The Great Engine War Is Over

The Great Engine War Is Over

If the value of the engine contracts for the Joint Strike Fighter ever equals the number of words offered in defense of the three companies and the concept of competition America will never be able to afford another weapon. But with the prospect of declining acquisition budgets and the pressures on the F-35 program, there is little doubt everyone will struggle until the issue is decided — for this budget cycle at least. The commentary by former F-16 pilot Robert Newton we ran a few days ago thrilled the partisans of a second engine. Congressional aides circulated it. Companies spread it far and wide. Now, inevitably, a Pratt & Whitney partisan, John Michael Loh, has penned a rebuttal. We are proud to sponsor the debate — and to stir the pot.

Former F-16 fighter pilot, Robert Newton’s piece on DoDBuzz about the desire to have an extra engine for the F-35 is a classic example of old fighter pilots’ tendency to fight the last war.  But the one and only great engine war is over, and refighting it now will only cost taxpayer dollars we don’t have. He claims to speak for himself and other F-16 pilots that, together, agree the alternative engine is essential. He also claims the F-16 is the parent of the F-35 inferring that the F-35 then needs an alternate engine.  Not so.  The F-22 is the parent of the F-35.  And the F-35’s F135 engine is a direct descendant of the highly successful F119 engine in the F-22, not the F100 engine.  Thus, Mr. Newton’s argument is fundamentally flawed from the start.

The arguments set forth are more nostalgic than logical.  Newton cites early F-16 problems with compressor stalls and afterburner blow-outs.  These problems were in the F-15’s F100 engine and in the first few lots of the F-16A in the late 70s.  They were fixed well before the engine competition that occurred later in the 80s.  The real reason for the F100 engine competition was the extreme arrogance and unresponsiveness of the engine builder at that time. Costs were increasing and engine maintenance problems were ignored.  The Air Force decided that a competition was the only way to fix that situation. No other military aircraft since then has been procured with an extra engine.  There is no alternate engine for the F-22, V-22, T-6, or the F/A-18E/F, all developed after the F-16.


None of the issues above are present in today’s F-35 and F135 program.  The F135 is experiencing none of the problems the early F100 suffered.  On the contrary, the Air Force began development of the F119 engine well before the start of the F-22 program and, unlike the history of the F100, contemplated a single engine application.  The result is the most successful engine development and production program in history.  The F135’s pedigree is impeccable.  It represents two generations of engines beyond the early F100s of Newton’s experience with three times its reliability. There is no reason to expect a catastrophic failure in this program, and the current contractor team is highly responsive and responsible

Moreover, all the real reasons for not having an alternate engine do apply.  Let me mention just a few.

The alternate engine will never produce an economic advantage.  Even under most favorable assumptions, analyses show no payback for the development, production and logistic support for a second engine.  Extra engine supporters like to point to a GAO report which claims that savings of up to $20 billion are possible with an alternate in place.  They neglect to mention, however, a carefully worded caveat that says “results are dependent on how the government decides to run the competition, the number of aircraft that are ultimately purchased, and the exact ratio of engines awarded to each contractor.”  There is a difference between possible and probable that, in my experience, allows a wedge of alibis and loopholes you could drive a Mack truck through.

Safety will be compromised.  When the alternate engine is introduced in 2017, the F-35 will be in high rate production.  In my experience, putting a new and unproven engine on a single-engine fighter in high rate production will result in many unnecessary, and perhaps fatal, accidents while the new engine works its way through its inevitable infant mortality phase.

Operating and maintaining two engines for the same fighter greatly complicates operations and logistics support, and compromises basing and employment decisions.  It restricts decisions on basing because all F-35s at a base have to have the same engine; and, it limits basing choices for overseas deployments for the same reason.

Two engines require two maintenance training programs, two sets of intermediate maintenance facilities, two supply chains, and two depot maintenance infrastructures.  All unnecessary and too costly in today’s budget environment.             The small fleet sizes of the Navy and Marine Corps buy of F-35’s rule out application for a second engine.  It just makes no sense for these small fleets and shipborne operations.

These arguments easily outweigh those who want a repeat of the great engine war just for old time’s sake.  These are different times and the situation is altogether different.  The fighter pilots in today’s Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps rightly reject the need for an alternate engine.  They know it’s wasteful and, if continued, will reduce significantly the number of F-35s each service will field.

John Michael  Loh is a former fighter pilot, Air Force vice chief of staff and commander of Air Combat Command.  He consults for several defense companies including Pratt & Whitney.

