need to lead the fight for fiscal accountability, bit they won’t because they are the biggest catalyst for putting dollars into defense contractor’s coffers. I have personally worked on several programs where the military desired to end a contract for a system because of lack performance or change in requirements, but termination was slowed down by political considerations.

As soon as the military informs a defense contractor that they are considering contract termination for convenience or cause, you can be confident that the contractors’ first call is to their congressional representative. The next step is for congressional staffers to get involved, and it goes down hill from there. What should have been a military decision quickly becomes a political one. In my case, the military did end the contracts, but it was painful and required a lot of folks to stand strong under tremendous pressure. In others words, it would have been a lot easier to let the contract run its course, and I would argue that in many cases where leadership may be weak or they don’t have the resources in time and personnel to fight the system, many avoid the fight all together and just let contracts continue even though no one believes the end product will meet the need.

Hear ye!! hear ye!! It is time to present the budget and the taxes we collect from the people in a true light. Money going to Social Security reciperients and its associated programs are paid for by FICA taxes, Money going to medicare and medicaid programs comes from the Medicare tax we pay, the money we pay for roads and bridges comes form the gasoline, tires, battery special taxes, and the general tax fund that we pay into on our 1040 forms goes to pay for the pentagon budget. If we separate out the tax receipts and budget outlays for these separate taxes and programs you will see that the funds received for the pentagon beast is not enough to pay for the massive pentagon programs, including the obligations to pay for retirements, VA hospitals, huge infrastruture of bases and thousands of pentagon offices spread around the world. We need to stop comparing the spending of moeny on the “social” Chrisitian programs to the the taxes we collect to pay for defense.

The pentagon is bloated and Mr Gates and the current administration is on track but so far they are not moving forward with their plans because of greed by those who receive the defense money. We need to turn this around and put more general funds into our economy and stop pouring tax money into military power points, meetings, conferneces, support staff, etc Good luck America!!!!

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