Join the Conversation

Hi Mike,

Interesting. Lets focus on customer service. Lets say– Saudi Arabia. When PW didn’t address customer service concerns about engine maintenance issues on their F-15s, Saudis listened to the advice of another retired USAF general in that GE would offer better service. Done deal. They replaced all their PW motors with GE ones.

The idea that the F-35 may only need one engine vendor is sound when you consider acquisition and sustainment costs on the aircraft has blown out so much we may only see it in a few hundred and not a few thousand.

Funny how Gates and others get all upset about two engine vendors for what is hyped to be a several thousand jet production run ( where have we heard that before?) yet this crew doesn’t have a problem with wasting tens of billions of taxpayer dollars on hundreds of LRIP mistake jets because flight testing is so far behind and what is being built hasn’t been verified by flight test to any worthy level at this time.

Also Mike, tell all of us what is in the JSF MOU (updated again in December 2009).
I will tell you. It states that either motor vendor can be picked by the JSF partner nation. This has been briefed from when the program started up until present day. Funny that. If all this is so important, why didn’t Gates have the MOU changed back in Dec 2009?

Great spin at trying to distance the F135 motor from “legacy motors”. Even more funny is that some of the tech in the F119, F135 motors that is hyped as being new wave is in new build PW and GE motors for new F-15s and F-16s.

You tell us that you have something better than Gone With the Wind and Star Wars but the logistics support record is Howard the Duck and Ishtar and you say “trust us”.

Two vendors if this pig is ever going to see the thousands everyone claims. But I am with you for the reality. One engine vendor is good enough. We will only see a few hundred Joint Strike Failures because we are dead broke. The words “affordability” were penned since the start of the program until today. There is at this time, no proof that the F-35 will ever be affordable. And for the USAF, we gave up F-22 production for this? What a joke.

The F100-PW-229 and F100-PW-232 are those variants incorporating some technology from the F119 and F135? They are both huge improvements over previous F100 variants, I don’t see what your argument is on that point.

Don’t write off the F-35 yet, there is no reason the aircraft shouldn’t be affordable if you look at the design itself.

Eric — Why not look at a more recent example, like Korea, when you are referencing customer service. I believe they recently made the switch from GE to P&W in their F-15s.

The point being is that the vendor wants you to believe only they have the one solution to motor value. Not matter what the vendor, don’t believe it.

More of the good generals thoughts:

“Safety will be compromised. When the alternate engine is introduced in 2017, the F-35 will be in high rate production. In my experience, putting a new and unproven engine on a single-engine fighter in high rate production will result in many unnecessary, and perhaps fatal, accidents while the new engine works its way through its inevitable infant mortality phase.”

Again, claims that are made by the vendor are always good in the vendors eyes. Claims made by lets say… the GAO… are only good in the venors eyes, if those claims agree with the vendor.

“It restricts decisions on basing because all F-35s at a base have to have the same engine; and, it limits basing choices for overseas deployments for the same reason.”

This is very true with the F-16. IF F-35s are built in the thousands and IF there is an alternate motor, one would have to point back to the intentions of the whole Joint Strike Fighter Ponzi scheme as being one more lie to the taxpayer. Remember your DOD contracts and other documents (from the JSF PO even, and LM) that interchangeable engines adds vaule to the program in that both motors were to be true plug and play with any jet. (unlike the F-16 with the big-mouth-small mouth etc). DOD, JSF P.O. and LM state that all this adds value. Surprise. PW tells us that the JSF program is lying to us. I’m shocked. Makes one wonder why a prime contractor would want their motor provider pulling the legs out from under them in F-35 sales briefs to partner nations.

ELP, To start a discussion with such mis-information…

When you have a monopoly engine provider and Bill both saying that a single engine is good enough and that they wont use it to gouge higher profits — you know a second engine just makes sense.

There is some eveidence that a sole-source producer like LM and the P&W engine manufacturer will price the F-35 along that declining unit cost curve. LM has, smartly, done so for the first few LRIPs. But that high-on-the-curve to downward pricing is nowhere near what it should be — say, 40% less than its predecessor (on a constant dollar basis). F-35 was made as a point-assmbly aircraft and the Pentagon is already being gouged on development costs (think — mile long assembly plant in Ft Worth) and recurring manufacturing/assembly unit costs. Once the threat of a second engine — let alone a second, say foreign manufacturer, is gone — LM will return to the typical defense contractor pricing strategy and stop someplace along that downward curve where THEY, not the U.S. government and its partner nations, will maximize profits. If for no other reason than to force prices down, spending $3 billion to keep LM honest to save $20 billion overall is a good deal. Sometimes, its the only way the taxpayer gets a fair shake.

On second thought, IF we’re going to have a sole source, then let’s do what we did in the 1980’s and have a negotiated aircraft price That means, whatever LM bids for that LRIP or Full Rate Production (FRP) lot, the government does its own analysis, and prices it down another 10 to 15%, accepting the adjusted bid. After all, as a monopsony, the government (re: taxpayers) we should be able to look at all the costs and profits and set a reasonable price that maximizes our benefit.

On the quanitity of F-35s and F-22s ordered. Won’t this be reevaulated once the Russians and Chinese start producing and putting into service their 5th generation fighters? When the F15s, F-16s, and F-18s can no longer match the Chinese and Russian fighters then more than 187 F-22s seem likely to be produced for the USAF with a new President and Administration in office. Same for the F-35. In my opnion.

Which part? The part about having a single vendor being risky? Do you have some different info on why the Saudis dumped PW for GE for their F-15s? And no I do not advocate giving GE a free pass on their advertising. Something they don’t mention is that no matter if it is a PW or GE motor, many of the engine appliances for the STOVL jet are GE made.

Why did the Korean’s dump GE and go back to P&W just recently? What’s your point? The P&W ENGINE itself is almost completely P&W save for the 3BSM (RP & LF being part of the propulsion system). The GE engine has a RR Fan/Combustor and LPT and a P&W Aug/Noz.. Oh, and the MOU could be changed at any time, it’s not something written in stone, if the GE engine is dropped the document or MOU could be changed at any time. It doesn’t mean it’s a requirement for them to sell either one. Also if that partner nation (say Britain) wants to foot the bill to continue GE’s development then let them do it.

I sure hope so in the case of the F-22, like add 500+ more, and cut F-35 numbers accordingly, if you have to live with the same budget. If were up to me, I’d scrap the F-35 except for the Marines and do a joint venture with Saab for the Gripen NG (4.5 Gen) and add advanced US avionics to them for our bomb trucks. We’d get 5 for the price of 2, and have a aircraft that can land on any 800 meter strip of highway with super cruise, which can be used of Carriers. The maintenance would be 1/3 as much as the F-35 and we get a lot more true fighter planes with the Gripen NG. Stealth is nice till your trying to turn against a SU-35 with a plane (F-35) that can’t take the G’s no matter what engine it has in it.. We’d get more bang for the buck. Just my opinion.

Sounds good. Tell that to the U.K. (the largest foreign partner) and see what happens.

We should get out of the sandbox’s and stop trying to resolve another country’s civil wars. Those people have been at each others throats for years. It would save us a lot of money and lives if we just let them kill each other. Once they do that we go in and take the oil(which is why we are their). One more thing, why the f*&* are we so worried about roe’s. Let the spec ops have free reign of Afghanistan like it was when the war first started. Hunt bin laden down. Drag him behind a humvee, hang him upside down(Italy WWII) and let the dogs have at him.F787 that whole trial by jury. The F^-cface doesn’t deserve it.

Stopping the GE/RR engine will generate enormous public pressure in UK to reduce F35 buys…which increases overall cost for everyone else.

Retired Gen Loh must have forgot all of the accident investigation “Out Briefs” he sat in on for the P&W F16 and F15 Class’A’s. Gen Loh seems to forget there are many of us who use to be on his staff at HQ/ACC in the 1990’s that recall his rant and rave against P&W and how he was very happy his GE engines were performing well and that he had F16’s with GE engines in them. Gen Loh seems to have selectively forgot that he was a major part in making all F16’s in PACAF and USAFE F110 GE powered because of the reliability, maintainability and safety issues of the F100 P&W engines. Still to this day, all of the F16’s in PACAF and USAFE are GE powered. Gen Loh, you have really disappointed many of your ex-staff from the HQ ACC days. I guess the P&W checks have cleared your mind for what you believed in when you were the HQ ACC/CC.

Now, lets get back to the F135 and F136 engines. First off, the current F135 in so called LRIP is NOT the engine the customer will get. Yes, the F135 is having some major changes made to meet STOVL requirements which will introduce a different build of materials (BOM) and technical data. This redesign is happening under the Component Improvement Program (CIP) which goes un-noticed because it’s a different pot of money from the F35 development pot. Therefore, P&W will have two different F135 engines for the CV, CTOL and STOVL. P&W is already 2.5B over budget and they have 10’s of millions in CIP budget to redesign the current F135.

The current F135 is having cooling issues which require some cold and hot section major rotating hardware to be redesigned. The tax payer has already paid over 300M in F135 engines that will not be capable for end state operations because the engine is going thru redesign. So, we the tax payer will have another huge bill to pay P&W to “modifiy” ALL the LRIP engines they produce which will be close to a 1B dollars when its all said and done. Tech data, task analysis, on and off board diagnostics systems, support equipment, supply chain systems, training and unit/depot maintenance planning will all need to be updated/changed to accommodate the redesign that P&W is currently going thru in CIP for the F135 engine.

The General talks about the F119, don’t get too excited General. The F119 is having its fair share of issues, we just have not had a Class A yet. Take a look at the Millions in CIP for the F119, its going thru a 2K TAC inspection on a few engines today and there is evidence of premature deterioration. Oh, did I forget it has not even seen any combat yet…so, who knows what else will go wrong when these engines REALLY get tested under a REAL war scenario. Let’s not forget, the F135 is a derivative of the F119 and both of these engines are requiring CIP tax payer dollars to fix. It would be the worst mistake in US Aviation history for the USG to NOT have an alternate engine and to power the F22 and F35 with basically the same exact engine. If there is ONE major fracture critical hardware issue, both the F22 and F35 will suffer….. yep, and we retired all of our other fighters….good luck with that. I see the F119 and F135 following similar paths from development to operational status just like the F100 family of engines…hold on to your hats Tax Payers!!!!!!!

I’ve talked to the guys who work on maintaining the F-22 and they haven’t mentioned anything about engine problems.

There were always going to be some slight differences in the engine variants, hence the different designations. Some STOVL related components may need a redesign, but the engine itself on the F135-PW-600 should be the same.

ELP seems unware that almost EVERY military aircraft has only had one choice of engine and it wasn’t the end of the world. Many engines have even powered multiple TYPES of aircraft. Take the J79 for instance. It powered nearly 8000 F-4s and F-104s over the years. And who used the F-4? Let’s see, the USAF, USMC, USN, NATO… There’s a reason that the GE fans always point to the F100 example: it’s the only one they have.

Ah yes, two good ol’ J79s smoking their way across the skies of Vietnam wrapped in a Phantom and providing many a near sighted triple-A gunner the opportunity he’d been waiting for. How many flight crews did we loose before GE actually developed a smokeless burner system AND the using services installed them.

Well apparently the sky didn’t fall because nobody demanded the J-79 be replaced by a new type just because it was smokey. Last I checked F-4s are still flying with J79s. Funny how they didn’t DEMAND every new military aircraft afer to have a choice of multiple engines now isn’t it? Wonder why that is?

Yea keep it up Formula, just remember who’s paving the way for STOVL development! That’s right P&W & RR! Not your precious GE, you shill!

And where’s your GE engine?? Still sitting with under a thousand hrs worth of testing…yea keep up the misinformation campaign!

formula,

Gen Loh isn’t forgetting anything.

EVERYBODY knows about the problems with the early F100. YOU are forgetting that the problems were eventually fixed (delayed by disagreement between P&W and the USAF) & that current F100s are as or more reliable than currnet F110s while offering similar thrust at lower weight. It is disengenous at best to ignor that AND that unlike the early F100, the F135 is based on an already proven design & is meeting or exceeding performance requirements.

The reason why all USAF F-16 are GE powered is because the so-called ‘competition’ was in fact NOT a competition. The number of engines was split evenly between P&W and GE and with ALL USAF F-15s & early Block F-16s having P&W meant by default that all remaining USAF F-16s would be GE powered (1st delivered in 1986) in order to even out the numbers.

YOU also forget about the problems GE engines have had…INCLUDING the F136!

F136 on schedule and on budget. I’m guessing Steve you can’t say the same for the F135.

The F-4 was not the backbone of military fighter aviation that the F-35 promises to be. This plane will be the primary fighter aircraft for all three services. I certainly hope that the F135 turns out to the good choice, because we’re not going to be getting a second chance on this one sferrin!

“the F135 is based on an already proven design & is meeting or exceeding performance requirements”.

Really? That’s quite a statement considering that flight testing has just really started in 2010, and may I point out that flying the engine in the aircraft is quite a bit different then running it strapped to a test bench.

Perhaps this is a good time to refer to a statement made about the F135 after one of the several engine failures that have occurred to date:

“Latest word is that they are awaiting a proof test of the F135 engine because the power plant experienced a third stage low pressure turbine blade cracking on the test stand in October. They will proof test the FTE-3 engine and if it passes—which they expect it to—flight testing will resume before thanks giving using this engine. The F135 engine runs the highest turbine inlet temperature of any jet engine in the history of aviation—a whopping 3600 degrees where most fighter engines operate in the 2600 to 2800 degrees range”.

The point to remember is that this is a very exotic engine, with virtually no track record flying in the fighter that it was designed for. Any statement to the effect that this is a proven engine, is pure marketing hype.

One of the persistent problems with the Phantom was that it tended to leave a rather prominent trail of sooty black smoke behind it, making it more readily visible to an enemy. In order to correct this problem, the F-4S was fitted with smokeless J79-GE-10B engines with low smoke combustors and low-energy ignition. This same engine was also fitted to some F-4Js. F-4S was the designation applied to 265 (some sources say 248) F-4Js which were upgraded in the mid-1970s. By the mid-1970’s the only F-4 aircraft still in Vietnam were ‘owned’ by Charlie!

The bottom line is it’s still coming along, they’re still testing on ground and in flight. The P&W engine is far and away further ahead of the competition. P&W and RR are plowing the road for STOVL development.

I worked on the early F-14A’s with P&W engines and they were considered flight regime restrictive
until they were replaced with the GE engines in the F-14B and F-14D. The problems encountered
with the F-14A is a direct result of the failure of the F-111B program and the engines developed for it.
No new engine is perfect and no one engine manufacturer will get everything right, by risk reduction
definition, a second engine was stated in the RFP for the F-35 program. Now P&W is hoping to squash
the competition before it gets started to secure their millions in profits. Congress is correct to fund a
second engine in teh event the P&W engines prove to have serious problems in combat operations.

Have you taken a look in the past decade at the official USAF Safety Center metrics? Very enlightening.……with GE mishap rates much higher than PW. Perhaps you should try to stay abreast of current information. BTW.…I hope GE is paying you well.

The TF30 was also never intended to power more than the first batch of Tomcats, if development of the F401-PW-400 had continued I am sure it would have matured into a reliable powerplant like later F100s. Yet the Navy was having a difficult enough time keeping the Tomcat program alive without the development of a new engine.

What, exactly, are you trying to prove? “The F119 engine has not seen combat yet”.….….inferring that the GE/RR test specimen has? And of course CIP is being used on the F135. That is exactly how all engines are matured. Are you insinuating that the GE/RR engine won’t be using CIP?? Rediculous. I am not sure what your background is, but you clearly know little about the engine industry or the government process for fielding and maturing high technology systems.

@TRG The GE engine isn’t even flying, for all intense and purposes it’s a paper engine. The P&W engine is flying.

“The F-4 was not the backbone of military fighter aviation that the F-35 promises to be.”

You’re joking right? Now throw the F-104 in the mix (it was also J79 powered). Between the two they made up a *significant* portion of USAF, USN, USMC, NATO and other allies’ fighter forces at one time.

The comparison is flawed. The TF-30 was initially only suppose to be an interim engine for the initial aircraft. It was never meant to be the engine for the Tomcat but it was available so… You can’t put P&W at fault for the USN sticking an engine in an aircraft and having it flown in conditions it wasn’t designed for. And look at the portion of Congress fighting for the F136. That’s right, those who stand to gain votes by bringing work to their districts. It’s not because they think it best, it’s about pandering to their base. There is no need for the F136. If there was the Europeans would be willing to fund it. They aren’t. Gee, wonder why.

A point of clarification here, the GE engine is being developed in collaboration with Rolls-Royce and almost certainly if the UK makes the mistake of buying the Bunter, then politcal considerations in this country will force the MOD to buy the F-136 rather than buying a foreign engine in a British built aircraft. As under current plans the UK will be manufacturing the 70 odd Bunters in this Country (instead of the original order of 150).

The “mistake of buying the Bunter”?

Steve,
As I recall, the STOVL ducted thrust right behind the pilot that gives it its vertical lift capability is Rolls Royce developed, not P&W.

I said P&W and RR, re-read what I wrote. Who do you think tests these systems anyway??

Chris,
It’s the other way around. ROKAF F-15’s have GE’s –129 to be exact. Their F-16’s are using F100-PW-229’s.

RSF,

The F135 is based on the F119.

P&W has already delivered PRODUCTION lot F135s.

Chris is correct.

ROKAF has been ‘lees than pleased’ with GE service so it latest & future F-15 use F100-PW-229s.

Which could actually mean something if the F-4 had an MOU that stated that the customer could choose engine types.

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